Military pension on 2nd career in public services

[heights good]

I am having a look at the future and planning what I would like to do as a second career. As a result I have spoken with several colleagues who seem to think were I to embark on another government career such as Police, Civil Service etc I am not entitled to my full pension being paid on commencement of my 2nd career. I have called the pension people in Glasgow, they weren't sure and will call me back.

Does anyone have an answer or at least know where I could look to find out online as the new .Gov MoD website is not being helpful.

Regards

HG

[Willard Whyte]

It may depend on the nature of the job, whether it's one open to anyone or solely ex-mil.

It would seem a 'bit' unfair to abate your pension if it's just a position that 'anyone' off the street could apply for, given that if you move in to the private sector the only thing you have to worry about is letting Xafinity and the taxman know how much your wages are so they can tax your pension correctly.

[lj101]

Heights

If you change department within the Civil Service, you don't actually leave the scheme (subtle difference), you remain within the Civil Service. Thus your pension contributions remain intact, within the Civil Service Pension Scheme. In addition, there is no physical pot of money, so if you actually leave the Civil Service, you are not able to transfer anything into another scheme (Private Sector) because there is simply not anything to transfer. However, the pension you have earned, will be preserved until you reach retirement age (for that particular scheme).

Another point that needs making is that there is no universal Public Sector pension sheme (which is what you imply). So again, the transfer is not as simple as you make out, making your statement unfactual. If you leave the Military and say join the Civil Service, you can transfer your Military pension, into the Civil Service Pension Scheme, but it WILL NOT be on a like for like transfer. Transfers also need to be completed within a strict time frame.
Wed, 27/06/2012 - 17:12

Source

Public sector pension changes - what you need to know | Moneywise (http://www.moneywise.co.uk/pensions/your-retirement/public-sector-pension-changes-what-you-need-to-know)

[Pontius Navigator]

It might be related to age. I retired beyond 55 and had a full pension. I then got a job as an RO and continued to receive my full military pension.

An RO's pay used to be based on the assumption that you received a military pension, typically at age 38. That changed about 10 years ago and we moved on to the standard CS banding at the next higher level.

[Pontius Navigator]

If you leave the Military and say join the Civil Service, you can transfer your Military pension, into the Civil Service Pension Scheme, but it WILL NOT be on a like for like transfer.

I suspect this relates to pension earned rather than pension received. Ie if you had earned 12 years in the military then that service would count towards the civil service pension but supposing the civil service pension is based on 80ths whereas the military is based on 60ths then this would only benefit the CS pension to 12x3/4 or 8 years. That is just speculation but I think you can see why it might be true.

[FantomZorbin]

If it's any help ... retired and received RAF pension became a civil servat in MOD and receive a pension. Neither pension was moderated because of the other.

Speak to the Forces Pension Society for full details and help ... a great organisation. Forces Pension Society - Fighting for the Forces and their Families (http://www.forcespensionsociety.org/)

[lj101]

I haven't trawled through this but there might be some more info here;


http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/7_9_tcm6-1571.pdf

[zedder]

Left the RAF after 28 years on Compulsory Redundancy on 31st Aug 12, and EDP now in payment at 66.67% of Final Pension. Started working for Grampian Police on 5th Nov 12 and now receiving Police salary via Aberdeen Council.

Other than the need to be paying 40% tax on the Police salary for the rest of this Tax Year, and the need to inform HMRC which source of revenue you want your Tax Code applied to, the 2 income streams appear to sit in total isolation and neither impacts the other.

[Onceapilot]

Pontious, think the AFPS05 is based on 70ths not 60ths. The Police get 60ths with a FOUR times tax free lump sum, a good scheme because their union pushed the point that the police have a dangerous career.

OAP

[Pontius Navigator]

OAP, thank you, 60-70-80, it matters not just an illustration how one scheme can be modified when added to another. As I said, only applicable if you are not actually going to get a pension as you have still paid in to it. That is the major beef about the Army where they chop people just before they get a pension. If you manage to join another Government scheme and use that 'dead' credit then good on you. But again, only speculation.

[Onceapilot]

I agree, early termination within a short time of qualifying for a well earned pension is below contempt. I hope that a future service pension scheme will include protection from this sort of abuse. It is not beyond the ability of man to include fair controls to ensure personel are protected, and/or have to accept the limitations of any contract that they enter into, with regards to pensionable rights.

OAP

[Danny42C]

Heights good,

For what it's worth, I retired Jany '73 and kept full RAF pension when joining HMCE following month. Retired from HMCE 1986, been drawing their pension as well for 26 years now. Have drawn far more from RAF in pension than ever they paid me in 23 years service !

Long time ago, but would expect principle to remain the same. Good luck !

Danny.

[A2QFI]

Recently I was working part-time for the NHS and drawing a salary; at the same time I was getting a BAe Pension, a state Retirement pension and an RAF Pension and drawing income from an annuity. Obviously I was paying quite a lot of tax no one pension affected the payment of the others.

[Pontius Navigator]

a state Retirement pension and an RAF Pension . . . Obviously I was paying quite a lot of tax no one pension affected the payment of the others.

I think you will find there is a linkage between these too. Examine your 2013/14 payment schedules and you will see there is a connection between Serps and your pension.

[A2QFI]

Thank you. ISTR recall that the RAF opted me out of SERPS very many years ago = pre 1977 when I left.

[unclenelli]

I think it depends upon your own circumstances.

As I understand it...

Leave Mil and rejoin Mil, you'll lose out as pension offsets wage.
Leave Mil, join Civ, leave and rejoin Mil - You don't lose Pension.

I'd seriously look at doing a paper-round for a month or 2 after leaving, just to get a NI/Income Tax credit from an non-Mil job.

However, this may depend on leaving at pre- or post- 22yr point (for ORs)

[Al R]

Heights Good,

F-AFPS will do away with any penalties relating to leaving HM Forces and then rejoining in a different capacity, and in addition, para l refers;

"Members transferring between public service schemes to be treated as having continuous Service". That may not be in keeping with your timescale though.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/48851/20121016_afpc_final_agreement.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/48851/20121016_afpc_final_agreement.pdf)

There are special terms anyway which apply to what is formally known as 'the public sector transfer club'. If you're going to become a firefighter, teacher or Chief Inspector(!), these might be useful to you.

Public Sector Transfer Club - Civil Service (http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/pensions/transfer-club)

http://resources.civilservice.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-Public-Sector-Transfer-Club-WEB-Sept-2012.pdf (http://resources.civilservice.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-Public-Sector-Transfer-Club-WEB-Sept-2012.pdf)

[spekesoftly]

..... ISTR recall that the RAF opted me out of SERPS very many years ago = pre 1977 ....My understanding is that SERPS didn't start until April 1978. Prior to that there was Graduated Pension, and since April 2002 SERPS was replaced by the Second (or Additional) State Pension. Having recently requested and received a State Pension Statement (forecast), the calculations and rules seem fiendishly complicated, especially when taking account of some periods that were 'contracted out', and others that were not!

[Voxpop]

You would only suffer abatement if you took a job for which your military experience was a pre-requisite. So, if you go for an MPGS job or an FTRS job, you will be abated. Other public sector jobs are, typically, subject to 'fair and open competition' and no abatement of your pension would happen.

[Pontius Navigator]

You would only suffer abatement . . .an FTRS job, you will be abated.

Was it not the case that your pension was abated to keep your FTRS pay at no more than the previous rate for the rank? Earned £40k, new pension £10k, FTRS pay (Home Commitment) £40k-15% = £34k therefore pension limited to £6kbringing total pay back to £40k.

[ricardian]

I was a civil servant 1973-2003 but my 12 years RAF service 1961-1973 did not count towards my civil service pension because I left the RAF before 1975.

[Doctor Cruces]

Left RAF after 22 and got the pension. Ended up in civil service and later local government. Neither had any effect on my RAF pension.

[Voxpop]

In reply to:

"Was it not the case that your pension was abated to keep your FTRS pay at no more than the previous rate for the rank? Earned £40k, new pension £10k, FTRS pay (Home Commitment) £40k-15% = £34k therefore pension limited to £6kbringing total pay back to £40k."

What you are describing is how abatement works but the reason for the abatement was that the new pensionable job was by virtue of the previous military service (ie. it was not subject to 'fair and open competition').

[baffman]

I was a civil servant 1973-2003 but my 12 years RAF service 1961-1973 did not count towards my civil service pension because I left the RAF before 1975. Yes, despite the MOD-appointed Grigg Advisory Committee on Recruiting recommending in 1958 that service pensions be made transferable to other Government employments.

The Government undertook to look into that recommendation, but oddly enough never reported back to Parliament on that point.

[The B Word]

Voxpop

I don't doubt what you say. But I would love to know a job that is completely open to "fair and open competition". Most jobs have experience requirements, qualification requirements, location requirements, ability to travel requirements, etc... So why are we penalised for a "must have been a regular or reserve" requirement?

Seems grossly unfair from my end of the telescope!

The B Word

[Voxpop]

That's HM Treasury for you - it is their rule. It isn't really that long ago that Retired Officers in the Civil Service suffered abatement but a change of name and opening applications up to 'others' saw the end of it.

[Dick Allen]

Indeed so Voxpop.

When I PVR'd for a CS post in DARA, my RAF pension was unaffected. As some may know, I am now in a uniformed MSF (Military Supoport Function) post in the CS (son of ROs) but pension still unaffected. Only if I were FTRS would the pension be abated or lost (temporarily until final retirement, when it comes back).

[Melchett01]

What you are describing is how abatement works but the reason for the abatement was that the new pensionable job was by virtue of the previous military service (ie. it was not subject to 'fair and open competition').

Regardless of whether you rejoin as CS, FTRS, ADC or whatever else commitment / contract, the whole notion of having pay or pension abated is frankly grossly unfair and is why I, and many I know, will never work for any organisation that operates such a practice.

If on leaving the military you get another job, which you have to apply for, then frankly it's none of their business whether you have a second income or how you got that income stream. And frankly, saying you are only eligible for the job by virtue of your previous experience, that is little short of bare faced cheek.

I can't think of any other organisation that would penalise you for your previous experience, which THEY wanted to use and benefit from. If anything, previous experience should attract a premium to your salary in recognition of the fact that they are getting a finished product and don't have to invest in large amounts of training and development time.

[Lima Juliet]

Yes, it's the one thing about FTRS that makes me cross... http://forums.mg-rover.org/images/smilies/tazz2.gif

How about making it "open" - I'm pretty sure that out-and-out civvies would not be offered a job in most cases...

LJ

[The Old Fat One]

I suspect part of the problem with nailing this stuff, is the rate of change of pension schemes in public sector.

I left the mob in 2003 on AFPS 75 and briefly (18 months) worked for the MOD. the civil service had just binned their existing scheme and replaced it with a three choice scheme, one of which was a stakeholder scheme (I believe these have now also been replaced?) Knowing I was only going be in the job a little while, I went for the stakeholder thing. What a snafu, that turned about to be. Apparently I was only one of seven people in the entire civil service who went down this road and it took forever to get it established.

I had the last laugh though...I paid in a total of £480 in 18 months and last year it coughed out £4K tax free and a slap up dinner for two every month from now to endex!

As others have said, RAF pension and aforementioned Civil Service thingy, completely separate and unaffected by each other. Shouldn't read too much into it though.

[Al R]

Melchett,

I could be wrong, and I stand by to be corrected.

But isn't AFPS 'as good' as it is (was?!) because of the nature of the military contract and that a second career and decent employment after a military career wasn't a given and there weren't so many possibilities of further employment?

The erosion of the military contract is meaning that the benefits of the AFPS are being lost. Some will argue that they are being lost because a military career structure is more closely accessible and aligned to one in civvy street and that therefore, the terms can be the same.

[Al R]

#The Old Fat One.

Change. It affects everyone in the public sector!

Who'd be a judge..? (http://www.echelonwealthcare.co.uk/the-judiciary-takes-a-haircut/)

[thing]

I left in '95 after 22 years and became a teacher. I took an early teacher's pension last year at 55 (still teaching, just took the pension) and there have been no penalties that I'm aware of anywhere down the line.