My folks vs Me - need your advice!

[Ross_ervo]

Hi all,

I am not sure if this has come up on the forums recently but I havent been able to draw from previous threads on advice for young people like me.

I am in a bit of a conflict with my parents with regards to my future goals and dreams of becoming a pilot. This has been dragged on for a while within my household but I stood my ground (not like a stubborn kid :O) and kept my parents involved by telling them about the pathways and other things I used to research about becoming a pilot. I recently graduated as an aeronutical engineer with honours and my parents insist on me getting an engineering job or study further through masters in business etc.

The training and the income through GA or the huge investment for cadetships is looked upon as something not worth doing by my parents, after having done an engineering degree with a clear path set out (I do not wish to offend anyone, these are just the opinions of my parents). Which kind of means that I wont be getting a single dollar towards training up to becoming a pilot from my parents. I have always loved aircraft and it was the reason why I pursued aero engineering, but I had a quick change of focus in first year after excursions to flight schools through interest groups at uni. I have since then wanted to become a pilot and want to pursue it in the best way I can. After doing an engineering internship last year, I am even more confident that I want to depart from the engineering career and become a pilot!

I have made my mind up of taking a year off and trying for all the cadetships on offer. If I get picked up anywhere, that will be absolutely amazing, but if not Ill have to get an engineering job and move on after this year has passed. I understand there are people with a negative outlook on cadetships but please understand I have no way of undergoing training and then looking for a job in GA with the circumstances I am in at the moment. This year is the biggest window of opportunity for me to try and break through somehow. The only other option is going ahead with an engineering job and continously working/saving up towards becoming a pilot.

I would like to hear your thoughts on some of my questions -

1. What have been some of the finance options used by people who have had to pay upfront fees for training? Are there student loans or personal loans available to deal with the upfront costs of certain cadetships?

2. Is it possible to become an airline pilot after working in other industries for a while? When and how did people make the switch and is it only possible/realistic upto a certain age?

3. General thoughts on the two scenarios that I will most probably face in the near future:

Cadet airline pilot - A debt in excess of $100k (for some cadetships) with additional debt from undergrad degree. Food and board during the cadetship training etc. Plus any other debts and expenses from a car or a house mortgage etc. in the next few years. Seems like I might be spending a lot before I earn a modest amount. Even then I'd have repayments for the company loan, hecs debt and a seperate debt to cover upfront costs. But having a dream realised and a foot in the door and getting a start in the Australian airline industry!

Aero/Mech Engineer - No immediate debt except for the undergrad degree and car/house etc. Saving up for upfront costs for cadetships/other ways of becoming a pilot. No idea if or when Ill have enough funds/stability to switch careers?

Which one seems more plausible and sensible?:yuk:

I would really appreciate some words of advice from anyone who has been through a similar situation or has made the switch into the airlines (and had planned to do so for a while). If you just want to share your opinion please please go ahead! I will take every bit of advice/opnion if I have to re evaluate the whole plan.

[darkroomsource]

As far as I know, there aren't many cadetships where you don't have to pay for the training, and that means a SECURED loan (which would mean your parents signing for the debt), which I get from your post won't be happening.

The only cadetships I have heard of where you don't pay are in countries that you must be a citizen of (and in some a member of a certain minority or previously disadvantaged minority), such as Holland, Kenya, South Africa, Namibia.

Since the odds of actually getting a career in flying are slim at best, I would suggest you get a nice job doing what you're trained in and fly on the weekends. Flying will always be more fun when you don't "have to" fly.

[717tech]

A lot of people here (myself included) have started their career after working another job and saving up...
It isn't a bad thing to have a trade behind you, just in case a career as a pilot doesn't work out for any reason.

[Wally Mk2]

Have to agree with the last couple of posters,(having worked in another industry to get into aviation thru the back door) work at yr acquired skill & gain experience & money to make a better informed decision about becoming a plane driver over time.
In time you may actually change yr mind (fly for fun instead) & be grateful for the slight obstacle you face now. It's not the industry is once was being very unstable these days so use what you have which are two things, time(due being young) & yr current abilities, many would kill to be in yr position. & keep yr parents out of the equation to as they obviously don't have yr passion so don't get tainted by them.


Best of luck:-)

Wmk2

[Ultralights]

get an engineering job, and put every spare penny into training, once you get to CPL level, then look at instructing or heading out bush, might get a job both flying and in engineering at the same company.

[seneca208]

You wouldn't be the first person I've heard of that starts out as an engineer and moves into a multi-turbine f/o position at the same company if you went down that path.

[Capt Fathom]

Join the Airforce. In any capacity.

The aviation industry in Australia is truly stuffed, and not worth getting involved in.

Trust me I know. I've been there for 38 years! :{

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Agree with all posts above.

Stick to what you've been trained in.

[Rotaiva]

Mate, I studied and graduated as an Aero Engineer (RMIT) back in the late 80's early 90's. I am now a Captain with Emirates.

The road has been long, arduous and filled with many pivotal moments as I watched others drop out, deviate or simply give up with their flying.

The personal triumphs, and setbacks are too numerous to put down at this moment; - you will be no different.

I truly have a heap I could talk to you about but I'm off to the simulator in a couple of hours and no time to compose all my thoughts into a coherent discussion at this very moment.

I will attempt to pm you in the next day or two.

May I suggest you pm me your skype name and we can chat directly.

Regards

[Centaurus]

I suggest you try for the RAAF pilot course. The training is free and of a high standard. Of course you get paid while under training. Your current qualifications might get you ahead of the mob also applying to get in the RAAF

[Creampuff]

If you can't or don't make it on to a RAAF pilot course, work at the mines for a few years. The world looks different and you have more options when you have a hundred grand or more in the bank.

[Mach E Avelli]

At your age, time is on your side. Consolidate your existing qualifications by working in a relevant field while you use some of that income to learn to fly.
You may find that flying is a bit of a disappointment, or you may develop such a passion that you will eventually drop your engineering work to go bush and start the long road working your way up. You may acquire the assets to underpin the $100,000 you need for a cadetship.
Now, that's a subject all of its own and you can research the pros and cons of that particular path elsewhere in these forums.
I was fortunate to get a flying scholarship at age 18, otherwise I could never have afforded to learn to fly so early. But the downside was I never qualified to do anything else and at times have been forced to take crap jobs with crap operators in crap locations to recover from companies going broke under me.
In such a volatile industry as this, having dual and separate skills is an asset.

[Old Akro]

As an engineer who opted for an engineering career rather than flying, I think you could go down either route for some time and then switch. Others are better qualified to comment, but I think the more you move away from the " normal" pilot recruitment path the harder it is to revert back that will involve more steps with less well regarded operations. For me the decision was about work style / employer culture. I opted to be in a more flexible, autonomous, smaller, less structured work environment.

Tough decisions that require a lot of introspection. Good luck. You should also feel pleased that you wrote an unusually good post that showed intellect and insight, which is why you have had so many high quality responses.

[Howard Hughes]

Listen to your folks, when you get older you will realise they were probably right.

My suggestion is to make your fortune in the industry which provides the best income, then fly for fun!:ok:

[outnabout]

When I announced my intention of learning to fly for a career, my parents told me that it would lead to a life of financial insecurity, alcohol misuse, and moral decay.

I have to say, they were right :ok:

Seriously, I worked in other careers before learning to fly. In flying, as in life, I believe it is essential to have a Plan B.

[seneca208]

You've got a good backup plan. If your dream is to fly, go make it happen. Take heed of what experienced pilots on these forums mention and make sure you have a realistic understanding of what the industry might bring. At the end of the day, if you wakeup every morning wanting to fly, you should go and make that happen.

[QJB]

If I was you I'd be applying for the RAAF as a pilot, aiming for fast jets and setting my sights on test pilot flying as a long term career given my aeronautical engineering qualifications, but that's just me!

[Ross_ervo]

Thank you so much for all the responses, I am glad I decided to post this issue on here!

Due to your posts I am now aware of a few things that need to be given more thought like guarantors for loans, the RAAF, the assets I could accumulate through an engineering job (to put against a loan) and the advantage of having some experience in engineering etc.

tbh I can now see the benefit in starting out as an engineer and working towards a cpl when time and money allow for it to happen. I will most probably try to make the switch before I am 30 ifI go down this path.I am a tad worried that a fulltime engineering career would suck the motivation out of me, but as has been said by a few this might even be for my own good?

I had looked at entry pathways into the RAAF a few years ago but was deterred from taking it up because of the return of service period. I am sure that decision was pretty baseless (I was young and a bit silly :rolleyes:) and as of now I am not worried by bonds or anything like that, so I will certainly think about this!

Cheers all! I would be more than happy to recieve more advice/opinions through pm or posts :O

p.s - Rotaiva please check your pm thanks :ok:

[T28D]

God Damn learn to love your parents, Life becomes barren without them , flying is an occupation, family is forever

[Jack Ranga]

T28D, you are softening up in your.............old age :E.............retirement :E

[dartman2]

There are no airline "careers" left out there that will provide a good income. Most airlines are no longer organizations that you would event want to work for due to their attitude towards staff.

I agree with all the comments above regarding the RAAF. It is also worth considering that down the road if you wish to get away from engineering or flying they may well allow you to re-train in medicine, law etc.

Cadetships are becoming the preference for airlines for a variety of reasons. You will not learn much about flying from one of these courses. New pilots learn about flying by doing real flying in GA or the RAAF not sitting in an airliner doing the same thing every day.

The only way you should even consider the cadet path is if you are not successful with the RAAF and/or you do not wish to spend lots of money. In that case CX is the only cadetship that I am aware of that is free, but have a good read of the HK forums about its own issues.

Bottom line: use you engineering skills to earn and fly for fun.

[Mach E Avelli]

Dartman, a Captain with an airline like Virgin or even a smaller airline like Alliance is earning quite sufficient for these times. Not as much as a lawyer or a dentist or possibly a truck driver in the mines, but I know where I would rather be. If someone can"t live in an Australian coastal city on upwards of $130k, they must have expensive tastes in drugs. The time from starting out in GA to the left seat in one of these jets could be 10 to 12 years, but how long does it take in the other professions to tap into the good money? Not that much less, I surmise.

Given the choice of most other occupations, if I had my time again I would still go the airline path.

[dartman2]

Mach, FO's in the better airlines earn more than DJ/JQ CAPT's, but that is not the point. Those good jobs are no longer available to people entering the industry.

I'm glad you still enjoy the job but I could not recommend it to somebody starting out. Almost all my buddies in a variety of airlines want out and either reeducating or looking at businesses.

[Old Akro]

Engineering graduates are reputed to be the best paid of all. So, bank the money & save.

Pick your engineering job carefully. Try and get some experience that an aviation employer might see value in. Aeroplanes are technical things now more than ever, so that plays to your strengths. The hot buttons at the moment are CRM and SMS. Something that added experience in those areas might help. You should start with whatever aviation based engineering companies are near you - who knows you might get lucky.

Assuming your engineering degree is mechanical based (vs civil engineering, etc), then you should be able to knock off a couple of CPL exams with very little coaching. I would hope you've done enough human factors in your degree to be able to pass that one straight off. Aerodynamics & Performance shouldn't need much study. I'd get into doing them as fast as possible. You can't log CPL lesson time until you do. Buy some trial exams and see how you go.

If you are serious, I'd run straight into ATPL theory while its still fresh in your mind, but it imposes the discipline that you will get to 1,500 hours within the validity of the exam results (3 years?). Certainly, I'd be trying to do ATPL before you loose too much study discipline.

You'll need to build hours, so finding something like glider tow work on weekends would be a good thing. Anything you can get easily, locally (especially with a new PPL) will require that the organisation know & like you. So, be prepared to "hang around" some organisations you like to build relationships. You need to get to the CPL minimum hours as fast as possible and it doesn't matter what in.

You're going to be learning to fly part time for quite a while. I'd be looking to build a relationship with the most reputable school / instructor you can find. You'll be needing a recommendation or reference from them, so its important to pick someone whose recommendation carries weight. At some point you'll be asking someone to waive minimum time requirements to let you fly something. You need a very solid recommendation from a heavy hitter for that.

[pull-up-terrain]

Just from my experience, you probably will have a more "stable career" as a pilot than an aeronautical engineer in Australia

I think you will find an aeronautical engineer in Australia will be earning the same if not less than a turboprop FO unless he/she is willing to do an avionics/airframe engines apprenticeship and eventually become a LAME. (i actually did an aeronautical engineering degree) and i found that when i graduated uni the money was absolutely peanuts, and ended up going to Qantas and becoming a LAME where the money is. I have mates who graduated as aeronautical engineers at the same time as me and ended up at NAS and other defence force contractors and and they earn less than a jetstar A320 FO (these guys have been aeronautical engineers for 30+ years too), they have less job security than a QF LAME.

I have been at qantas 38 years and it is pretty **** at the moment and it is going to get worse unless something dramatically changes at qantas but i have mates who are LAME's and pilots at Virgin Australia, Tiger, Jetstar, Alliance, Network, Cobham, Skippers and they are fairly stable jobs (compared to a lot of other industries) earning more money than what you would ever earn as an aeronautical engineer in Australia and have slightly more job security than an aeronautical engineer.

But answering some of your other questions i know of several pilots at qantas who started off as Civil engineers and mechanical engineers and gave up engineering and went into GA for several years before getting a SO gig at Qantas. So it is possible, but with the high living costs of living in sydney, brisbane and melbourne i dont think you will be able to afford it without your parents help.

[Capt Claret]

Ross?

There are numerous options aside from parents funding or supporting the cost of flying, many have been suggested already.

I wonder if somewhat fresh out of Uni, you might be thinking that you MUST do this now. Many of us have worked a numerous jobs, saving money to fund flying. After I'd paid my way, at almost 27 & married with 2 kids on gaining my CPL, my mum told me she had the cash set aside for me to learn to fly when I was 18.

Long story short, at 18 I'd have been too interested in the pub and not applied myself as I did when I had family responsibilities. With the benefit of hindsight, I'd not change a thing.

It seems to me that you have the benefit of being able to be employed in the industry whilst you save. This will give you benefits and insights that many of us didn't get.

I disagree with the ney-sayers. Whilst the good old days of secure career flying might not be around anymore, I've been employed with the one company for close to 18 years. I'd like more pay but I don't think I'm on a bad wicket, and for the most part, I'm paid to go to work and have a good time.

Good luck and finally, your life is yours. Respectfully tell your folks you have to make your own decisions and live by them. Probably as your folks did before you were born.

[hoggsnortrupert]

That said, if you have a good amount of grey matter, and can use it, go an become a Doctor/Specialist- Accountant, or a gigolo:p!

Make enough money, buy your own aeroplane, make sure you have enough money spare to build a brewery,:D:D and throw at the odd female.

Dont take a wife, := just the odd hostage:ok: every now and then:

Aviation is a :mad: F--ked industry,

Dont believe me, then spend 35 years in it! and yes I love to fly:cool::cool::cool:, cant get enough, I just wish I had become a heroin:E addict, would have been cheaper:

The biggest bug bear for me, is the industry has no integrity, the 45's & under with university degrees, and their way of dealing with people both older, & younger than themselves have a different set of morals, and a different brand of integrity:


H/Snort:

[training wheels]

I was in the same position as you many years ago. My parents encouraged me to pursue a university degree after I completed HSC, which I did. Whilst at uni, I worked the graveyard shift at a servo and used that income to pay for my PPL. After uni, worked as a school teacher (one of the most dangerous jobs I've had) and paid for my CPL and MECIR and instructor rating. I was teaching for a good 10 years before I got my first job as a pilot. Mates of mine who I finished school with, took flying lessons as soon as they finished their HSC. One is now a 737 check and training captain at QF Domestic, another a management captain at JQ.

I now fly an RPT turboprop for an airline in South East Asia and my parents fully support my decision to change careers some ten years ago. I guess parents just want to ensure that their children have a good stable future, and the traditional pathway to an airline career via GA has never been that. But with a degree and work experience in another industry, you can always go back to your other qualification if things don't work out on your way to an airline career. I've personally had to go back to relief teaching more than once, in between flying jobs due to things not working out in GA for me and for this, I thank my parents for encouraging me to pursue a degree earlier on in life.

[Roger Greendeck]

Concur, reference joining the services. Don't forget that the Navy and Army have aeronautical engineers as well. You can enter as a pilot or as an engineer and change branch later but if you want to fly you are better holding out for pilot even if recruiting offer an engineer position. It can be very hard to change if you are in a branch that is short of people at the time.

If you go the civilian path you will need money behind you. Starting flying in a few years will not stop you having a good career and some financial freedom gives you more options for employment once you start. Engineers can make some good coin so getting some experience now will give you some cash and improves your employability as a pilot down track.

We've all been in you she's at some point, impatient to get into our preferred job. But if you can overcome the urge and play the long age it is more likely to work out better or you.

[ormgrace]

Against my parents wishes, I left a secure career to become an airline pilot. Guess what...the best move of my life. Am now retired, seventy, and halfway through a B.A. majoring in journalism. Never too late to do as your heart desires! Good luck cobber.