F-35 Probe and Drogue

[mike-wsm]

Just found this - apologies if anyone posted it already.

7xR_3H0qaTE

[Bob Viking]

Alright so he got in, but it wasn't pretty! Basket chasing if ever I saw it.
BV;)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Getting out wasn't very good either!

[LateArmLive]

Either of you two experts ever tanked off a C130?

[glad rag]

^^^^^ this should be good^^^^

[cuefaye]

A prod's a prod ----.

I've definitely seen worse from my office!

[The Helpful Stacker]

A prod's a prod ----.

Fnarr, fnarr.

That's no excuse for aiming low at the start of the night though....;)

[Not_a_boffin]

Either of you two experts ever tanked off a C130?

:eek:

Fnarr fnarr indeed.

[Bob Viking]

Since when should my experience ever stand in the way of banter?! However, I would expect better from a TP.
The answer, by the way, is no. My old aircraft would have fallen out of the sky if I'd tried to fly slow enough to tank off a Herc.
BV

[Tankertrashnav]

As far as I was concerned any prod that resulted in contact, a green light and fuel flowing was a good one.

I've seen a lot worse - believe me!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

LAL - yes.

[LateArmLive]

My old aircraft would have fallen out of the sky if I'd tried to fly slow enough to tank off a Herc.

Or high enough :ok:

Anyway, I have passed your comments on to the pilot in question and he will no doubt get back to you for advice soon.

[Bob Viking]

Excellent. I sit here ever ready to offer pearls of wisdom to anybody who wishes to receive them.
BV

[Courtney Mil]

If my buddies and I could tank from a Herc in the lead sled F4, what was your problem? :cool:

[Dominator2]

There is no doubt that the pilot attempting to trial F35 AAR was either badly taught or not taught at all. I would recon he is a TP or Harrier pilot or both! I have tanked in both the Phantom and Tornado against the C130 on both the centre and wing hoses. Like all AAR, if you use the correct technique you will not go wrong. Both ac could AAR up to full with both weapons and tanks fitted.
Apart from chasing the basket the pilot is consistantly sitting too low. You have to accept that it is possible to miss, particularly if the basket is affected by the approaching receiver. Fly up and down the line of the hose. Chasing the basket WILL eventually reult in a spokes. Some of the worst AAR has been when there have been beers on prods.
When the F3 needed a KC135 BDA clearance for Bosnia, Boscombe Down insisted on doing it despite not having any AAR current TPs. 3 Probe Tips later and a lot of egg on face they gave the clearance with a whole page of warnings of how dangerous and difficult it was. God bless TPs.

[Courtney Mil]

Can't really argue with any of that, Dom. Actually, I rather liked tanking from the Herc in both the jets you mention.

[orca]

I am pretty sure that I was taught once - but suspect it was 'badly'.

How about my own technique. Move into a waiting position no more than three foot from the basket and offset the probe from the centre to account for bow wave. In this case aiming for the 2 o'clock position just inside the rim. Look up at the drogue unit and fly towards it at a smart marching pace.

Lunging at short range - caused by basket gazing - always seemed to produce the most intense sinusoids, but my real pet peeve was mainly junior guys who wouldn't wait in a position so the tanker driver could see them - and when cleared astern went far too far back...some 50 feet aft of the hose.

'How's that going to work in IMC?' I would ask. (Concentrates the mind when all you can see of Mr Vickers finest is the wing tip.)

I think the chap in the video does OK, but he does start from too far back and is clearly stretching the hose in a low position.

Oh, and yes I do know the driver and yes I have tanked off the C-130. Canadian nice with good pods and hoses, Spanish dreadful with an unlit drogue at night.

[Dominator2]

The other thing I forget to mention was SPILS In or OUT for C130 AAR? You will recall it was SPILS OUT for the Herc. This was because a TP tried to act like a JP (his words not mine) and nearly lost control. He deliberatly got high and induced yaw which caused the SPILS to trip, this frightened him.
As far as I know most of us tanked with SPILS In without any problem. My concern was if the SPILS were OUT and you backed out at Max Weight you could then get high AoAs very quickly. Once again, God bless TPs.

[pontifex]

As an ex AARI and a TP I have to say I recon he was a TP who had never done it before. This had been the case with the Nimrod which, until Corporate had been judged by previous Boscombe TPs as impossible to prod. It was, actually, one of the most benign prodders I ever experienced. If you really want difficult try an AEW Nimrod against a Vulcan!

[D-IFF_ident]

The non-publicly available video is much more sporting :}

[Bob Viking]

It wasn't our fault. It was the Herc's. If they could have flown at 300IAS (at a safe height) we would have had no problems!
BV:O

[kbrockman]

I have tanked in both the Phantom and Tornado against the C130 on both the centre and wing hoses.

Learn something new every day, I didn't know the C130 had also a centre hose.

[Courtney Mil]

Once we cut a hole in the ramp and stuck a Hose Drum Unit in there it did.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/brianmouat/C-130tanker.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

The centre hose was particularly useful for the long Herc out of ASI on Air Bridge.

[SASless]

Look up at the drogue unit and fly towards it at a smart marching pace.

Must create a real handicap for an RAF Pilot.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

So, there you go LateArmLive. Lots of tanking advice from people with a lot more tanking experience than me (and with which I completely agree). I realise Pprune has a lot of flippant comments, but I do my best not to make them personally on serious matters of which I have no experience.

p.s. SPILS In for me!

In a slight defence of those who write the manuals, I once forgot that you were not advised to tank the F3 at a height/fit that required both 'burners to stay in contact. Having done it, it was bloody tricky!

[LateArmLive]

Indeed, lots of tanking advice from a group of mostly ex-military aircrew sitting at their computer desks, not from TPs flying a jet and trialling something that has never been done before.;)

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

...on a test aircraft with <500 hours and an immature/developmental FCS...

[Dominator2]

LAL, One of the lessons I thought we learnt over 10 years ago was best 'man for the job'. This is not always a TP with a strain gauge. OEUs have a wealth of experience and sometime may just need advice from BD on trial method. AAR is one of those disciplines where experience is invaluable. If the pilot is in an alien environment and working at capacity he is not best placed to made a valid assessment

[Justanopinion]

One of the lessons I thought we learnt over 10 years ago was best 'man for the job'

The "best man for the job" during Developmental Test is a Test Pilot. Its what they do. Any fast jet pilot who finds themselves in an "alien environment" or "working at capacity" while doing AAR is either a QFI or from the two seat community.

[cuefaye]

Well some are all three, so ------

[MightyGem]

Alright so he got in, but it wasn't pretty! Basket chasing if ever I saw it.
Hey, come on guys. It's an F 35. It hasn't done it very often.

[Bob Viking]

I wish to clear things up once and for all. What I posted was banter. Some individuals are getting a little precious I think.
It was meant in the same way that some of us would pass comment if, for example, Red 3 were slightly out of position or if Fernando Torres missed another golden scoring opportunity. It doesn't mean we could do any better it just means we have enough knowledge to know that it could have been improved upon.
I'm sure our TP friend is big enough and ugly enough to take banter in the way it was meant without his minders jumping in to protect him. After all, he gets to fly the F35 and its very unlikely that I ever will so I'm sure he won't be crying himself to sleep about BVs tanking comments.
As I said, it was just banter and I'd do it all again tomorrow (to his face if the opportunity presented itself) in a heartbeat.
BV

[cuefaye]

Bless -------

TP's I meant - especially those with Warton callsigns, which very temporarily escape me (someone will). Hartley bro (wtfau)!

[Courtney Mil]

BV,

Yep. Got that. If you bait a hook, someone will bite. I hadn't commented before, but what you said was right. It was just an observation, mate.

Anyway, as for...

It doesn't mean we could do any better

Really?

[Easy Street]

Anyway, I have passed your comments on to the pilot in question and he will no doubt get back to you for advice soon. Any fast jet pilot who finds themselves in an "alien environment" or "working at capacity" while doing AAR is either a QFI or from the two seat community.Aha! Straight to the nub of the matter - the Harrier crowd always were unable to take public criticism from anyone they deemed unworthy. This was always a source of much amusement when they got defensive in CQWI mass debriefs, before going away to conduct their 'proper' debrief in private. Plus ca change! :p

[Bob Viking]

Well that's just it. Maybe I could. I just haven't tried it in an F35 yet. Maybe I'm the best God damn F35 pilot in the world. They just haven't sent me my posting notice yet.
Maybe I should check my JPA account. Now how do I do that from overseas again?
BV:confused:

[LateArmLive]

Just give us your username and password and I'll login for you!

I know you were just bantering earlier mate - I've seen you tank! I'm just a little tired of the armchair experts of Pprune crtiticising something they've never done from the safety of their retirement homes.

[cuefaye]

Oh c'mon girls!

[cuefaye]

Abeo -------

[Bob Viking]

All is forgiven.
They say you're only as good as your last prod. Well that means I'm a legend forever since I plugged first time on my last tanking sortie and, until someone decides to stick a probe on a Hawk (a model that I'm likely to fly - I know there are varieties that can tank), my status won't change.
By the way, if I could remember my log in details then maybe I would.
BV:ok:

[cuefaye]

One of my last prods was a screw-up. I broke the probe off!! But oh my, the circumstances :suspect:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

LAL - quite understand your impatience with 'armchair' posters. Likewise; thus I try to avoid doing it on stuff I know nothing about. By chance, my last prod was a C-130.

[pontifex]

justanopinion

I have to disagree with you. A TP is not the "best man for the job", particularly if it is large aircraft AAR handling that is being assessed. Unless, of course, he has the relevant prior experience. Yes, I am now one of the armchair warriors but, in this case, I do know that of which I write. Been there, seen that, done it.

[AR1]

Difficulty refulling eh? Not the first.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dd_o1_9_axM#t=1147s)

[ian16th]

3 Probe Tips later and a lot of eggProbe ends, both the original flat ones and the later tulip ones, were so common on 214 in the late 50's early 60's, they were used as paper weights :ok:

Whenever the looser of the probe end phoned to ask if we had recovered his missing piece of brass, it was strenuously denied.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Chap I trained with managed to put his pitot tube into the basket. The blame was mainly placed on his AAR Instructor, as he was still on convex, but he was deeply embarrassed when the groundcrew presented him with said pitot tube mounted on a hardwood plinth, complete with the now useless basket which the tanker crew had provided.

Apparently, it's time to disconnect when the altimeter is full.

[Art Field]

I have made over 1000 receiver contacts with Valiant,Victor1 and 2, Vulcan, VC10, Nimrod and Herc I have tanked behind Valiant, Victor 1 and 2, Vulcan, VC10, Tristar and Herc. I must have watched thousands of receiver contacts and I reckon the most successful technique, as described by those who know, is to settle down around 5 feet behind the drogue, check settings including trim,attempt to settle heart rate (especially if AOC is sitting next to you).Now, looking up the line of the hose and applying any offset for the bow wave, increase power to give a smooth approach of 3 to 5kts on the tanker and without look at the drogue, maintain the hose line. This does not ensure success but increases your chances greatly, There will be days when that drogue looks 10 ft wide and you can not miss and there will be days when it looks 2 lnches and you certainly can.

[sycamore]

Tell the receiver it`s pink and got hair around it !

[Onceapilot]

Sage words from Art.
Good as your last prod? Not bragging. However, "maintain while we reprime the hose" has saved many an iffy situation from the other end of the hose;)

OAP