737NG flaps 10

[N1 Limit]

Hi there
I need your contributions for this: yesterday as i was on approach about 7 miles from touchdown established on the glide with flaps 5 my speed was a little high for the flap i was using around 176 and the skipper was urging me to quickly slow down to me it wasn't a big deal i'm used to approach a little faster for this flap config,he was pressurizing me to slow down and i then requested for flaps 10 and he told me that flaps 10 isn't to be uses as speed brake and that i should ask him for gear down instead which i did.But going back to the FCTM this is what i've found:During maneuvering for an approach,when the situation dictates an earlier than normal speed reduction,the use of flaps 10 with gear up is acceptable.
According to my skipper flaps 10 impose a stress on the wing.Anybody to shed a light with me on the matter?

[TypeIV]

Some captains refuses to extend flaps 1 unless there is like a 25-30kt marigin in still air :ugh:

[Hotel Charlie]

Sounds like a low timer Captain! He'll figure it out in a few years ... Good luck and Enjoy :ugh:

[safelife]

Use flaps to slow by extending them close to Vfe and that aircraft WILL develop flap problems eventually. Especially the 737.

[Hotel Charlie]

safelife Use flaps to slow by extending them close to Vfe and that aircraft WILL develop flap problems eventually. Especially the 737.


Did you read the post? Flap 10 at 176 Kts .... come on!!

[Skyhigh86]

yep extending flaps 10 out at 176 is certainly not going to cause any issues down the line.

Flaps 10 is great if you are struggling to stay on the Glide and a/c's speeding up. This can happen quite often with tailwinds.

[ImbracableCrunk]

F10 to hold speed on the G/S is great. F5, not enough? Go for F10!

[misd-agin]

TypeIV -Some captains refuses to extend flaps 1 unless there is like a 25-30kt marigin in still air :ugh:

There's no benefit in typical ops for extending flaps at higher speeds. Guys get 5 kts under the maximum limit - "Flaps 1". :{ Sometime later the throttles get pushed forward. Guess they didn't need that much drag afterall. :ooh:

The slower the speed at extension the easier it is on the a/c and the more efficient it is. :ok:

[B737900er]

Flap5 and flap 10 are the same speed (vref40+30) if anything it gives you a steeper rate of descent for the same speed.

[de facto]

He wanted you to slow down in a hurry,well at 7 miles speed 176 ,flaps 10 wint do much to you.
Eventhough gear may me a tad too early,it wont hurt too much either,you wre fully configured around 1500 ft..
Maybe it is his comfort zone or maybe there is something we dont know.
Flaps 10 as mentionned is great to help in increasing a tad your descent rate or not allowing speed increase on the glide with winds changing into a tailwind but sometimes the gear is the easiest option.
You will have plenty of time to practice those idle thrust to 500 ft when the time comes,your capt was maybe tired or junior,in anycase you can prove yourself later.
I have let a few fos who insisted to practice idle thrust to the limit perform a go around because at the end they put the gear a tad too late..a good eye opener for fuel saving record..

[Checkboard]

"During manoeuvring for an approach,when the situation dictates an earlier than normal speed reduction,the use of flaps 10 with gear up is acceptable."

Note that this statement says that using the flap to achieve a lower speed while manoeuvring, while keeping the gear up, is OK.

That is a great deal different to "extending the flap at high speed, to increase the drag in order to slow down" - which is what you were attempting, and the Captain was warning against.

If you need drag, because you are fast - add drag.

If you need lift, because you are reducing speed - extend the flap.

Your Captain was correct.

[ImbracableCrunk]

Note that this statement says that using the flap to achieve a lower speed while manoeuvring, while keeping the gear up, is OK.

That is a great deal different to "extending the flap at high speed, to increase the drag in order to slow down" - which is what you were attempting, and the Captain was warning against.


I wouldn't call 176knots "high speed" for flaps 10.

[RAT 5]

"During manoeuvring for an approach,when the situation dictates an earlier than normal speed reduction,the use of flaps 10 with gear up is acceptable."

You say the speed was a little high at F5; i.e. it was above the green bug for your weight, but it was not too high for the flap itself. I assume this was the scenario and the speed was not increasing. F5 idle thrust will hold a 3' glide path and thus not slow you down. The next action I assume was going to be gear down F15 about 4nm out. I don't know your weight, but I guess you were about 10kts too fast. So why not put the gear down at 5nm? That'll achieve you being at the correct speed for F15 at 4nm and use less fuel than dangling the Dunlops too early. There was no need to panic. F10, with the LED's going to full ext is perfectly acceptable, and is a good way to lose 10-15kts in 3-4nm. However, if your captain wanted to slow down 10kts in 3nm why not use that which is designed to do it = speed brakes. OK, I know, they are not too effective at slow speeds, but they will work over 3nm for such small adjustments. They are variable drag, while the gear is fixed drag. Once down it is down. Too early means more fuel & noise.
note: if at 7nm you are high & fast and not sure if your increased ROD at F5 (V/S and thus speed increase) will save the day, then gear is a great idea. I find too many low hour F/O's reluctant to use it thinking they'll get away with it by 500'. Their neck hairs have not yet become prickly enough. When they do start to twitch it is often too late.

[Denti]

F10, with the LED's going to full ext is perfectly acceptable, and is a good way to lose 10-15kts in 3-4nm.

I guess that depends what kind of NG your flying. On the 900 and many 800s they won't go to full extent at F10.

[nick14]

They certainly do on our 800's

Perfectly acceptable at that speed in my opinion

[captjns]

Flaps 10 work pretty well with the SFP birds:ok:. With the non SFPs with the LEDs in the FE position the jets slows a tad too much requiring a bit of thrust for the G/S... about 40% n1.

Heck if Mr. or Mrs. Boeing did'nt want us to use Flaps 10, then why put a detent there:hmm:.

[RAT 5]

"Heck if Mr. or Mrs. Boeing did'nt want us to use Flaps 10, then why put a detent there."

I'd always thought it was left over from B732 which had a fixed speed schedule of 210/190/180/170/160/150 for up/F1/F2/F5/F10/F15. In USA I believe ATC liked to use these speeds for 'pushing tin' and crating & maintaining correct spacing. I believe 160kts was a common speed on approach, as indeed it is at many UK airports.

[Denti]

Of course its perfectly acceptable, just saying that the SFP 800s dont go to full extent at F10. Many airlines chose those nowadays as there is usually not much if any of an extra cost, depending on price negotiation during purchase of course. In "my" outfit nearly all 800s now are equipped that way, so for us it is unusual to fly ones with the old LE schedule.

[framer]

At the end of the day you were only two minutes from touchdown and the Captain wanted you to dump the gear. Just do it and it is no big deal. Half the time he or she may have seen something you missed while you were concentrating on your low drag approach anyway ie an aircraft taking their time to line up or a tailwind starting to come in or the preceding aircraft looking like they'l miss their high speed. Or, that particular Captain may just be more conservative than you and that is how they operate. Or, they may have just had to do a go around last week because of an FO who was less highly skilled than yourself cocked it up, so now they are a little cautious.
Basically if the Captain thinks it's a good idea to take the gear at 2100ft then who's place is it to say otherwise?
The main thing is that it should not be taken personally. It is not a slight on your ability to fly an approach, it is simply what the PIC thinks is best at that moment. Don't hold it against them for being conservative, one day you might decide to be a fraction more conservative too.....that happens.

[de facto]

Framer,

Exactly my opinion.

[PantLoad]

Many years ago, specifically with regard to the 737 but applicable to all aircraft, really, Boeing published a document....I can't find it in my library, but I know I had it, I have it somewhere....where it showed that extending flaps/slats to slow the aircraft is not really productive. As I remember, they illustrated a case where the aircraft was high and fast....and three scenarios:

First, the pilots used the normal flap/extension regime, gear down right after Flaps 5.

Second, the pilots extended flaps/slats at Vfe, gear down at Flaps 5.

Third, the pilots used the speed brake and gear for getting where they wanted to be, extending the flaps/slats at the proper speed schedule.

The result showed the third scenario was the most effective.

Unless you go beyond about Flaps 15, you're really getting little additional drag. In fact, you're getting a lot of lift vs. the small increase in drag with the lower flap settings.

So, when you need it, use the gear / speed brakes as applicable. The flaps/slats will be happier. You'll get back to where you want to be on the approach much easier, quicker, with less nail biting.

Fly safe,

PantLoad

[ImbracableCrunk]

And remember, be a good little FO and never question authority.



Hey, is that Nimitz Hill?


(At some times it's good to say something. Disagreeing on the configuration, can be handled on the ground, whether a pilot is being conservative or misinformed.)

[Depone]

I use FL10 to slow down on the glide if FL5 is struggling. It works because it does add some drag. I don't use it often but it is well known that FL10, speedbrake and 180 kts gives a very good, controlled ROD.

I've also seen lots of other pilots using FL10 on the glide and it's taught in line training. Our airline (second biggest operator of the 738NG worldwide) prefers it to the use of the gear beyond 5d.

Too many pilots believe there is only one way (their way) of flying the aeroplane and can't tolerate or understand other approaches to resolving a problem, but I believe it's always worth listening and learning from others, be it a 10,000 hr Captain or 200 hr cadet.

[N1 Limit]

Many thanks for your contributions,the thread has grown very much.Then i wasn't wrong thinking that Flaps 10 does a pretty job while attempting to slow down on the glide.I needed outputs from people of different background on the matter.
Best regards

[framer]

It does a pretty job at certain weights/ temps /pressures with certain winds. It is an inadequate response at certain weights / temps/ pressures with certain winds. One of the great things about flying is that the variables are so many that judgement is often required to determine the best action.
Don't worry whether or not you were right or wrong, worry whether or not you can learn something from the flight and become better. Even if that is just learning why the Captain made a different assessment of the energy state than you did.

[PPRuNeUser0190]

Regarding the FCTM quote. Don't forget the FCTM is also written for the classic where F10 gives you a lower speed than F5. I think what the FCTM is talking about is that instead of going directly from F5 to gear down / F15; you can go to F10 if ATC wants you to slow down when still far from the runway.

[captjns]

Too many pilots believe there is only one way (their way) of flying the aeroplane and can't tolerate or understand other approaches to resolving a problem, but I believe it's always worth listening and learning from others, be it a 10,000 hr Captain or 200 hr cadet.

Pity. How is one going to learn without trial and error.

[RAT 5]

Captains who are talking autopilots are not always the best teachers. I have to disagree that the captain should always have the right to interfere in a the handling technique of PF, unless there is a safety/economic/SOP issue. As as been said there are many acceptable ways to skin the cat. I have come across many confused F/O's who have been taught 'SOP's?' by LTC's. Confused because there was such a variety of SOP's out there, when in fact it was a host of opinions. In today's world captains are being upgraded with less & less hours. They need to keep a steep learning curve all the way to CMD. The TQ courses teach absolute basics for the type. Most line flying is so shackled and inhibited by nanny SOP's that the new 3000hr captain will only have an inkling of what the a/c is capable of, and more importantly how to extricate yourself from an unwanted or unexpected condition. The a/c is capable of far more than most people realise. The HOT & Hi event at FHM comes to mind, and no doubt around the world there have been and will be many other scenarios where PF said "I'd like to have known the best way get out of that." A G/A is always an option, fuel permitting, but not always necessary.

[Track]

Framer: The main thing is that it should not be taken personally. It is not a slight on your ability to fly an approach, it is simply what the PIC thinks is best at that moment. Don't hold it against them for being conservative, one day you might decide to be a fraction more conservative too.....that happens.

Well said...

[RAT 5]

IMHO an F/O in their first few years is an apprentice and the captain a mentor/teacher. I learnt many things, both good and bad, from my years as an apprentice. I developed my style picking the cherries from the good guys and discarding the more dubious practices. As a T. captain of 25 years in various airlines and on various a/c, and therefore different operating cultures, I continued to learn from the F/O's. They were like myself and developed their style from the various captains who they'd flown with. I knew nothing of these captains' techniques other than what I saw via the F/O's. I learnt some very slick things. The same was true from hours in the back of the sim. I had my test program, to cover the necessary items, but the variety of what I saw in how to handle various scenarios was wonderful. I believed in allowing people to learn however they could, even me. There were occasions on the line when I thought PF was trying to be a little too slick and push the 500' boundary too far. A persuasive suggestion to consider a little more drag was sometimes met with a hesitant stare, but compliant reaction. As we squeezed through the 500' eye of the needle and just sneaked under the wire the non-arrogant and true apprentice F/O's acknowledged the mentoring. Indeed they enjoyed flying with me because they were allowed their head and trusted where I drew the line. Thus they learnt where the boundaries were and grew wiser. I did no more than pass on a philosophy I had been lucky enough to have be taught within. I can only commend it.

[eagleflier]

Very well said, that's exactly what I expect from the boss in the left seat. Make me feel like its my idea rather than blatantly tell me what to do.

I'm the kind of pilot that likes to "stretch it a bit". Never wanna drag the aeroplane in, stay on Flap 5 for as long as possible (5nm in most cases. I fly in an environment where ATC gives separation of 10nm on approach most times).
I find that most new captains on type are not comfortable with this approach and want me to configure much earlier so I always brief what I'm going to do and I have an idea of their approval (or not) way before the approach phase.

I hardly use flaps 10, only use it to get the speed to exact flaps speed for separation when behind a slower aircraft and catching up. I prefer to wait a bit longer and use the landing gear.

[Mikehotel152]

I'm flying with an increasing number of pilots who seem completely unconcerned about passenger comfort when flying the aeroplane, whether it be their rough manual handling or simply their choice of when and how to configure.

Flap 10? Flap 5 to 5d? Speedbrake roughly pulled to flight detent? Taking the first rapid exit by standing on the brakes? Sometimes pilots think they're flying solo.