Defensive tactics

[Runon]

I got done reading Chickenhawk at the direction of an old Nam heli pilot I met through a work acquaintance. He had great stories to share, but the best were his "watch out for" stories and defense tactics. Any of you in the know care to share?

So what do those in unfriendly territory do to stay safe? Fly low and fast? (Mason wrote about flying tree top level). Anything one does when engaged? (In the case of Mason in his book I believe all over wagging and swerving)

Also open to those in friendly but hazardous areas.

One of this gentlemen's was that when he first started shooting at targets (people) he'd forget about flying the helicopter and only focused on "getting em" barely last minute realizing he was way over redline and screaming at the ground. "That was stupid, I was more a danger to myself until I could focus on flying first and fighting second - that applies to more than war if you know what I mean" "Don't get so focused on the mission you forget to fly your helicopter."

He followed up by commenting that on this particular instance he was talking about the rockets (which didn't hit the intended target) splattered all kinds of mud into the air which he flew through completely covering the glass (really low remember). "I couldn't see a thing except the glass down by my feet which was only good for seeing the trees I almost hit." "Had to yaw all the way back to base looking out the side glass" - which brought him to his second point - don't just fly where you are - fly where you are going to be AND where you will be after that - ALWAYS look and think ahead.... WAY AHEAD.

[hueyracer]

Flying low or high is a matter of endless discussions-both is right and wrong.

Having flown everywhere from Afghanistan to Sudan, from Somalia to Iraq, you have to fly at the right altitude in this right moment.

Flying low-you are an easy target for small arms fire (a bigger hazard than Gnd-2-Air Missiles)....

Flying high-you are in range for any Sam-7, Strela or whatever...

The most important thing is to NOT forget where you are flying......some pilots get complacent in these austere environments....and start flying like they are at home...
:=

[Runon]

I found a little gem of info in a writeup from 11 May 1979
"
To Ensure a terrain mask for helicopters, select a route on which higher terrain lies between the route and the known enemy position. Mask the helicopter from both electronic and optical weaponry. When terrain or the location of enemy weapons restricts masking from both systems simultaneously, mask the helicopter from the electronic system. This situation occurs when the enemy's optical weapons are strategically located to fill gaps where his radar cannot detect low-flying aircraft. Visual detection at night is difficult for optical guncrews, even when the helicopter is not masked; but electronic detection is not affected by conditions at night."
Lieutenant Colonel Richard L. Phillips, USMC

Another from the same writeup
"
The recommended tactic for a helicopter pilot under fighter attack is to fly directly toward the attacking fighter to cause the fighter pilot to deepen the dive and increase airspeed. Just before anticipated engagement (...Most fighters begin firing from 1,500 to 1,000 meters out...), make a sharp turn either right or left but in the direction from which the helicopter pilot will best be able to keep the fighter in sight. Should the fighter stay on the helicopter in the turn, another sharp turn in the opposite direction should end in disengagement....
Mountainous, rugged terrain will normally force a fighter to make steep diving attacks......
... Avoid tight geometric formations because they prohibit effective evasive action ..... Trail formations may provide a fighter pilot with an opportunity to hit all helicopters in one pass. Loose, staggered, or free trail formations are probably the best formations to use.

And more
"The most vulnerable point of a mission for a large formation of helicopter is to be caught by fighters while on short final approach to a landing zone, because not only have the helicopters lost the ability to maneuver, but rockets and bombs will also be effective against the entire formation."

[Fareastdriver]

Not a lot of changes since the 70s, then.

[500guy]

What wars since vietnam have involved air to air dogfights? legit question.
Doesn't happen often anymore....

[Runon]

Very true.... as much as I hate to admit it. Sometimes I role play a bit of "aviation red dawn" when I fly. It keeps me alert and flying low is part of the job.

Just looking to fuel the fantasy a little.

But just for the sake of keeping it alive (and with due respect) at least 53 helicopter v. helicopter fights were recorded during the Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988). The bulk of the helicopters shot down during these fights were unarmed combat support helicopters downed by helicopter gunships

But not just in the role of Air to Air
Also stuff like "A clear sky is the perfect contrasting background for a SAM" "Some consider it beneficial to fly in the Haze, smoke and fog"
or
"TOW missiles can hit a slow moving helicopter just like a fast moving tank"
or
"Be aware of your shadow, try to keep it on dark vegetation or very rough terrain"
or
"Keep in mind the dust you could be kicking up flying NAP - that's a dead giveaway"

or .... Take your finger off the trigger prior to sneezing - whatever you got

Other end of the spectrum - when fueling from drums that may could contain water use a genuine chamois cloth to strain - it'll absorb water from the fuel.

[Courtney Mil]

Take your finger off the trigger prior to sneezing

Outstanding. Why did no one ever tell me that?

:ok:

[Evalu8ter]

Runon,
Iran/Iraq is a much overlooked campaign; you're right about Helo v FJ and helo v helo engagements. The full gamut of AA wpns were used. my personal 'favourites' are shooting a Maverick at a Super Frelon, a AIM-54 getting a multiple kill on a formation of Floggers, a Hind claiming an F4 with a sagger (!!) and Sea Cobras sneaking up on a Hind formation and hitting them with TOWs.

The Germans in WW2 were the first to try helo v fighter; much of what they discovered holds true today - in summary; a well flown helicopter at low level is a difficult target to visually acquire, track and successfully engage from a fixed wing platform. Yes, radar can make the job easier, likewise IR AAMs, but you can deploy tactics against both. As with all air combat the starting position, lookout (or lack of) luck and pilot ability all play a large part. I've had days where I couldn't get away with much (even against F3s....), and others when a pair of Typhoons have been simple to avoid. There are a whole lot of variables.

Flying really low is great fun, but not always tactically sound. You may prejudice some aspects of your countermeasures, consume too much fuel manoeuvring (and cause a higher noise signature and more glint), you might fly into an obstruction or kick up a dust trail.

Every theatre is different and the threat will dictate the tactic. Sometimes the weather or ac perf issues are the highest threat, sometimes it is the enemy. If you're military, you'll have Sqn guys who can fill in the blanks.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nap of the earth isn't always right if you fly into the wrong valley.

I flew the same route on successive days with two different pilots. One, by the book, crested the ridge at the prescribed minimum before pushing and descending into the valley.

The next day the other pilot skimmed the ridge well below the min altitude, I could look in to the door of a shepherds hut. He then descended below the valley tops but some 900 feet above the bottoms.

In the former case we would have been dead meat to a ZSU23-4 or SA. In the latter we could have quickly moved over the valley side to the next valley.

Read the terrain.

Another example, the planned track had us climbing over a ridge. The next map sheet had a Fan Song radar nicely placed to catch a ridge hopper. Flying around the high ground avoided early exposure.

[500N]

The book MACV-SOG by Major John Plaster
has some detailed stories in it on the use and loss
of helicopters in Vietnam, Laos et al.

Including what Renon said in his first paragraph.

[Runon]

Thank you Evalu8ter - Thank you Pontius Navigator.
That was what I was looking for. (I know it's different to really experience it, but for me your responses were the next best thing)

500N - thank you, gonna order up the book here in the next 15 minutes.

[OIFMedic]

yep still doing that way in 07 and 08 HOOAH