French Air Strikes Over Mali

[keesje]

Hi, I think there's no topic yet about this latest war.

Since friday the French decided they had to intervene to prevent Islamists overtaking Mali. Those already occupy half the country.

It seems french fighters stationed in Tsaad were there first. They apparently were already stationed there for some time (apparent having good low flying opportunities.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZyVhTo4hyE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

During the week-end Mirage2000 and Rafales were added. Unclear to me if the rebels were really stopped or are still advancing.

Airstrikes seem to concentrate in the narrow part of the country. Lots of countries around that seem moderately stable and have a history of violent civil wars, corruption, natural resources and tribal links.. I hope this won't spread..

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/fo0114_maliattacksb.jpeg

[Temp Spike]

Uh...Viva La France!


...but uh...why is this fighter pilot using a map like Granny Yokum? A little Nav system up-grade for our French Air Force friends please.


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKerhDVytkmRgxB74CiLw57NYhF2ylfVLrQprxf5F omsLeutzbRA Granny Yokum Low level Attack

[Trim Stab]

Fairly normal to use road-maps for navigation in Africa. They cost just a few pennies at the local market.

[ORAC]

Good overview of the situation in The Grauniad (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/15/mali-france-military-intervention).

[Temp Spike]

Oh yeah that's a good idea. Near mach, 80 feet off the ground and the wingman is reading an ONC map. I guess the lead is a woman.

Must be the the wherethefcukawee tribe.

[Trim Stab]

France24 reporting that Britain has pledged "additional transport planes" - any confirmation?

[Lonewolf_50]

Temp Spike, what do you mean by "near mach" in your criticism of the low level training route?

keesje: thanks for posting that video. That training route looks like a lot of fun.

[BOAC]

why is this fighter pilot using a map like Granny Yokum? probably worried about getting the wrong bushy-topped tree?

[SASless]

Pray tell how you use Tac Air to defeat an Insurgency without committing overwhelming numbers of ground forces?:ugh:

Are current day military leaders and politicians unable to grasp the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan.....after having been there for years?:=

[BOAC]

without committing overwhelming numbers of ground forces - watch this (largish) space.:ugh:

[Lonewolf_50]

Is there any reason to deny the Tuareg a homeland? Maybe the lines on the map are wrong, and there is a natural border/breaking spot somewhere in the northeast of Mali.

As to homelands:

Kurds don't get one
Pashtun don't get one

Muslims in Bosnia get one
Kosovars get one
Jews get one
Slovaks get one
Ethnic Kuwaitis get one. (Heh, I expect some laughs at that one :E)

Who gets to choose? :confused:

[Trim Stab]

Pray tell how you use Tac Air to defeat an Insurgency without committing overwhelming numbers of ground forces?

Are current day military leaders and politicians unable to grasp the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan.....after having been there for years?

France was forced to leap in when it became apparent that Mopti (and its airport) were about to fall. I suspect that now that the airport is secured, French forces will secure the South Western half of Mali. Mauritania, Algeria and Niger have all "closed their borders" with Mali, so the North Eastern half of Mali is now more isolated than previously (though I suspect that there is still a fair bit of cross border movement to Algeria and Mauritania).

The French plan is for ECOWAS troops to attempt to recover control of the NE half. I can't see that happening though. The only African troops in ECOWAS with any desert experience are Burkina and Niger. They would have to rely on French armour and air support.

It'll be interesting to see the outcome of the cabinet meeting today. UK top brass are apparently opposed to intervention, but there will be a lot of political pressure on Cameron to lend more support. French are also piling on pressure to Germans and Italians. Wouldn't be surprised if we end up giving more air support.

[Temp Spike]

SASless...I agree.

Mechanized Infantry will be required. Accompanied with airmobile light Infantry and lots of attack helicopters. BUT, contact with these antagonists must be made first because they are not all terrorists being merely paid by terrorists to cause trouble and if it’s a jobs program they want, well that is preferable to war and mass slaughter.

[Andu]

Ethnic Kuwaitis get one.Nearly choked on my wheaties (before I saw the qualification) on that one. A not too long ago Brit ex-ambassador to KSA made a rather memorable (and refreshingly non-PC) comment about Saudis and their lovely country that anyone with any experience of the Kuwaitis would say also applies to them - times two.

I really can't see that the West can keep sending (always too small, and always too late) "fire brigades" to quell the ever-growing number of political spot fires (set, almost always by the same AQ mob, it would seem) ad infinitium.

For one, we (the West) are broke, (even if too many of our citizens, particularly those with their hands out for endless government-supplied 'free stuff', haven't accepted that yet), and secondly, (particularly, but not only, those very same people with their hands out for 'free stuff') are tiring of their governments spending borrowed money to fix these many spot fires.

Imagine if WW2 had been fought the way we're dealing with this serious threat (for threat it is) to our society and way of life? It would still be going on today. The people we're (only 'semi') fighting respect only one thing - overwhelming strength. Until that is shown to them - and more importantly, to the men who are bankrolling them**, and in no uncertain terms, the ratchet is just going to go on tightening more and more.

** I for one think that the people in power in the West know exactly who those men are, but are unwilling to confront them.

I find myself almost expecting to see Barak Obama stepping off Air Force One waving a piece of paper declaring "peace in our time".

[Temp Spike]

Or another Bush debacle declaring mission accomplished a decade before the fact. Try Muesli. Wheaties are for children with anabolic steroid dreams of mindless grandeur.

[SASless]

Wait a Mo'.....were we not told the Guvmint was taking down all the financial support for the AQ Team? I know a lot of folks breathed a lot easier....in DC/London and Saudi when Bin Liner got whacked as he could probably tell some tales and name some names that folks would really not wish to see in the Morning Newspapers.

[wiggy]

Near mach, 80 feet off the ground

Well it felt and sounded like one of them did just that, in the dark, over chez nous about an hour ago.....no complaints from me.......

FWIW we live near a town that "hosts" one of the "Regiment Chasseur Parachutistes" so many of my kids' school friends have just been deprived of mama or Papa TFN (and FWIW they've lost a few in Afganistan).....It's far to easy to resort to stereotypes and crack jokes about the French and white flags, personally I wish them the best of luck.

[Robert Cooper]

looks like there are about 2,500 troops going in now and more about to deploy. There is a build up going on it would appear.

[Trim Stab]

French Military are preparing for a long term offensive:

Mali : "Cette guerre est un engagement de long terme" (http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2013/01/15/mali-cette-guerre-est-un-engagement-de-long-terme_1817161_3212.html)

In France, it is regarded as the "second half of the Libya campaign", since the instability in Mali was a direct consequence of the Libya campaign. I think it inevitable that UK will increase its contribution sooner or later.

[West Coast]

Temp spike

The navy put that banner up, not Bush.

The press jumped on it. Kinda the same way people think Palin said she could see Russia. Nothing like wanting it to be true to mislead the liberal sheep.

[Trim Stab]

Situation seems very fluid. France seems to have decided to head up north alone, rather than wait for an African force to be assembled. They have sent a force of around forty APCs into the rebel territory.

The remnants of the Mali army have been defecting to the rebels, which may be a factor in the decision to press ahead quickly.

[Courtney Mil]

Bien joué, France!

Once again, France have been quick to step in and deal with the latest threat to world peace, no dithering like everyone else. Very pleased to see UK, US, Canada assisting. I wish we would do more.

Bonne chance et tout retour en toute sécurité! Vive la France.

:ok:


Edited to correct my dreadful French.

[Nopax,thanx]

So who are this "French Air"? A new airline perhaps??

and why are they on strike.....???


Mind you, they are French :p



Sorry, couldn't resist that one; I know; coat, door......

[Trim Stab]

According to Le Monde, French SF now involved in hand to hand fighting with rebels.

Combats "au corps corps" entre Franais et islamistes au Mali (http://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2013/01/16/mali-les-forces-terrestres-francaises-remontent-vers-le-nord_1817490_3212.html)

French doing it properly - no p*ss*ng about with "precision strikes" from drones accidentally blowing up wedding parties...

[Courtney Mil]

French doing it properly - no p*ss*ng about

Well said. That's how the French do things. Maybe we could learn a thing or two.

coat, door

That's Côte d'Or, I think you'll find.

AND ANOTHER THING

To those that think your "white flag" and similar jokes are amusing, these are brave professionals going in to sort out yet another Al Qa'ida threat and putting their lives on the line on our behalves. We should all be grateful to them; no, we should be doing a lot more to support them. I look forward to your reactions the next time anyone makes a similar 'joke' about your nation's troops in AFG. Maybe you'd like to to be the one to write letters to the families of our allies' military personnel if the the worst happens. Cheap shot, well out of order.

[West Coast]

Awfully early to make predictions unless they're not predictions but swipes elsewhere given you haven't a clue as to the direction of the campaign unless you somehow have access to its tactics, plans, levels of equipment, logistics. ( you're welcome) and mission goals. None of which you do.

Forward looking statements are fraught with danger of failure.

[Trim Stab]

WC - the fact that they have moved to hand to hand fighting so early in the conflict shows firstly that they have a lot of courage and second that they are taking care to single out the real enemy and not alienate the local population who, so far, are wholeheartedly supporting their invasion.

[West Coast]

That they are in that proximity to enemy combatants using those measures indicates to me something has gone wrong. Minimizing civilian casualties by making a decision to physically engage is not sound military strategy as it places the French at a disadvantage and can potentially lead to a higher number of casualties. You don't buy lots of nice shiny kit to make a rational decision to put it aside and get in a knife fight. You don't sustain a war by unnecessarily putting your own troops in greater danger than need be, talk about a morale killer to be told drop your rifles and draw your fighting knives. You don't build support in the home front sending flag draped coffins home at a rate greater than the public can stomach.

If its a pride thing on your part, I get it, I don't doubt the bravery of the French troops involved.

[hval]

West Coast,

In situations such as Mali, where there are centres of populations (nodes) separated by large distances, the main focus for fighting becomes these nodes. You will find that many of the French ground forces are operating in a FIBUA environment. FIBUA is taking place after air attacks on these nodes have taken place.

The Islamist fighters are also digging in in these node points. The French forces have to confront them in these locations.

I would suggest that these are correct tactics as well for many reasons.

Edited to add that you will also find that troops are more than likely making attempts at locating and repatriating those hostages of many nationalities that have been taken.

[West Coast]

Is FIBUA is fighting in built up areas? MOUT in my lexicon.

If so, there a greater chance of physical encounters, but it's not what's planned. You simply do not enter a building with the intent of using your hands or a knife as a primary weapon. Hand to hand combat is rarely the proper tactic. It places the French at a disadvantage. There are weapons designed for close quarters battle, if the US military has them and uses them, I have to believe France being a professional military force has them and trains to use them as well.

You going to have a hard time convincing me that physical encounters are preferred method of the French military. It happens, but to infer its the preferred tactic is absurd.

[hval]

West Coast,

My apologies, yes FIBUA is MOUT.

I suspect that the fighting "hand to hand" is meant to reflect the closeness of the fighting rather than actually fighting hand to hand.

There are tools for MOUT/ FIBUA. The USA has been able to afford many of them. Other nations not so many, but yes there are still some useful tools.

The French have reacted to the request for assistance in Mali very quickly. I suggest that they do not have all their tools with them, nor do they have sufficient troops to do anything other than what they are doing.

[West Coast]

If they have troops in place, then any competent logistics load out would have them here as well. We're talking mostly about personal weapons and a differing set of tactics trained in garrison, not some convex box of exotic high tech goodies.

Unless you or trim stab have inside information from those there, theres not enough information available in the public domain to what the situation on the ground is and thus no way to pass any kind judgement as to success or otherwise.

That said, tactics while dynamic have a common theme of putting you in an unfair fight for the other guy.

[hval]

You have to remember that the troops had to travel light. I can think of a number of portable tools that wouldn't have been taken which would have helped.

[West Coast]

Also not having the specifics, I generically say that until the proper folks and the proper gucci is in place that they shouldn't engage. I recognize that situations, especially defensive ones don't always permit time, but if the mission is offensive (which it sounds like from news reports) after force protection is complete, THEN you push the offensive.

[TBM-Legend]

Well done France and other supporters.
This Muslim thing is only just beginning.

[Time to bring 'Beau' Geste out of retirement....]

[AC3854]

Re FIBUA/MOUT - aka FISH = fighting in someone's house ...

[Temp Spike]

Wiggy
I'm with you.

The French have a fine military and they use it without all the stupid fan-fare that we in the U.S., do. We should have the courage to send troops to help our French friends as they have done for us. Wonderful to see the Blue White and Red leading a coalition of like color national standards into glory defending the innocent!

Viva La France!

Casablanca La Marseillaise - YouTube

[Courtney Mil]

Good speech, TS. :ok:

[tartare]

Dunno if I entirely buy the talk of well armed and well trained militants.
I sure wouldn't want to be some scrawny, henna-bearded thug on the business end of a Rafaele, 2000D or F1.
Or facing French ground troops.
Those hand amputating, extremist bullies are finally going to get some.
Personally I hope the French infantry drive them all into a wadi and the Armee de l'Air turn them into charcoal.
Good hunting.

[Reinhardt]

I generically say that until the proper folks and the proper gucci is in place that they shouldn't engage after force protection is complete, THEN you push the offensive. You going to have a hard time convincing me that physical encounters are preferred method of the French military. It happens, but to infer its the preferred tactic is absurd. Minimizing civilian casualties by making a decision to physically engage is not sound military strategy
Those past quotes are such a beautiful illustration and summary of fundamentally different tactics and state of minds between the two countries and military, that I'm going to keep them as a gem for future use, and to forward them immediately to some people in higher positions, both at home and to the other side of the Atlantic. And you don't know who I am and who I know. That could even be a subject of a major discussion in some War College.
Basically in my country we take great pride in avoiding indiscriminate bombing, thus trying trying not to alienate the people we are supposed to help or liberate. The least we can say is that it has not been the case in recent years for another military, with the results you know. A couple of failures, from Vietnam to Irak and Afghanistan/Pakistan, should make you more humble.
You are famous for logistics and long-range support for your combat troops (namely LGB being fropped from F15E to smash a couple of guys in a cave with a machine gun - how effective) You are also famous for zapping everybody who has been looking at your soldiers strangely along the road. That's simply not the way we fight - and once again, I have a certain knowledge of the business - I cannot say more on this forum as I have to stay anonymous.
Yes, fighting "hand to hand" does reflect the closeness of the fighting rather than actually fighting hand to hand - no, we are not using daggers, just 50 Cal, 20 mm in turrets and guided missiles from either combat helicopters or APC, with the appropriate level of Air Support.
We are going to send our "Infanterie de Marine", "Cavalerie", "Parachutistes" and of course Foreign Legion, on appropriate trucks (the famous VLRA) and light reconnaissance vehicules, also some wheeled sorts of battle tanks, all of them with already extensive combat experience of the African bush, not mentioning the Afghan or Bosnian mountains or the Guyana forests.
We will accept to take some risks and casualties (hopefully if they are from the other side it will be better) As our President said two days ago " we will destroy them, and if possible, take them as prisoners "

[hval]

West Coast,

I generically say that until the proper folks and the proper gucci is in place that they shouldn't engage. I recognize that situations, especially defensive ones don't always permit time, but if the mission is offensive (which it sounds like from news reports) after force protection is complete, THEN you push the offensive.


If the French do not engage you allow the enemy more time to prepare. Offensive tactics keep the enemy of their feet; particulalry when the enemy are extremely mobile, fluid and well armed. The enemy went in to nodal areas (sorry, conurbations). The more time you allow them within a conubation the more difficult it is to take. So, do you hang off until you have loads of troops who have to deal with IED'd prepared buildings and take many losses? The other option is to continue the offensive knowing you might lose troops, but probably a lot less than the original scenario.

By delaying the offensive you also allow the enemy to develop strategy and tactics, develop positions, bring troops in to theatre and much more. The enemy can bring more troops to theatre than the French for any given period of time. The enemy could also decide to disapear, only to reappear when the french have gone.

The above are only a few reasons why the French are carrying out their task as they are.

I have an extremely high opinion of the French top level troops. They are extremely competent, and experienced - particulalry in places such as Africa.

[hval]

Reinhardt,

Je suis d'accord avec vos pensées et les perceptions monsieur. Très amusant.

[Trim Stab]

This maybe the reason:

France and Mali urged to let journalists into war zones - Reporters Without Borders (http://en.rsf.org/mali-france-and-mali-urged-to-let-17-01-2013,43920.html)

[Lonewolf_50]

Were I the French commander, I'd tell the Journos to piss off until I was good and ready to put up with them.
A bit busy at the moment.
Also, each journo is yet another hostage waiting to feed the AQIM coffers.

However, I am not the French commander. We shall see how this works out.

[tartare]

Speaking purely as a civilian armchair general - interesting the international media commentary in the last few hours about the "stunning ability" of the Masked Brigade and Battlion of Blood to operate in the remote desert and attack the Statoil Tigantourine gas facility in South Eastern Algeria.
Assuming this is linked with Mali - once again - hyping up the ability of the militants I suspect.
Regardless of the number of hardened Touareg fighters that may have switched sides, do we think AQ may have badly mis-calculated here in trying to drive a Sahara uprising?
In the French, they're facing a ruthlessly pragmatic opponent, well versed in realpolitik.
There's no US squeamishness in Paris - even under a socialist President.
Specifically, if Reinhardt is right, among other French units AQ are also up against The Legion, who have over a century of desert experience in their own spiritual homeland of Algeria, as well as the Troupes de Marine.
France has it's own IMINT platform in Helios 2 - multi-spectral resolution down to 30cm from orbit.
Wouldn't be surprised if a Rubis or Triomphant class boat was lurking off Mali right now ready to deliver any fire support needed.
And at the end of the day (being an aviation forum) there are also your French colleagues who have shown in Tchad that they can fly lower than a snake's belly (not that they'd do that during a ground support mission).
Will be intriguing to see this play out.
La mission est sacrée, tu l'exécutes jusqu'au bout et si besoin, en opérations, au péril de ta vie.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Wouldn't be surprised if a Rubis or Triomphant class boat was lurking off Mali right now ready to deliver any fire support needed.
Ahem, I would be surprised given the distance between Mali and any sea (i.e. subs no so useful re: intelligence gathering), and the weapons on French subs (torpedoes, perhaps short-range SAMs, perhaps cruise missiles (MdCN: not ops IIRC) and nuclear SLBMs): not really fit for the job in Mali IMO ;)

Cheers.

[BEagle]

"To those that think your "white flag" and similar jokes are amusing...."

Quite. The only white French item which might be seen in Mali would be le képi blanc. And if la Légion are involved, the insurgents should be afraid, VERY afraid.....

And yes. Any journo trying his luck should be told firmly «Va te faire foutre!»

[skua]

Oh Beags, mon brave! "Lavez votre bouche avec savon et eau."

Mais je suis d'accord.

[tartare]

AZR - I had assumed that they would carry some sort of long range cruise missile aka Tomahawk (which has a published 1300 nm range - more than enough to hold all of Northern Mali at threat through a Mauritanian overflight).
I see MdCN will only be deployed on the Barracuda class boats by 2017, so stand corrected.

[Easy Street]

Wouldn't be surprised if a Rubis or Triomphant class boat was lurking off Mali right now

I thought that was going to be the cue for the pro-carrier crowd to come out squawking about the inflexibility of land-based air power! However it would appear that, once again, carrier-based aircraft would be dependent on land-based AAR...

[Trim Stab]

Wouldn't be surprised if a Rubis or Triomphant class boat was lurking off Mali right now ready to deliver any fire support needed.

Yep, it has just been spotted in Burkina Faso

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11994808/640/11994808.jpg (http://picturepush.com/public/11994808)

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

OK tartare :)

I'm also in the mood to say that, even with cruise missiles equipped subs, France would not have used them in Mali. Indeed, France has cruise missiles (SCALP, or Storm Shadow in anglo-saxon terms) to be used by aircrafts (M2000D, Rafale) but did not use them.

In fact, I believe even US (or UK), who have a tendency to be prolific with the "battlefield prep" with cruise missile would not have done so here.

A cruise missile is an expensive weapon, to be used when needed:
- high profile target (not that much in Mali... if any...)
- no way to do otherwise (no way to "simply" send a bomber) e.g. due to SAMs (not a factor in Mali)

Cheers
AZR

[Thelma Viaduct]

As above, SCALP is just an expensive 'stealthy' method of delivery for a 1000lb bomb in a high threat environment. Would be a total waste of money, concrete blocks would take out slims, no need to go overboard.

[Heathrow Harry]

the insurgents have been able to operate in an environment without any air threat - now they have to adapt quickly - means scattering their forces, moving by night in small numbers etc etc - makes it much easier for the Mali Govt forces - just a few air strikes a day will keep them on the back foot

[recceguy]

It's a pleasure to have the Brits and the Cans performing ancillaries duties as auxiliary forces, supplying French Forces with logistics...
Judging by pictures, and looking at maps, it seems to be a huge operation, involving the whole spectrum of hardware (Mirage F1, 2000, Rafale, transport aircraft, Pumas, Gazelles and Togers helicopters, various APC and SUV, special forces and recces...)
Regarding african nations being on theater, Chadian forces have a reputation of being too much effective (in other words, although being also muslims, they hate those arab islamists, and are famous for not bothering about prisoners, after decades of desert warfare - along with the Frenchies)

[keesje]

It seem the campaign has some success. Although truth is always the first victim in any war..

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/22/world/africa/french-airstrikes-push-back-islamists-in-central-mali.html

[dead_pan]

Togers helicopters

Not sure I'm familiar with this type - a name like that will no doubt strike fear into the heart of any God-fearin' rebel! "Run for your life Ahmed, the French are using their Togers..."

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

AFRICOM confirmed US logistics was now involved in transporting troops and cargo from Istres AB to Bamako, and US assets participated in intelligence gathering.
The US did not confirm the types nor numbers of involved aircrafts [edit] but it seems it's 2x C-17s for the logistic part.

On the same time, a convoy of Tchadian armored vehicles is in Niger, bound to the Malian border. This is part of the deployment of African MISMA.

[ORAC]

Ouch!! French put the boot into NATO and EU.....

Going it Alone (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/338894/going-it-alone-andrew-stuttaford)

BRUSSELS – A senior French military officer has said France is better off without Nato or EU help to reconquer north Mali. Colonel Michel Goya, a serving officer and an expert at the l’Institut de Recherche Strategique de l’Ecole Militaire in Paris, told EUobserver in an interview on Thursday (24 January): “We have more freedom of action if we do it alone than if we go through Nato procedures. It would be even worse at the EU level. If we do it alone, it’s more efficient in military terms.”

He said Nato operations run into problems because some countries take a back seat. “In Afghanistan, you have some countries who really fight and others who do very little. For example, the German contingent and the Italian contingent don’t have a combat role [to be more fair, the colonel ought to have pointed out that both countries have taken their losses in Afghanistan]. There are many countries who do not want to fight, so working in the coalition is very tough,” he noted.

“In Libya, we were less efficient because we used Nato command structures … If you have to react quickly to events, it’s better to do it at a national or bi-national level,” he said.

He was even more critical of EU “battlegroups.” France, Germany and Poland on 1 January activated the Weimar Battlegroup – a joint force of 1,700 men which can, on paper, be sent to a hotspot within five to 10 days of the decision being made. “The EU doesn’t know how to wage war. It’s not prepared to launch military operations of this type [Mali],” Goya said.

“Battlegroups are fine if there is no combat"…

[FODPlod]

I have long held that our difficulty with the French stems from the fact that they know they are right, too; even when our views differ. :)

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Well, I suppose it's always easier to agree with yourself than with others, indeed ;)

"NATO works great and is efficient, but it knows only one pace: its own". Another quote from another senior officer, re: Libya experience. :)

Finally, one should also remember the same kind of "frustration" reported by US troops in the early years of Afghanistan campaign, re: fire restrictions imposed on French assets by Paris (CAVEATs).

Bonnet blanc et blanc bonnet. :p

Cheers
AZR.

[Courtney Mil]

I've said it before, the French don't mess about and certainly do a good job of resisting external influence when it comes to acheiving their objectives. I don't think they're "putting the boot into NATO" or the EU, it's simply a very valid statement of fact. The bigger the forum/alliance/consortium, the longer it takes to reach agreement and to act.

I never saw Lewis Carroll as a military commentator before, though. ;)

[cuefaye]

Some examples please?

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Important aerial activity those last days above north-Mali.

Le mamouth: Importante activité aérienne au-dessus du nord-Mali (actualisé) (http://tinyurl.com/2moreRafale)

2 more Rafale in-theatre, which (as the first ones did) did strike from France for their first flight (not just a ferry flight, then). The pic shows a crew of two, meaning the 1/91 is likely to be involved.

[Lonewolf_50]

Courtney, the French political RoE restrictions in Afghanistan, back when I was involved on the operational side, made some of their missions virtually worthless. The folks in uniform were very frustrated by that state of affairs, but they did indeed adhere to their national guidance.

I can appreciate how the French feel, with the shoe now being on their foot, when their operational helpers can't or won't play with "the full deck" once the op has started.

I won't get all humorous and indluge in schadenfreude: quite frankly, any internal friction we "the good guys" run into just makes it easier on the Jihidi twerps upon whom we are trying to deliver ordnance.

Gall me that such makes the enemy's job easier. :mad:

[Courtney Mil]

I understand what you say, Lonewolf. My experience whilst at CENTCOM would support that. I think the French were still recovering from their fall out with the USA at the time, but they were so keen to be in the thick of it - in all respects.

In a way, that's what I was saying, though. Like all of us, we tend to be less constrained when we go it alone than when we're in a multinational effort. The difference I see at the moment is that the French do seem quite willing to step up and get on with it. I'm thinking their front-seat role in Libya and now in Mali.

cuefaye, not sure if your were asking me or what examples you mean. If I have guessed correctly, the above, in military terms I was thingking of the Françafrique; their excellent work on the ground (in particular) in Bosnia, a number of nasty ops in AFG, Côte d'Ivoire, Chad, Somalia, Djibouti. Just examples. Oh, and (head above the parapet) their latter nuclear tests in the Pacific - as an example of ignoring World opinion and putting their interests first. That's what I was talking about.

Kevlar at the ready!

[cuefaye]

Thank you.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

A reharsal after Kolwezi 1978?

La légion saute sur Tombouctou - 2013.
In flight images courtesy of a (rare) French drone Harfang.

La Légion saute sur Tombouctou, Opération Serval 28 Janvier 2013 - YouTube

[JimNtexas]

The United States is providing tankers to support the French Air Force (http://news.yahoo.com/us-support-french-mali-aerial-refueling-021029750.html).

They were too scared of terrorists to let us overfly France for Eldorado Canyon, but now that the shoe is on the other foot we in the United States are Mr. Nice Guy once again. :ugh:

PS: We're kicking people out of our Air Force because we can't afford to pay them. Who is paying the costs of these tankers?

[wiggy]

They were too scared of terrorists to let us overfly France for Eldorado Canyon,

I somehow doubt being scared was the reason - knowing the French they simply decided it simply wasn't in their interests.

As Courtney rightly said: "the French don't mess about and certainly do a good job of resisting external influence when it comes to acheiving their objectives"

[TBM-Legend]

Beau Geste is back...:ok:

[keesje]

They were too scared of terrorists to let us overfly France for Eldorado Canyon

Lybia is much closer to France then to the US. See it as the french bombing Mexico from Canada. Maybe they thought long term interests would be hurt. That proved to be truth after 9-11 when Ghadaffi proved helpfull in tracking down AQ terrorist in the middle east, making him good guy.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2011/10/obama-gaddafi-handshake-091709-lg.jpg

That was before he became the bad guy again...

[LT Selfridge]

The True Reason for the Mali Incursion (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-28/here-come-drones-or-true-reason-mali-incursion)

[JimNtexas]

Lybia is much closer to France then to the US. See it as the french bombing Mexico from Canada. Maybe they thought long term interests would be hurt. That proved to be truth after 9-11 when Ghadaffi proved helpfull in tracking down AQ terrorist in the middle east, making him good guy.

Amazingly, Ghadaffi became extremely well behaved the day after a GBU flew into his bedroom window. In 1986.

And the French had nothing to do that that.

[West Coast]

French got the message that night as well. A GBU delivered to its embassey in return to having to hit the tanker many more times than should have been required.

[lj101]

Jim

Interesting view point here;

The French Connection | Center for a New American Security (http://www.cnas.org/node/9955)

Politics eh!

[500N]

"French got the message that night as well. A GBU delivered to its embassey in return to having to hit the tanker many more times than should have been required."

+ 1 :ok:

[keesje]

Gadaffi, nope if it only was that simple. Gaddafi and the west both hated Al Qaeda and were fighting silently together.

CIA delivered Gaddafi Libyan rebels for 'torture' and waterboarding was 'more widespread than agency will admit' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2199246/CIA-delivered-Gaddafi-Libyan-rebels-torture-waterboarding-widespread-agency-admit.html)

Al Qaeda backs Libyan protesters and condemns Gaddafi | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/24/us-libya-alqaeda-idUSTRE71N12B20110224)

Confusing this realities, supporting bad guys, makes you wonder who is on the right side.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451586c69e2014e8b3fee6b970d-800wi

Anyway the US public seems to be a bit confused now about the french taking aggressive successful action, twice. That not how its supposed to be?! ;)

[Heathrow Harry]

Funnily enough Saddam was the same - if there was going to be any dictators in his country it sure as hell wasn't going to be AQ

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Anyway the US public seems to be a bit confused now about the french taking aggressive successful action, twice. That not how its supposed to be?! ;)
Misinterpreting independence for cowardice (or pretending to), then being proven wrong; and again.
I sympathize, it must be difficult.:E

Courtney & wiggy got it right IMFO (In My French Opinion). ;)

[keesje]

It seems the french air landed at Kidal, well ahead of the front line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zo20ZD_6yLQ#!

Gunsights
Serval operation - January 2013: airstrikes - YouTube

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

An overview of the modernized Atlantique (ATL2) ops.
With a bit of a Sentinel on the apron, too.

Opération Serval - février 2013 : Mission du détachement ATL2 stationné à Dakar - YouTube

[DADDY-OH!]

I believe the Spaniards could also have helped out with airspace/overflight access because in my mind, the bombing of a night club used by US service personnel on (West) German soil could constitute an attack on NATO. Therefore ALL NATO members should pull together & unify. IIRC, the Eldorado Canyon formations had to route way out over the Eastern Atlantic, past Portugal through the Straights of Gib' & onward.

I know Le Frogs would only decide at the time, if they were 'in' or 'out' in the event of a WarPac onslaught as they would only join in if (West) Germany was directly attacked.

In the end it was the same old union taking a much needed stand in the free world's interest while the weak willed European mainlanders were rooted in their ambivalence, apathy & appeasement.

Who would have thought that 30 years after being denied overflight clearance, those same tankers would be bailing out the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys?

[Heathrow Harry]

I heard the US initially asked for cash to provide a C-17

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Yup. Initially. For transport and/or tanker capabilities.

Just a little political message, due to France early departure from A-stan, I think.
Was sorted out when French President called US President on the phone. ;)

[Lonewolf_50]

AZR, I suspect that you hit that nail on the head. ;)

[BEagle]

Good to see that the reliable, efficient A310MRTT has been in action in support of FAF aircraft in OP SERVAL:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/RafaleAAR_zpse29430e0.jpg

From Federal Government | Large majority in the German Bundestag approves the Mali mandate (http://www.bundesregierung.de/Content/EN/Artikel/2013/02/2013-02-28-mali-mandate.html) :

Tanker aircraft for French forces

Another part of the mandate relates to aerial refuelling support for French aircraft. The Bundeswehr has a twin-engine tanker aircraft. The Airbus A310 can carry 60 tonnes of fuel*. This allows it to support international operations around the globe.

German troops are to operate the transport and tanker aircraft from an airbase in Dakar, in neighbouring Senegal.



Tankflugzeuge für französische Streitkräfte

Ein weiterer Aspekt dieses Mandats ist die Hilfe für französische Flugzeuge durch Luftbetankung. Die Bundeswehr verfügt über ein zweistrahliges Tankflugzeug. Der Airbus A310 hat eine Kraftstoffkapazität von 60 Tonnen. Damit können weltweit internationale Operationen mit Tankern unterstützt werden.

Die deutschen Soldaten sollen vom Lufttransportstützpunkt in Dakar/Senegal den fliegerischen Einsatz mit den Transport- und Tankflugzeugen durchführen


(*Actually it has a 72 T capacity)

[Courtney Mil]

You know, the more I see and read about that aircraft (the little one, I mean) the more I'm impressed. Although I'm liking the idea of the big one too.

[Petit-Lion]

Just received the link to the complete video from the SIRPA (Service d'information et de relations publiques des armées)
Harfang sequence at 3:25, followed at 3:57 by nice close-ups of a Rafale being prepared for ground strikes. Beautiful, even heavily loaded.
La légion saute sur Tombouctou version longue, entre Gao & Tombouctou, 28 Janvier 2013 - YouTube