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View Full Version : Burmese Spitfires, they've found a crate.


NutLoose
9th Jan 2013, 12:26
BBC News - Burma Spitfire hunters discover crate (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20957162)

Full of dirty water so are pumping it out.... Looking promising.

BossEyed
9th Jan 2013, 12:39
...but they don't yet know if there's a crate in the crate. :}

(Yeah, I know. Coat, door etc)

Not_a_boffin
9th Jan 2013, 12:45
Is it just me, but I'd hardly describe a crate that has spent 70 years in another crate full of "dirty water" promising.....

Fareastdriver
9th Jan 2013, 12:59
At least if they are pumping water out it means that the crate hasn't been pancaked by the weight of soil.

The Helpful Stacker
9th Jan 2013, 14:29
Aircraft parts in a crate full of water?

If the F731 says its serviceable then pump the water out, brush the dirt off, stick it back on the shelf, jobs a good 'un.;)

Fox3WheresMyBanana
9th Jan 2013, 15:20
If the F731 says its serviceable then pump the water out, brush the dirt off, stick it back on the shelf, jobs a good 'un.

This would explain all those failures I had where the desk sergeant assured me the parts were "fresh out of stores". And there was me blaming WasteOfSpace for crap design....;)

Always a Sapper
9th Jan 2013, 19:25
Found a crate? Crate of what... Herforder, stella, worthy best?











yeah, yeah I know... Taxi for one...

Arm out the window
9th Jan 2013, 19:47
No, a crate, as in "Let's take the jolly old crate up for a spin, what?"

ShyTorque
9th Jan 2013, 19:50
Found a crate? Crate of what... Herforder, stella, worthy best?

Probably Spitfire Ale. Or something that looks like it i.e. muddy brown water.

Herod
9th Jan 2013, 20:05
Careful, ShyTorque. Shepard Neame will be wanting your email address and details. ;)

Always a Sapper
9th Jan 2013, 20:50
Tastes not that far away from the muddy w.... either :suspect:

ShyTorque
9th Jan 2013, 20:53
Careful, ShyTorque. Shepard Neame will be wanting your email address and details.

I'm always happy to be a test pilot... :cool:

CoffmanStarter
9th Jan 2013, 21:01
Someone mention a crate of Spitfires ...

http://www.ocado.com/catalog/images-hires/65374011_H.jpg?identifier=1786ecaa04cd18d45fa6519a0c4a5c4a

I know ... Hat, coat, gloves, scarf ... Door

ShyTorque
9th Jan 2013, 21:58
Someone mention a crate of Spitfires ...

Don't forget your reading glasses...see the four posts before yours!

CoffmanStarter
10th Jan 2013, 07:03
ShyTorque ...

Can't have too many crates :ok:

lsh
10th Jan 2013, 07:55
Andrea Neame used to live next door to us.

Prior to that the house was occupied by an ex RAF Pilot who flew Wellingtons, very nice guy.
Commanded a Fairey Battle Sqn in 1940 (!!). Also flew Stalin.
He wrote his story in "Climbing Turns". Patrick Foss.

lsh
:E

Jumping_Jack
10th Jan 2013, 10:43
I went to school with Charlotte Neame....gorgeous she was, and regrettably totally out of my league. :sad:

sisemen
10th Jan 2013, 15:02
One of the benefits of age is that you can chat to old girl friends and tell them that you fancied them something rotten when you were a kid but you knew that they didn't fancy you.

And then they stun you by saying that they fancied you rotten as well but thought that you didn't fancy them.

Funny old world.

Pontius Navigator
10th Jan 2013, 15:35
Come on chaps, thread drift, or did the crate drift when they pumped it out?

Sounds like the thing is still buried and only had pumps put on it.

Jumping_Jack
10th Jan 2013, 15:53
Not too much thread drift...'old crates' (well they are now....) :}

AARON O'DICKYDIDO
11th Jan 2013, 09:32
Back in 1973 the RAF recovered a Halifax bomber from the bottom of a ffiord in Norway. I think it is now on display in the RAF museum.
The condition of the aircraft after 30 years submerged in fresh water was quite good apart from the damage sustained during the war. On recovery it was subjected to some preservation/restoration procedures.
I am not saying that the Spitfires - if found - are in the same state but perhaps they will not be as bad as some are thinking.

Just thinking out load.


Aaron.

ORAC
11th Jan 2013, 10:03
Depends if the water/mud is anaerobic, which bogs generally are and hence why bodies and other items don't corrode. Hopefully they'll be wet, but intact.

Dr Jekyll
11th Jan 2013, 10:42
The Halifax in the RAF museum was too far gone to be restored even for static standard though. Except as a 'build a new one around the data plate' job.

Onceapilot
11th Jan 2013, 10:52
Having viewed the Halifax at Hendon on several occasions, I feel that it could be restored to a good static condition and retain a majority of its originality. Its present condition has a patina of a long submerged relic but, it really deserves the museum standard rebuild that the RAF museum has not faced up to (yet)!

OAP

bobward
12th Jan 2013, 11:22
Ref the Halifax in the lake post. The Canadians also raised a Halifax VII a few years ago. This now sits in the museum at CFB Trenton and has been restored to 'as new'. She looks magnificent.

Can any poster from CAF / RCAF advise on how much is new, and how much has been replaced on this grand old lady?

Sorry, just curious!:8

NutLoose
12th Jan 2013, 12:08
The reason the Halifax is as it is was they could not afford to restore it, they did the turret and that was it. I actually think the way it is displayed is excellent and puts across the losses far more than an immaculate static rebuild, though the turret looks out of place beside it.

I was suprised to learn recently on a TV documentary having been taught of the horrors of war in the WW1 trench's that the losses incurred by Bomber Command meant you had a greater chance of survival during WW1 than crewing a bomber.

.

Q-RTF-X
12th Jan 2013, 12:20
I was suprised to learn recently on a TV documentary having been taught of the horrors of war in WW1 trench's that the losses incurred by Bomber Command meant you had a greater chance of survival during WW1 than crewing a bomber.

Bloody Hell, that would shiver my late fathers timbers and he served on Lancs during WWII, I doubt he would have been aware of that statistic though.

Canadian Break
12th Jan 2013, 12:33
sorry, don't know how to post the picture. :ok:

Classic Ads | Spitfire - Premium Kentish Ale (http://www.spitfireale.co.uk/spitfire-adverts/classic.aspx)

SASless
12th Jan 2013, 12:44
I doubt he would have been aware of that statistic though.


Perhaps not that particular Statistic.....but I am sure he could count the empty chairs in the Mess after each Raid and knew the "odds".

Hand Salute to yer Dad!

racedo
12th Jan 2013, 13:06
I wish they would hurry up because at this rate if they manage to find the crates and construct 70 Spitfires they will be required by the RAF.
Mr Camerloon will be stating that he has been so good to the RAF that he gave them 70 (nearly) new Airplanes.

Never underestimate a politician.

NutLoose
12th Jan 2013, 13:17
It was on the Fifties British War Films : Days of Glory shown on BBC4

It's noted as he goes to the Bomber Command Memorial whilst discussing the success and how people could relate to the Dambuster film he states and i quote..

"Bomber Command had a death rate of 44.4%, you had more chance of returning from the trenches in the Great War than you did of surviving as Bomber Crew"


Stunned me when he said that, but when you look at the losses it makes sense sadly.

From Wikipedia

Bomber Command crews also suffered an extremely high casualty rate: 55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew (a 44.4% death rate), a further 8,403 were wounded in action and 9,838 became prisoners of war. This covered all Bomber Command operations including tactical support for ground operations and mining of sea lanes.[clarification needed][24] A Bomber Command crew member had a worse chance of survival than an infantry officer in World War I.[24] By comparison, the US Eighth Air Force, which flew daylight raids over Europe had 350,000 aircrew during the war and suffered 26,000 killed and 23,000 POWs.[24] Of the RAF Bomber Command personnel killed during the war, 72% were British, 18% were Canadian, 7% were Australian and 3% were New Zealanders. [25]
Taking an example of 100 airmen:[26]
55 killed on operations or died as result of wounds
three injured (in varying levels of severity) on operations or active service
12 taken prisoner of war (some injured)
two shot down and evaded capture
27 survived a tour of operations


Frightning.

RAF Bomber Command - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command)

West Coast
12th Jan 2013, 18:51
Bloody 'ell... How long does it take to bust open a crate, the suspense is killing me!

MightyGem
12th Jan 2013, 19:33
55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000
I believe that some 10,000 were non combat losses. Whether that is part of the 55,573 or on top of that I don't know.

alisoncc
12th Jan 2013, 20:30
At the rate that aircrew were being pushed through can well believe that a significant number were lost in training flights. Interested in hearing whether ground crew were considered non-combatants. There would have been quite a few lost due to enemy bombing, and maintenance accidents given the need to get aircraft airworthy ASAP.

Brewster Buffalo
12th Jan 2013, 20:40
John Terraine's history of the RAF in WW2 "The Right of the Line" gives a total of 70,253 RAF aircrew killed or missing on operations.

Of that figure Bomber Command made up 47,268. In addition there were a further 8,305 Bomber Command aircrew lost in non-operational flying. - ie 15% of the total Bomber Command losses.

NutLoose
12th Jan 2013, 20:49
If you have a row of crates and are pumping one out, one would imagine you are doing them all plus the surrounding ground, top that off with pumping it up some 30ft and it may take a while.

Wensleydale
12th Jan 2013, 20:51
The reason the Halifax is as it is was they could not afford to restore
it


Obviously they did not have a Halifax Saving Account.....:}

Pontius Navigator
12th Jan 2013, 20:54
If water got in the crate that would suggest the water table is above the crate. As you pump it out it will surely fill up again. They really need to put in a coffer dam.

Anyway, where are the photos?

Andu
12th Jan 2013, 21:15
It's true that the bomber offensive was thought to be a good idea at the time, in part in hope of avoiding the horrendous losses suffered in the trench warfare twenty years earlier.

In the 'unforeseen circumstances' stakes, this failed in two different ways:

(1) the losses we equally, if not more, horrendous than those of the WW1 trenches, and

(2) probably more important in the long run, and more tragic for the UK and Commonwealth countries involved, it wiped out, not just such large numbers of one generation, but the very best of that generation - the potential future leaders of those countries.

You only have to look at the political and business leadership in those countries after the war and to this day to see the stark truth in point (2).

Andu
12th Jan 2013, 21:46
.. should I have added "military leadership" to that list?

NutLoose
12th Jan 2013, 21:55
#38 (permalink)
Pontius Navigator
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 69
Posts: 8,904
If water got in the crate that would suggest the water table is above the crate. As you pump it out it will surely fill up again. They really need to put in a coffer dam.

Anyway, where are the photos?


Photos were on the Telegraph film, they only dropped a shaft down to the 1st crate.

Posted from it on the flypast forum

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02446/burma-spitfire-sca_2446762b.jpg

Tankertrashnav
12th Jan 2013, 22:22
Obviously they did not have a Halifax Saving Account.....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

That definitely deserves a :ok: Wensleydale

WhiteOvies
13th Jan 2013, 02:27
My grandfather and his brother both joined Bomber Command. My grandfather survived the war flying Lancs, primarily with 44 (Rhodesia) Sqn. His brother was sadly killed during training and is in a Commonwealth War Grave near Bournemouth.

So in our family it was a 50% survival rate, I'm sure other families were less fortunate.

I'm sure the sight and sound of these Spits would be incredible and I hope they find them!

topgas
13th Jan 2013, 10:19
Taking an example of 100 airmen:[26]
55 killed on operations or died as result of wounds
three injured (in varying levels of severity) on operations or active service
12 taken prisoner of war (some injured)
two shot down and evaded capture
27 survived a tour of operations

I'm currently reading the Nuremberg Raid by Martin Middlebrook, itself very sobering. He quotes the figures for "any 100 airmen joining into heavy bomber crews at an Operational Training Unit and for whom the war lasted long enough for them to serve the full cycle of service in Bomber Command" (which I take to mean two tours, around 50 operational sorties):

Killed on operations 51
Killed in crashes in England 9
Seriously injured in crashes 3
Prisoner-of-War (some injured) 12
Shot down but evaded capture 1
Survived unharmed 24

This, of course, does not include training losses before getting to an OTU

Tankertrashnav
13th Jan 2013, 11:54
I remember after the Falklands War a chap I knew who had been a FE on Bomber Command remarking on the total British casualties (255 killed) that they could lose more than that in a night on a large raid.

Didn't make the Falklands casualties any less tragic, of course, but I sort of saw his point.

Dengue_Dude
13th Jan 2013, 16:04
I remember after the Falklands War a chap I knew who had been a FE on Bomber Command remarking on the total British casualties (255 killed) that they could lose more than that in a night on a large raid.

Didn't make the Falklands casualties any less tragic, of course, but I sort of saw his point.

Yep, they lost more than that on the 'milk run' to Mailly le Camp on a moonlit night in Northern France just before D-Day.

I suppose scale doesn't make it any easier, but he DID have a point, quite right.

John Purdey
13th Jan 2013, 18:04
Not wishing to spoil a good story, but in 1945 the RAF dispatched a Sqn of Spitfires to Saigon to help the French to reassume control of the then French Indo-China, and a whole Wing of Spitfires as well as two Brigades of British troops to Jagakarta to help the Dutch to regain control of the then Dutch East Indies. Why should all these aircrat have been kept back?

NutLoose
13th Jan 2013, 18:38
Probably because one hand didn't know what the other was doing, also depends on role required as various marks were more suited to high or low level work, top that off with you would need to get them out, assemble them, get the manpower to operate them, the tooling, the spares etc, far simpler to shift a squadron that has those already in place.

Danny42C
13th Jan 2013, 21:47
John Purdey and Nutloose,

In March 1951 two of us from 20 Sqdn went on a gunnery course (Spit XIV and XXIIs, total 11 hrs) at 226 OCU, Stradishall.

Seemed no point in it at all, but there was a vague rumour that we might be going out to give the French a hand out there (nothing came of it).

Danny42C.

John Purdey
14th Jan 2013, 08:31
Nutloose. Your post leads to another interesting question; why send aircraft in crates rather than simply ferrying them out? Surely a ferry would have been faster and cheaper than a sea passage, and would have saved the effort needed to reassemple them. JP

lurkposition
14th Jan 2013, 09:35
Just about every ferry flight I have done in my career has had snags, delays, diversions, delays and delays. To have ferried spits half way round the globe in wartime would be "interesting" They didn't take that long to reassemble from the crated state in those days.

dallas
14th Jan 2013, 09:46
If you'd have seen the shambolic results of the UK's pre-1997 Hong Kong handover 'show of force' - getting half a dozen Tornado GR1s to the far east for an exercise - you'd soon know why they sent the Spits by ship.

Unless the tactic was to weaken the Chinese through laughter of course...

John Purdey
14th Jan 2013, 10:55
Drifting away somewhat, but reinforcements for the Middle East during the N Africa campaign were ferried through the Takoradi (W Africa) route, ie a cross very inhospitable terrain with virtually no support and primative airsrips, it would be interesting to know what the failure/accident rate was for that exercise. JP

NutherA2
14th Jan 2013, 13:52
I once ferried a Javelin (no flight refuelling) from Waterbeach to Tengah when 60 Sqn were re-equipping.

It took 2 weeks; we started with 6 aircraft and delivered 4. Sending them in crates by boat would have been safer, more economical and possibly quicker?

TorqueOfTheDevil
15th Jan 2013, 15:48
An old SAR pilot with a royal surname once told me about a ferry flight of 5 Wessex from here to Cyprus many moons ago. Apparently two of the aircraft made it more or less as planned, another two experienced some problems but turned up within a reasonable timeframe, and the fifth one took 67 days to complete the journey! Perhaps someone can elaborate?


the Takoradi (W Africa) route


There's a remarkable account of one man's experience of this, flying a Hurricane, in 'Out Of The Blue' by Laddie Lucas. Well worth seeking out if possible.

Tankertrashnav
15th Jan 2013, 16:00
I once ferried a Javelin (no flight refuelling) from Waterbeach to Tengah when 60 Sqn were re-equipping.


In a similar vane I once met a chap in my shop who had ferried a Single Pioneer out to Seletar. He flew in company with another, plus a Piston Provost which accompanied them as far as Oman. The route seemed to go all over the place, and IIRC took them 37 days! I'd have loved to have seen his logbook.

Again - much easier by ship (and in this case not much slower!).

Fareastdriver
15th Jan 2013, 19:30
Single Pioneer out to Seletar. He flew in company with another, plus a Piston Provost

That is called a Trionides.




Ok, hat,coat, Taxi

esa-aardvark
15th Jan 2013, 19:43
Surely, unless it's a seasonal thing, the water table will
always be at about the same level and the original hole diggers
would have encountered it. So maybe seepage from rainwater ?

surely not
16th Jan 2013, 15:37
John Purdey, my father was based in Takoradi as an engineer putting together whatever came out of the crates, but he was dealing with multi engine bombers mainly. When they were flown up to their operational units the engineer flying on the aircraft was given honorary 'Flight Engineer' status so that if they needed to get spares en route they would have sufficient clout to be able to order them.

Sorry for the thread drift...................

Haraka
16th Jan 2013, 18:07
My father witnessed the burial of many Stirlings ( in sand) at Kasfereet in Egypt Canal Zone post war......
Taxied in , wings chopped off , shunted into a massive trench "grave" about 800m long..

Long chats with Him, Jack Bruce and Bill Sayer (Mates of Haraka Snr. who both respected and used his technical knowledge) at RAFM on this one in the late 70's.

ShyTorque
16th Jan 2013, 20:27
Haraka, I reckon those aircraft would have a far better chance of survival than the Burma Spitfires.

maliyahsdad2
17th Jan 2013, 11:52
Hunt for lost Spitfires 'buried in crates' continues as JCBs dig trenches around Burmese airport | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2263804/Hunt-lost-Spitfires-buried-crates-continues-JCBs-dig-trenches-Burmese-airport.html)

whowhenwhy
17th Jan 2013, 16:43
Anyone got a spare few million so we can go Stirling hunting? Not sure we've got any of those preserved have we?

Wensleydale
17th Jan 2013, 17:09
What is the Stirling exchange rate in Egypt at the moment?

Fareastdriver
17th Jan 2013, 18:11
Not sure we've got any of those preserved have we?

Have a dig around Edzell, in Scotland. That was the Halifax and Stirling disposal unit after the war. My father used to ferry brand new Hailfaxs from the factory to there to be scrapped.

NutLoose
17th Jan 2013, 18:24
BURMA UPDATE: Hunt for lost Spitfires ‘buried in crates’ continues as JCBs dig trenches around Burmese airport. | Forces-War-Records (http://forceswarrecords.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/burma-update-hunt-for-lost-spitfires-buried-in-crates-continues-as-jcbs-dig-trenches-around-burmese-airport/)


Witness: Stanley Coombe (right), a 91-year-old former British soldier who is one of eight people who said they had seen buried British Spitfires in Burma, has reportedly returned home

Return: Mr Coombe, from Eastbourne is reported to have been sent home for being ‘surplus to requirements’ just before the British led team started digging for the crates

Well you would have thought they would have kept the old boy on to see them raised instead of shipping him off "Surplus to Requirements"

Fareastdriver
17th Jan 2013, 18:29
Well you would have thought they would have kept the old boy on to see them raised instead of shipping him off "Surplus to Requirements"

Maybe he had nicked the clocks out of them and didn't want to be found out.

Gemini Twin
17th Jan 2013, 18:43
Well if he was "surplus to requirements" it's a wonder they didn't put him in crate and bury him too.;)

Tashengurt
18th Jan 2013, 07:29
BBC reporting that archaeologists no longer believe there are any Spitfires.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

maliyahsdad2
18th Jan 2013, 08:00
BBC News - Archaeologists believe no Spitfires buried in Burma (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21074699)

AtomKraft
18th Jan 2013, 09:47
Keep Digging! :ok:

500N
18th Jan 2013, 09:52
For more money from the backers or the Spitfires :O

soddim
18th Jan 2013, 11:00
Australian finds 5.5Kg gold nugget:

BBC News - Australian amateur prospector finds massive gold nugget (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21055206)

Maybe they should have dug in Australia

500N
18th Jan 2013, 11:05
Well their is that much Gold and Gold nuggets left
in the ground but within metal detector range it will
keep being found for years :O

People make a living out of it !

So you are probably right !!!

B Fraser
18th Jan 2013, 11:31
Not so much Spitfires, more like Zeros.

TBM-Legend
18th Jan 2013, 11:50
Well some consolation from the project, Burma motorists will enjoy following a couple of JCB diggers at 7:30am on the roads each day now. This is globalisation...

PS: The Spitfires may rust in peace now...:{:{

Danny42C
18th Jan 2013, 17:01
maliyahsdad2,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for the link to the BBC story (if only for the gorgeous pic of the Mk. XXII).

Rest of it sad, but predictable. But good fun while it lasted !

Danny42C

radar101
18th Jan 2013, 20:33
Have a dig around Edzell, in Scotland. That was the Halifax and Stirling disposal unit after the war. My father used to ferry brand new Hailfaxs from the factory to there to be scrapped.


And my old man, an RAF fireman, then took a chainsaw to them and then buldozered them into a hole at the end of the runway - crated engines as well (he says!)

Haraka
19th Jan 2013, 12:07
Just a parting shot on the Kasfareet Stirling saga.
Haraka senior witnessed their burial around 1947 at the latest ( he was back at St. Eval in 1948) . Others have confirmed on the internet that some 7 or so Stirlings were there around that time, and also certainly were out of sight and mind by 1951.
The RAF Museum did ask for a survey from the Egyptians in 1986 apparently ( some 40 years after the event) . I don't know anything about any results of this enquiry.

Heathrow Harry
19th Jan 2013, 15:22
I can remember a Stirling at a Battle of Britain display when I was a small child - the undercarriage!!!!

Pontius Navigator
19th Jan 2013, 15:40
Stirlings were there around that time, and also certainly were out of sight and mind by 1951.
The RAF Museum did ask for a survey from the Egyptians in 1986.

I believe there was a major withdrawal of forces from Egypt in 1954. I recall that a Hastings aircraft was Cat 5 there. With the withdrawal of British forces it was reassessed and decided to fly it back to UK. It was later modified to T5 standard and assigned to BCBS. It is possible that aircraft like the Stirling might then have been destroyed to prevent their being used by the Egyptians.

The withdrawal from the canal zone saw the closure of Tel-el-Kebir, the major supply base, with much stuff shipped to Cyprus. Amongst the stores shipped was said to be stacks of blankets, blankets which were reputed to have led to the import of bed bugs.

Haraka
19th Jan 2013, 16:20
I am convinced beyond reasonable doubt that they were there c.1947, buried in sand. Post 1954 ,who knows?,
Incidentally Radar penetration works best in dry loose soil conditions...............

Self Loading Freight
19th Jan 2013, 16:32
If Spits you seek/On whispered rumour/Make sure your backers/Have real good humour/Burma-Shave

500N
19th Jan 2013, 21:03
SLF

That is very good :ok: :D:D

GQ2
15th Apr 2013, 17:38
There's a TelelKebir Road in Pontypridd, in the Rhondda...are you sure your Stirlings aren't there....? :p

Actually, Stirlings were pretty horrible things, but I suppose it's a pity one didn't survive. Just. Mind you, I'd much rather a couple of Hornets had survived, far more fun...! :)

cuefaye
15th Apr 2013, 21:10
I'm told by several 'experts' that there are pristine WW2 aircraf, ex Squires Gate build, buried in a field of mine adjoining my house. Happy for them to dig, but they're very reluctant to cough up the 50K exploration fee which I'm asking. Strange?

Pontius Navigator
15th Apr 2013, 21:12
Shouldn't this be moved the Rumours or Jet Blast?

It is not even History or Nostalgia :)

OKOC
16th Apr 2013, 10:08
...."The withdrawal from the canal zone saw the closure of Tel-el-Kebir, the major supply base, with much stuff shipped to Cyprus"..

Ask Chris at Crishkebab--he has probably got the lot buried in the Akky Salt Flats just waiting to dig them up for his pension. Ahem.

reynoldsno1
17th Apr 2013, 00:02
That would probably be the world's biggest battery then ...