Nuclear Tests

[ORAC]

Relates to the threads reference Canberra/Valiant etc

I bet none of them went through what this guy did.From the latest issue of Smithsonian Air & Space (http://www.airspacemag.com). Sorry for copying, but hopefully it will persuade a few to sign up for a subscription.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/jvoc/SCN_0031_zpsfc3f9fcd.jpg


http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/jvoc/SCN_0032_zps88e8e0d4.jpg

Link to the online article. (http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/Nuke-the-Pilot-187488231.html?device=iphone)

[Pontius Navigator]

I recall the story of another pilot, maybe the same one, who was involved with 21 tests.

[Onceapilot]

Very brave, if this was voluntary. Strange, flying to "one-tenth of a second accuracy" and the weapon might be 45seconds early!?

OAP

[AtomKraft]

This guy must have balls of (probably radioactive) steel.

Respect. :ok:

[NutLoose]

A late old family friend was stationed on the islands during the tests, he was telling me they were issued goggles and told to face away, he said he could see the skeletons of all of those in the rows behind him, after the blast he said what perturbed him most was the fact that the toothpaste in the NAAFI shop had all burst their caps and squirted everywhere, he said they also noticed all the land crabs that used to scoot at the signs of movement would walk into people having been blinded by the blast, similarly the NAAFI cats were blinded as well.

Still a lot better than the way we treated the Aboriginies.

[dragartist]

I have just finished reading a great book on the subject. Operation Grapple. Think it came from Pen and Sword. Lent it out can't remember who too. probablly never get it back.

[RedhillPhil]

"Whether the overexposure contributed to the life-threatening Melanoma I developed seven months later, I'll never know".

I think that's a given - shirley?

[VinRouge]

Well worth a look at the Castle Bravo shot that killed a few Japanese fishermen; the bang was significantly more efficient than expected.

Be interesting to see if the v bombers could have escaped the blast after lofting their thermonuclear loads; can't imagine the v bomber was the most manoeuvrable post loft.

[MAINJAFAD]

OnceaPilot

The H-bomb test he is referring to was most likely Redwing Cherokee, the first air dropped US H-bomb test, which was dropped from a B-52. The aircraft crew misidentified the aim point and dropped the weapon (a 3 megaton Mk 17) in the wrong place. I do recall reading an article by a B-47 pilot who was involved that test that their crew realised as soon as the weapon had been released that they were way too close to air zero and had to make an extreme manoeuvre (of a B-47) to get as far away as they could. Though they survived, the B-47 suffered extensive damage from the thermal effects and blast. There are a couple of videos kicking around on the internet showing the de-classified film of the effects on aircraft used on these test (the one covering the aircraft is below).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbVzUXO8a6E

[Pontius Navigator]

Be interesting to see if the v bombers could have escaped the blast after lofting their thermonuclear loads; can't imagine the v bomber was the most manoeuvrable post loft.

We didn't loft as such but did release in the climb with pitch angles between 12 and 15 degrees depending on the particular engines fitted. The standard release height was 10,500 feet followed by a 47 deg bank turn through 140 deg and still climbing. I have papers showing the lowest heights for weapons function but increasing risk.

[BEagle]

We didn't loft as such but did release in the climb with pitch angles between 12 and 15 degrees depending on the particular engines fitted.

Fortunately that suicidal technique had been binned by the time I flew the Vulcan (1977); the only attack option we used was low-level laydown.

[Courtney Mil]

Well, BEags, at least that suicidal technique was replaced by a completely safe, non-suicidal technique of flying around at low level with the blinds closed. :uhoh:

[NutLoose]

It was all suicide, when you look at Chernobyl and how far that reached, we’d all be dead once couple had been dropped in Europe, either that or sterile. No one would have won.

[ORAC]

Another article by the same pilot (http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/The-Unhappy-Bottom-Riding-Club.html) about ejecting from an F-104 in a downward firing seat. He finishes by stating that someone up there must like him. I ain't too sure.....

.......Using all my remaining strength, I pulled the parachute’s top shroud lines and stopped my pendulum swing almost directly under the canopy. The ground was racing toward me, and before I could get turned around to face downwind, I hit the ground rotating. I landed in what had been Pancho Barnes’Happy Bottom Riding Club dump and was dragged for 40 yards on my back through broken glass and tin cans until my chute got hung up on a yucca tree.

The aircraft went in five miles short of the runway at Edwards. I was one happy aviator, even though my flight suit was torn and covered with blood and sand, I had cracked several vertebrae in my lower back, an air police pickup truck almost ran over me, and a doctor on his first day at the base hospital and a pediatrician on his first rescue helicopter ride dropped me from the stretcher a couple of times...............

[Ivan Rogov]

Fortunately that suicidal technique had been binned by the time I flew the Vulcan (1977); the only attack option we used was low-level laydown.

Did that mean flying over the target, in range of any weapon available? I know the recent GW1 thread highlighted that GR1s overflying the target with JP233 actually had better survival than those lofting bombs further out, but they were a lot smaller than a Vulcan.

I guess it was not the preferred attack method, but without a standoff weapon like Blue Steel and Skybolt we didn't have many options and high level had been proven to be dangerous?

Were there any estimates on success rates for low-level laydown V's loft or was it largely irrelevant as it would have effectively been end ex for everyone? :\

It sounds like the SSBNs were our only credible strategic response after the late 60's.

[Pontius Navigator]

IR, I am aware of one target where at least 5 aircraft were planned to attack in a short period of time using the 2E attack. It was a given that several would have been destroyed if the first or second got his bomb away.

BEagle, the pop-up escape manoeuvre had something going for it, you were at least 15,000 feet above and 4-5 miles from DGZ. The downside was the expected SA2 impact was pretty close to the time of detonation.

Do you remember the master planning for a laydown attack? Pass the target, extend to about 5-6 miles until the blast wave passed. Then the master stroke. Execute a 180 degree turn, remaining at low level until abeam the target and then max rate climb.

At least if the bomb didn't go the first time it gave you a second chance. It also had you climbing in a scene of greatest devastation.

[Courtney Mil]

No one would have won.

Nutty, I think that was the whole point of the deterrent.

But the Cold War seems such a waste of money now. We spent all that money on some amazing weapons and then never used them. Shouldn’t we have had a great big nuke party at the end instead of wasting them? It would have saved all those decommissioning costs too. If they’d filmed each drop, it could have built up a magnificent film library for sale to film-makers and made a bit of cash out them all too!

[NutLoose]

I visited Elvington where there is a WE177 propped up against the wall and gave it a satisfying kick.

I was being pragmatic, I think Chernobyl opened the worlds eyes to the fact you couldn't have a limited war.

[Courtney Mil]

Was it green, Nutty? All the ones I saw were green. I wonder why. Perhaps they needed camoflage during their relatively short time of flight.

To be honest, though, there's still a big difference between a reactor explosion like Chernobl and the detination of a realatively small nuke like WE177. The explosion at Chernobl wasn't a nuclear explosion, it was mainly hydrogen and it didn't consume any of the fuel, it just ejected it into the atmosphere. Bombs are a bit different.

That said, a world full of big bombs were always going to make one hell of a mess of the the planet. However, look at how many we've already detonated and the effect we live with today. The thing is, that it may be that a relatively small number of reactor accidents equates to quite a lot of bombs. Both in terms of immediate contamination and legacy.

[Pontius Navigator]

The YS2 was green, the same as most other bombs. The WE177B was white probably for better thermal protection once released. The WE177C was probably green for camouflage whilst being carried.

However you might have a point CM.

At one presentation a gentleman, who wore crimson pants or some such, when told that the bomb would impact and the laydown timer start asked:

"What would happen if I sent a man with a satchel charge and blew it up?"

When told there probably wouldn't be time said:

"Well what would happen if I shot it with my gun?"

So there you have it. Britain's nuclear deterrent neutralised by Herr Grubber and his little tank.

[Courtney Mil]

So why were my missiles white? Anyone could have seen them whilst I was carrying them.

[Pontius Navigator]

Which ones? I think Martel was green.

[Roadster280]

"Well what would happen if I shot it with my gun?"

Very pissed off atomic weapon detonates regardless?

But if it didn't, it would be one hell of a high risk EOD task!

Seriously, did they have anti-tamper fuzes? I imagine the last thing you want is an unexploded nuclear weapon fall into the hands of the enemy.

[Courtney Mil]

No. They're not like high explosive weapons. With HE, just a simple detonator will do the job. The detonator and associated circuits are nice and small and it's a simple matter to add verious timers, motion sensors, etc. With special weapons, making it go critical (and doing so very quickly) is a complex issue and takes a lot of space in the weapon. If it fails to detonate when it's supposed to, it's unlikely that it can be detonated subsequently so not much point in having any anti-tamper mechanisms.

That's a simplified answer, but you get the drift.

[Pontius Navigator]

Following from CM's answer. There are special security locks. The British used to use a physical lock and the US an electronic one.

When asked what would happen if weapons in storage fell in to enemy hands if the keys had been destroyed, this weapons engineering expert reckoned it would take less than 6 hours to bypass the lock, fit the weapon to a release system, and deliver it back by air. Reassuring.

[NutLoose]

Courtney, yes it was green same as the Jags, here is a picture of it, not taken by me. It Says it is a B

WE 177 Type B 400kt Thermo-Nuclear Bomb | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/webdunk/5026629382/)

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4151/5026629382_9a410a7e6a_z.jpg

Had to explain to an old couple standing nearby why I gave it a little kick :O

Couple at Cosford too, again, not by me, see

http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww175/rcsmcq/2008-07-13_0075.jpg

Rubbed my sticky paws over that one as the three man principle made that a forbidden action too.. :O

It sounds like I tour the country abusing ex RAF Nukes lol. :}

[Pontius Navigator]

NL, that is indeed a WE177B Training round which was green when the real ones were white. Now whether they introduced a different colour when real one were painted green I don't know.

There were only every 53 WE177B which were assigned to the V-force and it is most likely that they remained white hence the training round being green.

[Pontius Navigator]

If you compare the Martel and the WE177 and note the similar external cable ducts, this gave rise to a Secret US report that the Martel may have had a nuclear warhead option. The Martel that the report referred to was the French radar variant.

[Yellow Sun]

NL, that is indeed a WE177B Training round which was green when the real ones were white. Now whether they introduced a different colour when real one were painted green I don't know.

The "shapes" were painted blue at the time that the warshot was white. Later came the "surveillance" round but I never saw one of those.

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

YS, you may be correct as I have handled all three. The trial 505 round was a different colour and the access to the arming panel was though two little panels rather than the later flap.

I certainly have another picture of a green training round but unfortunately no date.

[Roadster280]

I'm 44, these things have always given me the heebie-jeebies. I remember about 20 years ago, I went to the Smithsonian, where they had an SS-20 (IIRC, certainly a BFO Soviet ICBM). I about shat my pants. To think that the very instrument of oblivion, which which I had grown up, was right there in front of me.

Had a similar experience just last year at the FAA Museum. They have a WE177 next to a Buccaneer. I recognised it as soon as I saw it; a bomb, but bigger than a 1000lb-er. Sure enough, a WE177 training round. Even at 43, it sent shivers down my spine.

I'm glad my military career covered comms and helicopters(MAOTs). Nice, well-behaved toys to play with, not the instruments of armageddon. Just the orders to start it :ok:

[pedroalpha]

My Father was involved in the British tests at Christmas Island; I believe that he was on Valiants although it might have been Canberras and I do know that they depressurised prior to entering the cloud to enable air samples to be taken. Sadly, he died of cancer so he is not around to answer my questions.

[NutLoose]

I'm glad my military career covered comms and helicopters(MAOTs). Nice, well-behaved toys to play with, not the instruments of armageddon. Just the orders to start it

Wessex and Sea King could deploy Nukes, the WE177 could be carried by the Sea King

[ORAC]

Wessex and Sea King could deploy Nukes

"Dustbin, Dustbin, Dustbin".

"Beware, Beware, Beware".

[Timelord]

When WE177s were carried inside bomb bays the real ones were white and the training ones blue. Onces they started being carried externally they were all green, the only distinction being coloured bands around the nose indicating HE and fissile content. Gave me a long pause for thought when tasked to drop a green one on a trial!

[ORAC]

Onces they started being carried externally they were all green, the only distinction being coloured bands around the nose indicating HE and fissile content. Gave me a long pause for thought when tasked to drop a green one on a trial! Not as much as the USAF when a B-52 flew a training mission with a load of live ALCMs (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/4251490). It was only picked up by the ground crew on turn round.

A lot of people got fired for that one......

[Agaricus bisporus]

And who now troubles themselves whether (ha!) the poor SeaKing could outrun the blast? Piss-poor job prospect, that one.

Just expend one SK and crew per Victor (or unfortunate whale). Good trade I suppose if push came to shove, but chilling to look back and think it really was real. Once.

[Roadster280]

Wessex and Sea King could deploy Nukes, the WE177 could be carried by the Sea King

I know, but the only SKs I had anything to with were Junglies, and I don't see HC4s as bombers! What Wessexes there were in service never needed (UK) MAOT support in my time, so I only ever had anything to do with them as pax.

I think I'm right in saying that the Wasp could also drop nukes. That must have been a bit of a moment for the crew.

[Pontius Navigator]

In 1963 the plan for release clearance of the WE177A was #1Buccaneer, #5Wasp, #6 Wessex HAS3, #7 Wessex HU5, #10 Sea King (to be)

[1771 DELETE]

The Nimrod special weapon was white but not of UK origin.
One time when at Kirtland AFB near Alburqueque (sp) i visited their nuclear weapons museum. Several of the weapons on display were still in active service which surprised me.
The whole reason for being over there was to drop a couple of shapes on the Whites Sands range, it also happened to be the same week that the space shuttle landed there for the first time.

[Ivan Rogov]

1771 could it carry all these?

http://www.navynucweps.com/images/57_convoy.jpg

:eek:

[Roadster280]

Dumb question time.

Does an NDB generate "liquid fallout" that remains radioactive in the atmosphere as vapour/clouds, or just an enormous splash and it all comes back down again pretty much immediately? I assume the vast quantity of water surrounding the burst site disperses any radiation concerns pretty quickly.

[VinRouge]

The underwater atol tests were some of the dirtiest done, despite their relatively low yields. Read 100 suns, fantastic coffee table book. Got a great section in the back including the story of John Wayne and cast being irradiated on the set of a western in Arizona I believe, as a result of fallout. 10 years later, many of the cast, including Wayne, he died of cancer.

The Straight Dope: Did John Wayne die of cancer caused by a radioactive movie set? (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/374/did-john-wayne-die-of-cancer-caused-by-a-radioactive-movie-set)

My favourite story in the book has to be about Davy Crockett nuclear mortar. Bat**** crazy.

YouTube (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=khyZI3RK2lE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DkhyZI3RK2lE)

[Yellow Sun]

The Nimrod special weapon was white but not of UK origin.

I saw a lot of shapes; they were white; but never saw a B57 warshot.

YS

[Roadster280]

I understand the atoll tests would have spewed radioactive coral & sand etc, but for a deep-sea attack on a submarine, would it produce "fallout"? Or just a giant splash and no lasting radiation?

[Pontius Navigator]

Roadster, if you read this report The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, 1977: Underwater and Underground Bursts (http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/atomic/nukeffct/enw77b2.html) it should answer your question.

It talks of bursts in deep water at 500 and 2000 feet. The depth of burst is of tactical significance. If an air delivered weapon was set to detonate when very deep the time late at datum would risk giving a target sufficient time to escape the blast.

[Roadster280]

Thanks PN, that makes sense. Deep water=not so bad. Unless you're in a submarine, a Shackleton or a Wasp, that is :)

[Pontius Navigator]

R280, of bobbing about in a boat.

[West Coast]

Operation Wigwam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wigwam)


Roaster

You might this of interest. I heard about this a few years ago and because its off the coast of San Diego (where I live) I did some research. The short film in the external links near the bottom of the link is fairly interesting.

[deltahotel]

Pedroalpha - my dad also involved in Op Grapple and the post explosion air sampling. He was a Canberra nav, based at RAAF (?) Edinburgh from mid 58 - late 59. Didn't talk about it that much and died from cancer 4 years ago aged 77.

DH

[dragartist]

In 1963 the plan for release clearance of the WE177A was #1Buccaneer, #5Wasp, #6 Wessex HAS3, #7 Wessex HU5, #10 Sea King (to be)

Pontius, did these RW platforms have the circuits to realease live special weapons. I know when I was at JATE I had custody of a number of classified Tie Down Shemes for Air Transport (Inc RW) also a number of Helicopter Underslung Load schemes. It was quite a chore to look after these documents. I had to laff as they were black on white tracings from photo's where, for Sy purposes, the weapon was drapped in a tarpauline!!

I had a bit of experience, and recieved AoC in C Commendation for designing the armament system on the Nimrod R. went to great lengths with ARM Div at A2 E2. had to jump through countless hoops when working on the MR2 (Special radios) because of the Special Weapons circuits.

All very spine chilling stuff

[1771 DELETE]

Ivan, that is a very interesting photo you have there, they were certainly similar but i can not understand how they could be photographed in circumstances similar to that. Once we finished with them in the early 90`s, the C141`s whipped them all to the west.
Mention of the Nimrod R1 weapon system, not sure how that sneaked onto these pages, the aircraft had no offensive weapons, the bomb bay being filled up with other stuff.

[Pontius Navigator]

Drag, in 1963 that was the policy decision for clearances.

My source also includes Harrier, Jaguar, Lynx, SHAR, Tornado and Vulcan Mk 1.

On the Vulcan re-roling to WE177 was simply a matter of swapping panel EP for panel ER. I know however that the Mk 1a Vulcan wing at Waddo was never roled for WE177 - targets or training.

I have photographs of a Wessex carrying a WE177A test round and a later list had plans for Wasp and Wessex to be cleared in 1967 and Sea King and Nimrod in 1968. I know Nimrod never carried WE177 either.

Although the Scimitar and Sea Vixen had been on the list they were both removed and the F4 was not added.

What I don't have is a definitive list of what actually carried the WE177. I know the Jaguar did but the Harrier did not.

[kenparry]

I know the Jaguar did but the Harrier did not.

RAF Harrier, correct. But Sea Harrier could.

[dragartist]

thanks for your help with my understanding of this topic pontius. I did a bit more research and found nuclear-weapons.info (http://www.nuclear-weapons.info/vw.htm#WE.177) which had pics of wessex and wasp carrying white weapons.

For 1771, I was trying to point out the lengths we had to go to when installing armaments on an aircraft that was not so equipped from the start. MASS Bus Bars, WoW swicthes, Flap override switches etc to keep crews safe and give them a chance of returning from dangerous missions. what had been routine stuff [on R]became 1o times more complex on aircaft that were equipped with special weapons[MR2]. You would not have wanted me to be complacent. The armaments did not need to be offensive. A flare from a BOZ pod could equally spoil someones day and unlikly to be the floppy link between the seat and stick.

As a youngster I can't comprehend the thought of heading off on a one way mission. let us hope those days are behind us.

[Pontius Navigator]

DM, we never considered these to be one-way missions. Under certain circumstances we were briefed that we might loiter until we had fuel for only target plus 50 miles.

Notwithstanding that UK and our base would be an incandescent smoking hole we were not very happy at the idea of planning a one-way mission.

[tornadoken]

PN: definitive list of what actually carried the WE177. Brian Burnell's, site, the books of Soton U's Mountbatten Centre, and elsewhere...try this. WE177B first.

Wilson got in, 10/64 pledged to "no new nuclear weapons". He chopped SSBN No.5, material for whose warheads were in AWRE/ROF's programme, and put them, (16x3), assembled as a variant of WE177 (now renamed WE177A*), in Vulcan 2 to sustain Deterrent credibility until RN took over. But they lingered longer:
9 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-25/2/69: 8
12 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-29/12/67: 8
35 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-14/1/69: 8
44 Sqd/Waddington, 1/7/68**-21/12/82: 8
50 Sqd/Waddington, 1/7/68**-30/6/82: 8
101 Sqd/Waddington, 1/7/68**-4/8/82: 8

27 Sqd/Scampton (bombs held in Waddo SSA***), 1/1/70-31/12/71**: } 8
617 Sqd/Scampton (bombs held in Waddo SSA***), 1/1/71-31/12/81: }
35 Sqd/Scampton (bombs held in Waddo SSA), 16/1/75-28/2/82: 8

9 Sqd/Akrotiri**, 26/2/69-31/12/74: 8
35 Sqd/Akrotiri**, 15/1/69-15/1/75: 8

9 Sqd/Waddington, 24/1/75-9/4/82: 8

36 rounds migrated to UK-based Tornado GR.1:
9 Sqd/Honington, 1/8/82-1/10/86: 12
27 Sqd/Marham, 12/8/83- 1/10/93: 12
617 Sqd/Marham, 16/5/83-31/3/94: 12

(PN has 53: maybe total inventory to sustain 48 serviceable)

(* 11/2/13 to clarify my sloppy phrase, PN #58: WE.177B (450Kt) was presented as a variant (so "no new") of (1963/64 pre-Wilson) WE.177 (0.5-10Kt), which was thus renamed WE.177A. ** amended 11/2/13 per PN #58 *** total becomes 48, 1/1/70)

[Pontius Navigator]

tornadoken, If I read them correctly you say the Vulcan had WE177A whereas they were of course the WE177B.

Then your figures show:

9 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-25/2/69: 8
12 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-29/12/67: 8
35 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-14/1/69: 8
44 Sqd/Waddington, mid-67-21/12/82: 8
50 Sqd/Waddington, 10/66-30/6/82: 8
101 Sqd/Waddington, 1/1/68-4/8/82: 8

Of the 24 Waddington weapons, I held the keys but 4 weapons were held at Finningley. During generation I had to wait until I was told the weapon number before I could issue the key to the crew (IIRC).

That is 48 weapons but 12 and 101 didn't have the WE177 at the same time so that drops to 40. 50 sqn was certainly the first Mk 1A sqn to convert but the WE177 was not introduced until the war plan change on 1 Jul 68.

27 Sqd/Scampton (bombs held in Waddo SSA, ex-12 Sqd), 1/1/70-29/3/72: } 8 but they were MRR from end 1971.
617 Sqd/Scampton (bombs held in Waddo SSA, ex-12 Sqd), 1/1/71-31/12/81: }


9 Sqd/Akrotiri (bombs held at Tuxedo SSA, Cape Gata, Dhekelia): 26/2/69-31/12/74: 8
35 Sqd/Akrotiri (bombs held at Tuxedo SSA, Cape Gata, Dhekelia), 15/1/69-15/1/75: 8

I can't think why the bombs would have been stored in Dhekelia as Akrotiri had a perfectly adequate SSA of its own with 9 bunkers. You can get more than 2 WE177 in each bunker. Also, as far as I am aware, Cape Gata is on the Akrotiri peninsular. When we had generation exercises the weapons were certainly available minutes after startex. I am of the opinion that my source is better than the Soton one.

Now by my reckoning we should have had 56 WE177B but my source is adamant the there were only ever 53 and we lost one of those to a lightning strike. He said that 3 WE177A were issued to Akrotiri to bring there holding to 16 but I was not aware of that until 27 relinquished their weapons.

Returning to the dates, the production rate in 1967 was in the region of 4 WE177B per month.

[tornadoken]

(10/2 post on WE177B amended iaw PN 11/2)

WE.177C.
On 6/4/65 PM Wilson optioned 40 GR F-111K intended to support 24 U/E in FEAF. He could not take US weapons out-of-NATO-area, had pledged "no new nukes", so chose not to build No.4 SSBN shipset (48 warheads; no crew) but to assemble more WE.177B for them. After F-111K chop 16/1/68 they would have gone to Buccaneer S.2(RAF), 26 ordered 12/7/68, plus more ex-RN, for RAFG.

12/3/69 Defence Minister Healey approved a range of applications for WE177 (K.Stoddart {Soton U},Losing an Empire and Finding a Role, Palgrave,2012,P.220 labels all 172/RAF+ 43/RN as 177A, but the list included high-yield applications). But…
- AWRE lost 2 years' production, 1968-70, due to contamination. (HMS Resolution maiden patrol, 15/6/68 was with 50% of U/E warheads);
- 11/69 “Provisional Political Guidelines for the Initial Defensive Tactical Use of Nuclear Weapons by NATO” constrained to <200Kt. RAFG’s F-4M US B-61 were so dialled. WE177B was re-invented as WE177C, 190Kt. and 36 were deployed on Buccaneer S.2:
Laarbruch 15 Sqdn 31/12/72 -31/10/83
Laarbruch 16 Sqdn 8/1/73 - 29/2/84, re-inforced by 208 Sqdn/Honington, 1/7/74 - 2/80.

E.Heath got in, 6/70. He chose to displace RAFG F-4M/US Bombs with Jaguar: instead of 90 S+110 B trainers he changed to 35 T.2+165 GR.1. He chose to put WE177C on 60 to be in RAFG from 1975, providing all-British weapons to meet Saceur’s RAFG Task of 96 targets.
("No new nukes": I believe them to have been built from the 12 leftover from No.4 SSBN, plus conversion of 48xNo.3 A3Ts, planned to be displaced by Chevaline. That programme slipped to maiden patrol, 10/82, in part due, again, to AWE contamination 1978/82 (P.Malone,Br.Nucl. Deterrent, C.Helm, 84,P.125). RN juggled 3 boats x16 missiles x2 warheads to sustain 2x16x3 A3T at sea). Jaguar GR.1 served:
Brüggen 14 Sqdn(opnl: )1/12/75 - 1/11/85 (15 U/E)
17 Sqdn 1/2/76 - 1/3/85 (15)
31 Sqdn 30/6/76 - 1/11/84 (15)
20 Sqdn 1/3/77 - 30/6/84 (15)
detached from Coltishall: 6 Sqdn 1976 - 6/84
detached from Coltishall:54 Sqdn 1976 - 6/84

Tornado GR.1 took over all 96 WE177C:
Laarbruch 15 Sqdn (opnl: )1/11/83 - 31/12/91
16 Sqdn 29/2/84 - 11/9/91
20 Sqdn 30/6/84 - 31/5/92
Brüggen 31 Sqdn 1/11/84 - mid-95
17 Sqdn 1/3/85 - mid-95
14 Sqdn 1/11/85 - mid-95
9 Sqdn 1/10/86 - mid-95
detached from Honington:TWCU 1984 - mid-95 (1/12/83: 45(R) Sqdn)

[Pontius Navigator]

Tornadoken, I had some small input into Keith Stoddart's work.

[tornadoken]

WE177A
Initiated 1963 as plain WE177 10Kt. fission RAF tactical weapon, soon joined by RN for Bucc ASV, and Ikara/helos ASW as NDB. PN #39/53 has a 1963 Clearance Plan identifying 5 of 10 types, to which I add Ikara, Shackleton MR.3/Phase 3, TSR.2, P.1154(RAF), P.1154(RN). His source later adds Vulcan 1, Harrier, SHAR, Jaguar, Tornado, Lynx. Almost none of this happened; RAF did not deploy an over-land variant. PN #58 has 3 on Akrotiri: these can only have been briefly diverted from Honington maritime Buccs.

I choose here to use the terms WE.177A(N) and WE177A(NDB). Stoddart P.218 has them as “all having (NDB) option”, but they were deployed discretely…for maritime targets, and were delayed from 1963’s Plans by the invention of fusion WE177B to sustain MBF credibility from 1966. NATO’s new doctrine, 12/12/67 of “flexible response” cast doubt on the notion of scattering small (honest, Guv'nor) mushrooms hither and yon. I believe only 48 WE.177A were deployed. (N) is reported as 10Kt., (NDB) as 0.5 Kt. and 10Kt.

WE.177A(N): 10: Buccaneer S.2, 809NAS/LM/Honington/Ark, 14/6/70-15/12/78. 5 (vaults) on Ark, 2 each on some frigates and RFAs. 10 to RAF/12 Sqdn,maritime strike.
Honington 809NAS 1972 -13/12/78 (10)
12 Sqdn 1971 - 2/80 (10)
216 Sqdn 1/7/79 - 2/80 (10)
208 Sqdn /8/80 - 19/10/84 } (20)
reinforced by 237OCU 7/80 - 19/10/84 }
Lossiemouth 12 Sqdn 28/7/80 - 1/10/93 }
208 Sqdn 19/10/84 - 31/3/94 }(20)
237OCU 19/10/84 - 1/10/91 }
Tornado GR1B 12 Sqdn (13 U/E) 1/10/93- 31/3/98 (10)
617 Sqdn (12 U/E) 1/4/94 - 31/3/98 (10)


WE.177A(NDB): ASW: 28, 9/2/73-11/7/80, 18 -31/3/92:
* ASW helis on those at sea of: ASW CVS/FFG, LPDs, HSS RFA Engadine:
- Wasp HAS.1: 829NAS/PO: /73-28/4/88: 26xT.12I Leander, 8xT.21 Amazon, 19/7/74-1979;
- Lynx (HAS.2:’78-’88; HAS.3:1982-’92) 815 NAS/PO,1978-31/3/92;
- 829NAS/PO, 9/86 -3/92:17xT.12I, 8xT.21: 1978-31/3/92;
- Sea King (HAS.1, 2/73; HAS.2, 12/76; HAS.5, 12/80; HAS.6, 10/89):
- 810NAS/CU: 18/2/83-22/1/89 HSS Engadine; /Illustrious: 10/89-31/3/92;
- 814NAS/CU:/Hermes,’73-1/82, 3/83;/Bulwark,1/81;/Illustrious,9/83-2/88;/Invincible,5/89-3/92
- 820 NAS/CU/Blake, 3/73-1/79; /Invincible, 7/80-3/84; /Hermes, 3-9/82; /Ark: 1/11/85-31/3/92;
- 824 NAS/CU/Ark, 9/2/73-15/12/78; /Hermes, late-83-2/84; /Illustrious,9/88; HSS,’84-31/3/92
- 826NAS/CU: /Tiger: 3/73-4/78; /Bulwark: 23/2/79-2/81; /Hermes: 5/81-1/82, autumn,’83-2/84;
* Sea Harrier FRS.1: deepwater ASV: 10: CVL Hermes and CVS (5xvaults), 11/7/80-31/3/92:
- 8x800NAS/VL:CVS: Invincible, 11/7/80-31/3/92, Illustrious, 9/83-9/91, Ark, 1/11/85-31/3/92.
- 8x801NAS/VL: 800NAS also on Hermes: 6/81-4/82 and autumn,1983-2/84.

3 WE.177A(N)/(NDB) Depots: - Bull Point/Ernesettle, Plymouth: Devonport HP ships/CU helis;
- Coulport, for Rosyth Home Port ships and LM Buccaneer WE.177A(N) (RN and RAF);
- Frater, Gosport for Portsmouth Home Port ships, PO helis and VL Sea Harrier FRS.1.

In summary: one source has spares as 10% of first 100, 6% thereafter: so PN/Stoddart 53 WE177B matches 48 deployed.

I have here presented 48xA, 48xB, 96xC: 192 deployed (add spares). SIPRI 1993 Yearbook,P239 has 175.M.Mazarr/A.Lennon,Towards a Nuc.Peace,St.Martin’s P.,94: “>180 produced up to 1982”.

[95i]

As a member of Royal Air Force Museum Laarbruch in Germany I’m doing research on the history of the squadrons.

No 16 Squadron with their Canberras BI8 were the first to get the U.S. nuclear weapons.
My information up to now says: in 1960.

Nuclear weapons 16 Squadron
1960
Delivery of the first nuclear weapons - RAF Laarbruch (16 Squadron) was equipped with tactical nuclear weapons as the first German base. The American weapons were delivered with an American Hercules.The first tactical nuclear bomb was the Mk 7 (‚Little E‘). The bomb came into RAF service in 1960 and lasted just 5 years. To guard the weapons there was a detachment of 60 US soldiers.

Station Commander Wheeler reported the arrival of the nuclear weapons wasn't without problems. The weapons came from a base in France and were transported in a 4-engine Hercules C-130. On taxiing to the nuclear weapons site the plane struck a tree with its wing. A fuel tank ruptured and a lot of fuel leaked out. The US-guards immediately surrounded the airplane. Wheeler had to threaten to use military force in order to allow the RAF fireservice to spray foam on the fuel.



QRA (Americans and nuclear weapons)

The American custodians of the nuclear weapons were “Detachment 7232nd munitions Maintenance Group” from Wiesbaden. “Det 3. 7149 TFW” from Spangdahlem took over the responsibility 1 July 1968.
There were 60 men in the detachment and the tour was 3 years. In QRA there was an American Alert Duty Officer (ADO), who would have released the weapon to the RAF when ordered, and an American guard.

Does anyone have a more exact date?

On the other hand there is this remark on the RAF Museum Cosford site;

Cold War Timeline 1958 (http://www.nationalcoldwarexhibition.org/explore/timeline.cfm?year=1958&month=May)

It states ‘5 May 58 The English Electric Canberra squadrons of the RAF's 2nd Tactical Air Force in Germany acquired a nuclear capability’.

Does it mean that the squadrons actually had “the bomb”? Or does it only refer to the overall political intention rather than when the squadrons were equipped.

Looking forward to your answer.
Laarbruch Museum (http://www.laarbruch-museum.net/ENG/index_ENG.htm)

[Pontius Navigator]

It states ‘5 May 58 The English Electric Canberra squadrons of the RAF's 2nd Tactical Air Force in Germany acquired a nuclear capability’.

Does it mean that the squadrons actually had “the bomb”? Or does it only refer to the overall political intention rather than when the squadrons were equipped.

I don't know the answer but I suspect that 'acquired a nuclear capability' refers to the installation and proving of the nuclear weapons circuitry.

It might be worth writing to the RAF Armament Support Unit at RAF Wittering. It is a long shot but they were responsible for all training and they may have records in different forms. One, naturally, is the F540, which should be quite specific on when different training started and might also list the names of course members.

The other is more esoteric and depends on whether their squirrel tendency has been maintained. In 1974, pre-computers, they maintained a cardex with details of every person that had attended a course and details of which courses they had attended. These cards were unclassified and when I suggested filtering and removing those for people both retired and deceased they resisted in case they returned or there were later questions about an individual.

Courses were codified with details such as 11A1 referring to 11-aircrew, A-British, 1-weapons. This was for the Vulcan. I also acquired 11DF5 for the F4 and 11F4 for the Nimrod. It is possible that this codification was not introduced until the 60s.

[95i]

We do have the Laarbruch F540s up to 1980, but they don't have any information about the deliveries of nuclear bomb. There is information about "training store" and "shapes" and about the LABS training and sorties.

[Once A Brat]

PN......good idea, apart from the RAFASUPU disbanded in 1999, its 'special' role and documentation transferred to the NW Convoy Group which later disbanded in 2002 when the role transferred to the RN (albeit carried out by MOD Police and AWE). The historic documentation was, I seem to remember, classified and lodged with the Air Historical Branch.

I know, as I was there!!

Really interresting thread that brings back fond memories of RAFASUPU, WST and NW Cvy Gp days

[Pontius Navigator]

OAB,

Thank you, although I worked with 5191 until 2 years ago I had overlooked the name change :).

The cardex to which I refer may well have been consigned to the bonfire apart from its utility for security purposes as an audit trail.

[Wander00]

Just been reading through this tread with interest as, in a closed thread, I came across the name of a pilot who had apparently flown a sampling Canberra through a nuclear cloud and subsequently was pretty ill and depressed and later took his own life. His widow has been prominent in the campaign for compensation for victims of nuclear testing. My minor link is that he was a flt cdr on 360 in the late 60s. He was leading a detachment at St Mawgan when I came the nearest I ever came to chucking one of Aunty Betty's aeroplanes away due to blanket fog across whole of the UK, and I was still on a white IR card! Not surprisingly he and the event stick in my mind 45 years later.