samedan briefing: a joke!!

[baobab72]

I i failed twice in a row the Samedan self briefing test on the airport website and now i have to wait for 24 hrs before another attempt!
what a freaking joke!! they make you go through those slides during the briefing and half of the questions they ask are not included in the briefing, there is a freaking ridiculous turnign radious chart that shows you the required radious to complete the turn that is just a joke to read, names of small villages! Who Freaking cares about the name of a village 3 miles on final from runway 3 - i still dont know the correct answer!! and it is absolutely a JOKE and idiotic to ask questions without providing you with the tools to figure out the answer!!!!
What are the dimensions of the FIZ: can someone of the geniouses that wrote the exam where it shown on those slides?? :D :=

Good job samedan guys!!!!

You make me laugh and what pisses me off is that if you dont pass the test you can not go there!!!
safety is always the main concern but those questions are totally unrelated to reality!! they must have been written bzy some lawyer with a passion for aviation!!!!

:=

[baobab72]

really?
good answer my friend, good answer!

[CL300]

Airport authorities are doing what they can to try to "firewall" creative trajectories into an airport.
The fact that you failed twice , should have trigger the bell, and using two computers is indeed the way to go.
At Cannes, we tried to implement a briefing , without a test, not because we could not do it, but just because it would be too binding in terms of responsibilities. Therefore our briefing is just what it is, a briefing, to date , on ly a handful of operator have been warned for non compliance, and a couple will be fined for hazardous operation, and violation of rules of air. ( Not for not following the briefing)
However, time is difficult for airport, a lot of pressure from everywhere in order to limit the activity, and numerous trade-offs have to be acted upon. ( cf Farnborough recent ban of Hawker 400).

The bare minimum respect for the people creating these briefings in order to keep their airport alive is certainly required and desirable.

I do always welcome criticism and new ideas, but you can trust me on this : every word is analysed, weighted, and other things that i cannot describe here :mad:

Be professional , do your homework, and come to Engadin, Cannes, LCY with the same pride as you walk through the terminal with your uniform, along with your ego friend..

[apruneuk]

Sadly, the exam, well-meaning as it may be, fails to address the real causes of the two most recent tragic accidents at Samedan - poor planning, poor situational awareness, poor decision making, poor Captaincy, poor corporate oversight and poor attitude. The Authority have certainly addressed some issues with their test but there's still a big fat elephant in the room.

[INNflight]

The Authority have certainly addressed some issues with their test but there's still a big fat elephant in the room.

What do you think the authority should do about the cowboys and poor planners?
The only option to keep them away / safe them from themselves is closing the airport really, and no one would like that.

I keep saying I'd rather be unemployed then dead, and any owner or pax who would rather have a crew try to get into a VFR airport in IFR conditions than divert to Zurich is... well... you know. :mad:

[His dudeness]

nd any owner or pax who would rather have a crew try to get into a VFR airport in IFR conditions than divert to Zurich is... well... you know.

Thinking back to the Falcon 100 it was rather the PIC than the owner who pressed on....

In reality the test are just arse covering. Its a bloody wonder that not all airports in the EU are special training required airports.

Make crystal clear, easy to understand, easy to follow regulations, deregulate as much as possible and punish hard those who do not follow the rules.

Combine that with a better approach on training, make aircrew less liable to the will of employers (lifetime lasting licence, forbid PTF, make payed TR mandatory) and voila, there will be less accidents.

What we witness for the last few years is the opposite.

[fjordviking]

Baobab72 you have PM.

[baobab72]

cldvr
i truly hope i will never ever have to share a cockpit with you, some person who assumes that the only purpose of my post was to seek the right answers! I just dont understand the reason why i should take a test that it is not tailored to probe my knowledge of the area but to score 80% over questions about density altitude and radious of turn, within a 30 minute time!!! It reeks of lawyers miles away!!

and the way you adress your collegues, it says alot about what kind of person you are!!!
so please spare me your lousy comments in the future!!! and as far as sharing the airspace goes, well i dont think you own it!!!

for the rest of you, thanks for sharing your comment, i could have done as suggested by some of you, keep the page open while taking the test, but i am not used to cheat cos when i first took it i thought that it was safety oriented but i guess i was wrong! it does trick you!

[Kak Klaxon]

I failed this test a few times, I also failed the Lugano test. It's just weird making you do the course on line then check your knowledge by asking you questions not in the course.

[redsnail]

Just have multiple windows open with the various docs ready to roll. I had to use Firefox for the Samedan one. (I couldn't get it to work on Safari).
After a while you get the knack. :ok:

[Delta12]

I can only agree with the topic starter !

That briefing/test is a joke !

Failed it as well, managed to pass with the second attempt. If you pass or fail got nothing to do with you are a good/bad pilot !

Yes, under qualified wild west pilots did go there !

And Yes, under qualified wild west pilots will go there after passing this dumb brief/test !

To sum it up: Its a Joke !

[deefer dog]

Test is a hoop that you need to jump through, exactly the same as the EASA ATPL exams.....they teach and test you skills that satisfy the lawyers...that is the purpose....it has nought to do with aviation.

For Samedan, if you don't have the gumption to open the web based training aids AND the test on the same computer you really don't have the skill set to be a pilot. Next you will be complaining about the EASA exams, and their irrelevance! Get a life you muppet, and stop complaining. Please don't fly into Samedan.

[4HolerPoler]

If you can't pass the test you shouldn't be going there, as frustrating as it may seem.

Not mentioned in the brief but please also bear in mind that unless you've been in there in the last two years you may not unless it is CAVOK. The alternative is to have a 'safety pilot' on board who is familiar with the field.

[Joe le Taxi]

I think some of you are being a little hard on the OP. Many of the questions have a very questionable relevance to the job at hand, absorbing time I could more usefully employ in preparation. Infact, when I first went there, the trip was dumped on me the night before, so I was up late doing it. It would have been much better to have spent an extra 1/2 hour in the morning reading the briefs and pulling out local maps.

[CL300]

This is the whole issue of these briefings. Too early or too late completion and they are not efficient. There is no 100% bulletproof tactics to implement them, if , like we do in GA/corporate/air taxi, we go to the place twice a year at max...

[avionimc]

Question 4 (difficult one) - What flight rules are applicable for LSZS?
Only maybe, the Falcon 100 pilot would have answered IFR. But then:
http://www.baaa-acro.com/Photos-55/VP-BAF-1.jpg

http://www.baaa-acro.com/Photos-62/VP-BAF.jpg

Baoab: better stay in warmer climes and in the shade !

[Richard Westnot]

I have never been into Samedan or taken the test, but the approach certainly looks interesting.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=lszs%20pprune&source=video&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjfExXZvovxE&ei=XDj1UNXwGumd0QWIxIDQBQ&usg=AFQjCNE6HuFVwQCGaMynjkpt46FmviZX-Q


This one may help with the test. Good luck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H65pvgoyOKc

[Scroll Lock]

I would advocate NOT to follow what is shown in the above video !
Bank angle in excess of 45, GPWS alerts most of the way down f.app 21.
All looks very John Wayne to me.

I lost utter confidence from the very start, when it was apparent the PIC failed to bother to follow the taxi line, and then meandered forward waiting for his T/Off clearance. Wouldn't cut the mustard with my employers. !!

Not following valley on M.App.

Incorrect config on both approaches, and further GPWS calls on rwy 03 app as a result.

Incorrect position on final 03, more GPWS.

4 shiny whites below 500' ( massively unstable ), then the dirty dive with the inevitable "sink rate" call.

My company have strict minima and procedures for Samedan, including online testing and thorough simulator training.

The test is there for a reason, and 4HP is correct> If you cant pass it, you probably shouldnt be trying to go there in the first place !!

Quite frankly I am shocked, and feel sure Engadin would be too if they were to see it !!

[Bucket]

This brief and test, and others like it are there to inform and check understanding. It may not be perfect however it behoves us all to embrace the spirit of what the airport authorities are trying to achieve.

I endeavour to do the brief and test on a quarterly basis and I have yet to visit Samedan.

If crew have issues with the test they should be a part of the solution and suggest improvements to the airport authorities not slag it off for a valid attempt to engage flight crew in the safety process.

And anyway, failing a test just means a review and more learning. Is that really such a chore?

:ok:

[deefer dog]

Landing a 727 at St Moritz Airport 1 - YouTube

727 into Samedan...avec GPWS and "where's the field!"

[ed1016nw]

:confused:Have any of you muppets been into Aspen? No test but a requirement of local knowledge.

[CL300]

there is a LLZ in aspen no ?

[avionimc]

Aspen - No test but a requirement of local knowledge.
Landed at KASE many times, both IFR and VFR. Great airport! The nice thing is that there are three charted instrument approach procedures (RNAV, LOC/DME, VOR/DME as well as a the Roaring Fork Visual). Though, there have been accidents there too, a memorable one was the GIII N303GA colliding with terrain while on short final in 2001, killing all 18 onboard.

Back to LSZS, wish they would implement one or two RNAV(GPS) approaches. By the way, there is no navaid or DME at LSZS. Reason why a pilot needs to know, and be able to recognize some [4] villages (call them waypoints) at 6 and 3 NM from the runway, and not land like the B727 in the above video.

[No RYR for me]

re the 727 approach: the only time I did an approach like that was at Baghdad..... Mad and no margins... In Baghdad you could always fly out over the bandit area if anything went wrong...:E Wonder where they could fly the 72 if anything went wrong :ugh:

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Scroll Lock: where is there a Samadan Simulator set up...and which type.

Having landed and also departed from there many times in the past....but not in last 5 years, does this satisfy any of their training boxes....

[CL300]

Samedan , AFAIK , is set up at FSI, on all types...

[733driver]

Have to agree with the OP here that the Samedan briefing/test is one of the worst I ahve seen anywhere. They really missed an opportunitiy to produce a relevant briefing rather than a box ticking exercise in my opinion. I have only been there once many years ago and had a company brief at the time which basically said to fly overhead and spot the field while still IFR, then cancel IFR, follow the valley to a lake where you turn around and decend into the valley. Stay on the right side of the valley and watch out for gliders etc. It also mentioned escape routes in case of G/A, lengie failures etc. That was straightforward and worked well. I have since done the briefing and test but haven't been back. Really didn't like the brief.

Cannes on the other hand has a relevant short brief that tells you how they want you to fly the approach and to minimise reverse and to vacate at the end and that's pretty much it. No box-ticking test at the end either.

[tommoutrie]

briefings need to be brief so that thickie pilots can remember the important bits. This briefing was brought in after the falcon and premier 1 crash as a way to show that the airport had done its best to inform pilots without going down the commercially ruinous route of forcing pilots to do some sort of mountain rating to fly in there.

The briefing for Samedan is about knowing when to say "nope" and go somewhere else. My issue with the briefing is it gives all (and demands knowlege of) all the ground features that you could use to feature crawl your way in when conditions are marginal. I don't know about anyone else but I find Samedan at MSA and I don't use witchcraft - I use the FMS. Then I have a good look at whether the approach and escape are clear enough to be VMC for the whole lot. Don't hit the rocks, don't hit the gliders, fly at a speed that gives you a sensible turn radius and know how to turn in a valley, have a good understanding of valley winds, first time you go there go with someone who's been there. Isn't that what we do at Bolzano, Lugano, La Mole etc?

Pilots generally crash aeroplanes at Samedan when the weather is bad and they have made a poor decision with regard to diverting. I do the briefing with two computers as do most of the other pilots I know but I do read the whole thing. For the original poster, as Yoda says, pass the briefing you will or the foca be with you..

[theWings]

I find Samedan at MSA and I don't use witchcraft - I use the FMS.

Wise words :ok: And don't NetJets do similar with a whole bunch of Lat/Long defined waypoints? If so how do they validate said waypoints? By company maintained custom database in the FMS, or crew cross-check?

Interestingly, however, the usual look-see at MSA won't work for RWY 03 arrivals this week due to the world economic thingy at Davos - the temp procedures do use Lat/Long waypoints though!!

Google AIRAC AIP SUP: 001/2013 and see Engadin's summary (http://www.engadin-airport.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/Briefing_WEF_2013_IFR.pdf)

[Steak&Kidney_Pie]

I found the Swiss published GAFOR routes as great help :ok:

[West Coast]

CL 300

Yup, there's a LOC alright. Not many LOC approaches I know of have you descending at 2500 or more FPM inside the FAF while dodging departures and getting your teeth rattled due to a SW wind and low pressure.

This being the LOC DME 15, not the public LOC approach

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Since my previous post I have been thru recurrent in FSI SAV.

I was able to do a SVS Flight at Samadan.

First T/O 03, with a low level, 8,000 ft down the valley, a 20 Fl turn back to airport, with a low level missed approach 500agl, continue to IF, then back after another 20Fl turn, touch down, with touch and go.
Back for same with EOP.... landed on 21 with no problems.
The SVS was perfect for this exercice, as well as the external visuals.

Then last week I looked at the briefing, and flunked the first time test, (55%) as I ran out of time, trying to find the names of the waypoint villages.......
Second attempt, (different questions mostly), 85%.....

Is my sim ride acceptable in place of the local mans monitored ride.??????

Glf