JAR/EASA ATPL skills test issues

[Heli2Brasil]

Dear experts, I'm looking for some advice while I'm trying to work out a solution with the Dutch Aviation Authorities concerning the ATPL skills test.

I'm about to leave the military and working towards getting my civil licenses. The ATPL is the last on my list and I meet the JAR/EASA requirements to apply for the skills test. As I have an EC135 type rating I want to take the test with Bond who are authorized for this by the UK CAA.

The DAA however claims I can only conduct an ATPL skills test with an AOC and only when I am an employer for that particular AOC..

I find this hard to believe as I've seen multiple TRTO's advertise they conduct ATPL checks. So I just wrote to flightsafety, eurocopter and agusta to check if they indeed conduct ATPL skill tests in combination with the type rating check, independent of the AOC holders. Can anyone tell me from their experience if this is correct?

They also had issues with the EC135. According to them the EASA type certificate states this aircraft is single pilot. I claimed Bond's have the dual pilot IFR kit installed and also that nearly all helicopters are designed single pilot IFR. I provided some brochures of the AW139, 189 and 101 that states all of these are single pilot IFR. The only helicopter I could find that is not single pilot IFR certified is the EC225, is this correct?

After multiple phone calls today they mentioned that if I can prove there are other pilots that pursued this path and also other JAR/EASA CAA's that allow independent FTO's/TRTO's to conduct ATPL skills tests they would be willing to accept as there would be jurisprudence...

Hope to read some of your views/experiences on this.

Thanks!:ok:

[Hot_LZ]

If the DAA are proving difficult have you explored the route of conducting your process through a different authority? If you have spoken to the CAA and they are happy with your Bond plan why not just go through them? With the new EASA scheme it should not matter which authority has issued your license within Europe. I know plenty of Dutch, Norwegians etc who have gone through the CAA.

Maybe something to think about.

LZ

[Heli2Brasil]

The problem is I did not conduct a full ATPL theory. I did a military bridge course that was designed by the DAA and Dutch Air Force and together with an ATPL skills test allows for the issue of the ATPL. So the UK CAA will not accept this Bridge Course as this is a national matter...

[HillerBee]

The reason why you can only do the ATPL skills test with an AOC operator is that, on the AOC they they are required to fly multi-pilot, for instance the AW139/S76 etc. An ATPL skilltest in the Netherlands is always combined with an OPC.

You won't be able to do an ATPL skilltest on an EC135 without an AOC holder.

If you meet all the requirements, find a job with an AOC holder and do they will do the ATPL skilltest with you (when they think you're ready)

[Thorond0r]

I did my atpl skill test in the Agusta AW-109 FFS. We all know it is certified for single pilot but we flew it complying with everything there is to be complied with (mc,me,ifr,etc) and was accepted by AESA (spanish JAA civil aviation authority). Once again The JAR are supposed to be the same for everybody but it really depends on national authority interpretation and willingness to cooperate. Sad

[Heli2Brasil]

@HillerBee I see your point. But Bond is an AOC holder and they fly the 135 multi pilot on their AOC. I even send the DAA these certificates. They also conduct JAR certified MCC courses and ATPL skill tests based on their OM and also to pilots that are not employed by Bond. The UK CAA accepts these tests and issues licenses based on this.

As of the 8th of April the Dutch are implementing EASA and the current national military-to-civilian guidelines will disappear. With that the military bridge courses that I have done as well. This means I would have to do all ATPL exams again... I did get hired by an AOC but will not finish my (AW139) typerating until 20th of April.... :sad:

[Milo C]

I think that if you get clearance from Dutch CAA before April 8th, to pass the Skill Test in the AW139 on April 20th, your bridge course will be still valid.

[Heli2Brasil]

Good news is I received a go from the authorities to conduct an ATPL skills test during the AW139 type rating. From what I understood talking to several pilots this is very common practice.

However, I received news today from the Agusta training center in Italy that they have never done an ATPL skills test during the type rating course and were not very interested to conduct one either....

Is it just me who thinks this is very strange?

[Milo C]

Hi Heli2,

Have you made any advance in this process?
I'm in a similar situation and I feel curiosity in how do you get to the end.

Thanks

[QTG]

On the EASA list, the only mandatory MP helicopter is the S92. All others, including the 225, can be flown SP under certain circumstances. In the context of an ATPL skill test, an aircraft is considered to be MP if it is certificated MP in the Flight Manual, or is operated as such by a particular operator.
The EC 135 complies on both counts. Provided that the full LHS instrument panel is installed, the Flight Manual clears the aircraft for MP IFR, and some operators (Bond in the UK) have MP procedures enshrined in their Ops manuals, thereby meeting the alternative requirement.
On my shiny new EASA licence, my EC135 type rating explicitly allows me both SP and MP privileges.
The UK CAA have issued several ATPL(H)s following skill tests conducted by Bond.

[Heli2Brasil]

@Milo; The good news is that I spoke with the head of training of Agusta last week and they are after all willing to take my ATPL skills test. They do say this is considered an exception and I need to present a letter from my authority requesting such a test to be conducted by Agusta. So after all my problems should be solved by the end of next month.

@QTG; Now this is where things get interesting. I used the exact same arguments that you presented while communicating with the Dutch CAA and they did still did not accept it. So I entered into contact with the UK CAA to get their "ATPL skills test on the 135" policy/view in writing to present back to the Dutch authorities. The answer below is the official UK CAA response and leaves me slightly confused as to what they are actually saying. Especially since I know for a fact, just like you said, they have been issuing ATPL licenses based on a skills test done on the 135...


[Q. Does the UK CAA acknowledges that Bond's EC135 with the Dual Pilot IFR kit installed are regarded as certified multi pilot helicopters and are therefore accepted for the conduct of an ATPL(H) skills test.]

Regarding the conduct of an ATPL(H) skill test on a single pilot certified helicopter in the UK, I have the following comments to make:

Answer: Unfortunately not, however I should clarify that this is not specifically a certification issue. The English language version of Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 (as amended) in Annex I (Part-FCL) at point FCL.010 defines a multi pilot helicopter as ‘ [the] type of aircraft which is required to be operated with a co-pilot as specified in the flight manual or by the air operator certificate or equivalent document’. Thus a helicopter which is certified for operation with only one pilot may nevertheless be a multi pilot helicopter for pilot licensing purposes if it is required to be operated with a co-pilot by the air operator certificate or equivalent document. Part-FCL in Subpart H then sets out the requirements to be met to qualify for a multi pilot helicopter type rating. To qualify for an ATPL(H), an applicant must, amongst other requirements, pass an ATPL(H) skill test in a multi pilot helicopter (see point FCL.520.H). This presupposes that the applicant has qualified for a type rating for the multi pilot helicopter to be used on the test.

A pilot does not need to be employed by the AOC but as noted above, must complete (or hold) a multi pilot type rating for the helicopter used for the ATPL(H) skill test. The MPH type rating course must be approved and incorporate [ … ] AOC MP SOPs, which Bond do not currently have. The only UK operators that do hold this approval at present, formally, are a small selection of the UK North Sea off-shore operators.

In clarification, the ATO must also be an AOC holder with approved MP operations in the SP certified helicopters for which MPH type ratings are sought. It should be noted that once a pilot has qualified on a type, they can take the rating with them to any operator (whether qualified as a single or as a multi pilot helicopter). AOC SOPs will then be addressed through the Part-OPS operator conversion courses, etc..

While this may not have been the response you were seeking, we hope it provides you with some further clarity as to the current requirements.

[QTG]

Bond offer a fully approved MP type rating course for the EC 135. If you'd like to pm me I'll send you a copy of the letter, signed by Head of Policy at the UK CAA, which explicitly allows MP accreditation.

[hueyracer]

I think the point the UK CAA is pointing out here is that an applicant for an ATPL(H) checkride needs to hold a MP type rating BEFORE he can do the ATPL(H) checkride.

That was the "old" regulations under JAR, and this is also taken over into CAP804...

So in your case you would have to attend a multi pilot helicopter type rating course (which is (afair) 10 hours for your first MPH rating), and THEN do the ATPL(H) checkride (which can be combined with a type rating checkride, but NOT with the initial MPH type rating)..