Just get yourself up there and do it....

[CAEBr]

Are snow clearing duties getting more onerous? Brize Norton seem to have thrown in a free bungee trial as a sweetener..... :rolleyes:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/14/article-2261619-16F10E09000005DC-596_634x357.jpg

btw, anyone know what the small doors at the top of the fin are, is that where they store the broom?

CAEBr

[CoffmanStarter]

Time to get the old kit out :}

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/imagecopy2_zps511d3a6e.jpeg

Not the usual MRD rig ... but looks like fun !

[KiloB]

Wonder how fast it can go in reverse?
KB

[Courtney Mil]

anyone know what the small doors at the top of the fin are

I don't, but I can have a guess. I would probably want the tailplane locked before standing on it, so my thought is that they are access doors to lock or isolate the hydraulic actuators.

[CoffmanStarter]

Or how about this for Front Line snow clearing operations :}

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/imagecopy3_zps2ca65edf.jpeg

Ear Defenders for the turret crew ... I should coco !!!

(actually an experiment in the use of a jet engine for combat mine clearing :eek:)

Coff.

[Just This Once...]

btw, anyone know what the small doors at the top of the fin are, is that where they store the broom?

Stairs from bottom to top of fin then horizontal crawl space with 2 hatches on top that are unlocked and opened from inside.

Or so I was told.

[Courtney Mil]

A secret passage then.

[Just This Once...]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/14/article-2261619-16F10E09000005DC-596_634x357.jpg

[ORAC]

From elsewhere ref C-5 tail:

"We also had a Loran coupler in the T-Tail of the C-5. There was a access hatch to the tail and ladder that we climbed up the inside of the tail to another hatch and access at the top of the tail. We put on a safety harness and actually climbed out on top of the tail to change the coupler. I climbed the tail several times but only helped change a coupler once and that was one time too many."

[cuefaye]

A secret passage then.


Or a fairy tale

[glad rag]

No lone working then......:hmm:

[CoffmanStarter]

ORAC ... must have been fun in-flight :E

[MReyn24050]

As CoffmanStarter says:-

Time to get the old kit out

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/VampireSnowclearance_zpsa16b926f.jpg

[ORAC]

ORAC ... must have been fun in-flight :E "H for Hancock Calling"

OUS9htHp580

[MReyn24050]

Stairs from bottom to top of fin then horizontal crawl space with 2 hatches on top that are unlocked and opened from inside. Or so I was told.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/C17-2Fin_zps48236e29.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

ORAC ... "Don't panic man this the RAF" ... Brilliant ! :D:D:D:D

[CoffmanStarter]

MReyn24050 ... there I was thinking we've re-introduced Tail Gunners :ok:

[melmothtw]

When faced with the same problem, the USAF just went with a cherry picker instead (and yes, it did reach to the top of the tail).

http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u613/Melmothtw/C-17snow_zpsc6d59826.jpg

[Courtney Mil]

Just do what I do with my car. Drive really fast and it all blows off. Simples.

[CoffmanStarter]

So that's IF for the first 20 yards then Courtney :E

[force_ale]

Surely with the importance of C-17 Op's Brize would have brought some modern equipment to reach the tail by now.

[NutLoose]

So I take it they don't have the likes of a search that we had with the Tens to reach the top. Beggars the question if he slips off how do they get him down?

[spekesoftly]

would have brought some modern equipment

The brush looks quite new ....

[Courtney Mil]

So that's IF for the first 20 yards then Courtney

Yeah, true. But it works. As long as it's all gone by the time I reach the first junction. As for aircraft it clearly only works if you can taxi with the canopy open. Fine once you're rolling down the runway, throttles open wide!

[LowObservable]

I have a fear of heights (actually, a quite rational concern about the adverse effects of sudden deceleration on ground impact) and that makes my palms sweat. I hope he's got wooly socks on over his shoes - the only way to get anywhere on glare ice.

[CoffmanStarter]

Seriously though ... and I'm not a card carrying HSE type ... but isn't this an unsafe working practice. God forbid the chap should fall ... but if he did ... surley some difficult questions would be asked of his supervising NCO and the EngO ? Especially if a comparison were made at the subsequent BoE with USAF practice. I appreciate some kind of restraint harness is being used but it looks a little Heath Ribinson.

[500N]

I think he is wearing a chest harness, similar to a climbing harness
but the attachment point is on the back, you just can't see it round his body.
He'd still fall a few feet though.

[NutLoose]

I read somewhere that although they save your life the sudden arresting of your fall can cause other injuries...

Low observerable, never heard of that one, but I can tell you working on a VC10 in the winter with deicing fluid over the engines and fuselage over gloss paint was lethal. We had harnesses, but they lived in stores as the top of a Tens engines had nowhere to attach them, I was scared of heights and it took ages to get used to working up top, sliding down over the side of the cowling and onto the safety raiser took some getting used to, we had one guy go out to replace a upper beacon in mid winter with snow on the ground at about minus 5 plus wind, he came back in his light blue shirt covered in oil, the search engine stopped when he was at the top of the fin at about 2am, without any way to let people know he was trapped and with just a shirt on and in danger of hypothermia, he shinned the 75 odd foot down the search arm.... :eek:

[500N]

"I read somewhere that although they save your life the sudden arresting of your fall can cause other injuries..."

Especially if you have your "tackle" in the wrong place :O

Yes, even hanging by them causes pressure !

[Out Of Trim]

Just do what I do with my car. Drive really fast and it all blows off. Simples.


I once watched a VC-10 from 10 SQN Try that technique at Brize.. During the take-off roll snow & ice were blown off the trailing edge of the starboard wing straight into one of the starboard Conways at full chat which then exploded lots of molten metal and flames from the jet pipe. Oops"

:rolleyes:

[OmegaV6]

Using a de-icing rig with its heated fluid and chemicals on dry, loose snow is a very expensive and inefficient method of snow clearance ..

Looks like someone is watching the pennies and having the loose stuff brushed off efficiently, before the de-icing or anti-icing fluids (and they are markedly different) are applied.

Less pollution and less money wasted ... so why not ???

[MAINJAFAD]

"I read somewhere that although they save your life the sudden arresting of your fall can cause other injuries..."

Especially if you have your "tackle" in the wrong place http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif

Yes, even hanging by them causes pressure !

All true (in fact, the shock of an arrested fall, followed by extended suspension can kill due loss of oxygen to the brain if you faint due to restricted bloodflow after falling. The other thing that can happen is that you may suffer reflow syndrome which is caused by a loss of circulation causing a build up of toxins in the blood which could cause vital organs to shut down after rescue, even if you where suspended for a quite short period (say more than 10 minutes). Hence the requirement for specialist equipment with trained rescue personnel if you're doing this kind of task).

[Onceapilot]

Still looks iffy. What if he drops the broom on someones head?:ooh:

OAP

[MAINJAFAD]

Basic SOP, nobody walks about in that area....

...unless they are wearing a


http://www.tooled-up.com/ShowImage.ashx?Type=3&File=SE2217YELLOW.jpg&Man=MIS&Size=460

[N2erk]

Oh my - a lot of 'photo-caption contest' piccies were compromised in this thread!

[MAINJAFAD]

Seriously though ... and I'm not a card carrying HSE type ... but isn't this an unsafe working practice. God forbid the chap should fall ... but if he did ... surely some difficult questions would be asked of his supervising NCO and the EngO ? Especially if a comparison were made at the subsequent BoE with USAF practice. I appreciate some kind of restraint harness is being used but it looks a little Heath Robinson.

CS

The regulations are on the internet. What he is doing is covered by JSP 375 Volume 2 Leaflet 7, As long as all of the boxes are ticked as regards his training, serviceability of climbing equipment, medical fitness and rapid rescue capability if there is an arrested fall (plus a risk assessment, a safe system of work and method statement from hell which he is totally briefed on), it's totally legal as regards UK HSW law.

[OmegaV6]

The regulations are on the internet. What he is doing is covered by JSP 375 Volume 2 Leaflet 7, As long as all of the boxes are ticked as regards his training, serviceability of climbing equipment, medical fitness and rapid rescue capability if there is an arrested fall (plus a risk assessment, a safe system of work and method statement from hell which he is totally briefed on), it's totally legal as regards UK HSW law.

Is that it ?? ... WOW ..

(On the Herc we would draw straws to see who had to climb out of the escape hatch and start sweeping ... and who calls the police to arrest that faller ?? :) :) :) )

[Mickj3]

"Seriously though, and I'm not a card carrying HSE type, but isn't this an unsafe working practice. God forbid the chap should fall, but if he did, surely some difficult questions would be asked of his supervising NCO and the EngO ? Especially if a comparison were made at the subsequent BoE with USAF practice. I appreciate some kind of restraint harness is being used but it looks a little Heath Robinson".

MAINJAFAD is absolutely right, considering that in addition to Brize being the MOB for the C17 there are a number of high wing/tail plane/surface aircraft whose home is Brize, not to count the variety of visiting aircraft. If this is the best that Brize can do the coroner/ BOI might be asking some serious questions regarding practice and procedures across the AT fleet. The defence that it rarely snows at Brize is no defence. I seem to remember a picture in the RAF news shortly after the introduction of the C17 showing a similar scenario in Norway.

It is difficult, from the picture, to determine if the individual is wearing a fall restraint or a fall arrest device however both devices would seem inappropriate in this particular case.

a. Fall restraint. The anchor point for the rope/strop connecting the individual to the horizontal surface appears to be about half way between the tip and the centre of the tailplane, this will prevent him falling off the tip but not over the sides (fore & aft). A fall will result in a pendulum effect resulting in the individual colliding with the vertical component of the tailplane and possibly sustaining injury. By definition a shock absorbing device (to lessen the effects of sudden arrest) is not incorporated in fall restraint devices.

b. Fall Arrest. Same as the above with the possible addition of a shock absorbing device. The end result would be the same.

It beggars belief that in 2013 the Service have still not got their heads around the working at height regulations particularly with regard to aircraft operations.

[OmegaV6]

WOW ... all that knowledge/proof/expertise from one grainy photo .... amazing !!!

[melmothtw]

WOW ... all that knowledge/proof/expertise from one grainy photo .... amazing !!!


I would suggest the knowledge and expertise comes from years of experience Omega, and as for the proof - the image really isn't that grainy.

[GLuis103]

Wonder how fast it can go in reverse?
KB


LOL I would really like to see that :E

[CoffmanStarter]

Sorry to have stirred up a hornets nest on this one chaps ... and sure ... you can't make out all the detail on a grainy pic ... but equally ... simply relying on a HSE "tick" list doesn't substitute for a good common sense appraisal in my book. IMHO there is machinery specifically designed to work at such heights, as can be seen with the USAF example, where a broom/sweeper could still be used more safely before dousing with de-icing chems.

As we rent the C-17 from the Americans ... presumably appropriate ground support equipment would have been part of the package including said Height Platform ... and it's complete bolleaux if someone pushes the "we can't afford it" argument :mad:

I was taught that I had a "duty of care" to the people I had the privilege to lead ... which is still ingrained :ok:

BTW Mick3 ... it was me who started with "Seriously though ..." not MAINJAFAD

Coff.

[Mickj3]

Coff, apologies for crediting the wrong poster. I agree with all of your comments and add the following:-

I believe a different IPT organisation is responsible for airfield vehicles than for the actual platforms. This was certainly the case a few years ago (I was active and quite involved in height issues) when there were some problems with working at height issues regarding access to the top of fuel bowsers.

As far as ticks in the box are concerned the one box that I don't believe can be ticked here is the safe system of work box.

[Roadster280]

C17s were bought, so no longer leased.

"Rarely snows at Brize"? Well it did when I was posted there. Every winter. Not at all unusual for Oxon to be blanketed in the white stuff.

Do C17s fit in any of the sheds at BZZ?

[West Coast]

We tend to look at the high tech as the answer to everything when some times the low tech works the best. Go through a type 1/ type 4 deice at KORD with those contract knuckleheads and I would feel a lot better with a crew member, a broom and a couple of cheap bottles vodka.

[VinRouge]

The same questions could be asked about why we are still loading c17 with atlas instead of k loaders, but that's a different argument for a different day!

[NutLoose]

Yep that's what I heard about falling injuries in a harness and it does comes back to if you have access equipment to get up there to recover him, why not use it to do the job in the first place, I could understand it down route, but at home base?

"Rarely snows at Brize"? Well it did when I was posted there. Every winter. Not at all unusual for Oxon to be blanketed in the white stuff.

It certainly does, we lost a Hoover off the back of a 4 tonner and never found it until the thaw. :}

BTW we had a suggestion come through from a Flt Lt Air Eng that pink dye was added to the deicing fluid so we could see we had the required coating on a white VC10 :D:ugh:

Once the pax were onboard they would close the Ten door and I or whoever was deicing would cover the front fuse with fluid ( saved it dripping on the pax when entering the aircraft ) was given the last pax was onboard message so I let rip, however some General decided he would board separately after the SLF... He was at about the top of the stairs when it hit him from over the fuselage, was not a happy chappy, a soggy sticky chappy yes and totally ice free, but definitely not a happy chappy :E

[CoffmanStarter]

Maybe he just liked a pink aircraft Nutty :p

[MAINJAFAD]

The ideal method of doing this is by using a Cherry Picker like the USAF, I have no argument with that as it meets the requirement of removing the risk of falling completely and all flying station's should have a sizable pool of them with the budget to maintain them (it would make my life so much easier as I have been involved in WaH for 21 years and the only place I ever work where WaH tasks were painless was were the IPT removed all climbing facility's, purchased a cherry picker and provided a full life maintenance contract). The downside is that they are expensive, somewhat unreliable and in some cases unusable for a task as there is no safe method of work that allows you to leave the platform if the structure you are working on does not allow access.

A question for the EngO's out there, is WaH covered in any depth in stage 1 training, The reason I ask that is on a few occasions I've had JEngO's who have been totally clueless on the subject.

Nutlose

The rescue equipment basically is a rope (in a bag) and a trained rescuer and all they have to do is get the faller to a position where he is no longer suspended. The picture doesn't tell the full story as there should be two people up there with one of them rescue trained (not the guy with the brush). Should the guy with the brush fall, the rescuer attaches the rope to the aircraft at the same point that the faller is attached to, throws the bag out so it doesn't hit victim which will result in the rope hanging beside the faller. The rescuer then abseils down, connects the faller to his harness, releases the faller from his fall arrester and lowers him to the ground. There should be a person in charge at ground level who is also the rescue co-ordinator (in this case with a management radio) who will activate any medical response. The other option is they may have some form of device available that can be rapidly moved to the height that the faller to get him down (like the cherry picker that 99 Sqn does have for de icing aircraft (pity it isn't a lot bigger!!!)).

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/5705/s300_Brize2g.jpg

[NutLoose]

Three words sum that rescue plan up...

What a Farce...

As the guy is attached to two points if he falls is he going to hang conveniently below one attachment or midway? I wonder if a safety man can get out to him drop a rope climb down and release him in under 5 minutes? Has anyone timed it / tried it?

eLCOSH : Will Your Safety Harness Kill You? (http://www.elcosh.org/document/1662/d000568/Will%2BYour%2BSafety%2BHarness%2BKill%2BYou%253F.html?show_t ext=1)

Spend Billions on the Aircraft but skimp on support equipment, what does it take, someone's death before they buy the right equipment to do the job?

[500N]

Nutloose,

I'd go back further.

How long does it take for someone to rig up, climb up, do the job
versus getting a cherry picker to the location and do it from that ?

Surely supposed savings are gone in time etc etc.

[ricardian]

Snow clearance on railway in Bratislava.

http://www.railtrains.sk/uploads/img50f999d833a17.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

That's got to cut commuting time :E

[parabellum]

his supervising NCO


I suspect he IS the supervising NCO, the lads would have declined his kind invitation!:)

[CoffmanStarter]

Blow the paint off ... :eek:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/SnqBHLUKttI/AAAAAAABEFQ/nkEOOVx1q0s/s640/56i7jreyjrtfhdfsd.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

And just in case your Local Authority runs out of Road Salt ... :eek:

http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/images/jethonda1.jpg