Deicing for light aircraft?

[Contacttower]

So with the snow coming down thoughts turn to one of the winter headaches...

Now usually I'm using an aircraft that lives in a hangar so it's not such a problem at base but nonetheless a lot of airports in this country seem to have no arrangements for the deicing of light aircraft. Which has the potential to be rather disruptive to doing trips that will involve leaving the aircraft outside at a snowy airfield for a few days.

If it's just a bit of frost on a small low wing aircraft it doesn't take too long to just brush it all off. But a larger high winged aircraft, even say a C182 with a few mms of frost or snow over all the wings can soon be a bit of problem.

On a recent flight to Glasgow for example I had this concern, I was told they only had Type II deicing fluid which as I understand it is not suitable for light aircraft because it doesn't break off the wings until 100kts+. My other possible options were to bring my own Kilfrost in a sprayer or try and make some makeshift covers for the wings.

So my questions are...

Is it safe to transport Kilfrost in the aircraft considering it is flammable and could be hazardous if spilled? Do people do this?

In people's experience do many airports in the UK carry type I fluid that one can safely use on light aircraft?

[seat 0A]

Why would you want to fly in a SEP plane in conditions that require de-icing anyway? Just don't go. By far the safest solution.
De-icing fluid goes everywhere. It leaves a great deal of muck in every hole you can think of. Just avoid it alltogether. Take the train.

[A and C]

The best way to De-ice is to put the aircraft in a warm hanger.

Flying conditions and the need to deice are two wholly different issues.

[Contacttower]

Why would you want to fly in a SEP plane in conditions that require de-icing anyway? Just don't go. By far the safest solution.

Because when it's gin clear and CAVOK but has got down to -10 the night before there is no reason not to fly...it just takes a very long time to get several mms of ice off the wings when one has quite a large aircraft or lets say rain from the previous night has frozen solid on the wings and is very difficult to get off.

The best way to De-ice is to put the aircraft in a warm hanger.

Yes I am of course aware of this... as I stated in my post the aircraft usually lives in a hangar at my home airport. But as you no doubt know that is not always a possibility or is at prohibitively high cost.

[mad_jock]

How big is your bladder?

Got a right telling off from LBA tower de-icing natures way once.

Also leaving ones IR instructor in the middle of the runway after powering up and rolling forward mid flow is rewarded with terrets levels of swearing. And a Twr controller that can't give a TO clearance due to "pissing" himself laughing.

[mad_jock]

And alot of airlines request Type I as well. If flybe are about the airport it likely to have it.

But....


Alot of the time you will get a rig charge for the sprayer and the stuff costs more than Avgas.

You won't get much change from 500-600 quid.

And the old stuff that used to work was pigs piss. And ask any engineer it was less corrosive than the new enviromentally friendly crap clearway or what ever its called that they use now.

[tmmorris]

I'm with A and C, but then I would be as I fly one of his ac which is indeed in a heated hangar. Luxury. I had a lovely flight yesterday with temperatures never above -1C.

Tim

[Doodlebug]

Mr Tower, we operated a machine for a number of years in cold climes, constantly battling with the owners' representatives who felt the cost of washing the aircraft regularly during winter was an unnecessary evil. When the time came for the aircraft to be sold the pre-purchase found corrosion in six belly-panels, within the trailing-edges, as well as underneath the slats. Obscene cost to get it seen to, so much so that the multi-billionaire owners' eyes were watering. Given the corrosive properties of the de-icing gunk, perhaps you could consider viewing the occasional thirty minutes spent with a stiff-bristled brush before committing aviation as morning calisthenics?

[Doodlebug]

Ok, here's something more more useful:

allwetter, bezüge, allweather, covers, clouddancers | www.clouddancers.de (http://www.clouddancers.de/)

They should be able to sort you out with some custom covers. Even a large-span gliders' covers take just a few minutes to install/remove. They do not weigh much nor do they take up much space.

[Contacttower]

Thanks for people's replies...

Perhaps I didn't make my initial post particularly clear but so far the answers haven't been particularly relevant to what I'm really asking.

I fly a reasonable amount and have access to a FIKI approved SEP and sometimes fly light twins as well. While I don't deliberately seek out bad weather obviously I do like to make use of my rather expensive EASA Muti-IR and answers like 'don't go flying' or 'keep the aircraft in a hangar' are all very well but are not really relevant to me when I'm at an airport in Europe or something on a several day trip and I need to get a load of ice and snow off the aircraft. It may come as a surprise to some that there are actually some people out there who like to use light aircraft beyond a fair weather jaunt for a £100 handburger (although I often enjoy that sort of flying too).

I was primarily asking about deicing for the purposes of removing existing contamination but while we are on the subject there is no reason why one shouldn't depart while it is snowing in a deiced and FIKI light aircraft.

And alot of airlines request Type I as well. If flybe are about the airport it likely to have it.

Thanks MJ, apparently not at Glasgow though. I generally have a policy of inquiring about hangars and deicing whenever I anticipate an issue with either ice or high winds and the aircraft will be left over night and my perception is that most airports are not very well set up for supplying suitable deicing fluid for light aircraft. Even if one can get type I as you say it is very expensive.

I was therefore wondering if anyone could share any experiences of airports being about to supply small quantities of fluid at reasonable cost?

Obscene cost to get it seen to, so much so that the multi-billionaire owners' eyes were watering. Given the corrosive properties of the de-icing gunk, perhaps you could consider viewing the occasional thirty minutes spent with a stiff-bristled brush before committing aviation as morning calisthenics?

Good point but I would only anticipate needing to deice a few times a year so would not have thought that it would be an issue. Also if the aircraft did need cleaning after a flight due to the fluid I would have no issue either doing that or arranging for it to be done. Yes if the contamination isn't bad then 30 mins might be all it takes to remove it. But I did once have the experience of having rain from the previous night freeze solid onto the wings, no way it was coming off with a brush and even with a scraper would have taken a lot longer than 30 mins to brush off and involved a ladder to get to the wings.

All of the above prompted me to ask the question about the transportation in a light aircraft of products like Kilfrost. Is it a definite no-no or could it be a solution to the problem I've already outlined of deicing away from base?

[Contacttower]

Ok, here's something more more useful:

Yep covers are something that I have considered, including just taking some dust sheets and weighing them down with something.

[mad_jock]

Who did you ask at glasgow?

If Greers says you can't get it you won't be able to.

Although they might have a backpack unit for the ambulance flight.

I am sure I have used type I there before but that was years ago.

[Contacttower]

Who did you ask at glasgow?

Signature...I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that they would know...

[mad_jock]

Greers are your best bet. Signature you get the full range of useless up to quite switched on depending who you are talking to. Some bases can be a bit snobbie with props and yet others are brillant with them such as Aberdeen.

Greers is a more local handler and the ramp rats always seemed quite switched on and helpful with things with fans on them. They have a base at Edi if you want to go there as well. The ramp rats at Edi are good as well in my experence which unfortunately is a few years ago now.

[Contacttower]

Thanks MJ. I mean Signature Glasgow do have a good reputation I believe and indeed when I used them they were in all other ways very good (as you'd expect for the price!) they just claimed that only type II fluid was available.

One sort of expects that when you are at an unfamiliar airfield when all you have to go on is what is written in the AIP and what the handler is telling you that they should be able to procure whatever you need for your flight...and if they can't get it it doesn't exist. Now in this case ice was not forecast and did not materialise so it was a non issue, but at this time of year it very well could have been one...

[mad_jock]

I have always used greers because they have there own fuel bowser for Jet A and you can get through thier entrance without having to go through the main terminal. That might have changed.

If you phone Menzies they more than likely had it. I think they do flybe in GLA. Flybe usually request type I as part of there handling contract.

If you ask the Signature in quite a few places for certain services they will say no because its across on the restricted area and also they won't have an account with the rig operator same with high load GPU's as well. It gets stupid in some airports with the links between the different ground handling services.

To be honest you really don't want the stuff near your aircraft. It bloody horrible on a pressurised hull with decent seals. I would hate to imagine the mess of it getting sprayed onto a unsealed spam can. Years later you would be finding dollops of gel.

[Contacttower]

To be honest you really don't want the stuff near your aircraft. It bloody horrible on a pressurised hull with decent seals. I would hate to imagine the mess of it getting sprayed onto a unsealed spam can. Years later you would be finding dollops of gel.

Indeed that's why Kilfrost would be my preferred option, in fact that is what Signature suggested when I phoned them in advance...I'm just concerned about the fire hazard for flying with the stuff in the baggage compartment.

To be honest this has been an issue only a few times that I can remember, on one occasion I just left the plane in the sun for about half and hour, another I just spent a very long time with a ladder...and then the sun did the rest while I charged the flat battery for the rest of the day...:E

As a PPL though often flying to larger airports in quite bad weather I try and think of every possible eventuality and I'm often concerned at the apparent lack of support in general that light aircraft get to resolve issues in general. Hence thinking about this issue...

[007helicopter]

Contact use Kilfrost in a garden type spray container and we always carry it in the containers it comes in for use in the Cirrus.

It is a wee bit messy but does not seem to leave any significant residue.

[RatherBeFlying]

After an interesting low level tour of the ravine at the end of a runway after what I thought was a conscientious mechanical scraping off of frost between rivet lines, I took to carrying a couple jugs of automotive windshield washer. A squeegee with sponge under mesh was also carried.

While it is not an "approved" fluid, once the contamination is off and the fluid has evaporated, who cares.

While I do not know if it has any deleterious effects on aircraft components, it doesn't seem to hurt anything automotive.

My lawyer tells me to add: The stuff is only good for removal; it does nothing to prevent accumulation.

[FC80]

Your handling agent info is pretty duff, mad_jock - Greer never had a base at Glasgow and the Edinburgh one was closed and the premises swallowed up by Signature years ago.

:zzz:

[mad_jock]

Thats proberly fair comment.

Shame about EDI that was a good base and the folk that ran it were good.

[Contacttower]

Contact use Kilfrost in a garden type spray container and we always carry it in the containers it comes in for use in the Cirrus.

007 do you actually transport it in the plane though?

[007helicopter]

Contact yes we do, both in spare containers in the baggage area as well as of course the tank in the for the anti ice system.

I know a lot of people that do carry it and if there is a fire risk I must admit to not being aware so would suggest you give them a call they have always been very helpful.

(Ps next friday I am there I will more thoroughly read the storage guidelines on the containers)

[Contacttower]

Do you know which type you have? Just looking at their website some seem to be flammable and others not.

Just had a look at my container of their Rapid Deice Fluid and it has a massive flammable symbol on it...hence my concern about transporting it.

However looking at the respective product descriptions...here (http://www.kilfrost.com/subdomain/admin/documents//Datasheets_WWF%20Mod3_English%20NEW.pdf) and here (http://www.kilfrost.com/subdomain/admin/documents//Datasheets_TKS_English%20NEW.pdf) I notice that at least one of the TKS fluids is listed as nonflammable. Not sure how effective that would be as a ground deicer though.

[doubleu-anker]

Sorry to hijack a very good thread but has anyone every tried a smear of vegetable oil, over say the leading edge of wings and propeller? Maybe over the all the upper flying services.

I am sure it must have some antiicing/deicing properties as it would repel moisture.

Surely there must have been trails in the past.

[Richard Westnot]

Baby oil, surely ;)

I was watching a Beech 200 getting deiced and I think the bill was iro £1,000.00 inc vat :{

[mad_jock]

TP's stick some stuff called ice-ex I think its called on the rubber boots and prop de-icers. 75 quid for 750ml

[VP-F__]

assuming it is soft snow then a soft broom does a perfectly good job. It won't remove ice though and be careful to make sure control links/hinges are clear. Also avoid clearing the windshield this way to avoid scratches.

[007helicopter]

CTT - we use Kilfrost R328. 4 x 5lts is £156.66 inc vat & delivery.

Not cheap !!

I do not yet know about the flamability issue but should be flying Saturday and will take a look on the drums.

It will assist on the ground in removing frost but not lumps of ice.

[cockney steve]

DOUBLEU....Whilst Veg. oil (~£1.30 a litre) "might" work, it'd leave an unholy ,sticky mess on the paintwork and be the devil's own job to remove. It also thickens and oxidises in atmospheric contact, contrary to popular opinion it can also become acidic :eek: not to mention it's a dirt 'n dust magnet.

Richard Westnot has a better approach....me , being :8 I read the labels of almost everything (read instruction-books as well! )

Baby oil = Liquid Paraffin (the B.P or BPC type -IE Medicinal ) sometimes with added perfume - It's much thinner, very "oily" and washes off readily.....local pharmacy may look a bit oddly if you're not 40 stone but buying by the gallon :}

The prices bandied about here are totally unrealistic,- so, lateral thinking.

ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL.(isopropanol)..close to Ethyl (booze) and Methyl (wood/madness /blinding) alcohols.... It's more viscous , still readily water-soluble and is readily obtained in 25 litre kegs from Printer's suppliers.
(used, with water, to wet the "blankets" in offset-lithograph machines, IIRC ) should work a treat and will evaporate completely.

Car windscreen-washer fluid...= isopropyl + dye (usually blue) +???

Comes concentrated , or ready to use.....Why pay for water?....buy concentrate and dilute as appropriate , yourself.

Car(automotive ) antifreeze....cheap stuff used to be methanol (methyl alcohol) not available nowadays, which leaves

polyalkalene GLYCOL and Monoethylene glycol which both have colourant and CORROSION INHIBITORS in them. As you may be aware, this stuff in your Merc /Ferrari/Rolls/ Bentley at 25% strength, will protect down to ~-25*C whilst stopping electrolytic corrosion between all the mix of metals in the automotive cooling system.

IF i were an aircraft owner, I'd use it neat as a de-icer... around £1.50/litre in a 25 litre keg from an auto-factors. probably a lot dearer from accessory shops. spray-on (garden pressure-spray is ideal) non-flammable, water-soluble, non-reactive with mixed-metals....seems to tick ALL the boxes. A lot cheaper than £8 /lit. for "kilfrost"

I'd be interested in an Industrial chemist's viewpoint.. So many "specialised" chemical products are, in fact, very basic feedstock chemicals with a bit of fancy packaging and promotion and a massive price-uplift.

[silverknapper]

We used to carry a garden sprayer with kill frost in it. Worked very well. Purely for very very light frost, and to avoid the €400 call out and €4 per litre cost. Especially from a high powered rig which delivers it in units of 10 l.
I've never seen reasonable de icing, or anyone waive the call out. I'd be in favour of covers also. Paid for in one or two de ices, and handy all year round. Alternatively wait for the sun to melt it.

I was primarily asking about deicing for the purposes of removing existing contamination but while we are on the subject there is no reason why one shouldn't depart while it is snowing in a deiced and FIKI light aircraft.
I can think of several. De icing isn't anti icing. And anti icing isn't good for light aircraft anyway. And boots or TKS won't help your wing surface.

[turbroprop]

Regardless of which type of fluid you use, if you do de-ice your aircraft it is worth checking advice from CAA. Certain fluids have been known to re-hydrate in aerodynamic quiet areas, causing control restrictions on unpowered flying control systems fitted to jet and turbroprop aircraft. Even if following an approved de-icing schedule it would be prudent to follow the CAA advice even on a light aircraft.

[mad_jock]

Kilfrost TKS 406B Aircraft In-Flight Ice Protection Fluid : LOW PRICES at SkyGeek.com (http://www.skygeek.com/kilfrost-tks406b-ice-protection-fluid.html)

Its classed as Hazmat Group III class 3

It seems to me and I am no expert, that the stuff that you lot are using is a type II deicing product when in actual fact you should be using a type I product because all you want to do it get rid of the contamination. I presume you are not going to be departing into icing conditions afterwards are you? If you are you need a type II product which then gives you anti-ice hold over protection.

The R328 is designed for a weeping wing anti ice protection in the air.
Its not meant to be used for de-icing on the ground.

de-ice first using a Type I fluid then turn the weeping wing system on and go flying.

I think you need Killfrost RDF which doesn't have a published Hazmat sheet which means it should be good to have in the aircraft unlike 406 or 328.

Maybe I am wrong though.

[007helicopter]

The R328 is designed for a weeping wing anti ice protection in the air.

Which is exactly what we use it for, our aircraft is not FIKI and I do not intentionally fly into known icing.

Its not meant to be used for de-icing on the ground.

Agreed but we carry it anyway and it certainly does assist in removing a level of frost on the ground and therefore comes in useful and convenient for that occasional purpose.

[A and C]

There are a number of types of fluid avalable for De-icing aircraft, the UK industry normaly uses type 2 or type 4 fluids these provide a good hold over time ( the time that the fluid is effective) in adverse weather conditions, this is achived because the fluid has a thickening agent that results in the fluid sticking to the aircraft untill it exceeds an airspeed in excess of 100 Kt.

Use of these fluids has dangers to light aircraft as the fluid will stay stuck to the wings long after the ( hopefully ) aircraft gets into the air and will have a detrimental effect on aircraft performance.

Type 3 fluids have less thickening agents and are removes by air speeds of less than 100 Kt so these might be OK to use with higher performance light aircraft.

Type 1 fluids are the only fluids that you should be using on light aircraft as they are a thin liquid and run off the aircraft quickly and so don't have the low speed aerodynamic performance problems of the other fluids have. These fluids are also the cheapest but they don't have a very good hold over time in adverse weather. This is the favored fluid in Scandinavia due to cost, the hold over time issues are not usually a problem because the De-icing is carred out very near to the holding point enabling the aircraft to get airborne very quickly after De-icing.

As light aircraft are not likely to be flying in adverse weather the poor hold over time is not likely to be an issue when using type 1 fluids.

[Contacttower]

Well I emailed Kilfrost and asked about the safety of transporting Kilfrost RDF (which is the fluid I've used before, it is applied cold and melts off existing ice) in the aircraft and this is the response I got...

It is correct that RDF is highly flammable.(I attach the Technical data sheet with this reply). Assuming that the back pack sprayer is compatible with RDF then we see no reason why it can’t be used to transport the fluid as long as it is kept away from direct heat and strong oxidizing agents. We will of course advise that when transferring RDF it should be stored in tightly sealed original containers.

[mad_jock]

Whats the rules for transporting dangerous goods on private flights?