Criticism

[typhoonboy]

I read the forums very regularly and the most common posts I see are someone being chastised for paying for a type rating, wanting to be a pilot or asking for advice. It seems these forums aren't a place to go for anyone who can't get advice.

I agree pay to fly schemes are immoral and ruining the industry but I understand why people go down that route. If you get told before you dart training that there will be jobs when you finish and all the predictions say there will be a pilot shortage in a year, but it all turns out to be false,, what do you do? Say oh well and go and get an office job? Or do you go and pay another £X thousand to get a job. Every airline job at the moment requires a type rating, thousands of hours total time and 500 hours minimum on type.

It's very easy when you have a job that other people are dreaming about to tell the dreamers they should give up. I know everyone should go and get an instructors job or find a new route to an airline but there are far too many to do that.

Now I want to ask the criticisers what they expect people to do? The airlines are taking advantage of young pilots and it is up to the industry to stop it from the inside, however I feel that this is how aviation will be from here on in. Only time will tell.

[717tech]

Well the issue is that going out there and flying in GA really is the only other option to P2F. I personally wouldn't give a P2F pilot the time of day. Yes there are a lot of pilots trying to score their first job, but the longer you put it off, the longer it will take.

Enjoy the journey, flying a big shiny jet isn't the be all end all!

[Halfbaked_Boy]

717tech,

What about a P2F pilot who wasn't born a P2F pilot, or in other words, it's clearly not in their nature?

I.e. a G.A. pilot through and through, who finally surrendered?

This isn't me, just curious and it's a serious question.

Cheers.

[KAG]

typhoonboy I hear you however seing so many youg individuals looking for short cuts is ennoying after a while and I don't post here anymore for this reason.

Most of you guys want to land a jet job as soon as possible without respect to aviation.

Your dream should be to fly a C172 (or the like) and be paid for that. Everything above is only a bonus: you are not "more" pilot because you change airplane. Instead you spend huge amount of money in useless CPLs (with ATPL written, wow! Impressed!). A basic CPL shouldn't cost that much, so you won't be that desperate to find a job that doesn't match your level of experience.

Most young people here make me think of a young woman who asks to marry you at the veru beginning of the first date.
Step by step. Maybe you won't like it, who knows. Learn your job from the biginning, respect your career and aviation. Respect your wallet.

Personaly I am completely fed up to hear desperate questions about how to get an Airbus or Boeing job immediately. I eventually landed one, but never asked how to get one, my only question I asked around was how to land my first (paid) job, which ever it is, whatever the airplane, wherever, and I got my answer. And most of the people asking this kind of question around them (not only on pprune...) usually get an answer. People now want glory only (if there is any). No need to give advices I was not even seeking myself when a bit younger. Many experienced pilots on pprune feel the same way and don't post here anymore.

[Journey Man]

Typhoonboy

I suspect it depends on your perspective. Having read PPRuNe for eleven years now, I've seen the same scenarios played out over and over again. Often, someone comes on asking for advice, doesn't like the answer they get as it's invariably one urging caution; then they plow on regardless.

A few months ago I was asked by a colleague to meet up with someone considering flight training and give them advice. I ran them through all the options and advised they hold off until they see 'some' movement in the market; and target airline sponsored schemes only; and to think long and hard about where they want to be financially in twenty years time as long term salaries are not looking clever any more. Their training was to be paid for by a bank loan guaranteed against the parent's house.

They're now in training. I can't see the logic in that at all. You'll come out the other end into a dreadful market with a ticking click round your neck; not enough raw flying experience to prevent massive skills erosion on a monthly basis and each month hordes of fresher, newly minted pilots will be above you in the pecking order

Type ratings. Why? Why, why, why? No airline can afford to take inexperienced applicants who have completed an SSTR as it represents a lost revenue stream for the company. That's the harsh reality that has been created. How can an airline afford to pass up on £10-15k profit on each willing future employee?

Those who've trodden this path to the airlines should be fighting the rot, however don't hold you're breath. Those in airlines should be fighting the rot for the guys plugging away in TPs waiting for their break without eroding the t&c of all and sundry. Those contemplating a speculative SSTR should wake up. It's up to the aspirants to say "enough" to the rot. Don't hold your breath.

[717tech]

Well said KAG.

halfbaked_boy, I don't think that's even possible? Don't you either go the way of GA or P2F?

Why are people in such a hurry to fly the shiny jet? And even more frustrating, the fact they will pay the company for the privelage of flying said jet.

People come on here asking for advise about how to get a seat in one, but when the response isn't in their favour, they ignore it. Only to come back later and complain about their decision.

I don't have an interest in flying the shiny jets, I became a pilot to actually fly planes. My current turbo prop job allows me to do this, but in all seriousness, I wouldn't hesitate to go back and fly king airs tomorrow!

Enjoy the journey, don't take the short cut!!!

[PURPLE PITOT]

How dare you. What would you lot know, despite years of experience. I have read the shiney brochures, and the man said there was a shortage and i would be snapped up.

I have persuaded my parents to remortgage the house, and ruined their pension for my dream. It's my dream, i deserve it. I am owed the right seat of an airbus, a shiney uniform and a porsche.:}

[typhoonboy]

I am not a p2f pilot, I'm a "I'll take any job anywhere in the world" pilot. But even the little jobs aren't there, there's nowhere to start it seems but I'm patient and I will wait it out until I renew my IR a few times. Hopefully I'll get the lucky break! I do think you set out from early on saying you'll either buy a type rating, go on a p2f scheme or you'll wait and see what you can do with your own effort and hard work. Paying your way in seems wrong to me still but more and more people do it.

[portos8]

Hold on, it sounds as if there are 2 ways to get employed. P2F or GA. But with P2F YOU pay, and don't get paid. Then after finishing your 500 hours you will be back on the street. 500 hours being a Flap Operator. I like to hear from captains that work with " kids of the magenta line " if they actually give any training to them or whether it is a single pilot operation all the way? Gear up, flaps up, shut up!
There is no substitute for experience;)

[RichardH]

The whole learning point to your post is "Caveat Emptor".

You must learn to do THOROUGH due diligence of both the FTO and the REALISTIC prospects, then less Wannabes will fall for the marketing b...s. The last person to believe is the guy with the shiny brochure with the "pilot shortage" spin.

This is something they don't teach in schools along with financial education. Too many people want an instant "solution" without the underpinning knowledge & graft.

I have said a number of times on this forum the last pilot shortage was back in 1940, get used to it.

Regretfully the days of proper sponsorship are gone and unless EVERYBODY stops paying for their ratings and line training then this whole mess is just going to continue. Rightly or wrongly people are prepared to pay big money in search of their dream.

[gorter]

Yes i used to have 200 hours once. So I know how it feels to want that first commercial job (it took me nearly 6 years). However the world economy is in the toilet. I no longer have sympathy for people who can't get a job. We've been in a European (and most readers on here are European) recession for 5 years. Those that read wee weasley welshman's post back in the day were warned. Those that started flying training in the last 5 years either did no due diligence or went ahead anyway. I'm sorry guys but 95% of you will never get a paid job.

Those reading this that haven't started commercial flying training, don't!! Get yourself a good degree or apprenticeship or other profession, earn a killing and buy a share in a Pitts. Don't say you weren't warned!

[POS_INT]

Intresting debate chaps!!

Sorry I may have to just set the record straight on a few things here :ok:

Firstly the op is making it sound like you can just "go out" and buy line training, this is not the case. it is not readily available any longer and no airline will let you touch there aircraft unless they are 110% satisfied your of good order.

Secondly from my knowledge no new CPL walks in to any jet or TP jobs until they have a lot of experince flying smaller planes in some capacity.

buying a SSTR is a very bad choice if you dont have a job lined up, when you make the transiation from a C172 to a medium transport category jet your asking for all kinds of problems, and to add to this once you have your TR you still know nothing about the aircraft, and I make no appoligy for being so frank.

training on small aircrafts and learning about aviation is a life long skill but its a real lotto and luck that will land you any kind of career.

Genuine fact for you guys, I keep in contact with most of my old fellow trainee's!! from about 20 pilots I have met going through the training phases I am the only one with a job.

everyone has worked hard, studied hard etc so why am I here and they are not? combination of luck, and making the right impression with the right people and having the correct attitude towards life.

as I said before...a CPL is a lotto ticket, lots of people buy them, only a few ever win :suspect:

[joseph500s]

People who pay for type ratings orworse pay an airline to let them fly their jet are single handed killingaviation. Before we know it airlines will wake up and realise there are idiotpilots who will pay the airline instead of airlines paying the pilot. How arethe rest of us meant to pay bills then? At the end of the day we still needmoney and can’t just live on the flight deck.

If you are a decent pilot airlines willwant you to work for them and pay for your rating themselves instead of themgrossly inexperienced pilots thinking they deserve an airline job straight outof school with only 200 hours experience thinking instructing or charter isbeneath them or wont impress their friends enough. :rolleyes:
Forgivethe grammar, my computer seems to run words together on Pprune after the post