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Go-Around
17th Apr 2002, 20:52
So, here I am with a shiny new JAA CPL/IR.
Where exactly can I be paid to use it?
In all the member states??
Possibly, but what good is working there if you don't have the right to live there.
So, where can I legally live and earn money using my JAA (JOINT Aviation Authorities CPL/IR.
There must be loads of places, seeing as a lot of "foreigners" come to the UK to work?
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people coming to work in this country, i.e other Europeans with the same licence, as long as the deal is reciprocal.
So, what are my chances of getting a job in say, France, Spain, Holland, Germany etc?
Pretty slim I reckon.
What can be done?

Dutchman
18th Apr 2002, 09:13
Theoretically its possible, practically it’s a bitch trying to find work in foreign JAA countries. Especially since the 11th. But that shouldn’t stop you from trying (you have a no and could always get a yes). The major problem with working in other countries is the language most airlines require you to have basic>good knowledge of their native language. This isn’t a problem for pilots wanting to work in the UK as English is spoken by all pilots.

left outer, right inner
18th Apr 2002, 13:01
Not in ATC, they don't always speak english!

:p :eek:

LORI

Red Snake
19th Apr 2002, 08:17
If you are a citizen of an EU member country you have the automatic right to live and work in any other EU member country.

Note that this is not the same as the member states of the JAA. If you want a job in a country that has signed up the JAA regulations but is not an EU country, you will need a work permit for that country.

To work for an airline in any country, you will be severly disadvantaged if you don't speak the lingo. And getting an airline job anywhere right now is really challenging.

xabi200
19th Apr 2002, 11:33
hey guys,

well, JAA is still an illusion. Not all JAA licence are equal and gives you the right to work in any JAA country.

Take me for example i've got a JAA CPL/IR issued by the UK CAA done with BAE SYSTEM (spain and australia) and I'm not allowed to work in France.
They are saying that training outside is not allowed by the JAR FCL.
They are two kind of JAA licence "clean ones" done 100% by JAR FCL rules and the other not valid in France,Germany,sweden,Swisstzerland, Netherlands and maybe Belgium.

By training outside they mean training outside the country which issues the licence, like spain, eventhough it is europe. Because they did validate UK JAR licence as long as the entire training had been done in the UK

Untill now I thought that the french DGAC were ******s but I start to realize that they may not be all that wrong.

So my problem now is I paid(A LOT OF MONEY) for a 100% JAR FCL training in order to get a JAR licence valid everywhere. It is not the case, whose fault is it?

I did my training integrated so I would not have to worry about anything.

The school?The UK CAA? The french? Obviously I did not get what I paid for, I feel really cheated.

Any solicitor around?

simon brown
19th Apr 2002, 13:12
XABI 200

Ive nothing but sympathy for you. You've been well an truly shafted by the faceless, procrasinating, talentless bureaucrats that preside over the rest of us!

I'm looking at giving up my job in IT and going down the JAA/ATPL route, have done lots of research, gone to all the Flight Training Seminars, read detailed articles in all the leading aviation related magazines and didnt know the predicament you are in could arise.I have been researching for about 2 years on and off!

Havent any of the major aviation publications picked up these sort of pitfalls yet ?, and publicised them in high profile articles.

I get the impression its hard enough getting a job having spent a fortune on an intensive training course let alone falling foul of incompetence of the legislators.

The more threads I read in this site the more disillusioned I am becoming a professional pilot. It is becoming a real eye opener. I think it would be better to re mortgage the flat, buy a second hand aeroplane and fulfill my flying aspirations at weekends.

SB

Becoming a professional pilot is like trying to thread an octupuss thro a venetian blind whilst totally blindfolded

xabi200
19th Apr 2002, 13:30
hey simon,

the licence eventhough it is not valid in ALL JAA states is valid in more countries than the old CAP509 so it is a bit better.

Hopefully I'll get back to you guy saying here it is MY fIRST JOB,I actually have some hope this days.

But your quote is quite right.

Cheers

pilota-italiano
19th Apr 2002, 15:40
Hi GO Around,

Have you aplied to airlines based in other countryes? You have a full JAA ATPL so there are no reasons why you should not be able to get a job in Germany,Holland,Spain, ETC.....

The thing is that "foreigners" that get jobs in the UK can have an interview in a reasonable english(which helps) and the fact that english is the official language for aviation doesn't mean that the interviews in other cauntryes must be done in english ,so this is ,I think ,a point to consider,as someone else has already pointed out to you.

However I know English pilots who worked abroad withot knowing a word of Italian,Spanish...etc....so yes it's possible !!!

My point is :

HAVE YOU APPLIED TO ANY AIRLINE OUTSIDE THE UK?

Lots of Luck !!!!

PI

Go-Around
19th Apr 2002, 18:56
To be honest, I can't really see the point in applying.
Not only is there a lack of jobs, I find it hard to believe that a Spanish, French or German (the languages I can get by in) company would offer me an interview, let alone a job.

mutt
20th Apr 2002, 03:33
Go Around,

Let me get this straight, you are complaining about not getting a job in Europe with your nice shiny JAR FCL, but you havent applied for ANY........

There is an old saying...... "get off your a5se".....

Mutt.

Freak On A Leash
20th Apr 2002, 11:14
Go-Around,
As it seems that you`ve just got your CPL then you probably have around 250 hours total time.Try hanging around your local airport (or some nearby airports) to see if you can meet someone, i.e. someone who can hook you up with a local outfit. Airtaxi might be a good start.
Have you thought about getting an instructor`s rating?You might just learn something and meet some nice people.

Don`t think that just because you have a CPL that the airlines are going to run down your door to get you to work for them - you need to get out and look around a bit.It`s not easy at all, but don`t give it up without trying your best.That just makes you a statistic.

Go-Around
20th Apr 2002, 18:30
Of course I've applied to every Airline/Air Taxi/ Parachute Dropping etc etc in the entire UK, I just honestly do not see the point of applying for any jobs in Europe.
Can anyone honestly say that they have applied for a job with 250hrs in a foreign country and got one?

NoJoke
20th Apr 2002, 19:48
Dear chap,

I am sorry for your predicament. Lets put it another way, I have 9,000 + on helicopters and Airline jets. 3,000 hrs jet command including EFIS. The jobs are thin on the ground even for me. So did you think before your Dad spent 50,000 quid that your timing was a little off?

ruby ruby roo
20th Apr 2002, 22:22
Sorry Go-Around, but with out being rude, I can't believe that you are so naive!!
You quote "So, here I am with a shiny new JAA CPL/IR" which you must have put some seriously hard work to achieve and your asking where you can and cant work!!!
It's as if your saying...Ok, well I've got this little licence, what do I do now?
Didn't you put some serious thought into it before you took the plunge or is No Joke a little close to the bone?
Good Luck anyway..... :rolleyes:

Go-Around
20th Apr 2002, 23:37
No, I am not that naive. I know exactly where I can and cannot work.
I also know where most non British people can work, right here in Britain.
I started my training long before September 11th, and I knew a job would be hard to get even then. Now it's doubly hard.
I did not expect to walk into a right hand seat of a jet. That is why I am currently tugging gliders for food and accomodation all summer to build up my experience, and trying to beg, steal and borrow to do an FIC.
The original intention of this post was to highlight the total lack of equal opportunities in Europe at the moment.
You do hear a lot of "foreign" voices on the RT nowadays, Easy XXX, Suckling XXX etc. I wonder how many British voices you hear on KLM XXX, Quantas XXX?

Jockflyer
21st Apr 2002, 00:04
Err......Go-around, I'm guessing this would be a good time to quit this argument. I suspect your not making many friends.

I've been qualified for 18 months, and I'm just about to start my first job in Zambia, so I'll be a Brit abroad, working for a foreign company.

Its best to try and make friends with people in the industry, and I'd suggest moaing ain't going to help.

Cheer up:)

Luke SkyToddler
21st Apr 2002, 07:07
The original intention of this post was to highlight the total lack of equal opportunities in Europe at the moment.
You do hear a lot of "foreign" voices on the RT nowadays, Easy XXX, Suckling XXX etc. I wonder how many British voices you hear on KLM XXX, Quantas XXX?

Yeah nice one go-around ... I wondered how long it would be before this discussion about Euro licences degenerated into cheap shots at downunder pilots, and foreigner bashing in general :mad:

All those 'foreign' voices you hear on the radio are holders of JAA professional licences. They are in fact just as entitled to work, not only in the UK, but all over Europe, as you are. What happens with regard to licence recognition within the European states affects them just as much as it does you, so get your facts straight.

As it happens, you will in fact have quite a good chance of hearing a British voice on a Qantas flight - most of them are the ones who came rushing down in '89 to fill all the gaps created overnight by the striking pilots in the great dispute. Have a good think about that before you post presumptuous and offensive comments about 'foreigners' in UK aircraft again.

Wee Weasley Welshman
22nd Apr 2002, 12:24
Calm it down gents.

WWW

Go-Around
22nd Apr 2002, 22:11
I am very cheery :) I consider myself extremely fortunate to be in the position I am, I appreciate how many people never get the opportunity that I've had, and I'm not taking a cheap shot at anybody, in fact good luck to anyone who gets a job in these difficult times.

Maybe my original post should have been, "Where, as a Brit, am I allowed to pack up and move to and work, no questions asked?"
Maybe it's more of a work permit question? (Qantas was a bad example!:o)
Kind of worrying that if the 965 different views of this post, only 1 person is a Brit working abroad.

Big apologies if i've offended anyone. :rolleyes:

Red Snake
23rd Apr 2002, 13:46
It's all a question of attitude. I'm a swedish national, married to a brit. I've flown commercially in the U.S., Britain & Germany (and tried in Sweden, but I failed the interview). I never found any particular country easier or harder than the other, just different. And of all nationalities I've come across in aviation, you meet brits everywhere. It seems to me that those that want to, and try, succeed.

Slotted-Flap
23rd Apr 2002, 13:59
Never judge a persons nationality by their accent. The Downunders more than likely have the same colored passport as you.

Still Flappin':p

piperindian
23rd Apr 2002, 19:29
i have applied across europe. a few toughts

France : you need to speak french and they dont recognize JAR licenses
Scandinavian countries (Sweden, Denmark..) you need to speak at least one scandinavian language
Germany : was not JAR until recently, you need to speak German

so there are two barriers : bureaucratic red tape and language
Note that you theoretically stand a chance before a court if you sue the French DGAC if they refuse to recognise your JAR license.

Red Snake
24th Apr 2002, 07:42
Language is a barrier anywhere if you don't speak the local lingo. Try getting a job in Britain or the U.S. without speaking english.

Native english speakers have an incredible advantage in aviation. You can hardly call it unfair if knowledge of the local language is required in many other countries.

pilota-italiano
24th Apr 2002, 22:19
Hi go around,

may I point out to you the post from xabi200 "positive insight for job seekers" in this forum.....Have a good luck it could be very motivating for everyone...

Regards,

PI:cool: