Handing back of medals

[AvionicToad]

It's very sad when a soldier hands back his medals

Ex-Windsor-based soldier hands back medals / Royal Borough Observer / News / Roundup (http://www.windsorobserver.co.uk/news/roundup/articles/2013/01/18/85946-exwindsorbased-soldier-hands-back-medals/)

Looks like there will be a debate on HM Forces justice though.

[Chugalug2]

What is sad is that we have a Border and Immigration Agency that equates summary disciplinary action by a soldier's CO with a Civil Criminal Conviction. But there again Tul Bahadur Pun, VC was told by them that he had not demonstrated close enough ties with the UK! If only they would expel themselves instead of our soldiers.

[Courtney Mil]

Expell some of the UKBF employees. Maybe not such a bad idea... ...or perhaps people that just come here because our benefit system is so generous. Am I allowed to say that? Doing this to a soldier with a good record of service is inexcusable. But not the first time we've seen this.

[Airborne Aircrew]

The government needs a good shoeing... These pricks are letting in any Achmed, Poitr or Tariq willy nilly while putting up any, tiny, objection to men and women who have served what seems to be exemplary terms in the military.

A new law is needed. The jobsworth who let's in someone undeserving is to be "repatriated" along with the undeserving. The jobsworth that objects to people who gave good service should be sent to the worst place the victim of their stupidity served.

[500N]

"while putting up any, tiny, objection to men and women who have served what seems to be exemplary terms in the military."

And I bet the jobsworth's don't all have perfect spic and span records.

As well as the fact that the military is held to a higher standard
than the jobsworths / civilians.


Why hasn't someone brought in a law that says if you serve in the UK
forces for XX years you can get citizenship and residency, plus, if you are wounded or earn any gallantry medal from MID upwards, this allows automatic citizenship and residency ?

Compare that to the article I saw in the UK papers the other day
about the lady and two sons who came over to the UK and she is
on 250+ a week benefits - plus her son is on the dole.
Can't find it in the DM.

[Lima Juliet]

'Iraqi benefit cheat refused to declare £36,000 in savings from father claiming it would have broken Sharia Law' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2259661/Iraqi-benefit-cheat-refused-declare-36-000-savings-father-claiming-broken-Sharia-Law.html?ito=feeds-newsxml)

EXCLUSIVE: IMMIGRANT sponger living off handouts REFUSES full-time job | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4753651/lithuanian-immigrant-youre-a-soft-touch.html)

Rotherham semi was (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/at-a-glance/main-section/rotherham-semi-was-engine-room-of-asian-sham-marriage-gang-1-5327323)

Ten-year passport deception of illegal immigrant family - Top Stories - Yorkshire Evening Post (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/ten-year-passport-deception-of-illegal-immigrant-family-1-5263096)

[500N]

Thanks Leon, that was it.

Made my mind boggle when I read it.

[Lima Juliet]

500N

That's just the thin edge of the wedge. All of these are from the past MONTH! :eek:

Here is another:

Jail for bigamist caught in Northern Ireland sting operation by border officials - Northern Ireland, Local & National - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/jail-for-bigamist-caught-in-northern-ireland-sting-operation-by-border-officials-16259111.html)

I'm sorry but I think my liberal streak has just about been erased - enough is enough, we are being fleeced! Fair play and politeness is a great British attribute, but we need to ensure we are fair to those that DESERVE (like the soldier) and deport/lock up those that don't to DETER.

LJ

PS. I'm all for multiculturalism, but then there is just criminalism. Benefit cheating, honour-killing and child-sex grooming might be a part of other's cultures but they're not welcome here.

[500N]

We get them here in Aus as well.

But I do agree with you, they (the UK Gov't) fight like tooth and nail
to stop the Gurkha's getting residency and this soldier because of one
fight yet SEEM to let in a whole range of people, give them benefits
without actually having done anything yet for the UK.

At least the soldier and / or the Gurkha's have or had already
served the country.

The fact it took Joanne Lumley IMHO really did put egg on
the UK Gov't's face.

[Lima Juliet]

Yeah, but at least your PM has the guts to speak out...

Australia's Prime Minister Julia Gillard attended the first Australian Multicultural Council lecture in Canberra on Wednesday 19th September 2012 and gave a speech in which she said that immigrants to Australia have a duty to abide by the law and to learn English. Ms Gillard spoke before the main speaker, Frank Lowy, the founder and chairman of the Westfield shopping mall group.


Ms Gillard spoke days after violent demonstrations in Sydney involving Muslims protesting against the creation of a Youtube film in the USA which is said to insult the Islamic prophet Mohammed. The demonstrations became violent and 400 demonstrators were involved in violence with the police outside the US consulate in the Sydney district of Hyde Park.


Eight protestors were arrested and charged with public order offences and two policemen were taken to hospital. Police Superintendent Mark Walton said that more arrests were likely once video footage of the riots have been examined.


Since the unrest, Muslim community leaders have condemned the violence as did politicians from all major political parties. However, fundamentalist pressure groups such as Hisb-ut-Tahrir condemned those who condemned the violence as 'anti-Islamic'.


The group issued a statement which said "the major issue with events in Sydney is not the violence, but the anti-Islamic agenda peddled by media and politicians, We encourage Muslims to continue in their noble work of resisting Western attacks, accounting the political establishment and media, and redoubling efforts to establish Islam and the Caliphate in the Muslim World."


Speaking at the inaugural Australian Multicultural Council Lecture event, Ms Gillard, who migrated to Australia from Wales as a child, said 'Multiculturalism is not just the ability to maintain our diverse backgrounds and cultures. It is the meeting-place of rights and responsibilities where the right to maintain one's customs, language and religion is balanced by an equal responsibility to learn English, find work, respect our culture and heritage and accept women as full equals.'


She added 'What we saw in Sydney at the weekend was not multiculturalism but extremism'.

[500N]

That is not a bad saying.

The first few waves of immigrants to Aus after the war were top notch,
they might have had their enclaves where they live but by god they
worked hard - and built some monumental things here - like the
Snowy Mountain River Hydro Electric scheme which was huge.

So it can work.

It seems to be SOME of the Lebbos, Muslim's and a few others who
don't seem to want to fit in.

[Octane]

Pardon my ignorance but how can someone serve for 13 years without being a citizen of the country they are fighting for? That someone is deemed worthy enough to serve in combat but not worthy enough for civilian life is nonsensical.
As an aside, how could someone be charged with treason if they aren't a citizen? Would a non citizen soldier have to be chaperoned throughout his/ her career re classified information, tactics, codes etc etc. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

I sincerely hope this person receives apologies and deserved recognition from the highest at the MoD so that he can resume his life with the dignity and respect he has so obviously earned. I'm sure the transition to civilian life is difficult enough as it is without having to deal with this nonsense.

Mr Balewai, I salute you. Good luck, I know you'll have many many people supporting you. Please keep your medals, you earned them and nobody can take that away from you....

Cheers
An angry Octane

[Tashengurt]

There seems to be two distinct camps of opinion in this country. The opinion of most sensible people who simply ask that people who live here and benefit from our state and its support abide by our laws, respect our culture and communities and do someting to earn what they're given.
Then we get the opposing view that we should embrace everyone and everything, bending over backwards to provide for all whatever their backgrounds.
Personally, I think much of this is because the media is a natural haven for Liberal thought and is also hugely influential. It has formed what is accepted as mainstream opinion and stamped on those who may dare challenge this view.
In essence, we've been brow beaten into accepting a vast change in our national identity without even realising it because everything we see or read tells us it's how it must be.
But what do I know?

[500N]

Tashengurt

Well said :ok:

[Faithless]

:ugh:

Another reason why the "Great" is no longer used with "Britain"!

But this clown gets to stay....for now :E

Abu Qatada 'intends to sue for £10m': Hate preacher wants compensation for years spent behind bars | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2234924/Abu-Qatada-intends-sue-10m-Hate-preacher-wants-compensation-years-spent-bars.html)

this stupid Government NEEDS to get a grip....It's amazing how many Guys & Gals are queuing up for the next round of redundancies. :mad: Who can blame them?

[AvionicToad]

What is sad is that we have a Border and Immigration Agency that equates summary disciplinary action by a soldier's CO with a Civil Criminal Conviction.

Unfortunately AFA06 changed all that. CO's Summary hearings are criminal convictions. Armed Forces Act 2006 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/52/schedule/1)

[Chugalug2]

AT:-
Unfortunately AFA06 changed all that. CO's Summary hearings are criminal convictions. Armed Forces Act 2006 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/52/schedule/1)
Which is yet another example of the rule of unexpected consequences. HM Forces are not a branch of the civilian population that just happen to wear uniform. They are, or should be, a disciplined body subject to the summary disposal of their subordinate commanders. Once that was tampered with, stuff like this happens. Or put it another way, be careful of what you wish for because it just might happen...
Of course it's the luck of the draw, and there are bad bosses and good bosses, but could it be that the seeming rise of the former over the latter is the result of having emasculated them (figuratively!) of any real discretionary powers, the consequences of having indifferent subordinate commanders is not seen as important as avoiding having mavericks? I had good bosses and all, to a certain extent, were mavericks forever trying the patience of their superiors on behalf of their subordinates. Doesn't happen much these days, I hear...

[baffman]

Quote:
Unfortunately AFA06 changed all that. CO's Summary hearings are criminal convictions. Armed Forces Act 2006 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/52/schedule/1)
Which is yet another example of the rule of unexpected consequences. HM Forces are not a branch of the civilian population that just happen to wear uniform. They are, or should be, a disciplined body subject to the summary disposal of their subordinate commanders. Once that was tampered with, stuff like this happens. Or put it another way, be careful of what you wish for because it just might happen...All sounds very plausible, EXCEPT that the difficulty arises from a change in the Immigration Rules in 2011 so that unspent convictions are now taken into account.

Unspent convictions under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 always included, and still do include if not spent, specified service disciplinary offences under the Army and Air Forces Acts of 1955 and the Naval Discipline Act 1957.

The situations before and after the Armed Forces Act 2006 are not an exact match. Without being in a position to check immediately in detail, I think that some disciplinary offences are now regarded as convictions for the purposes of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act when their equivalent might not have previously. If that is right, the significant change would have been in the Rehab of Offenders Act - and the Immigration Rules - not in service law itself.

[Climebear]

Details of what offences under the Armed Forces Act 2006 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/52/contents)are or are not Recordable Offences on the Police National Computer are detailed in Statutory Instrument 2009 No 1922 'The Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Armed Forces) Order 2009' (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/1922/contents/made). Luckily a summary of what is included is in Hansard as a response to a question (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110307/text/110307w0003.htm#1103083001191):

Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether criminal convictions of members of the armed forces are recorded on the Police National Computer. [41019]

Mr Robathan [holding answer 16 February 2011]: Yes. Recordable offences on the Police National Computer are those offences under section 42 of the Armed Forces Act 2006 for which the corresponding offences under the law of England and Wales are also offences that are recordable under regulation 3 of the National Police Records (Recordable Offences) Regulations 2000.

In addition, there are a number of service offences that are recordable. These are offences under the following sections of the Armed Forces Act 2006:

a. Section 11(1)—Misconduct towards a superior officer;

b. Section 14—Using force against a sentry, etc.;

c. Section 24(1)—Damage to or loss of public or service property;

d. Section 27—Obstructing or failing to assist a service policeman;

e. Section 28—Resistance to arrest, etc. (only in relation to a conviction under section 28(1)(b) or (c)—using violence or threatening behaviour);

f. Section 29—Offences in relation to service custody;

7 Mar 2011 : Column 805W

g. Section 30—Allowing escape, or unlawful release of prisoners, etc. (but only where the conviction is under section 30(4)(a));

h. Section 39—Attempts to commit any offences specified above; and

i. Section 40—Encouraging or assisting the commission of any offence above (apart from an attempt).

[baffman]

Thanks, Climebear. You will have noticed that that Order also refers to the Army Act 1955, Air Force Act 1955, and Naval Discipline Act 1957.

[glad rag]

@CM
Expell some of the UKBF employeesI won't say what I felt about the UKBF public servant who manned one of the desks at Gatwick immigration on my return from one of my conny jaunts...for the particular sin of not having read "the sign" about removing passports from their covers I was harangued and threatened with "being put to the back of the [long] queue no less....

...well I think it was the Queens English it spoke......funny how these little things stick in your mind and colour your opinions so disproportionally...

@500N
Why hasn't someone brought in a law that says if you serve in the UK
forces for XX years you can get citizenship and residency, plus, if you are wounded or earn any gallantry medal from MID upwards, this allows automatic citizenship and residency :D:D

[Climebear]

Thanks, Climebear. You will have noticed that that Order also refers to the Army Act 1955, Air Force Act 1955, and Naval Discipline Act 1957.

Thanks Baffman. I had but was trying to keep the post as brief as I could while still getting the key points across.

[500N]

glad rag

When i joined the Aussie Reserves while I worked out what I wanted to do
- I was staying in Aus regardless of what my parents did (ie go back to the UK), you had to be an Aussie citizen within a certain period so I got Naturalised straight away - and in Uniform which was a bonus !!!

I think they now have a certain period to stop people joining up
which allowed people to jump the queue, although now with the
way the military is run it's not as easy.

But in any case, I reckon whichever country you serve you should
be allowed to become a citizen after a set period or as I stated above.

[500N]

Nothing the crack 7.62 over their heads won't fix :O

Already a separate thread on the forum re the Muslim gangs.

[A2QFI]

Thanks 550N _ I was not aware = I have deleted mine

[airpac13]

Shame on the British Govt for this debacle. Here is a soldier giving his life for the country receiving 5 medals for gallantry in 13 years and this is the way he is treated. Besides he acted in self-defence in the altercation and was deemed a dishonourable soldier by his CO. He did win his appeal in the end but at what cost?.....

[Octane]

Can someone please answer my questions...

one of them was, how can a non citizen fight with HM forces...

[Molemot]

Glad Rag.....and anyone else in a similar situation.

I noticed towards the end of my time with the Immigration Service that some of my colleagues had developed a tendency to act in this manner. They have no right whatsoever to do so. If you encounter such unwarrantable rudeness, stand your ground and insist on seeing a Chief Immigration Officer (or whatever the Border Control equivalent is.) Explain calmly what has happened, remain even tempered and the situation will resolve itself. I have seen Immigration Officers harangue perfectly innocent business travellers, who shuttle back and forth between the USA and UK, because they haven't put the address of their hotel on their landing card. These cards, for bona fide travellers, were only counted for statistical purposes and then pulped. This particular traveller was told that he could be refused and sent back for his "offence"! Total nonsense, and indicative of the "bully boy" mentality referred to by glad rag.

Anyone who has served in UK armed forces should be entitled to citizenship, to my mind....in the same way that service in the French Foreign Legion gives French citizenship.

[AvionicToad]

Shame on the British Govt for this debacle. Here is a soldier giving his life for the country receiving 5 medals for gallantry in 13 years and this is the way he is treated. Besides he acted in self-defence in the altercation and was deemed a dishonourable soldier by his CO. He did win his appeal in the end but at what cost?.....


I think you've hit the nail on the head. UKBA have rules to follow and it was his CO who deemed he was a criminal of bad character. This is not the case at all, when faced with a judge and having access to legal advice at a de novo appeal he was found not guilty.

I have it on good authority that his Commanding Officer was quoted in saying that he was glad he would not be deported, however he believed that the judgement was incorrect. WTF?!? An experienced judge residing over criminal proceedings where the defendant had access to legal advice that could call witnesses was believed to be incorrect.

This is in contrast to a hearing in front of a non legally trained Commanding Officer, where he was marched in, pled guilty because he was unaware of the consequences and his Commanding Officer believes this is the correct way to administer justice.

Featured again in the times:-
Fijian soldier sends medals to Prince Charles over citizenship fight | The Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/defence/article3666583.ece)

Lord Dannatt, stated ‘The military must have its own criminal justice’ | The Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/defence/article3646513.ece) that the military must have its own criminal justice system. Military commanders are qualified to dish out punishment, he said. “A commanding officer is a relatively experienced person who understands the importance of the maintenance of good order and military discipline within his unit and will be rigorously fair.”

Was Bale's treatment rigorously fair?

I would be interested in any arguments that can be put forward as to why a Commanding Officer requires powers to reside over criminal proceedings rather than exclusively non criminal service discipline offences, and leaving criminal matters to Court Martial?

[500N]

I have read a few articles on this guy but have never seen
what medals he won.

Can someone list them ?

Thanks

[The Helpful Stacker]

I have read a few articles on this guy but have never seen
what medals he won.

Can someone list them ?

Thanks

From memory (of a thread relating to this article on Arrse).

- GSM 62 with NI Clasp
- NATO with FRY Claso
- OSM with Iraq Clasp.
- OSM with Afghanistan Clasp
- QGJM.

Confusingly though news reports vary with regards number (4 or 5) of medals handed back.

[baffman]

Can someone please answer my questions...
one of them was, how can a non citizen fight with HM forces... Briefly:

1. Nationals of other Commonwealth countries can enlist in HM UK armed forces and normally retain their original citizenship throughout their service. (Incidentally, Gurkha soldiers in the British Army are normally Nepali nationals and not Commonwealth citizens.)

2. As you rightly say, not being a UK citizen can limit the individual in terms of security clearances required by officers and specialists.

3. The crime of treason depends on "allegiance", not necessarily on passport held.

[glad rag]

...carrying on from earlier above..

UKBA backlogs: Inspectors find thousands of new cases (http://www.pprune.org/UKBA backlogs: Inspectors find thousands of new cases)

At the time of the inspection last year, the marriage-related backlog was growing at a rate of 700 cases a month.


Lin Homer, who headed the Border and Immigration Agency and later the UK Border Agency, between 2005 and 2010, is currently chief executive of HM Revenue and Customs. :D

[Riskman]

Can someone please answer my questions...
one of them was, how can a non citizen fight with HM forces... Everyone who joins the Armed Forces swears an oath, on attestation or commissioning "...to be loyal to the Queen, Her Heirs and Successors, Officers appointed....etc" so treason depends on breaking the oath. I can remember the occasion but not the words; it was 40 years ago.

R

[NutLoose]

Personally if you serve in the UK military for a minimum defined period, citizenship should be a right.

[Chugalug2]

Avionic Toad:-
...it was his CO who deemed he was a criminal of bad character.
I'm sure that you have an informed (professional even?) take on this, but did the CO really deem that?
I'm not backing the CO, I don't know him and there are no doubt as many poor CO's as ever there were. The charge was for an offence against Military Law, but was it a criminal offence under military law?
If some administrative process has linked summary military offences with civilian criminal ones, is that not where the "deeming" has happened, and from where the unintended consequences originate?
I'm sure that there are many technical howlers in my proposition, but can you see where I'm coming from? It's one thing to link Court Martial convictions with Civilian ones, but quite another for Summary convictions, no matter the plea, with those of a Civilian Court.
I still maintain that this "harmonisation" of Military life with the Civilian one is a fundamental error and is slowly underminding Service discipline.

[AvionicToad]

Chugalyg - Bale had a conviction for battery an (offence under section 39 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (c. 33) (assault and battery). This is what the charge paperwork would have said, and the burden of proof and seriousness of that charge should be the same under military law and civil law. Bale could have been trailed for any number of alternative non recordable service offences, (indeed the army before his appeal de novo attempted to add a new charge).

He genuinely did not know that he had this conviction, or the implications of it. I speak from personal experience because the same thing happened to me.
'Military justice left me unaware I had criminal conviction' - Channel 4 News (http://www.channel4.com/news/military-justice-criminal-conviction-raf-tom-deacon)

The very fact that he was unaware of a criminal conviction that he did not contest at a summary hearing, and was later found not guilty is unbelievable.

Why does one person need all that power completely unchecked? Why not leave criminal matters to court martial and the CO can still punish etc without ruining people's lives long after they have left HM Forces?