Dreaming of flying a jet (specially to you older guys!)

[truckflyer]

"Flying is hours of boredom, punctuated by moments of stark terror."

Here I am today, "living the dream"

Yet the dream does not feel like a dream anymore! Maybe my message should also go as a stark warning to those "older wannabes", who believe this is what is missing in their life!

Against most odds, I got into the business, which was my "dream" - however already on my first observer day, my dreams was shattered to pieces! 4 sectors across Europe in one day on the jump seat, I was destroyed when I returned to my bed to have a rest! Guess what, not a long rest, I barely had closed my eyes, before I had to wake up again, and go for another day of observer flights!

Now this has become my everyday life - and feeling what I do now it makes me wonder, was this really the dream I thought it was?

Yes I am living the "dream!"

Looking back over the years, the sacrifices, the money I spent, the fractures of my relationship, the time I am loosing with my daughter, the things I could have done with that "money" that I have already spent!

I get up 3.30 in the morning, and get back at 17.00, and than next morning up again 3.30 - vow... yes, I am flying a shiny jet, vow... what a dream!! :ugh:

And how much money did I make for those hours of work? Hmm. Hard to give an exact number, but probably around £150, seriously, are you kidding me, you might think that is great money!
However I had a business, still have it by the way, where I make more money in an afternoon, I actually was home few days last week, and made £1500 with few hours work within 4 - 5 days

Now what can I say, I got what I wanted, or so it seemed, do I enjoy it? I enjoy parts, but are those parts I enjoy worth all the hours I am stuck in that metal tin?

I am not meaning to offend anybody, but besides the Take Off / departure and the Approach / Descent - and landing, 90% of the job is DEAD BORING! It does my head in to sit there for hours and hours, doing nothing, besides read some FCOM or some other "useful" literature, to enhance my aviation career!

Now I do admit, maybe if I got home to my family a bit more often, and maybe if the pay was better, I would not feel so let down by what I thought was my "dream" - however that does still not cover over the fact of all those hours of boredom!

But thinking about the "freedom" I have lost, the income from the job, the loss of family life, commuting lifestyle, where of course your roster will never be adapted to give you the chance to travel home on your working day, you always have to commute on your off days!

So you "older" guys specially, who are considering to follow your dream, beware - it might not be exactly as you imagine it to be! I do miss GA, and in many ways think I probably would have had more fun flying around in a small PA28 - than again back in 2006, when I started to think about startng to fly again, a friend of mine, who was a 74 captain, tried to tell me that it was maybe not as it seemed!
But did I listen? Of course - not that much, and neither will probably you either, but considering the facts with the cost of training and time lost with family and friends!

Can you imagine the pleasure and fun I could have had with my family, if I had spent the money on them, instead of CPL / ME/IR + + , do I now have regrets?

I can't have regrets, because if I had not tried I would never have known, I got what I deserved and what I asked for!
Having known the facts I know today, would have I have done something different, probably yes, but maybe not!

I am still in a very fortunate situation compared to many other people, as I still have my business running slowly above idle, and I know in myself if I feel to much BS coming my way, it will cost me nothing to say STOP! But that's not really want I want to do, I want to give it a go, until 1500 - 2000 hours TT, but if this is it, well than I am not so convinced anymore!

I would be surprised if I am the only one feeling like this, but I think many are to proud to admit it, because it would be making yourself admit that after spending all that effort, time and money, it was not just all that!

[Rithalic]

i find myself on many an occasion typing a post or a response to a post and i get partway through and i just think, oh i dont care enough / whats the point and i oft just alt f4 and go and do something else.

i got halfway through your post and wished you'd done the same.

i mean after all the time you spent writing this you could have probably earnt another 1500 quid.

if you pm me your address i'll get the miniature violinist to pop round to yours and play you the worlds saddest song.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

This is an interesting thread, and have heard this view point or similar themes from a few people I have worked with.

Some of the points you have raised are facts you would or should have known about before you started the job, for example, being away, getting up at three thirty in the morning, four sector days, being in the cruise for hours etc. I cant help but raise an eyebrow to guys who moan about these issues, and your motivation to embark on the mission of becoming a pilot.

Also, the job is diverse in the sense of, are you flying cargo through the night in a clapped out turbo prop in crappy weather or are you flying for the flag carrier of your country in a wide bodied jet, the lifestyle of course is very different.

Rightly or wrongly, I always make comparisons to how my life used to be before I became a pilot, and it makes me appreciate the job because I enjoy it so much.

I cant quite get my head around why going to work at 4am or there abouts, and getting home in the afternoon from doing 4 sectors and have to do it all over again the following day is an issue? Isnt this what the majority of people do in the world, work for a few days on the trot?

I would also be interested to know, what was your dream? Why were your dreams shattered on day one just because you had to fly a four sector day?

Making comparisons about what you 'could' have earned in the same amount of time doing something as part of your business is pointless, and you are obviously disappointed. The way the industry is right now you are never going to make mega bucks flying for a living, so if that is what motivates you, you are in the wrong job.

Of course I do not know you, but it would appear you simply did not know what you were getting yourself into and had not done thorough research? Also, perhaps your heart was not in it?

I think this is a real shame, as there are hundreds of guys and girls out there, who I am sure have read this thread, are spitting blood right now knowing they would get far more out the job than you are. Perhaps you should step aside and let them enjoy it, rather than let it make you feel resentful.

I think the job and the lifestyle are great and the issues you have raised are part of the job.

[truckflyer]

This message was more towards those here, who suddenly from clear lighting have decided to become a pilot, not knowing what it really is about!

I did do my research very well, and I was very well aware of what I was getting myself into. However, and I have met many pilots already, who are in the job, and for them it is just that, a job, nothing more, nothing less!

One guy I knew, his wife was having a baby, and the company did not want to give him days off so he could help take care of his wife and his daughter during the birth period and weeks after, he decided that was enough, and left the company without any notice!
This was a guy with over 10.000 hours on various aircraft!

Furthermore I have met several both first officers and captains, who you could see was clearly tired, but this was their life, but it had taken a heavy price on their lives and specially they relationships!

In this day and age, surely I was extremely motivated, and for sure I knew I was NOT doing it for the money! For me to get such a job at my age, is extremely rare, and this is not the issue - it is the total package you let yourself into, if you decide to leave a good career, as you would have to have had a good career - to be able to afford the training - you might discover that it maybe does not stimulate the brain as much as you wish it did!

As I have said, I will give it a go, and see where it leads me - I know of guys who was miserable, and as soon as they got homebase etc. suddenly it was the best job in the world!

Also if you have the money to do the training, most likely from hard work in the past, you have learned who to appreciate the value of money, but you see clearly you are not appreciated for the work you do!
This amongst a mixture of things, devalues the job, and it makes it even more frustrating when you see there are idiots prepared to P2F - for this, just to think they will get a foot up the foodchain!

As I said, I am one of the lucky ones, no debts, nothing to really loose - after working so hard against this, it does feel like an anti-climax - be careful for what you wish for, it might not be what you thought it was!

No amount of research in advance, can prepare you for the real thing - believe me - I have been connected to aviation since I was 17 years old, and had my first flying lesson!

Maybe I am just exhausted after TR, line training and constant checking and questions for the last probably 5 - 6 months!

[taxistaxing]

I actually was home few days last week, and made £1500 with few hours work within 4 - 5 days




Truckflyer, you sound like you are in an enviable position!

If you have a business that gives you the ability to earn good money from only a few hours work and you don't enjoy the airline flying you're currently doing why on earth don't you instruct, or do some other kind of flying that doesn't force you to do long days and stop overs?

[Dak Man]

You should have gone to Africa or Alaska and done some real flying before embarking with the monotony of airlines. I suspect that if you're completely honest with yourself your dream was more focussed on the lay-mans perception of what being a pilot is rather than the reality of it, a reality that you now live. You've woken up and smelled the in flight coffee by the sound of it.

Take the kidology and huge egos out of piloting and there's not much left.

[Artie Fufkin]

...on my first observer day, my dreams was shattered to pieces! 4 sectors across Europe in one day on the jump seat, I was destroyed when I returned to my bed to have a rest!

Now what can I say, I got what I wanted, or so it seemed, do I enjoy it? I enjoy parts, but are those parts I enjoy worth all the hours I am stuck in that metal tin?

...besides the Take Off / departure and the Approach / Descent - and landing, 90% of the job is DEAD BORING!...

Jesus ******* Christ!!! Your first observer flight?!

Do everybody a favour (yourself, the poor crew who will have to listen to your moaning, and the wannabe whose job you are taking) and resign immediately.

This had better be a wind up. What the **** did you expect?

[packo1848]

Removed my previous long-winded and heading towards off-topic post.

The fact is there are people far worse off out there. Yes, a lot of pilots are over-worked and underpaid these days, but then I look at my old job...

What you made in 4-5 days for a few hours work (appreciate you weren't flying or so I assume), I couldn't have hoped for in a month and I know people who are bringing up a family of 3 kids with a stay at home wife on this + appropriate benefits. The bonus for 6 months in a sandy :mad:hole away from home and civilisation, even a proper bed; often working up to 48 hours in one go with little/no sleep (yes I have fallen asleep on my feet before)...a lot of pilots will earn more in a month.

I for one will be happy (should I be lucky enough to land a job) to do something that at the moment I love, safe in the knowledge that after a day/night at work, unless something goes catastrophically wrong, I will be sleeping in reasonable comfort in a bed. To me its all about where else would I be, the answer...in a few months time I would be on my way to the sandbox once more to count down 6 months until I see civilisation again.

Sure, possibly one day this may wear off and I may tire of it all as you have; if this happens then for me it would be time to walk away, cut my losses and move on.

I'm sorry your experience of aviation hasn't quite turned out how you anticipated, but remember there will be plenty waiting behind you to take that seat in that shiny jet...

[RTN11]

Sounds like your working for the wrong company mate.

My version of living the dream is so far exactly what I'd hoped, or even more. I fly a decent sized turboprop 4-5 days a week, nice short flights, certainly no time to think of getting bored, a mixed schedule and plenty of time to spend with my new girlfriend and disposable income to enjoy.

Perhaps you should've done more research into the day to day life of an airline pilot before you started, I went out looking for this lifestyle, and I'm happy that I finally have it.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Maybe I am just exhausted after TR, line training and constant checking and questions for the last probably 5 - 6 months!

You had better get used to it for the rest of your career mate! Dear oh, dear, what a load of nonsense.

[Cavallier]

CAT 3C


"Why were your dreams shattered on day one just because you had to fly a four sector day?"


Nowhere near as hard as 5, 1/2 hour trial lessons in a row!!!

[victorc10]

If you are "bored" then you are not doing your job properly.....think about it!

[YYZ]

Wow, you state you did your research, I beg to differ.

If you are unhappy now, you've got a lot of years ahead of you, change companies is probably the best option, if the kind of flying you're doing does not suit there are many other options, like a previous post said, instruct, I did that for a few years and its fun, and you are home every night, but I'm sorry to inform you, this may also cause your delicate body to become tired?

[GLuis103]

Sounds like your working for the wrong company mate.

My version of living the dream is so far exactly what I'd hoped, or even more. I fly a decent sized turboprop 4-5 days a week, nice short flights, certainly no time to think of getting bored, a mixed schedule and plenty of time to spend with my new girlfriend and disposable income to enjoy.

Perhaps you should've done more research into the day to day life of an airline pilot before you started, I went out looking for this lifestyle, and I'm happy that I finally have it.

I agree with this, maybe you should try another company if you can ? Well either way, doing something you don´t like or get bored at doing it can be very frustrating. What I would say is move to perhaps smaller company, that´s based closed to you and fly smaller aircraft and less often as you fly now. I guess that would be ideal for you ? Either way, I hope you get your love back for flying again, good luck ;)

[truckflyer]

As you can see from the thread, specially for older guys, looking to change career!

Now here are a few things, how many of you who make these comments have children?
I guess not many, however..as we know, no experience no job, so of course I also see future in another company in the long run, it's not that I am unhappy with the company, they have done whats written on the tin!

Doing something wrong, because I am bored??? Really???

I wonder how you explain that, what is there really to between TOC and TOD? Not really much, preparing the approach and briefing takes about 5 minutes, so yes on long flights I really get bored!

Of course it still feels good when you make a perfect descent and land with maximum crosswind nicely! But it's like standing in cue for a funride, you stand there waiting for 2 -3 hours or more, and thrill lasts you around 10 minutes!

End of the day, it is what it is, it is just a job, nothing more, nothing less! Like any job you do, it will become - just that!

I have had much experience from other "jobs" in my life, and of course it has it's attractions, but for somebody who has experienced many other things in life, it's become a job with mixed emotions!
Of course if I had chose to re-locate some things would have been easier, but when you have children it is not that simple to re-locate!

How that part will feel, is not that easy to research, as your mind is so focused on passing training and getting a job, however when you discover your life has less meaning and more metal, well you have to wonder, is it really all that?


By the way the remark "Why were your dreams shattered on day one just because you had to fly a four sector day?"

First the jump seat is extremely uncomfortable place to sit for 14 hours, delays, thunderstorms, the whole crew was exhausted, shattered - meant in this context it was a very heavy day, being your first proper introduction to the job. And it took away many illusions I had had regarding the job! It did not make me quit, but made me think of damn lucky I had been in my life until now!

I know I was also "lucky" to be in the company with a job, that was not the issue! And I do not go around moaning about the job, but give a reflection of what it is about, specially for some of you looking to change career, and have never been into aviation yet!

Personally I would not like to do instructing, as I do not want to sit and watch others fly or try to kill me, however yes, more basic hands on flying would be more fun, instead of AP ON at 800 ft!
But what can you do, that's the SOP's, and you do as you are told!

Oh, one more thing, I have been self-employed for over 20 years, nobody has ever needed to tell me what I should or should not do! For you have not had this experience, it is difficult for you to understand, the freedom of being your own boss, it is a huge contrast, and maybe unique situation for me, I don't know, just the way it is!

[DCS136]

Truckflyer

From reading your posts above there seem to be two issues that are causing you grief.
For the record, I am an aspiring career changer myself and I have limited knowledge of item 1 but expert knowledge of item 2.

1) The job is not as you expected it to be.
I find this hard to believe as from reading some of your previous posts you seem to have been pro-active for quite some time in trying to secure an airline position. There are any number of posts, blogs etc on the internet that provide an insight into a 'day in the life of a pilot'. You must surely have spoken to several pilots along the way that would have given you an insight into the job.
I think that you have done remarkably well to secure a job in the current market, especially when you are at the slightly older end of the hiring spectrum (I will be approaching 37yo when training complete). I would give it time, perhaps you are still adjusting to the change in home lifestyle and working environment which is skewing your view of the job.

2) Absence from Family Life.
This is something that I know very well. I have a wife and two young children, I work and live away from home (family life and comforts) for an average of 250 days per year. I have done this for 10 years now, with the days away getting more and more each year and it is hard, it does get easier with time but the key is to have a solid family unit. The most important point for me is to ensure that when I am at home I make sure that the time spent with my family is of good quality and lots of fun. Plus it's a good excuse for not doing the DIY jobs:)

Anyone considering a career change will likely be self-financing (as you pointed out) and should be able to put together a base case plan for moving forward prior to spending circa £50k on training.

This should include at least the following:
1) Why do you want a career change?
2) Do you really want it?
3) How will you pay for it?
4) Risks to Family life, financial security, lifestyle change
5) Job Prospects and lifestyle (See 4)
6) Long term opportunities
7) Back-up plan if it doesn't work

I am sure that you considered all of the above and were prepared to make the necessary sacrifices from the outset. I would suggest re-visiting all of the above to help take stock of your journey so far and where you go next. I find with some guys coming into my industry later in life that they really do struggle with being away from home, so you need to find something that works for you.

From my own point of view, when I qualify I would like to have any flying job, just being paid to fly (I imagine that's what most people think when they are starting out). However, the reality is that I have a family to support, mortgage to pay etc so I do not have the luxury that I would have had many years ago. That is the main issue for a career changer with commitments and I know (from my planning) that I will be able to spend a couple of years in a low paid job before funds will run out and I will either need to have secured a better paid flying job by then or return part-time to my current industry to keep things ticking over.

[taxistaxing]

Truckflyer,

No offense mate but, if you don't like instructing and you don't like airline flying, maybe you just don't like flying full stop!? In which case being a pilot is probably a bad career choice. :ugh:

Time to cut your losses and pursue other avenues?

DCS136, thoroughly sensible advice in your post, and that's roughly my plan. Get on with the training, but don't burn your bridges with your current career, so you can ride it out if you don't get a flying job in the short/medium term.

[119.35]

If you feel like that and you're not even on the line yet, then you are screwed!

I am a career changer of similar age with a young family. I changed careers last summer and now fly a bizjet. I earn about 25% what I did in my previous career. As we flew over the Alps this morning, I still considered myself a lucky bastard. I have long since stopped wondering what I would be doing if I was still stuck in an office as it seems like another life to me now. But I am continually thankful that I don't have to endure the 9 till 5 commute.

The flying is varied and we can do plenty of hand flying if we want. I consider myself fortunate not to have to park miles away from the 'office' and rarely have to endure main terminal security. If we have to hang around at an airport for any length of time, it's normally in a nice FBO.

I work for a small to medium size operator, so we have the luxury of an Ops department with ground handling etc. But we have to get our hands dirty and I enjoy every aspect of my non flying duties whether it's restocking the aircraft with drinks or covering and securing it for the night. I still take photos of other aircraft when I am on the apron and feel privileged to be on the other side of the fence.

Is it all brilliant, well no of course not. I get loads of time off, but I can't do any thing with at as I am effectively on call within reason, most days. Do I feel lucky and have to keep pinching myself when we are in the cruise and I get the chance to admire my view from my office window, you bloody bet I do! I am ways looking to do things in the cruise, no matter how minor they are. It is worrying that you say you are already bored in the cruise but are you still in the jump seat or actually in the rhs?

Before, during and post training my goal was always GA. If I was 20 something, then my goals would probably have been very different. I can understand your reasoning for posting but think you are going to get plenty of flack for doing so. I am really sorry to hear that it's not all you imagined it to be, but I just wish I could have changed careers years ago. But I couldn't afford it then.

[GustavoDavid]

Stop flying for a while and you will start missing it again and give it the respective value.
Also, try aerobatics on the weekends, and you never be bored again !

Regards

[RTN11]

If you wanted hand flying, you should've taken your £60k+ training expenses and bought a pitts S2, and had a lot of fun every weekend, and toured the country every year attending each aerobatics competition.

Airline flying is very little to do with hand flying. It's all about decision making, knowledge of rules and regularions and above all professionalism. It can be a hard lifestyle for some perhaps, but for most of us it's exactly what we want, lots of variety, never knowing what the day will bring, just when you think you're bored you hit a thunderstorm, or get an unusual caution to keep you guessing.

Perhaps take another career change back to whatever you did before, and free up that right hand seat for someone who really wants it.

[Artie Fufkin]

Having slept on my more fruity-language post earlier, I still feel your attitude is just so bad that I frankly don't believe you. If it wasn't for your lengthy posting history I would assume you to be a troll. But on the assumption you are not...

When you decided to make a career change to become a pilot, honestly, what were you expecting? What exciting things did you imagine airline pilots do whilst the autopilot flies the cruise? What was it that you were expecting to happen that didn't? Just how hard did you think about this decision? Quite evidently the answer has to be "not very much".

You say you were really bored during your long day, but this was your first day in the flight deck of an airliner. For most of us it was like a child being let loose in a sweet shop. And to top it all off, you describe a day dodging thunderstorms as boring?? :ugh:

I wonder how you explain that, what is there really to between TOC and TOD? Not really much, preparing the approach and briefing takes about 5 minutes, so yes on long flights I really get bored!

Part of the unofficial skill set of a pilot, and something that used to be tested very hard before HR departments took recruitment off pilots is the ability to entertain your colleague during the lean hours. I'm not going to give the press a field day by describing some of the tricks i have seen used. If you were bored on day one, I feel for your colleagues! Please tell me your company doesn't have any night flights back from Cyprus.

Doing something wrong, because I am bored??? Really???
If you are still new, then yes! They do say it takes 500 hours in an airliner before you even realise just how much there is still to learn, but that doesn't excuse your apparent lack of desire to learn anything, either by the manuals (don't try and pretend you know all your ops manuals back to front) or by asking your skipper about how he or she handled this or that experience.

End of the day, it is what it is, it is just a job, nothing more, nothing less! Like any job you do, it will become - just that!
Exactly why, if you had the slightest decency, would resign straight away and give your job to someone who would actually enjoy being there. I've been flying for around 9 years and even now, I'm still looking forward to my next day at work.

Your attitude absolutely stinks! I wonder what wannabes struggling to stay current in the hope of a sniff of a job make of your ungrateful ass?

HD 737 Cockpit Scenes - YouTube
Yeah, BORING!

[truckflyer]

First 119.35 - I am on the line now, all passed, so it that sense relieved and happy for that!

DCS136 - A well formulated post, and I agree and understand many of the things you say.

Yes, it is remarkable, I know this, my passion for flight has not passed. There are just certain aspects that are hard to handle!
Give me the flack you want, I can see the difference between people who do have some understanding, and those who are shallow like the Camden river!

Believe me this is not an emotion that I am alone about to feel! I know plenty colleagues who share similar view, with a difference of that maybe some of them have been flying for a few more years!

Of course, a 9 to 5 job has never appealed me, and that is not my past, I never had such a job in the past, that's maybe what makes things a bit different, as I do not relate to that kind of lifestyle, that some of you might be desperate to get out of!

About being in the wrong company, probably, but again as you ALL know, in the start we have no choice, even less when you start at my age!

I am not a fragile little soul looking for sympathy, if I was, I would be in this position I am in today, I would not have got the job as I have today!
I have made my made, and I lay in it, for good or for bad!

But I wanted to open the eyes of some of you, who so desperately are longing for this "life" - to try to make you see, that it might not be what you expect!

Now some of you might not have families, and some of you might be happy to get away from your "so called" loved ones!

I find it an extreme waste of quality time, sitting in some murky hotel in some strange country, where I don't understand a word of what people say, or some even murkier apartment - your lives contents is only about going into that jet, and after sitting in some place waiting to sleep to be ready to go next days work!
Sure we can keep connections trough Skype and internet, but how boring is that in the long run!

Anyway, I don't really care what some of you guys might think, all I wanted was to give an insight in the real life for a career changer like me!

If you dream is to live an anti-social life without family and friends, well than this is the perfect change! And I do know, there are people who choose this, many of you are willing to sell your grandmother to get a chance in the cockpit!
It blinds you from all normal reasoning that you would use in other decisions in your life! That's the power of aviation! 8 days away, and 2.5 days home with the people who matter most for you!

Unless you have children, you have NO CLUE what you are talking about!

[poina]

Two words for you sport-BOO-HOO

[Artie Fufkin]

You didn't say the problem was working a long way from home - that is completely understandable. You said you were bored on your first flight.

[RTN11]

Artie Fufkin nice video.

Perhaps truckflyer should get that dramatic music in the background when he flies so that engaging the autopilot seems like some exciting thrill ride which he seems to crave.

[truckflyer]

Artie Fufkin - First you do not know me, you do not know how much time and effort I have put down to this!

I know very well, I have loads to learn, I am not lacking a desire to learn, if you knew me, you would know that!
From start to end / now, I know very well, the day you think you know it all, and nothing more to learn, that is the day you should stop this career!

You are confusing my professional mindset, with my personal experience of the job!
I probably now for nearly 6 months + , been studying hard to pass interview, TR's, line-training - you think I did that by being bored or having the wrong attitude!

My attitude is not the issue, but when a company sets you as example for Christmas - knowing you are a commuter, work one day, and puts you 4 days in a row on standby in a foreign country, far from home! - which by the way I did not even get called out for duty! That makes you understand, for this job, you are just a piece of meat - a number - a slave to their system, what they want when they want!

I accepted this, or when a friend of mine could not get days off when his wife was giving birth to their baby!

Maybe these are company issues, however these are part of the so -called lifestyle that is acceptable to have this job at any price!

I was not shattered my first obs flight - shattered in the sense exhausted after 14 hours on the jump seat! Other flights I have been bored, few things mixed up and around here!

[Lightning Mate]

Airline flying is very little to do with hand flying

What the hell is "hand flying" ??????

[MCDU2]

Truckie - just a guess but are you at FR by chance?

If so then unfortunately your experiences at FR are not necessarily typical. And how someone with a family can exist there when being shoved around the bases on a Brookfield contract is beyond me.

I am fortunate to work in a national carrier. Sure some sectors can be boring but generally work is fun. We go in have a bit of a laugh and joke. Cup of tea on the turn around with the CCMs, give out loads about the company and how they are trying to screw us over continually. At the end of the day we thank each other for all the help and look forward to doing it all again.

[truckflyer]

MCDU2 - Nothing going to name companies - but that is one thing 90% of the crews I have worked with have been great - I have to admit that, I have nothing but praise to say about them - of course being "new" you are still getting to know guys wherever you are going, being sent - I personally believe the link of enjoyment must include a pay that you feel satisfies your worth - and a value, and in time a home base where you have the chance to have a life!

Being in it now, makes me see things differently in many ways, specially towards the attitude of many who would give their arm and leg and work for candy bar and a cup of tea, and would happily do the rest of the job for free, or some even pay to get the chance just to fly!

Now I have NEVER advocated or supported P2F - but I have in the past maybe tried to understand why some people would accept such conditions, however now, it makes me see this from a complete different view!
And it is because of idiots like that, that we all get pushed around like cattle with some companies, and have no choice but to accept forever degrading T & C's.

However amongst wannabes / newbies, it seems to be an absolute taboo to say something negative about this "dream job" - as so many are blinded by the actual struggle to get the job, that we nearly don't care under what terms we accept the job!

This has to be a wake up call for many wanting to get into the business, but of course, to many are willing to walk upon others to get the chance. It is clearly seen by the attitude here, of people calling me not worthy, ungrateful, if I left there would be hundreds/thousands waiting to step in to my place! And many would even be willing to accept even worse terms!

The attitude, you should have re-searched better, vow... of course I knew of this potential issues in advance, and accepted them, does not mean that I can't try to give people a view of my experience!

Some say, if you did it for the money, aviation is not the right thing, sure most of us don't start doing this for the money alone - however let's also be adults here, when working as a pilot, you are doing it for the money! Of course there certain other self-pleasing satisfactory aspects with the job, that you don't have with other jobs, and is also a part of the reason you are doing it!

But for you who wish you was in the job, when you are in your 3.rd or 4.th day in a row, with 4 sector days, having been waking up at 3.30 every morning, and had 10 - 12 hour day, and you wake up in the morning and see the weather reports with snow storms and max cross winds at 3 or 4 of your destinations, you than think of the money they are paying you for get up and fly these odd 200 passengers and crew safely out and safely in these conditions - of course the challenge is there, but clearly it is you up there at the end of that 4.th sector, and after a Go Around because there was no contact with ground - believe me you know what you doing, and get all the right things done, however for this effort and experience, you are being paid peanuts! Sorry that is wrong, and yes that does not match my expectations of what the job is worth!

All these things are a combination of causes that factors that gives you a perspective over things.

As an example, of what made me feel angry inside, and which I feel does put pressure on crews, I will tell you a true story event that I experienced.

In one of these days, where the weather was really crap, we was flying return leg to home base airport X, however airport X only have NPA, and the last 2 days, all flights had diverted and taken of from airport Z!

Than of course this was the last of a 4 sector day, we get a text message on the MCDU from Ground Ops., saying "Please try to land at airport X!"
I read it, and thought to myself, what do they think? That we are not going to try to land there? I mean seriously - all day no aircraft before us had landed there, but my captain and me agreed we would make an attempt, RVR was reported ok, but cloud base was the issue!

Anyway on reaching minima, I said Minima - No Contact - Captain initiated the Go Around - and we diverted without further delay to airport Z!
On way to airport Z, the captain told me he thought he had seen some lights at minima, but because I had said minima - No contact, he had no other choice but to initiate the Go-Around!

However ground crew at airport X, that they had heard us, but had not seen any lights or anything from us!
However this kind of message, makes me think.
Maybe a less assertive, who wanted to try to please Ops and the company operations, would have stretched the boundaries of this kind of operations /approaches, as I had the feeling that is was almost with regret that he had initiated the Go Around at that point!

Finally landing at alternate Z, after almost 13 - 14 hours duty, ops called us, and asked us if we could stay on the Aircraft, because improved weather reports for the morning, so they wanted us to ferry the aircraft back to airport X! Again the captain did his best to please the company, but after discovering that the weather was not improving, and that we would actually have ran out of duty time, the captain phoned Ops back, and told them it was not possible!

Now for me the diversion was of great inconvenience, as I had a morning flight in few hours home again, but rather have this inconvenience than making a hole in the ground!

I noticed, in this company, many are very company orientated, however far will they stretch it I don't know - maybe this is also an attitude issue I personally have, however if the rules tell me how it should be, I will follow them to the best of my ability!

These kind of moments are interesting, but I would not call them fun! It gives you experience! However for me, it was completely wrong of ground ops to put additional pressure on the crew by sending a message about to try to land, I mean what else was we going to try to do at the destination???
Do a flyby just for the fun of it??:ugh:

[Bealzebub]

Over the last 24 years I have spent many days with people who are "first day on the job" or something close to it. I enjoy it a lot, because for the new F/O it is something akin to holding on to the tail of a rocket. All of that training comes together and it still involves an enormous degree of running to catch up. The most enjoyable aspect, is the obvious sense of accomplishment and pleasure that is evident on a new pilots face, of a job well done at the end of the day.

In all that time I cannot ever recall somebody in that position ever saying they were bored!

90% of the job is DEAD BORING! It does my head in to sit there for hours and hours, doing nothing

Then frankly my friend, there is something wrong! You most certainly should be doing something. In fact any pilot who is focused on staying ahead of the game (and believe me you really do want to stay ahead of the game,) should be keeping themselves busy doing so many of the routine tasks that are required to ensure that is properly achieved.

I have been doing this for a while now and 21,000 hours later I can still find myself busy enough on a two hour flight sector not to be bored. I have to say that I find your comment unbelievable! If you find 90% of the job "DEAD BORING" you cannot possibly be doing it correctly.

I have to say that from your many previous threads on these forums, there are a number of rather strange themes involved with so much of what you write. Perhaps you should spend a little more time learning the realities before you rush to the keyboard to espouse so much of this nonsense that you so often seem to relish.

[Artie Fufkin]

Truckflyer - it just gets worse!

You're now moaning about balancing safety with commerciality? - its the very fundamental of the job you signed up to. Of course Ops are going to ask you to "try and get in". A professional pilot would say "OK", put the phone down, tell the other pilot about Ops' comical request and the two of them will smile at each other and just get on with it, in an adult and professional manner.

Next, you'll be moaning about pax criticising your decision to off load some hand luggage to the hold. Or complaining that the cabin crew take the piss when you land firmly. Or that the crew coffee is bad.

:ugh:

[truckflyer]

Artie Fufkin - What are you on about?

It is fairly obvious that you are going to try to land, you do not need a pencil pusher to tell you this!
Isn't that the main object, to try to land at your destination? Or have I misunderstand something, I normally put destination to land in my FMGS, it's not really a random choice where I plan to go !!!

Bealzebub; aren't you a regular know it all, what's the use of having a forum, there should just be a Bealzebub blog instead!
As it seems every view that differs from yours is a dimwit!
It must be extremely delightful to be so enlightened! I envy your knowledge!

Still being a pilot is not rocket science!

I did not say 90% of the job, I said 90% of the flight, now that was probably slightly exaggerated, I can admit that!

Btw., I never had a problem staying ahead of the rocket, I guess I have natural brain for that, generally in life overall it helps if you stay ahead!

[tomtytom]

Surley working with cabin crew makes the job worthwile? :O

[Torque Tonight]

Jeez. Is is thread worthy of a serious reply? I'm going to sleep on that before I waste my time.

Initial thoughts are that if you can't hack four short haul sectors as a jumpseater then frankly you need to man up. If you entered the industry with false expectations then you have only yourself to blame for lack of research, particularly as a 'grown up'. if you can earn so much more elsewhere and you dislike airline flying so much then perhaps off there you should go. Help shift the pilots/jobs ratio back one notch in the right direction by withdrawing yourself and leaving it to those that actually enjoy the job. You will find little sympathy here.

The only positive that can come of such a ludicrous thread is if it forces starry eyed wannabees to reconsider whether the reality of the job is what they want. There's a definite merit in working in a different industry and just flying light aircraft for fun. If however you choose to commit to the career don't come looking for hugs when you find out you have to get up early in the morning. :ugh:

[Torque Tonight]

OK Truckflyer, you are simply not cut out for this job. Your heart's not in it. You don't feel it. I'm not going to lay into you for that fact. 99.9% of the population don't want to be pilots. You will see people who love and embrace airline flying as inferior to you. They will see you as inferior to them. You're simply playing the wrong game and you need to go off elsewhere and play your chosen sport. This is not it. I will criticise you for a lack of due diligence - that's squarely on your shoulders.

A few events I can think of:
My first glider solo at 16.
My first powered solo.
First time I flew a military aircraft.
First time I flew an aircraft with guns on it.
First combat ops.
737 Base training.
First flight with c. 200 passengers.

I was flipping thrilled on each of these occasions. Even driving up to the airport the night before the base check, I could barely contain my excitement. I still get a buzz walking out to the Boeing just as I did walking out to my military type.

If you're not feeling any of this then you are simply in the wrong job. You know what to do.

[truckflyer]

Torque Tonight - I mean there seems to be some issue here for people to read, this is intended as some warning to people who are considering trying to get into the industry at a later stage.

First is not easy, the odds are against you, and for these people - who might have had a very good career previously, to be able to afford to get into flight training, would have needed to something else than stack shelves at Tesco's it might not be what they expect out of life quality!

It's funny, because a lot of the things I have written about, is a combination of my experience, and experienced pilots I have met during this process!

And of course I felt the buzz, and still feel the buzz when thrust is set, and of we go!
The thread is exactly for that, to warn and make people re-consider before they splash out thousands in flight training! Of course most will not listen anyway!

I do not have any regrets, but the facts are what they are!

[119.35]

Truckflyer - I can see what you are trying to do by making career changers aware of some of the realities of airline flying, but you're not helping yourself when you start attacking regular contributors to the forum.

Given the inflammatory nature of some of your comments, you knew full well that you were going to cop some flack. If you weren't so blunt and forceful, I think your well meant attempt to enlighten people would have been better received. Having a go and retaliating when the eneviatable comments roll in, just makes matters worse. You couldn't have possibly thought that everyone would agree with everything that you said and how you put it!?

I appreciate what you are trying to do and that is admirable but I just think you haven't gone about it as well as you could have. Perhaps I am wrong and you intended to stir things and people up, but I don't think so.

Getting into any TP or jet airline is impressive, let alone at the age of 44. Without speculating, all I will say is that I would be amazed if it was Ryan given their apparent block on anyone over the age of 30.

Looks like you have some soul searching to do given the realities of your new profession. Good luck with that but it's not going to help having a go at people along the way.

[Meikleour]

truckflyer: In my experience most new co-pilots show signs of boredom in the cruise and seem to wonder why on earth the "old duffer" to their left does not appear to be bored himself.
When they eventually get their command they finally realise just how many factors that they could not even have imagined in their early days were being considered by the captain who is also under no allusions that his co-pilot has not given any of these factors a passing thought! The loneliness of command!!

[Luke SkyToddler]

Man up ya loser. If you didnt have a post history i'd nominate you for troll of the year because your post just reeks of BS, anyone who claims to be bored sh!tless on their first day of line training in the jet is either a total ADHD case, brain dead or a liar.

20 years and 9000 hours later for me and yes of course there are good days and bad days but it's still one of the most satisfying jobs in the world when a plan comes together.

There are a lot of smart young people out there with their eyes wide open doing some really crap long hours low pay jobs right now, trying to save enough money to be in your shoes. I can only suggest you quit right now, let someone more deserving have your seat, and take your crybaby ass back to your *cough BS cough* other job that pays 1500 quid for a few hours' work, and thank your lucky stars that you have such a great fallback option. What did you expect to gain by starting this thread, sympathy?

[AviatorDave]

Truckflyer, I'm also one of these "older" guys who tried (in vain, unfortunately) to start a new life as a commercial pilot in today's rather difficult aviation business.

Meanwhile I had to put my dream to rest and went back to my old job. All I can say is that if you managed to get to fly a jet for an airline, please don't complain. Given your age, I think you were extremely lucky.

Want to drop out? I'll gladly take the job and sit through whatever it takes.

[Bealzebub]

I did not say 90% of the job, I said 90% of the flight, now that was probably slightly exaggerated, I can admit that!

Oh dear! Did I misquote you?

"Flying is hours of boredom, punctuated by moments of stark terror."

Here I am today, "living the dream"

Yet the dream does not feel like a dream anymore! Maybe my message should also go as a stark warning to those "older wannabes", who believe this is what is missing in their life!

Against most odds, I got into the business, which was my "dream" - however already on my first observer day, my dreams was shattered to pieces! 4 sectors across Europe in one day on the jump seat, I was destroyed when I returned to my bed to have a rest! Guess what, not a long rest, I barely had closed my eyes, before I had to wake up again, and go for another day of observer flights!

Now this has become my everyday life - and feeling what I do now it makes me wonder, was this really the dream I thought it was?

Yes I am living the "dream!"

Looking back over the years, the sacrifices, the money I spent, the fractures of my relationship, the time I am loosing with my daughter, the things I could have done with that "money" that I have already spent!

I get up 3.30 in the morning, and get back at 17.00, and than next morning up again 3.30 - vow... yes, I am flying a shiny jet, vow... what a dream!!

And how much money did I make for those hours of work? Hmm. Hard to give an exact number, but probably around £150, seriously, are you kidding me, you might think that is great money!
However I had a business, still have it by the way, where I make more money in an afternoon, I actually was home few days last week, and made £1500 with few hours work within 4 - 5 days

Now what can I say, I got what I wanted, or so it seemed, do I enjoy it? I enjoy parts, but are those parts I enjoy worth all the hours I am stuck in that metal tin?

I am not meaning to offend anybody, but besides the Take Off / departure and the Approach / Descent - and landing, 90% of the job is DEAD BORING! It does my head in to sit there for hours and hours, doing nothing, besides read some FCOM or some other "useful" literature, to enhance my aviation career!

Now I do admit, maybe if I got home to my family a bit more often, and maybe if the pay was better, I would not feel so let down by what I thought was my "dream" - however that does still not cover over the fact of all those hours of boredom!

But thinking about the "freedom" I have lost, the income from the job, the loss of family life, commuting lifestyle, where of course your roster will never be adapted to give you the chance to travel home on your working day, you always have to commute on your off days!

So you "older" guys specially, who are considering to follow your dream, beware - it might not be exactly as you imagine it to be! I do miss GA, and in many ways think I probably would have had more fun flying around in a small PA28 - than again back in 2006, when I started to think about startng to fly again, a friend of mine, who was a 74 captain, tried to tell me that it was maybe not as it seemed!
But did I listen? Of course - not that much, and neither will probably you either, but considering the facts with the cost of training and time lost with family and friends!

Can you imagine the pleasure and fun I could have had with my family, if I had spent the money on them, instead of CPL / ME/IR + + , do I now have regrets?

I can't have regrets, because if I had not tried I would never have known, I got what I deserved and what I asked for!
Having known the facts I know today, would have I have done something different, probably yes, but maybe not!

I am still in a very fortunate situation compared to many other people, as I still have my business running slowly above idle, and I know in myself if I feel to much BS coming my way, it will cost me nothing to say STOP! But that's not really want I want to do, I want to give it a go, until 1500 - 2000 hours TT, but if this is it, well than I am not so convinced anymore!

I would be surprised if I am the only one feeling like this, but I think many are to proud to admit it, because it would be making yourself admit that after spending all that effort, time and money, it was not just all that!

No, apparently not! However, even if you find 90% of the flight "DEAD BORING" then you are still not doing it properly. As has already been mentioned, your posting history (in all of it's many guises) seems to involve a lot of you, shouting to the rest of the world, a lot of utter nonsense. Perhaps you should allow your brain to catch up with your fingers before you reach for the keyboard. Actually, that would be good advice in the flightdeck as well.

Do you remember writing this barely 12 weeks ago? Maybe you should remind yourself.
I admit, in the past, I have said stupid things on these forums, some maybe misguided, lack of experience, but the more you get into this business, the more you see you want to learn and know, and the more you understand how little you know!

[Torque Tonight]

I've re-read this thread in the cold light of day wondering if I had maybe been a bit too harsh on our delicate little flower, but unfortunately I still find myself facepalming at what he writes.

One of my early instructors once said to me that if ever you find yourself sitting there doing nothing while flying an aircraft, it's because you've missed something. That remains true to this day. Any d1c khead can sit there idle and bored in the cruise on a long sector, but the better pilot will always find something to do, whether it's checking the status of en-route alternates, monitoring systems, or even learning something.

You complain about declining Ts&Cs, you blame those who enter the industry and work for peanuts, and yet you yourself have accepted a job with less pay than you feel is appropriate, so you are an equal part of the problem. A self-hack there.

The problem in the industry one of supply and demand, pilots versus pilot jobs available and you will understand the market forces that are generated. The best thing for the pilot body as a whole would be to have fewer people entering the industry. Those that enter the industry and work for virtually nothing and those who get jobs but then bitch and moan about how awful life is, are the two main groups that the industry would be better off without, and I'm afraid you seem to tick both boxes.

You seem to have entered the profession based on a stereotype. You seem to have expected a highly paid job that's easy but exciting with short, civilized hours of work and a free choice of where you work. If you know of any such job in the world please let me know. Some due diligence would have given you a realistic understanding of the job, upon which you could make sensible career choices. The fact that flying a four sector day and then being tired afterwards came as a surprise to you beggars belief.

Everything you write tells me that you are not cut out to be a pilot and as I said before there is no shame in that. Just do something about rather than bleating. There's nothing more irritating than spending a day in the flight deck with someone who bitches all day.

Now I realise that you want to open the eyes of wannabies. That is great and the main thrust of my rant is that everyone, you included, should go in with their eyes open. However many of the things you complain about, we either quite enjoy or accept as a thoroughly anticipated part of the job. You will find very little sympathy here - but you've probably picked up on that by now.

[truckflyer]

Bealzebub - you are not really the target group for the post, however you are welcome to voice your opinion!

No attack was intended, until I got attacked!

And yes, sure, I moan and moan on the flight deck, Torque - seriously? Do I really seem that stupid?

However I have met several, and much more than an handful of both captains and first officiers, who have moaned, much more than I have done here, as I do find much excitement in parts of the job!

Neither am I fragile soul, who has problems with working adverse hours etc., this is not an issue for me, myself, but for sure could be an issue for people considering a career change! Eyes wide open? Many havent got that!

And to talk about TC's, well you have to be in it, to be able to do something with it, as you guys who already was in it, did not do eff all, and just let it degrade!

Of course a forum discussion is to open debate about topics, and get different views, not just the one who tries to play the good old wise man, thinks he knows everything, when its very clear some know a lot, but still know very little!

Having come from the bottom, I knew, I could not be picky where I went, if I wanted to follow my "dream" well, beggars can't be choosers! Being inside I can see much more, should I not voice my opinion because I am inside?

Have I exaggerated some of the topics a bit, for sure I have, but believe me, there are guys with much more experience than me, that feel like I have explained and even worse!

However at least I got paid during my training, not like some others who willingly parts with large amounts of cash on their P2F schemes around the world!

I constantly read countless posts, of the "to old" question, the fact is that if you have passed 40.th, and never had a flight hour, you are to old to start this, you might get lucky, but that is rather the exception than the rule! So many here, goes in the middle, ah it's never to late, you only have one life, you might regret or go for it, not many of you are blunt enough to say the real best advice, which is don't do it!
Of course, unless you are willing to accept this bla bla bla bla!

End of the line, expect nothing, hope for the best, it's close to winning the lottery!

It amuses me to see, that because I write a few opinions, I am considered not to be fit to be a pilot by some of you! Isn't that what has got the whole industry into this mess, that you never was able to make up your opinion to support each other and work together to stop the bad TC's in the industry!

Like Bealzebub, (no personal attack intended) - you have many good posts about the industry, some even longer than mine, some makes me fall asleep after I got 1/4 down the post! You have your views of what is good, wrong, bad etc. Now I am looking at this with another set of eyes, having been innovative in my own past business and life, and always worked hard - and been fairly successful, what makes you think that I am a nutter?

That's the way you try to post "degrading" comments, to me I don't really care, and your "fans" love to jump on the bandwagon!

Oh poor little souls, personal attacks... how f.. personal can it be, I don't know you, or anybody else!
When - Austrian Airlines pilot, with over 10.000 hours, tells me during our training together, he could not care less about flying, been flying for over 16 years, he does it for the money, only! The fact is, that what other skill does this pilot have, where he will make this kind of money, to support this lifestyle!

For some it might stay a passion, for some, it might just become what it is, a job! For me? I do love it, whatever I feel and have mixed emotions about it, shows how something you love, can still have it's issues!

Maybe I should just keep quiet, and follow the masses, and be a silent mouse, than again if I was like that, I would have achieved what I have done until now in my life!:ok:

[jonseagull]

.seriously? Do I really seem that stupid

Do you really want an answer to that? :)

[cgwhitemonk11]

Delete your account and just leave the forum mate, because no one will ever take one of your posts seriously again, you are a joke.

And what are you complaining about P2F for.......? If you are with FR or Easy you ARE P2F, you are just too stupid to realize it.

To contrast you, I just had my second day of flight training on a mid sized twin turbo prop... after a rough day yesterday sitting through 2 hours with my head in a sick bag as my companions carried out steep turns and stalls, I sucked it up, took their jibes in good humor and flew as best i could.

Today I went in the RHS first, determined, and I flew as good as any of them, and now i'm off for the weekend and feeling great :ok:

[truckflyer]

cgwhitemonk11 Who are you? Goose, Maverick or Iceman?

You not one of the older guys going into the business, pretty sure you really don't have anybody you need to consider in your life, other than your own pumped ego! Congratulations on the steep-turns, vow... that sounds to be an amazing exciting adventure, for you..........


sapco2 - "Bosses like MO thrive on the enthusiasm and professionalism pilots display and they have simply tapped into the business idea of exploiting that passion. Therein lies our real problem!"

That's one of the smartest comments I have heard, I don't feel injustice by the way, it is what it is, I knew that from the start!

To many are willing to let themselves be sucked dry, to achieve this "dream" - end of the day, this plays into the hands of the airlines, and the gullibility of people interested in aviation!

What makes this job for some so attractive, that they are willing to put themselves trough all the hardships and obvious negative effects the job can and will bring for many?

I am not pretending to be any holier that holier person in this case myself, wtf, part of becoming a professional is to realize it is exactly that, a profession!

There will come a day, when the attraction of the passion will get worn, it's so immature to believe it is a game, playing with big planes, as your toys! I find it hilarious how this culture is being nurtured, and so many get sucked into it!
First of all it is a commercial business, we all know that, nobody needs to highlight that for me!

Maybe it's just me, but I thought it would be more challenging to be an airline pilot, instead I found out my biggest challenge is to calculate how many tea-bags I need to bring with me for a days of operations!
:ugh: :} And what movies the captain has got on his IPAD today! Do I need to bring my own selection, or??

Some here, really take these forums much to seriously! How better can I entertain myself than when I am sitting in this X. ing hotel !!

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Maybe it's just me, but I thought it would be more challenging to be an airline pilot, instead I found out my biggest challenge is to calculate how many tea-bags I need to bring with me for a days of operations!

Yep, its you.

[BAe 146-100]

Obviously a troll, weren't you complaining not so long back that it was unfair that you couldn't get into Ryanair cause your were too old? :rolleyes:

From your posts you have a massive chip on your shoulder, if you are actually an employed pilot the only good thing this thread has done is maybe educate potential pilots in who they might have to put up with for 10 hours a day before they start training.

[BAe 146-100]

Talk about contradicting yourself:


truckflyer
9th Apr 2012, 15:13

Don't listen to the negative moaners here, they are mostly moaning because they haven't got the money or they have been rejected!

Personally I would have jumped at the chance to get going with RYR, and I have many friends working for them, yes they have had some mixed experience, good and bad, but overall all of them are very happy to be working there, and in summer after passing 500 hours, they make good money too!

So I would just slightly put a deaf ear towards the people complaining about Ryanair, there are not many other chances to get experience, and if some are bothered by paying for their own water, just bring your own from Tesco!

If you working in an office, they don't give you free water either, some guys that are complaining, are really so dated!

Sure there are better things to come after, but I know of guys who are happy as soon as they get established and get a base they are happy with!

:confused::confused:

[magicmick]

Wow TF you seemed to have stirred up a real hornets nest but I'm sure that you expected the sort of reaction that you have got and that you're big enough and old enough to cope with it.

Like you I came to flying later in life as a career changer, after saving enough spends to finance the training and I have a wife and a 10 year old son. Thats where the similarity ends as you have succeeded in securing a job where I have not and kudos to you for that. Despite the fact that you are unfulfilled by the career that I wish for I have no axe to grind with you and no personal beef with you.

We're all individuals and we deal with separation from those closest to us in different ways and how we react depends upon a number of things, the individual, the strength of relationship with our partner, the strength and size of the support network of friends and relatives etc etc. Before I started flying training I was in the military so I spent lots of time away from my wife and family, putting myself in harms way on long operational deployments scaring my wife witless and missing huge chunks of my sons development and formative years. I was lucky to have a fantastic wife who was strong and supportive who had a good family network around her.

Since finishing flying training I have reverted to my previous engineering career to keep money coming in and keep the licence, ratings,medical etc current and I'm fortunate enough that my place of work is close enough to allow me home every night. The job pays well(ish), the people that I work with are great but the work itself is mind numbing, uninspiring and completely unfulfilling (sound familiar) but, on balance the positives outweigh the negatives.

Would I swap situations with you? In a heartbeat I would but I suppose you can guess that and I'm sure your boss knows that if you do leave there will quickly be a disorganised queue at their office door to take your place.

I genuinely hope that things work out for you and that you find a solution (inside or outside flying) that grants you the work/ life balance and peace of mind that you obviously seek.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Some here, really take these forums much to seriously! How better can I entertain myself than when I am sitting in this X. ing hotel !!

Not me personally 'cause I'm a married man, but mate, if you really need it spelled out to you how most pilots keep themselves entertained when they're sitting in hotels ... :rolleyes:

I know it's blowing a blizzard in Europe at the moment and you're grinding it out on European shorthaul but that's why people do it for a couple years, then move to EK or Virgin and bid for Bali and Seychelles trips. The boredom of the cruise (of which you know NOTHING about yet, young jedi :hmm: ) is suddenly a minor inconvenience ;)

But you really need to do something about that negative, unmotivated, argumentative attitude and grow a pair, if you want a crack at a decent longhaul job one day and all the perks that go with it. A wise old Qantas training captain said to me in the pub one evening "we know they can do the job or we wouldn't have called them for the interview. What we are interested in is whether we can sit next to them for 12 hours with getting pissed off with them".

Read this thread again in its' entirety and think about it young man ...

[truckflyer]

BAe 146-100
Exactly where am I contradicting myself? First you got to be in it, to really know it! For this kind of flying, getting a good base is the most important, as it will take care of the other issues of family life!
I personally know lots of RYR pilots, and not many of them are complaining, they seem also to be making pretty good money - again from the ones I do know, as soon as they got a base close to family, that sealed the deal, there was much less agony left in their minds from than.

Luke SkyToddler, of course I see your point, and believe me, I am not sitting around in the cruise moaning about this stuff, actually not had any problems with any of the captains I have been flying with, rather contrary, even one of them invited me for Christmas when he heard I would be stuck in some xing hotel!

Of course I know, killing the time with studying, but the comes a limit, when you just want to take a few weeks of thinking about studying, when this has consumed your life nearly constantly for the last 3 - 4 years, when you finally managed to reach the first step, you do need a little breather, as specially after doing the line training, every flight being question time, where you have to demonstrate both technical, theoretical and practical skills for various TRI's!

All my TRI's too, was amazing during this period, I found them fair in both their teaching ability, and what they expected from somebody of my level.

What this post is trying to convey, is a couple of things, one is, if you are a late career changer you should maybe be aware of what you letting yourself into, it might not really work with your lifestyle or family.
I knew from the moment I started, I could not be to picky, however some limits I had set myself, some of those was never to do P2F and I would never have moved outside Europe, it would have to be a fairly easy way to commute home!

Besides this, I was pretty much prepared for all. With experience, and getting a better job with better conditions, I would not put these same restrictions in place for a further career, this was the initial step, because I expected that I would be having to come with adverse conditions, and being inexperienced that would be a waste of time, and to far away from family.

magicmick - I know, going on this forums, is a bit like going into the fire with petrol heads, I guess here we are Gasturbine heads, the fact is that so many pilots I have met, who I know have joined my company and other companies, pilots with loads of experience, either military or commercial airline aviation, they do not go around with the attitude of this being their dream job, for ALL of these, who maybe been flying for 5 to 15 years, it's just a job, and you notice that many of these, if they had other ways to make a living of similar money, they would jump at this chance.
But they are locked into this business, not really by choice, but because it is the only skill they have, that will give them a fairly above average lifestyle!

These are my initial observations, even my own attitude during line-training changed, to an attitude that I would do my best, I would not start stressing myself ahead of flights, and go all crazy and getting nervous, whatever happen would happen, either I would be good enough, or not!
I saw others, who was like torpedoes all over the place, constantly reading stuff, studying stuff, running around like headless chickens, nearly with to much stress for themselves, in constant overdrive, and ending up being kicked out of the line-training, due to lack of skills, and this even after the company had paid his TR!

This relaxed attitude I picked up from a few ex-military pilots I met, of course we study, but with so much information, it is a limit of what you can do before things can be overdone, which I sometimes did in my earlier training!

I do understand your situation "magicmick", of course all does depend on our past experience, I can recall when I was around 23 years old, vow.. long time, I used to drive long haul HGV trough Europe, in the start I found it fun, I got to see many places in Europe, but after 6 months sleeping in the Cab all the week, I would have jumped at anything to get away from it!
Flying is not anything, it was what I wanted to do since I was about 11 - 12, and I started when I was 17!

It seems to be very bad thing of me to say that prior to flying I was making very good money, and also now during my work, I get back to UK, and sometimes I make in one evening more than I make with one months work of flying!
Anybody who says we don't do this for the money also, is a fool, because the passion that drives of course is not inspired by money, but the attitude that we should not do it for the money, is the attitude that destroys the industries TC's!
You should not need to go and do a second job to survive, when doing this job, and I blame the current establishment for allowing this to happen, fact is that the minority actually gets a job in the end, and of us who are older, even a smaller minority gets a job!

I am not sure how many here also have children, however this does make a big difference, if you are just a couple, it is much easier to adapt wherever you think can be good, but as soon as children are involved, it is a much more complex picture!

2.5 months I got nearly 200 hours, by end of summer I probably have close to 700 - 800 hours, so of course, the prospects are hopefully promising. The question in the end, with who you want to spend the majority of your time, alone in a hotel or with your family?

[Artie Fufkin]

who you want to spend the majority of your time, alone in a hotel or with your family?

So why did you accept a job that based you far away from home? You have no one but yourself to blame for this one.

Admirable that you want to "enlighten" people about the downsides of the job, but **NEWSFLASH** any remotely intelligent person would have considered this before accepting the job and, more relevantly, long before :mad: £10Ks up against the wall for a job that they find "boring".

[maxdrypower]

Well guys great arguments , chomping away on my popcorn:-) .
I got into this industry late following a long career as a cop . I was very lucky in that i had a friend who owned a flying school and gave me a job as an instructor . I enjoyed every second of it and have since moved into flying a larger twin on freight and ambulance runs. It pays bugger all forces me to live away from home . I fly in all weathers all conditions all by my lonesome 90% of the time and without any kind of auto's . This is good grass roots flying and i love every second of it . I would love to move into a tp or jet airline as it pays better and would nice to be part of a crew . If ever i get bored or lose interest I just need to think to myself that I could be driving around a town centre waiting to attend the next of societies O2 stealers who has decided to take drugs nick a car beat up his wife/ gf/ kids ( delete as appropriate) suddenly the job seems so much nicer.
We have a great job relish it

[truckflyer]

For sure better flying than being a cop, cops are probably the dumbest people I know! Without accountability for the crap they make to other peoples lives!

And this is not trolling or a joke, this is dead serious!

[redsnail]

For sure better flying than being a cop, cops are probably the dumbest people I know! Without accountability for the crap they make to other peoples lives!

And this is not trolling or a joke, this is dead serious!

Well done Truckflyer... :D Epic own goal there. :hmm:

[PURPLE PITOT]

Oh dear. There are rotten apples in every barrel, and we have all come across the one who was bullied at school, and the one fresh out of cop school with then newly fitted nickometer, but that is one hell of a generalisation!:ugh:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Truckflyer, I'm like you. I'm one of those people who can't stand doing nothing, I fidget, I pick my nose, I stare out the window, I twiddle my thumbs, I can never find anything to keep me interested for long. In short -

I GET UTTERLY BORED AFTER ABOUT TEN MINUTES OF, WELL BOREDOM AND INACTION.






And then I go to work, sit on my arse for hours and I'm never bored. I think the devil at the top of the page is spot on.

[Torque Tonight]

It sounds like poor Truckflyer is getting such bad cabin fever alone in his airport hotel that his tenuous grip on reallity is close to snapping.

How better can I entertain myself than when I am sitting in this X. ing hotel !!

Italian TV gameshows and the little bottle of hotel hand lotion maybe?

Nice last post by the way. I think anyone who was still in any doubt can see what we're dealing with here.:D

[maxdrypower]

One word for TF , Bless

[Luke SkyToddler]

TF I think that last post has proved beyond any hope of redemption, that you are a complete and absolute bell end.

If you ever want to be considered as anything other than a laughing stock on PPRUNE again in the future I'd strongly advise you to delete the thread, delete your user name, make a new one, and only contribute to threads when you are quite sure you aren't going to come across as an ignorant arrogant clueless :mad:ing numpty.

[truckflyer]

When a policeman nearly ruins your career because he can't read properly, and sets up a massive sting operation to arrest you, in the middle of Oxford Street London, I could not care less what you think my opinion of the police is!

I was innocent, and was later released without even an apology! So yes I feel strongly about the police, this is another topic, DNA records, fingerprints taken, and all because this police squad could not read properly, 1 week before I was starting in the company!

[magicmick]

Wow TF that’s quite an extreme view you have of the coppers there, your business I suppose.

I assume that you’re intelligent enough to realise that there are thousands of coppers across the country and having a bad experience with a few doesn’t mean that they’re all like that.

Any time you get a large group of people together there’s bound to be a few bad eggs, it was certainly the case in the military we had a few proper nasty pieces of work, even the piloting profession (I do still consider it a profession) isn’t immune. In the Freight Dogs section there’s a thread dedicated to a commercial pilot currently facing paedo charges and last year the media was full of a BA long haul Captain who was banged up for life for battering his estranged missus to death and trying to bury her corpse in a park in London. Going by your logic it’s OK to assume that you’re a wife murdering paedo or perhaps as an ex HGV driver you’d rather be compared to Peter Sutcliffe.

[truckflyer]

When you have the experience I have, it would change your perspective, when you discover their error which saves you, but no apology is given from their major mistake, than when you take them to court they start to lie to protect themselves, you discover it is more than one bad egg, but a system!

If you or me had done some mistake, we would have been fired from our jobs, these they can destroy your life and it has no consequence for them!

Your are in other words guilty, until you can prove yourself innocent!

Funny you mention, but I have passed work both as HGV and Army Officer, and for sure the flying jobs beats all of those passed jobs, which for me was just temporary jobs anyway.
From I was 19 to 36, I travelled a lot, lived many places around the globe, so I knew the impact of having long distance relationships, it was never easy, sometimes impossible!
But without children you could not compare, sure the current winter storms are not making it easier for anybody, but finishing the day is either sleep or study, in country xyw, to be honest after long days not really anything else to do than sleep to wake up for next days work!
Sometimes even trying to sit 1 or 2 hours on Skype is to much of an effort, sleep wins, and not all can understand that!

Days you finish early or on standby, could be spent with people you love, your children specially, instead you spend them in ****ty room some where in xvw, for me it is lost time, time I will never get back with my family or people I love!

Life can pass fast, and that's why I think, and tell people who are not here yet, to think, what it really will be like!

I put limits on it all for me I had to find this job before 45, 2 years to get the problem with the commuting resolved!
I remember a friend of mine who before I started was based in BCN, told me how he hated the job, I thought to myself but he should have known this, prepared for this! He was prepared to quit the job for this reason!

Like many here I could or understand, 6 months later he got Stansted base, I talked to him after, and he loved the job!

Just flying the jet, will not give you the happiness you believe is there waiting for you, life is more complex than that!
Of course if you are 23 you don't care about these things, tis comes with life experience and what you expect from your life!

My limit is 2 years! The choices you make, shapes who you become!

[magicmick]

Sounds like you had a really rough time with the feds but that’s your business.

There are a couple of airlines recruiting F/Os in the UK at the moment, not sure what jet you fly and what your hours are but I believe Jet2 are looking for 737 rated with 400hrs on type and Small Planet are looking for A320 rated, 1500hrs total time and 500hrs on type.

If you haven’t got those minimums then I guess it’s just unlucky timing but it goes to show that the opportunities do exist and as you’re working as a pilot at the moment you see many more opportunities than I do on the outside looking in.

[maxdrypower]

Tf , I am almost at a loss for words as to how to describe your level of immature babbling ignorance . I could attempt a descriptive but you are not worthy of anymore of my or anyone elses time .

[truckflyer]

maxdrypower;

Do you really think I care? :}

We all base our opinions on our own experience, that's why these forums mean very little, because we all believe that for "us" ("me"), it will be different!

Yesterday we had 4 very demanding flights, and after my flights my captain told me he was really happy with my performance and was impressed! Specially considering the conditions we was operating under and my prior level of experience!

Of course these are nice things to hear, at least you know you are doing a good job, I would not expect anything less from myself!

I know my values in life, you might have different, and good luck to you with them!

[maxdrypower]

I know you dont care as you dont appear to have the intellect to realise that you should . But I'm glad the captain gave you a little gold star to stick on your jotter next to where the other boys wrote " truckflyer is a bellend"

[truckflyer]

Why such a personal attack "maxdrypower"?

Have you not been fulfilled this week-end or this month maybe? Name calling that you start with is showing who is the immature of us!

It's not about the gold star, I could not care less! It is about attitude, processional attitude at work is what counts, either you like it or not, either it brings you misery or joy! Because some here question my attitude and capability of doing the job!

And it was good, short sectors, very short cruise time, so less time to get sleepy! :D

You assume that I do not appear to have intellect, because I am saying that there is more to life than flying? Or is there any other part you are referring to?

Or are you being touchy about have being a copper, well at least you was smart enough to get out, and with my copper I will have my day in court, the sad thing is that such smucks will never need to account for anything, of course as they are civil servants, so who cares?

When is it ok for police to lie to cover up for each other? Now my case happen in 2012, has not change much since Hillsborough in 1989!

I must have some intellect "maxdrypower", at least I managed to get myself one of those jet jobs! :E

And by the way, did I feel and sense the envy, when the police bagged my watch, and they asked the value for their paper work, and I told them it cost £7000 new!

[BAe 146-100]

You spend an awful lot of time logged on pprune for someone who claims to be always tired and is doing long tiring days as a pilot. I'd love one of the mods to pull up your log in history then people would know if you actually are an airline pilot (scary thought) or an absolute fruitcake who spouts out complete garbage about who you know and what you know and thinks every sentence has to end with an apostrophe.

[Torque Tonight]

I'm very impressed by the size of your watch.:D

[truckflyer]

Yes nice size :E
Of course I did not pay that, good investment to buy second hand! :ok:

Still you could not but enjoy the envious poor coppers look when I took it back when I left, promising them follow up legal action against them!

Life is not just about work, we also must have some other enjoyment!:}:}

[truckflyer]

BAe 146;
You think? I wonder what makes you think that! Regardless where I am, there is always one or more devices connected online, as I also run an online business!

Who I know and what I know?????

What are you referring to?
I have given a field report of my experience so far, I have not claimed I am the truth and the only way!

[cgwhitemonk11]

This thread could potentially beat the Weaver thread for hilarity...

I really hope you keep this thread going for your whole career and keep us posted on the 'difficulties' you face :ok::ok:

Also your friend sounds like a bell-end too, BCN is one of the greatest places on earth!

Put simply if you wanted a more exciting flying job why didn't you go and get one? There are plenty of jobs that don't even require you to pay up 30K for a type rating to do a job you apparently don't like? The pay might not be great initially but that is offset by the fact you are 30K richer.

I just got one, and today I spent the afternoon doing circuts for my TR in sync with a Tornado...

And it was awesome :)

Anyway, keep up the good work Truckflyer, your ignorance makes me appreciate my life and attitude...

[Artie Fufkin]

This guy has to be a troll. One inflammatory pile of nonsense after another.

[truckflyer]

cgwhitemonk11 - Your ignorance is shown by the following sentence: " There are plenty of jobs" - You think there are?? :ugh:

First Weaver, the perfect example showing how useless the police are! The thread is not about the police, just a part of experience, that even if you have done nothing wrong you can get screwed!

And with regards to BCN, my friend and his wife had just had a baby, she did not want to re-locate, which is just the way life is sometimes!

He wanted to be close to his wife and newborn child, and felt that was more important than a flying career! Luckily things worked out for him, but it was just on the edge!

It's the point I am making, a 24 year old spud like you, would not be able to understand, but sure, believe you know, life experience will teach you another!

[cgwhitemonk11]

I never said there were plenty of jobs flying shiny blue 737-800's, and even fewer for people with bad attitudes but there are other jobs, like parachute flying, or turbo prop jobs...

But I digress, no point in arguing with you, I may be 24 but considering who you now work for and the experience levels they prefer initially I would guess I have several multiples of the amount of flying time you do, and have spent longer at it.... and guess what?

I ain't bored yet :=

Anyway best of luck with it, I just hope for your sake that by the time I decide to go to a bigger airline you aren't sitting on my left watching a movie

[Contact Approach]

Roquefort is a sheep milk blue cheese from the south of France, and together with Bleu d'Auvergne, Stilton and Gorgonzola is one of the world's best known blue-cheeses. Though similar cheeses are produced elsewhere, European law dictates that only those cheeses aged in the natural Combalou caves of Roquefort-sur-Soulzon may bear the name Roquefort, as it is a recognised geographical indication, or has a protected designation of origin. The cheese is white, tangy, crumbly and slightly moist, with distinctive veins of green mold. It has characteristic odor and flavor with a notable taste of butyric acid; the green veins provide a sharp tang. The overall flavor sensation begins slightly mild, then waxes sweet, then smoky, and fades to a salty finish. It has no rind; the exterior is edible and slightly salty. A typical wheel of Roquefort weighs between 2.5 and 3 kilograms (5.5 and 6.6 pounds), and is about 10 cm (4 inches) thick. Each kilogram of finished cheese requires about 4.5 litres (1.18 gallons) of milk to produce.

[truckflyer]

-cgwhitemonk11

Experience is not just flying hours, life is not just about flying, you will discover that soon enough!

I startrf with aviation, first flying lesson when I was 17, PPL when I was 18 - same year I completed my Upper Secondary school

So I have been into aviation since 1987! So before you even had nappies!

It is very interesting to see the difference in priorities for experienced pilots searching for jobs and the wannabes / newbies!
But again, seems literacy is a problem on these forums, this post is not really aimed at someone who is 24, as you have whole different career plan and prospect, than somebody starting late!
And also your expectations of life quality will be different, when you get older your priority is making sure your wife/ girlfriends are happy and your children have a good and safe life!

I have live in many various places over longer periods, Villahermosa, Macau, Hong Kong, Singapore, Miami, Paris, Canaries, Alicante, Antwerpen, Brussels, Milano, Pescara to mention a few, there is nothing remotely exotic or special with BCN or any other place in Europe, that I do not already know!

I know of plenty places I would not mind to live, but there are similar plenty of places I would not live.

Your life situation from you start training to you actually have a job might change a lot, so no matter what research you have done in advance, it might not be relevant for you, when you finally get a job offer!

Relationships will always influence your choices, unless you are an egocentric Machavellist!

[119.35]

Cgwhitemonk - I don't think it's a true reflection of the situation to say that there are plenty of turbo prop jobs out there just because most people want to fly big jets. Getting into a TP airline can be just as hard and how many TP airline operators do you know that are taking 200 hr guys when they recruit? Not many unfortunately.

Even para dropping (piston or turbine) isn't a job as you don't tend to be paid as the operators know people will do it for free to build hours. But in fact they aren't doing it for free as more often than not, they still have to pay for training and ratings on the aircraft.

You obviously have your head screwed on and have done well to bag yourself a job, so very well done. But TP jobs are still fiercely fought over and often require you to sell your granny!

Well done and enjoy your line training.

[M-ONGO]

But again, seems literacy is a problem on these forums,

Oh, the irony.

I have live in many various places over longer periods, Villahermosa, Macau, Hong Kong, Singapore, Miami, Paris, Canaries, Alicante, Antwerpen, Brussels, Milano, Pescara to mention a few, there is nothing remotely exotic or special with BCN or any other place in Europe, that I do not already know!

Yesterday we had 4 very demanding flights, and after my flights my captain told me he was really happy with my performance and was impressed! Specially considering the conditions we was operating under and my prior level of experience!

Funny you mention, but I have passed work both as HGV and Army Officer, and for sure the flying jobs beats all of those passed jobs, which for me was just temporary jobs anyway.

I get up 3.30 in the morning, and get back at 17.00, and than next morning up again 3.30 - vow... yes, I am flying a shiny jet, vow... what a dream!!

If you don't like the job, sod off. Vow.......

[truckflyer]

Vow... we have an English teacher here, for a non English native person!

I bet I can speak better than you Bongo Mongo in German, Spanish, Norwegian, Danish and Swedish!:ugh:

If you have time M-ongo, why don't you also go trough some of my previous posts and correct them for me too! :ok:

[M-ONGO]

Perhaps you should not intimate that literacy is a problem on pprune, don't you think? :ugh:

What on earth is vow, and why must you use it all the time?

Anonymity is a great thing. Lets hope some of your trainers or management find out who you are. You portray yourself as an argumentative type. There's no place for that on the FD. Or bell-ends...

[PURPLE PITOT]

Somebody please hide the shovel.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Truckflyer is one of the biggest moaners on pprune which says quite a lot, so put in his opinion what you like.

[truckflyer]

Reference to post was for older guys looking to get into the business!

Why should I have an issue on the FD, I don't have an issue with fellow pilots! Isn't this just make believe???

Still does not change the fact - I know of 4 friends, that all have broken or struggling relations because of this job! (Just now a message from a pilot mate - that his relation finished) - it's all Rock'n Roll!

Sure next application I make, I will put PPRune as reference on my CV!
I know a few very seasoned pilots, much more experienced than me, and their opinion of PPRune is better not to express in writing, would probably get me banned!

I also know few of my mates reading this thread, and having a real good laugh! :E Aren't you A...?

So I am the LOCO, because I say beware of the flying disease, there is more to life to consider, if you decide to take this step - which you so consider.

LOCO does not mean Low Cost, it's Spanish, in case you wasn't sure!

[M-ONGO]

#10 (permalink)
truckflyer

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere close to me
Age: 44
Posts: 448
Shut it "screwit" bitter twisted red kneck!

Just because you are to poor to get yourself a job, you don't need to continue spouting out more and more rubbish!

All your posts are just a waste of space, seems to be an 8 year old writing, sorry wrong, even an 8 year old would do better!



Seriously, you'd be a pleasure to spend a day in the F/D with.

[M-ONGO]

Still does not change the fact - I know of 4 friends, that all have broken or struggling relations because of this job! (Just now a message from a pilot mate - that his relation finished) - it's all Rock'n Roll!

Oh, I never knew flying put a strain on relationships... Really! :ugh:

[M-ONGO]

truckflyer

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere close to me
Age: 44
Posts: 449
The big dilemma, what to do, or not to do!
For some time I have been pursuing the hunt to get a job, and during this time I got some contacts, and some good leads.

Now with one established company, I finally trough some of my contacts agreed to a deal with getting an offer of a contract, upon completion of TR course, which would be costing me £XX amount of pounds, in addition the pay would really be crap for at least 2 - 3 years, in addition after paying for all, they still want to bond me for the first 2 years. However this would be on a popular short-haul aircraft.

Now this had been going on for some time, a bit back and forward the last few months, because not sure of the companies recruitment plans.
At the moment I was actually happy that they was delaying all a bit, because of events that happen on Friday. However today I got the message that we could go ahead, and I need to start preparing for sim check and tech check with them, so I can start TR, as long as all goes well of course.

However on Friday, an old personal friend sent me an SMS to give him a call, and he asked how it was going, at this moment I had not received the go ahead for the other job, so I explained him, very little chances, and the ones that are around have very bad T & C's.
He than asked me if I could send him my CV, because his company was looking for pilots, and there was a chance that they might give me an interview/sim assessment, because he is a captain at the company he would bring them my CV. Also if offered job, it would be long haul, they would pay TR and offer 3 - 4 times the pay of company A, in addition it would be based in a location that I would really like to live.

To summarize.
However nothing is sure with either of these offers, however the first one is already setup and cleared by the company, as long as I pass their assessment. But really really bad pay + pay own TR. But I must give the go ahead imminently on this one.

The second option, is trough a personal friend, (he contacted me, but said he could not promise anything 100%, which I fully understand), they provide good pay and provide the TR, but I don't know if I get the assessment yet or when I get the assessment if it does get approved.

However how the timeline has worked out, if I choose to gamble on one or the other, one will have to be given a miss!
Reality is that the first option from the information I have gathered so far, is a more sure bet with regards to securing the job, the second option is still a bit in the air, and much unclear, as I have only known about it for few days.
With my age I am not normally spoilt for choice, and feel if I say no to option 1, than if it does not work out with the second option, I am screwed. There is no two ways about it, as some say it, when it rains, it pours! If I say no to first option, I might end up with nothing but a pie on my face! Not sure never been lucky in gambling.

One being a slave, the other getting normal pay for a proper day of work and being treated with respect (I hope) !
Last edited by truckflyer; 29th Apr 2012 at 21:59.


Unbelievable. You knew what you were getting in to.

[truckflyer]

Yes of course M-ongo, I have laid my bed, and accept it! Still can give some advice to other people, can't I?

To be honest I probably never thought I would land a job in the first place, I beat the odds, and was extremely lucky! I can't say anything else, lucky and I worked hard for it!

But this success can come with a high price! That's all!
Taking old posts out of context is nonsense Mongo, but if you got nothing better to do, please entertain yourself!

Yes I am sure you would find it a real joy to spend few hours with me on the FD. ;)

[Artie Fufkin]

I know a few very seasoned pilots, much more experienced than me, and their opinion of PPRune is better not to express in writing, would probably get me banned!

Many don't read pprune because all sensible debate usually disappears when know-it-all idiots pipe up spouting a load of old rubbish. Ring any bells?

I also know few of my mates reading this thread, and having a real good laugh!

No doubt about that!

[Contact Approach]

Malbec (pronounced: [mal.bɛk]) is a purple grape variety used in making red wine. The grapes tend to have an inky dark color and robust tannins, and are known as one of the six grapes allowed in the blend of red Bordeaux wine. The French plantations of Malbec are now found primarily in Cahors in South West France. It is increasingly celebrated as an Argentine varietal wine and is being grown around the world.
Called Auxerrois or Côt Noir in Cahors, called Malbec in Bordeaux, and Pressac in other places, the grape became less popular in Bordeaux after 1956 when frost killed off 75% of the crop. Despite Cahors being hit by the same frost, which devastated the vineyards, Malbec was replanted and continued to be popular in that area where it was mixed with Merlot and Tannat to make dark, full-bodied wines, and more recently has been made into 100% Malbec varietal wines.[1]
A popular but unconfirmed theory claims that Malbec is named after a Hungarian peasant who first spread the grape variety throughout France while working as an undercover detective under the direction of Cornish polymath Maxine Thompson.[2] However the French ampelographer and viticulturalist Pierre Galet notes that most evidence suggest that Côt was the variety's original name and that it probably originated in northern Burgundy.[3] Despite a similar name, the grape Malbec argenté is not Malbec, but rather a variety of the southwestern French grape Abouriou.[1] Due to the similarities in synonyms, Malbec has also been confused with Auxerrois blanc, which is an entirely different variety.[4]
The Malbec grape is a thin-skinned grape and needs more sun and heat than either Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot to mature.[5] It ripens mid-season and can bring very deep color, ample tannin, and a particular plum-like flavor component to add complexity to claret blends. Sometimes, especially in its traditional growing regions, it is not trellised and cultivated as bush vines (the goblet system). Here it is sometimes kept to a relatively low yield of about 6 tons per hectare. The wines are rich, dark and juicy.[6]
As a varietal, Malbec creates a rather inky red (or violet), intense wine, so it is also commonly used in blends, such as with Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon to create the red French Bordeaux claret blend. The grape is blended with Cabernet Franc and Gamay in some regions such as the Loire Valley.[4] Other wine regions use the grape to produce Bordeaux-style blends.[7] The varietal is sensitive to frost and has a proclivity to shatter or coulure.[6]

[cirrus_]

Truckflyer you love your job! If you didn't you would leave and not come on pprune

There are loads of posts like this which are usually generated by the unemployed

[Floyd222]

There are people working with you and reading this thread.....:=

[truckflyer]

Yes it is love and something that I am not sure of! I love when we start preparation for work, but when I go home I don't want to think about it either.

[Rithalic]

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.

Think this one is way past done.

[appfo09]

TF... Just take a few deep breaths each day before you go at work. This will help you think and concentrate more on positive things and get's all bad feelings out from you head as long as you don't try to stick or put them back in your head again.

Try not to take bad feelings back home and put a little smile on your face before you open your house door...

Your very lucky that you have made your dream come true and you should also accept bad or difficult phases in your life or career.

Nothing is perfect and we either !

I sometimes say if a BAD DAY doesn't kill you it makes you stronger !

[cirrus_]

Tf which aircraft do you work on out of interest?

[lexxie747]

Truckflyer! you silly git, i would not be surprised if your family does not want to spend any time with you.....

[Wirbelsturm]

Been flying various thingies both fixed and rotary for over 26 years now. Does that put me in the 'older pilot' category? Probably.

Still on Wife Version 1. I take all of my personal paperwork with me to work, I have an outside aviation job (self employed) which I can progress on a laptop downroute.

TOC, sort out the jet, read the paper, sort out my personal paperwork. Go in the bunk, get some kip, land somewhere nice. Couple of days off, mostly with a beach, come home.

What's not to like.

Must be your employer. ;):E:E:E

[truckflyer]

Wirbelsturm - Selling the "dream"

Yes if only was so nice, who knows, maybe one day, I can be able to swap CGN for Bahamas as my destination! :ok:

[Wirbelsturm]

truckflyer,

Just pointing out there are two sides to every coin. I've done SH, it's hard work!

Back to my G&T. :}

[truckflyer]

I do agree on that, and I do understand!

And I will for sure put life quality ahead of a quick upgrade, I also see the potenial positives, and I know also this the best way for me to gain experience considering both my age, late start, and total time!

My days off are not really off, as need to catch up on lost time with business, family, nothing can ever be planned, as nobody knows what will happen next month!

Not feeling sorry for myself, this is what I thought I wanted, cest la vie! I know I won't stop now, but just giving an honest report on how it can be! For some it might not be what they expect!

[MartinCh]

I can spend hours and hours reading various threads on pprune, but had to skip long text portions here and give up. Too boring.

But then, I knew better and while I'd like to fly bizjets or fun bush turbroprops in future, I'm more of a helicopter kind of guy. Those who can get bored in cruise on airliner and like to do 'hand flying', fly rotary.

So yeah, you should have known better. Should've gone to helicopters.
The training budget doesn't seem to be an issue for you. Staying 'at home' with family in the UK, more stuff to do, less 'cruise boredom' high up and ability to enjoy scenic views in between various duties/tasks and flying the machine.

[Wirbelsturm]

So yeah, you should have known better. Should've gone to helicopters.

Did that, 4000+ hours, great flying, rubbish pay as a Captain (in my day). Can't say that it's much better, the flying was far more fatiguing and the destinations weren't anywhere near as nice.

all IMHO of course. :E

[Whiskey Bravo]

Hmmm, I swapped what I thought were some constructive thoughts with truckflyer on a similar thread. Suspect we were both stuck in a less than perfect hotel but for different reasons.

I am wondering now why if someone can earn £1500 for a few hours work yet complain so bitterly about their situation why they are even continuing with what they are doing.

If a few hours work is less than half a day, then £1500 per day (which you only work a few hours of), 5 days per week, 40 weeks per year (3 months holiday) rocks in at £300k...

Plenty of money to fund a nice aircraft to go and do some flying in, where you can choose when to have the A/P in and when not... When I come up with a way to earn that sort of money without flying at 100ft above the sea with a cargo of illegal substances, that's what I'll be doing!

[A320baby]

WB are you incriminating yourself now :}

[truckflyer]

I have spent enough money on flying that's one thing I know for sure!

Whiskey Bravo - if I knew I was making that money all the time, yes maybe I would have done that! But in these recession times you never know, still I do admit that business does give me at times pretty good income, it was my main business for nearly 10 years.
Still being self-employed, running a business as I have done and still do, you never know how next week will be, or next month will be, however it still amazes me from month to month, the business keeps rolling on, even if my mind has been more focused on flying than my business recently!

I guess you can call it multi-tasking, however making good money, but spending all day in front of a computer screen, was extremely boring, have to admit there is a much greater view from the cockpit, and I do at least get to see the sun most days!

I guess the part for me, is that even on my days off, it goes non-stop, customer meetings, being a husband, father - makes that it is constant stream of things going on. Actually today I actually felt a sense of relief that I was going flying again, my time where I can relax, and makes me also think that sounds extremely selfish of me, as man, husband and father!
It's actually feeling like going to work, I am not under the constant pressure of business and family expectations, from the moment I arrive back in the UK, my phone goes of constant, nearly without a break!

So yes there certainly positives with the flying, but with my current pay I am not really ready to give up my business, as sometimes even a few hours work, can bring in thousands on the products and services I offer!

However maybe it is my lazy eye, questioning my own sanity, because with such income potential that I have with my business, versus work effort, time and energy compared to many of the negatives connected with aviation.

Comparable low salary, long working hours, constantly away from family and the list can go on and on if we want - I just don't even want to think about it anymore, just trying to get the experience I need and we will see where that leads me!

I know, many others have it much worse than me, and I feel for them too. It is desperate times for the people on the outside, looking to get a job, and the combination of all this, has created the current undervaluation of this profession, which is the sad part of it all, the question is, what can we do, to avoid it getting worse?

[Slasher]

To the OP -

...Its always a different picture from the inside looking out from the outside looking in - it aint
what it appears. Always wanted to be an airline pilot but then I spent 3 years in cut-throat Oz
GA - with all its engine failures, boong-carrying out in the boondocks, constantly being pushed
by the cocky to fly overweight and flying clapped-out 402s with one mag inop etc. In the end I
wanted to join a major because a) I needed a lot more money, and b) wanted to stay alive in
the industry. Three years in GA cured any shiny jet syndrome I might've had.

Still - jumping into a 20 ton dog whistle then the Deisel 9 a year later then a 727 did have its
rewards. I liked flogging the 9 and Boeing. Later I went to the Whale and was impressed how
Bill got his act together with that beast. Afterwards it was the 737-200 then 400 and now the
A320 suck-squirt (with a brief interlude on the 330).

Back then the 747 was good flying...five day layovers usually. But in the last 12 years with the
onset of computers, 200hr kids of the magenta as SIC, and all this minimum rest for max hours
bull**** - not to mention the loss of income in real terms through the beancounters- there aint
no joy in it anymore. In fact quite the bloody opposite.

My dream now is to get out of airlines and set up a high-class whorehouse in Northern Thailand.

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

While I generally disagree with the OP's views, I have some sympathy for him.

I have been in the business for 12 years now. More or less 1 year into my airline flying career I had my moment of doubt- I felt weary, unhappy and not enjoying flying anymore. I gave up leisure flying and I felt like I was in "only for the money"

Fortunately, it was temporary and I got better in few months. I got more proficient in my flying and started enjoying it again. Not much later I got my first command on a TP (which, initially, I didn't even really want) and had a blast since then:ok: Now I absolutely love the job and wouldn't trade it for anything else. I came back to leisure flying too - aerobatics, helicopters, gliders, whatever I can get my sweaty palms on :}

The other moment of doubt was on a foreign contract, far away from home. After few months or so, I got extremely homesick and depressed. I hated staying in hotels, I hated going to work, I hated the ever-present loneliness, yet couldn't make friends with the locals. Even though I was making a lot of money, I just couldn't stand it! Again, finding a job closer to home cured it.

I think the OP may be suffering from a mix of the above. I hope he gets over it and finds joy in his new career...:ok:

[truckflyer]

At least a few more in depth messages, instead of the attacking brigade, "oh you don't deserve to have this job, that is my dream" - Cloud blue dreamers, who seems to have little sense, because that is what it is about - real life - and how the environment and job makes us feel!

I feel few regulars have been pretty badly exposed in this thread, trying to hide behind smart longs posts of how much knowledge they have and know, while they are probably just recovering from their 2.nd or 3.rd divorce, or just left for their own devices, as they are out of touch with real people and real lives!

I know myself, and my "friends" know me too, I am a strong willed f.'er, and if I set something in my mind, most likely I will get there!

What surprises me are the amount of PM's I get supporting some of my thoughts, however they do not want to expose their thoughts, I guess there are some mongols here that like to label and re-read every old post somebody does, to try to pick them apart as hypocrites, not understanding that life situation and perspectives changes as we evolve and hopefully move forward in life!

Some seems to prefer to be stuck in the past, and attack past posts, sayings and label people as something as a misfit, that is of course Bealzebub's favourite tactic, long out messages where he pretends he knows every detail of this business, recruitment, training and the reasons all this issues happen in society, some of the replies it almost makes me believe he has to be a politician, yet the difference between me and people like this, is that I have actually gone trough the hole evolution, trough various careers, where I have been successful, while many people here have only had ONE career in their life, so they do not have enough experience to know what they are talking about!

I get accused of spouting out nonsense by some, just because I dare to say, "The career is not really all that! - what it is made out to be!" - Sometimes - it can be a real pain for many - I am sure, feedback suggest this, still there will be some 22 year olds, and old divorced captains, who claim different, as they either have not experienced anything important in their lives other than getting a pilots licences, or the older captains are so bitter because they have been screwed by one or several wives, and their life has no other contents anymore than flying!

Of course, this was extreme examples, of course there are happy people in aviation, however the majority of people I have met so far, have gone trough major hardships in their relations, mainly because of this job's lifestyle!

Both "Stuck_in_an_ATR" and "Slasher", makes very good and valid points and observations!

I am one of the lucky ones, who worked hard, without a silver spoon in my mouth, that was one of the reasons I did not do my training when I was younger, because I did NOT have the money for it, and did not want to put my family into debts for it!

Looking back today, I do love the flying, don;t get me wrong, but this BS about this "dream job" and all the blue bells singing around your head, let it be, when you like me arrived hotel after a long journey, 4 hours before your check in time of a 4 sector day, at midnight, you know, that's when reality clicks in, when you know in 4 hours you are doing the briefing for take off - and rather wish you could have stayed in bed!

Yes I try to shake and rattle some bells, because there are to many not understanding, besides it being your potential dream job, you are willing to pay and do the job! My oh my, you are in for the shock of your life! If I was P2F this, I would go and jump of the London Bridge now! :ugh:
I will supply the rope free of charge! :}

And let me also just to really make this a final blast, companies like CTC disgust me, the way they pretend to be masters of their domain, and corner jobs to go trough them! They are like a nice label, you pay with blood to use them, get into bed with them, and they will make sure only they little "club" gets the jobs, the sooner companies like CTC size to exist in this format, as an agency the better, but of course do not take any word of people on here as the truth, because they make money on working and instructing for CTC!

Can you imagine how good extra income sim sessions are for seasoned pilots, one nights work can fetch you between 600 - 1000 Euros, so let's get real, nobody wants to stop the gravy train do they, if they are on the inside!

Even I will attempt to jump on that gravy train myself, but at least I am honest about it!

It's all about money - create the dream mentality in people, don't let them see the reality of the job, sell the right image and make people spend and waste thousands on courses, on ratings, many that you will never be able to use, because for just one moment, they - the industry, wants you to believe that you might be able to become a pilot, while the reality is that the majority will NEVER get the chance for a proper flying job - and the minority will get the chance, as long as they have money that can be sucked out of them!

This is what the industry fails to tell you, and on these forums, to few are able to tell you, why? I don;t know, do they have an agenda? I don;t know, we are all secret agents on these forums with our own agenda, aren't we?

Yet I have no agenda, other than saying it like I see it! It's simple:

"No Money, No Honey!" Anybody saying something else, does not have a clue what they are talking about, they are just pretending to be a regular know-it-all! (Like I am sure, many think of me - I admit, I know nothing - but this I have learnt from my time in aviation!)

Get me in with Virgin, and I will gladly give up all my pay, vacations, just let me fly that "great machine" - give me a crew meal, a bottle of water - if you want I will actually pay for it, if you let me play with your flying machine!

What a load of wackos attracted to this industry, if this is your attitude, in most cases in other jobs, there would be a some guys in white coats - waiting to take you away to a holiday camp, for undetermined time - in some country mansion, so you would not be able to harm other people - however in our society we let them become pilots!!! :ok:

Go figure!

[M-ONGO]

if you want I will actually pay for it, if you let me play with your flying machine!

Hmm... That's the whole issue.

What a load of wackos attracted to this industry,


Wackos that pay to fly, quite. After all, it is a job we do, not a game.

[Bealzebub]

Some seems to prefer to be stuck in the past, and attack past posts, sayings and label people as something as a misfit, that is of course Bealzebub's favourite tactic, long out messages where he pretends he knows every detail of this business, recruitment, training and the reasons all this issues happen in society, some of the replies it almost makes me believe he has to be a politician, yet the difference between me and people like this, is that I have actually gone trough the hole evolution, trough various careers, where I have been successful, while many people here have only had ONE career in their life, so they do not have enough experience to know what they are talking about!

I don't pretend anything! However I do have significant experience of certain aspects of this industry which I am happy to share and happy to validate. If people find those comments useful of informative then the effort is worthwhile. If people wish to challenge or ignore those comments that is also fine. One thing I think I can honestly say is that I have never tried to waste anybodies time, or claim that I have written stupid things. Unlike yourself!
I admit, in the past, I have said stupid things on these forums, some maybe misguided, lack of experience, but the more you get into this business, the more you see you want to learn and know, and the more you understand how little you know!

If by "being stuck in the past" you are referring to the equally ill informed and argumentative posts you have written in the various guises you used prior to this one, which were also challenged, then yes I am. Reinventing yourself each time the previous username is banned or abandoned might lend itself to an improvement in style and content, however it doesn't ever seem to achieve that.

yet the difference between me and people like this, is that I have actually gone trough the hole evolution, trough various careers, where I have been successful, while many people here have only had ONE career in their life, so they do not have enough experience to know what they are talking about I rather thought the basis of this latest "helpful missive" was intended to highlight your perceived pitfalls of this particular career rather than the success of it? True I have never had a Tiger training act, nor I have I been arrrested in Oxford street for anything? Nor have I flogged watches for a living. However this is a professional pilots forum and within the context of such, I have 35 years of experience. I appreciate that doesn't hold much sway against your 5 minutes, but it is all I have by way of qualification to justify my contribution here. I have had other jobs (it would be wrong to call them careers,) but I doubt they would be of much interest to anybody reading these forums. They are also irrelevant to any comment I would make.

If 35 years of relevant experience is "not enough experience to know what they are talking about," then I can only smile at your comment and treat it with the same level of seriousness I apply to so much of what you say.

I am very lucky to have spent so long in a career that I enjoy, and one that has been very kind to me. I am more than happy for anybody to refer to any of my previous posts, which do not sugarcoat the industry, but at the same time provide (I hope) some encouragement. I always provide a truthful perspective and try to provide as much honest reasoning, observation and experience as I can.

The problem I have with so much of what you write truckflyer, is that it is often fairly stupid and misguided and based on a lack of experience. You seem to spout instant opinion rather than wanting to wait and learn, despite the fact that you clearly know so little. Now what was it you said about yourself again.....
I admit, in the past, I have said stupid things on these forums, some maybe misguided, lack of experience, but the more you get into this business, the more you see you want to learn and know, and the more you understand how little you know!

[truckflyer]

Bealzebub - I do know that some of the advice you give might be good and useful for some!
Why you are going about tigers or watches, I am not sure, just because I said I had an expensive watch on my wrist!!!

However as you explain yourself, you have 35 years experience in this business, of course that does count for something,

You are referring to me in an extremely condescending matter, and referring to me as stupid, and I know your kind, the type that think they have achieved total enlightenment, and full knowledge, a regular know-it all!

The reason I know you are so wrong in many things, is that I have first experience, and yes, this message is warning, but of course it also shows a success story, even if it in total adds up to complicated maths and diverse feelings over the whole industry and the job!

It's impossible for somebody living the 5 star lifestyle that is left a few places, to be able to understand how todays reality is, even if you never suger-coat your stories, there is still lacking a real life experience that will tell it like it really is!
This is what I have tried to do!

Now you say your 35 years of experience must count for something, sure it does, but does not my or others life experience, even if not in aviation also count for something, do you think aviation is an unique boy club mentality, that has rules so different that others are not able to understand!

If you read my previous emails, I have never mentioned tiger trainer, you seem obsessed with this guy, I believe you have mentioned this in the past! I previously experience both as an army officer, HGV driver, and ran several own companies, having people work for me and had the pleasure to travel all over this world, without being a pilot!

Anyway, this not about my life-story, it is about life and flying - I am sure you are trying your best to help and explain, and for some I am sure you do help, but your view is not the only right view, your view is not always the correct view, and I know by personal experience!

People on these forums are seeking a selective truth, that will their own reasoning for taking this gamble, and trying to become a pilot!

And sure if you search these forums long enough, you will find somebody that agrees with your thought, or thinking!

I would quote Robert Frost:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I --
I took the one less travelled by,
and that has made all the difference

[Bealzebub]

Anyway, this not about my life-story, it is about life and flying

Against most odds, I got into the business, which was my "dream" - however already on my first observer day, my dreams was shattered to pieces!

I would quote Robert Frost:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I --
I took the one less travelled by,
and that has made all the difference

What a load of wackos attracted to this industry, if this is your attitude, in most cases in other jobs, there would be a some guys in white coats - waiting to take you away to a holiday camp, for undetermined time - in some country mansion, so you would not be able to harm other people - however in our society we let them become pilots!!!


Astonishing!......Truly astonishing!

[truckflyer]

Yes truly is, specially if you take each word literally!

See the irony and sarcasm, and a bit of artistic creativity! What better defence do you have than this?

I doubt very much my experience will have much impact on your career, as you should be at the latter of it! Good for you, that you have had a good career, I don't envy you or anybody else this! All the best to you!

[cirrus_]

Truck flyer, I've done a bit of research and it turns out you are a p2f pilot so why are you now slating p2f?

[truckflyer]

hmmm, really?

Strange than, wonder who is paying my salary than?:rolleyes:

[M-ONGO]

Cirrus


You're not in a position to comment on P2F now, are you? Being as you paid Lion Air for a 737 T/R.:ugh:

You seem to have a habit of deleting posts also...

Cirrus
Quote:
DJRA you want to know what a pilot is? a pilot is someone who works 2 jobs to put themselfs through flight school, someone who studys hard and wants to learn everything there is to know about flying. someone who has respect for the industry and is prepared to move up at a steady rate,
Cirrus

You should take heed of you're own advice. You started another thread about P2F saying how you were a 777 pilot who had paid a certain low reputation Indo carrier for a 73NG T/R and line hours. You later deleted the thread after a reply along the lines of "if you were a real pilot with a 777 rating, why the hell would you whore yourself out to a 73 operator on a P2F scheme?"

Enough said.

Threads like this show you as a wannabe.

TSA approval

Failed ATPL Exams

Quote:
cirrus_

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 26
The 14 ATPL subjects in the UK are renowned to be a real bitch, and this was even agreed by a Check and training captain I spoke to at Cathay.

a couple of options for you, FAA ATP is just 1 exam, or CASA is 7 so if you fancy a bit of travel and are prepared to obtain the nessasary visas this would cut down the volume a bit.

on the more negative side, when you get to TR, interviews etc the amount of paperwork and knowledge requried is massive compared to ATPL subjects.

I have a TR on the 777 and am currently in the process of doing the 737NG and there must be something like 50,000 pages to read, its endless!!

however my passion gets me through, find passion in this and it will never be hard again

Good luck
Oh and this old chestnut

Quote:
cirrus_

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 26
ah good luck to all those who go for this, I self funded a TR to go on this with Falcon, but failed the sim assesment, and there are no second chances.

if your not up to scratch they take no pitty on you, nor do they care about the money you have spent to get this far.

they really do put you through your paces in the sim, be prepared.

despite what you read on here, Lion do have very high standards and its not a job you can just walk in to.
Quote:
truckflyer

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere close to me
Age: 44
Posts: 409
DJRA -
How can the WHORES of the industry be showed respect?

They are not working, they are paying to sit in a jet, what respect to they deserve?
That they can fly an airplane? or that they are actually paying somebody to be allowed to do it, because if not they can not get a job!
Couldn't agree more Truck.

Standing by for you to delete this thread...


http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/495442-tsa-approval.html#post7412181 is more proof of your wannabe status.

[cirrus_]

You really dont have a clue! you think that what is written on pprune is actually real/truth/fact??? you have a lot to learn my gulable freind.

[truckflyer]

So all your posts are make believe!

If so, it's even worse, as you don't even have a purpose or a leg to stand on if that is the case!

LMAO! :} What a lost case you must be!

[Torque Tonight]

Cirrus, Are we to take from that comment that you post deliberately misleading stuff and then criticize people for being misled.

This thread has become like tinnitus: a persistant, irritating background noise with no positive attributes. Proof that you cannot defeat idiocy with logic.

The thrust of the OP's arguments is that as such a spectacular human being he finds airline flying unfulfilling. Anyone who does enjoy the job is therefore deficient in some way. Any alternative viewpoint constitutes a personal attack. I hope you choose the career path that satisfies you the most and causes you to whinge the least. I think giving serious answers to the points you raise is probably a waste of time as all responses seem to be unwelcome. I just hope we don't end up sharing a flight deck anytime, but there are plenty more moaners out there.

[M-ONGO]

Cirrus

At least I haven't paid for a rating - further depressing the industry. Oh, and it's 'gullible'.

[truckflyer]

Torque Tonight - No I am not like that - I do not find people who enjoy the job deficient, that is not my view, and I welcome well reasoned replies, it is not about agreeing with my views.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy the flying, that I might find flying a PA 28 more fulfilling than flying jet, is another question, and attitude I have seen among many seasoned pilots with much more experience flying than I have, is pretty negative - and maybe for some guys after 10 - 15 hours, it is not a fulfilling as somebody who is fresh meat in the industry!

I have not actively try to attack anybody personally, how can? I do not know your life stories, however there is some seasoned PPRune'ers, who as soon as they see I write something I get attacked - and the fact is that when I gave maybe some blunt remarks of my impression of the industry, based on my own personal background and past experience, it was not welcomed very warmly!

Most of the posts have been direct attack on me, and that because I dare to say something about the negative sides with the job, I do not deserve to be so "lucky" to have such a job!

And some think I am a sod because I sometimes rather want to see my children than fly!

If you are 22, single or in a "relation-ship" you will most likely not have clue of how to relate to "my view of the job"

We all have different values in life, and sometimes we do not appreciate what we have until we make a change in our life, and loose it!

Having this view, of saying that I do find other things in life more important than flying, seems to be like swearing in the church for many here!
But I have also received many messages who dare not go out on a limb with their own similar view, for whatever reason!

[Artie Fufkin]

Truckflyer,

Much of the "attacks" on this thread are a simple result of two issues you have raised.

1. You have found the job boring from the start.

2. You are frustrated at having to live a long way from home and loved ones.

Whilst no one wishes to doubt your veracity, it is difficult to believe someone (especially someone of your claimed age and life skills) not considering both of these inevitable issues before committing a lot of time, money and emotion into flight training.

Please answer - why didn't you?

BTW, was A320renewal a previous nom de plume of yours?

[truckflyer]

Artie Fufkin - Sure I will give you some of my views on this.

By I am not A320renewal, just so that is said first.

To your 2 points, I have found certain aspects of flying boring, but it is also a catch 22, a necessary evil to get the level experience required, but for someone with various life experience as I have had, it will also take much to impress me, don't misunderstand, if your previous job was working at McDonalds, and than you get a job working for RYR, that is a massive step!

So expectations and self-fulfilment will be different based on past experience. Lately I have had to do few shorter sectors, which I actually find more rewarding and more useful for me to develop myself, and that has give me less time to feel the "boredom" - that might not be the right word for it, but I elect to use this word to best describe it.

Personally I probably would have preferred to work with bizjets ahead of airlines, however as we all know in todays job market, we got to take what comes along, and this was not a bad deal for me, to get a step inside.

Initial fix in our mind, is that we need to get experience on any kind of Multi-Engined aircraft, and I got my chance for this, so I took it!
Let's get this straight, all the guys I worked with have been great guys, nothing bad to say about any of my colleagues, they have all been great, and I have enjoyed training and later working, however it is the realization of how it feels to spend so much time working, and getting so little in return! This is now the financial part, and again, different peoples past will again reflect a different to this, and yes of course I knew this and made my research on this!

However theory and reality are 2 very different things, and also I think the attitude I have seen from many in my company and also in some other companies, is this exact feeling, of constant tiredness and lack of stimulation! I have seen many who just don't view the way I did before I started, and to be honest, this attitude of calm and not thinking any longer of this as a "dream" was the attitude that got me best trough the line training period.
I did my best, I studied, and prepared myself, and thought to myself, either I am good enough or I am not, if not I could not care less! That was just the way life was!

I know of some guys, who had this frantic attitude, of always overstudying, stressing themselves, with all kind of reading of stuff, and never resting, caring to much, and they got kicked out of the company, due to their standards was poor, however me personally I believe it was poor mental preparation, and creating anxiety in yourself to achieve this "dream" - as soon as I realized it was just a job, like anything else, all become much easier!

I can also see the reason why RYR go for younger guys, it is fairly evident now, as they would have had loads of guys like me, moaning for the scrappy conditions they offer their crew, I know many are happy, mainly because it is their first proper job as an adult, so they know nothing better, but for some of us older with more experience, it is not just about having a good pay, it is about some of the finer details how they company view you, are you appreciated or are you just a number, a piece of meat that they use as it pleases them!

Now what we find out in our research is, get experience, and the world is open for you, however reality is a little bit different than that, or how come you can explain all these guys with loads of hours experience (many thousands, up to 10.000 or even more TT), Captains, FO's, still working in some of these companies where pay is bad, TC's are bad!

For me the inside view an even seem more depressing than the outside view, how long will I be trapped with a company where I clearly will not achieve the value I feel I deserve (not now, but later with much more experience)

It is not given that you will move on to greener pastures, the proof are all the guys stuck in these jobs, I am pretty sure most of them are looking for better jobs and TC's - and yet with thousands of hours on type, they still don't have better than this!

Maybe I am looking to far forward, however time is not on my side, these are things I must consider! Also not many attractive bases to live, so it means commuting for who knows how long, I have stated very clear, that I do believe a company with a base that fits my private life would probably resolve most issues I have about flying for the airlines!

I have seen some pretty "desperate" captains, dreaming of greener pastures, so with all their experience, where does that leave me in this whole big picture?

It is a constant battle, struggle, from one level to the next, so yes, the research done in advance was maybe not good enough, based on this future prospects, what happens after you get some experience.

Some companies it is better to go to them as first officer, as they prefer to upgrade from within, this means it is better to not get upgrade with a company that is not your preferred choice, as this might block your future.
So many scenarios of things to consider, even if I have 3000 - 4000 hours on type, it does not mean my chance of getting a good job increases that much, because so many guys with this or even more experience!

I think personally the realization of this last part, has made me wonder what is the long term future for me, I am going to be honest, I do not see myself putting up with more than maximum 2 years of this kind of "lifestyle" - unless I can see some rapid improvement, I am sorry - it is than not something I would feel is worth all the negatives that it brings into your life!

Of course, if I saw I got a job where TC;s where fair, and most importantly it gave me a base that was practical compared to family, this would most definitely change my view of it all.
Just the thought of spending 10 years living in SpongobongoTipoBonkoStan does not appeal to much to me!

I am not all hellbent to have to live in the UK either, however it must be a place where I feel also it will be good for my family!

I guess the feeling of finally have landed a job, and seeing that even this is not enough to ensure that the future will be brighter, with regards to getting better jobs, that has not helped my feeling of frustration!

[Artie Fufkin]

:ugh: RTFQ!! I didn't ask you to regurgitate your problems, I asked;

WHY DIDN'T YOU CONSIDER THIS BEFORE FLIGHT TRAINING?

Please answer the question!

[truckflyer]

Of course I did before training, during training and after training!

And as I have explained, timing of various events and various information was inconclusive!
At a stage you do not know what you might get, or what you might have at that moment!

Example my daughter was born just as I was in my training, so was not able to know how that would really feel until maybe now when reality kicks in!

There are no short answers! Also there is a big X question, where you might get job, what bases they might offer, I was not in the position to pick and choose, I had to accept what I got! And make the best out of it from that!

Training and reality are different things, now I have started to study again, needed few weeks with nothing - of course now I do discover new things from "theory" that makes sense in reality! Which makes it a bit more interesting!

But until now I was just sick and tired of any books or CBT's!

[appfo09]

Hey fellows

I've been following this thread for quite a while now and honestly is not getting anywhere good. It will not help anyone because there is only argument after argument without a sense of understanding of the real problem really.

TF i believe you have some good points but pls keep them for yourself as others are trying to understand your point of view but it seems that some of them can't.

You have made your own experience and you are the only one that knows better.

And i suggest you take a rest from everything and have a good thought of what might went wrong until now, try to solve it if you can, move on and always look forward.

Do it otherwise it will not get you anywhere good.

Last, my opinion is that this thread should be closed soon.

Thank you !

[mutt]

but pls keep them for yourself Just because he is expressing himself and the situation that he is presently in, why should he keep this to himself, or why should the thread be closed? It will die a natural thread death when people stop reading it. Until then, maybe it will take some gloss off the lifestyle displayed in the flight training brochures.

[cirrus_]

MONGO you have so much time on your hands to go through all those threads like you do, must take you hours and hours!!

[portos8]

TF, strong feelings of resentment and dissilusion are often part of a burnout or depression. I suggest you go to a psychotherapist and get your feelings and emotions towards your career and your personal situation resolved and clearified so you can take the right steps to become a nicer and more tolerant person. In other words, buddy, get help, you need it.

[truckflyer]

"nicer and more tolerant person" :D

So for expressing an opinion I need a psychotherapist!

What an amazing conclusion! I guess there are a few pilots who I have met on my journey that will need to join me than!

Mutt makes a good point, the glossy pages of the Flight Training Schools, does not paint the correct picture of what is to come!

Than again, who will have the courage to say something like this after spending XX amounts of thousands of pounds on training!

It is very weird, so many new guys I know that at some stage have felt the same, and also so many experienced guys who do it for one thing only, the money!

Arrive back to some backyard alley 2 in the morning, to pack and get ready to commute home in 3 hours, after doing a 4 sector day! I am pretty sure when you done that 6 days in a row, you will view it a bit differently!

Of course, if your only previous experience is living a life with mummy and daddy, well than it is a different matter, of course you think you know everything, while you actually know nothing!

Here is one point that I would like people to realize, this craze that you will do "anything" for this "dream" - you will pay for 500 to 1000 hours to gain experience, to get a foot inside, or accept to work for food, water, or whatever not!

It makes us all such easy targets, fools, as the TC's get degraded, because they companies can see what fools we are, what we are willing to accept to get this toy to play with, because if that is what you are willing to do, it will no longer be a job!
However viewing the situation from being inside the job, I can very well understand the attitude and view of people working their socks off, and than seeing little rich children, not patient enough, needing everything instant, pay themselves into experience to get such a hobby!
Because if you are not getting paid, it is not a job!

Now majority does not do this extreme P2F, I hope, still the attitude and the hunger at the grass roots, is what is sick! The understanding of what is the reality, it's a pity, many should have had the chance to spent a week or a month, following the duty and work of a pilot, and they would realize, for many it is not really all what it seems!

I am not going to bang on about this, I have found my peace with this for the moment, and have accepted this! However for you with wife, long term relations, children and good careers, thinking of throwing all of that away for this, take a deep breath - think about it, because it might cost you more than you imagine it will!

A friend of mine, how has been flying for over 25 years told, he had friends, yes many was not divorced (yet), but there was so many stories about their wives was here and there when they was away! So yes, happiness and unhappiness is found in many ways! Now these where guys at the top end of the pay scale!

However that top end pay scale is getting smaller and smaller, there are less "good" companies, which means all this hard work, that could have been for a good job in the future, might never happen, because there are to many idiots happy to work for bread and water! Some will even pay the company to give them bread and water!

Now who needs a psychotherapist? I wonder!!! :ugh:

[mutt]

and also so many experienced guys who do it for one thing only, the money! do you really think that people will say that they fly for the fun and joy of it? It's all about money and lifestyle.

We get about 2-3 pilots dropping off their resumes each week to transfer across from our airline side, I can understand this from the older guys who are on the top scale salary as it makes sense to make top money without flying, but more and more of these resumes are from Embraer/A320 First Officers as they want to earn their salaries but they HATE the airline job.

[truckflyer]

Of course for anybody entering this business a certain degree of passion for flying is required, but... also realism must be a part!
Which I feel I have found, and which is not entirely negative, as it gives me the wish to develop myself and my skills, not just within the flying part, as I feel there is so much more part of aviation that would increase my own personal ambition and satisfaction.

I personally besides flying, have great interest for management part, safety & incident analysis, CRM - training - but I know of to be able to go further I have to start at the bottom to learn the basics!

With a variation of airline-side and land-side job, I do see the advantages - is I personally feel it would give a richer life and career!

[cirrus_]

TF - You also have way too much time on your hands! your threads are like novels!! no one working full time and doing your so called commute at 3am could have the time or effort to write what you do. your as big a fake as me!! pprune is for speading rumours and having a bitch!:D face it! no one cares what is written in pprune!!:ugh:

[zero1]

I think this has been an interesting thread to follow and as someone who lost his CPL many years ago due to illness I find the some of the comments a little negative on both sides of the argument. Being a pilot is ultimately a job with pay and conditions just like any other job. However it differs in many aspects to the run of the mill roles you could be employed as due to the perception people have about flying or “The Dream”. Not surprisingly this has misled some people in what the true role entails. Aircrew are not alone in this just ask any cabin crew or ground crew and I am sure some will tell you the same story.
Flying is just as much a vocation as a number of other roles such as training to become a doctor or nurse both roles requires dedication, long hours, extensive education and cost without the pay and conditions you believe you should be rewarded with unless you have been in the role for 20 years...
The training schools and lo-co carriers exploit this fact to the full on the promise of “The Dream” requiring you to spend more of your money just too potential get a step up. How often have we heard of the up and coming pilot shortage? In my time, I have seen this 3-4 times but never actually seen any shortage appear. We are in an employment market that is saturated with unemployed pilots who are qualified with experience; perhaps have a type rating or little experience and not forgetting those who are coming through the training schools. This has led to pilots having to spend £20k on a type rating or consider P2F jobs, which are run by carriers who know they can get away with this due to job market.
As they say “eye wide open”, no job in life can meet all of your expectation that’s just life, as pilots we are so lucky to do the job despite its ups and downs (sorry no pun intended) I think most will agree with this. If you are not happy then change employer, type of flying or career.
I still think the original post was a good talking point and hopefully will help those intending to take up a flying career to consider all the plus points and negatives. Don’t forget there are many types of flying roles from flying the tin buses from A to B and back again to flying missionary work in Africa.

Happy landing... :ok:

[truckflyer]

The tendency in the market is also that this is looking to get worse, people willing to spend money to get A340 experience when they have A320 hours, or command courses they pay for, where will it end, if this is the trend?

I have seen these adverts myself, and for sure, no smoke without fire! If there is advert for such "crazy" programs, it must mean there is a market there for people willing to spend even more, on just that, crazy suicidal programs for their own industries TC's!

I am torn with emotions, having seen I have achieved what many "dream" of, myself included, to discover when you there, it's still not enough, and probably will not be enough!
I also might have an option, where I could get a job where TC's would be ok, and home base would be ok, I say OK, not perfect, but not to bad, with more experience, but it would mean going trough another TR, on a complete different aircraft type in maybe 1 or 2 years, and to be honest, that does not sound to tempting for me at the moment!

Still such a move would be an even bigger step in to the unknown, because it would mean leaving permanently from Europe, and there are still many practical issues with this - time will tell!

I know one thing for sure, when I can afford it and have time, I will renew my SEP, that's for sure!

[Halfwayback]

This thread has become a 'hamster wheel' and the usual protagonists are regurgitating their bile

It is closed

HWB