2012 CTC OAA & FTE Graduates review

[FANS]

It would be very helpful if those that graduated from CTC,OAA & FTE in 2012 gave a review of the course and what they are now doing.

This unfortunately involves some effort, but I’m sure that it would be helpful for the many that are looking at these schools.

[Humberprop]

This has the makings of a good thread if it hasn't already appeared before. It would be good to know out of personal interest and for the many young PPL students who ask me about the success of obtaining a job after an integrated course.

It would be helpful if the replies stipulated whether working for a major airline, low cost airline, regional carrier, instructor or not working in aviation etc straight after the completion of your course in 2012.

[_ShIfTy_]

FTE

2009-2010 Brilliant time, great students, great instructors and absolutely horrendous Canteen food!

Bar and swimming pool 30 seconds away was also very handy.

Two years for first job - Jet2

[Chief Willy]

OAA/CAE match up having a few teething issues. Instructors still very good (but some of the good staff have sadly left), ground school good but school now very busy (classes up to 50), the customer service side as average as usual. Aircraft even older, but some of the Senecas do fly from time to time. People seem to be getting interviews quickly for Ryanair upon graduation. Oh, apparently students are supposed to share bedrooms in Arizona when they move bases to the other side of Phoenix.

[a4000]

I graduated from one of these schools in early 2009. Just under 50% of my course are in flying jobs, all lo-co or regional.

I was one of the lucky ones and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. However, would I start training in the current climate? Not a chance!

[harryc]

Please put me out of my misery !! I asked this question on the another thread but can anybody out of OAA have a guess on the average class size and how many classes for 2012 so that i can take the 188 placement figure away from it and get an idea how many are still to be placed

[FANS]

A handful of replies to date.

Come on guys, this is useful information for the hundreds thinking of joining an integrated scheme this year but having to rely on the schools' presentations and employment stats.

[pug]

I asked this question on the another thread but can anybody out of OAA have a guess on the average class size and how many classes for 2012 so that i can take the 188 placement figure away from it and get an idea how many are still to be placed

Pure speculation however having read through some of the threads recently, it would appear that there are courses of c.50. Assuming (?) that there is a course start every two months then 300 will graduate every year. Leaving a 62% placement record. Obviously there are other variables, such as are the self improver students included in the placement stats?

Doesn't seem too bad to me, however I dont have a spare £90,000 lying around at the moment to take the punt..

[mad_jock]

The employemnt statistics includes everyone that went through the door.

It includes all modular students as well even if all they did was distance learning for the theory course.

I did distance learning and was included in the figures for that year.

Also as well its not just last year it includes anyone in the last 5 years thats been there and needed to get a reference for an airport pass.

So your 62% is a bit high. Once you strip out ryanair who will take modular as well its really not very good.

In fact if the beast which is Ryanair stops pulling in cadets due to the tax issues which are on going and the fact that they have recived there last aircraft delivery the out look is pretty dire unless you are on a tagged scheme.

[harryc]

Thank you pug, so on pure speculation it could be said that if CTC has the same class sizes and intake as OAA that with their 100% placement record they must be sending near on 250 to Easyjet each year with 50 to others?

[pug]

Mad jock has posted a more realistic and informed picture, and it doesn't look quite as good.

Of course, any placement record doesn't consider the T&C's the students are placed into. The BA FPP is certainly by far the best of a bad bunch at the moment, which is reflected in the number of applicants this year. There are some great people going for this and the final decisions are going to be difficult.

[Chief Willy]

The average course size at OAA is probably around the 20 mark. The odd double-course gets up to 50 but they are rare. As a guess I would hazard that 200-250 integrated cadets going through each year would not be far off. If the stats include modular then it would be difficult to put an exact number on it. I think an employment rate of 75% would sound fair for integrated cadets at OAA - pure speculation based on some anecdotes.

[mad_jock]

if it was that high and they could pove it they would be using that fact for marketing.

I suspect its around 40% for none tagged students and if ryanair stop that will drop to under 10%.

[harryc]

I think we are slowly getting to some sort of answer,don’t forget Jerez and other FTO.s placement into the big two, how many are they taking each year? I am a father trying to calculate through the sales blurb that despite reading 5000 billion pages of pprune - and I don’t exaggerate! can’t get to semi accurate figures - but I presume there are lots of people on here that know the intake details? and placement ratio.

And also lots of people who completed their training in 2011 in the big three that unfortunately don’t have a placement yet can provide info stats and advice

It was a good point that the placement figures could be from historical students also and not from the qualifying year and Iincluded 50 placements for tagged

I think with the amount of people that want to join the three FTO, s this and next year this is the ideal subject forum to gain from in training cadets in the know the figures required, this can do no harm to their chances of placement as it will probably only deter people behind them, but I think it will take a lot of participation apart from maybe a representative of each of the big three to explain the 2012 stats

The decision for a lot of students later this year is:

Go to university and get a backup career qualification which has been recommended just over 10 billion times on this wonderful site whilst still being able to apply for tagged cadetships as long as you don’t do any ATPL exams or 60 hrs PPL and wait for a possible recovery or FTO but for 2013 / 2014 for your £150K inclusive of TR, what are the chances?

[mad_jock]

You won't get acurate figures.

The CAA figures are even setup so that nobody can make head or tale of how many are coming out with CPL/IR and ready to work and how many get the intial type rating.

Its all commercially sensitive for very good reason because it is.

[Polorutz]

I'll add my 2 cents...

Graduated 09 from CTC, entered the then huge hold pool and waited a whole year for the call. Started flying for easyJet as flexicrew but took the first opportunity to go permanent and it all worked out.

CTC as a school is extremely good, I've flown with about 4 other schools and CTC was by far the most professional, it is very demanding but also rewarding as they truly do take you from zero to hero.

CTC as an employer (flexicrew), not so good, back when I did my time as flexislave, they took advantage of our leave and other things. I joined when flexicrew didn't even exist and I don't know if I would take the plunge now.

My final verdict, if you have the money and aren't putting yourself or your family in financial risk... go for it, it's a pretty good way to get to the rhs of a jet provided you make the grade.

All of my mates are flying for airlines now, most of them are still flexi, a few of us permanent. All relatively happy though.

Best of luck!

[EcamSurprise]

As well as the RYR figures I’d strip out the Easyjet figures as well as anyone that OAA has provided to them over the past couple of years will no doubt be on short term flexi-crew contracts, as always there are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics. While the OAA statistics do not openly lie they are a very distorted view of the truth.

I completely agree with that fact OAA stats are far far from the truth.
(They included people in their stats as getting Jobs with Cathay.. what actually happened was that these guys couldn't find jobs in EU land so had to head off to the other side of the world to do ALL their training again, to become Cathay Second Officers..)

However, i disagree with the easyJet figures.
I and many many of my colleagues are now all on very good, permanent contracts with easyJet with a good future ahead of us.
And the flexi contracts aren't short term either..

[bex88]

I believe in the year I went through Oxford there were approximately 325 intergrated students. Classes ranged from 20 to 30 and in August they had a double intake of 60. Put on top of this modular which seemed to be quite a large number and graduated guys gaining employment at say a conservative 25% and your chances of finding employment shortly after graduating would be about 30%. Now thats based on what I saw happening and the demographic of the two courses either side of my own. Its not exactly fact but it does represent a three month window so come to your own conclusions.

Four and a bit years on of the 30 guys on my course only most are in flying jobs including BA, Lufthansa city line, easyjet (quite a few), Ryanair (most), wizz, a private charter company, cathay pacific. Some have been made redundant once or even twice before and some are now onto their third airline. About 15-20% did not go on to get jobs within four years. Some of the guys above are included in the 2012 statistics so it goes to show its not as easy as is some times portrayed.

[FANS]

To the few that have contributed, it has been helpful.

To the other several hundred that have graduated, your lack of willingness to help inform potential new students is beyond belief.
These guys need current information that isn't from the schools' PR machines, and you can't be bothered to write a few lines but were desperate to know everything a few years ago. Unbelievable.

[norton2005]

I think the only thing that is unbelievable here is that response by fans. not everyone checks here every day, and all the views could well be non integrated people. that was a spoilt brattish reply, and as good as this thread could have been, i dont think people should waste their time posting now to this kind of rudeness.

[mad_jock]

To be honest most pilots who graduate and then get into jobs tend not to come into wannabies.

A few do come in and then when they give there view about what the industry is like they then get someone telling them they are talking rubbish and they don't bother again.

Most line pilots really don't give two hoots about wannabies they have their own worrys about thier lifes. From the mundane of rosters to the ever present changes in buisness plans which may boot them out of work. Apart from the few big boys you really are living month to month in most outfits wondering if the axe is going to drop. And some know the axe is going to drop and just wonder when and how much money they are going to loose.

There are some poor sods out there that have lost over 10'000 pounds with companys going bust.

[EcamSurprise]

Fans, a lot of us are just too busy in our actual lives.
Waking up at 330 to go and do a nice 4 sector day.. the last thing I want to do when I get back is come on the wannabes section of the forum where everyone doesn't believe what is being said because most of them are wearing rose tinted glasses. (I know.. I was one!).

I qualified from OAA in 2010 but couldn't tell you what the current situation is now. It has changed a lot and so has the aviation market.
I was very very lucky to walk almost straight into a fantastic job and again, this isn't representative.

I am sure it is what all the wannabes want to hear... but 80% of my friends struggled to find jobs and some don't have them at all.

CAE/OAA will continue to sell the courses as best they can.
On the OpenDays while I was a student they had a big banner showing off connections to BA... even though BA hadn't taken people from the school in quite a while AND the guys who WERE in the waiting pool were all being dumped! Nice uh?

Oh and the only people you will meet and talk to at a open day are:
* OAA Staff - sell sell sell
* Current students - delusional hopefully AS THEY HAVE TO BE to have the motivation to keep on working hard!
*Graduates with jobs - happy as pie to show off in uniform

The guys you WONT talk to are the ones who didn't get the jobs and the ones who have 80 - 100K loans left to pay... I think that says enough.

[EZY_FR]

Every wannabe should read the fantastic and informative post written by Ecamsurprise.

[Bealzebub]

I fly with many of the graduates from one of these FTO's and have asked the question why so few people post their experiences on this forum, and that was long before this thread started. In these examples they have done extremely well to go from (effectively) "zero" to being an airline First Officer in 18 months. To a permanent contract of employment in 24 months. To a standard First Officers salary scale with over 1000 hours on type in 36 months. All of these timescales based on the day they walked into that first day of classroom with the respective FTO.

I appreciate that this doesn't necessarily represent the terms and conditions on offer elsewhere or at all times, but given the satisfaction expressed, their appreciation of their own good fortune, and the ability of many of these cadets to amortize their training loans over a period of 60-84 months (if they so choose,) you would think a few more would be shouting it from the rooftops?

The truth is that when I pose the question to some of these successful graduates, the answers pretty much mesh with the responses given above. Most people cannot be bothered to contribute to a forum where they perceive they will be simply accused of bragging, or being attacked for their elective choices, or being stooges for the FTO concerned, (imagine that!)

All forums of this nature have enormous disparities between the numbers of contributors as opposed to the number of readers. There are also a lot of people who don't want to supply what they consider personal or private information. There are people who have succeeded, who are happy to get on with their lives and let other people figure it out for themselves. There are people that don't read the site.

For those reasons and many more, you are never going to get a particularly relevant response, and as with so many threads of this nature, it will be a case of sorting out the wheat from the chaffe.

[mad_jock]

There is a huge difference between a tagged cadet and a self financed.

Unfortuanately the tagged Cadets airlines need the self financed students to put the familys home on the line for the current system to continue to work.

Alot of us are just waiting to see what happens when the expansion aircraft deliverys have finished. Whats going to happen next?

[Bealzebub]

We take both from the same source. They are all self financed. A few are pre-selected through the same criteria that the FTO uses for its normal course selection criteria. The placements and any offers of employment are still dependent on achieving the requisite standard.

"Tagged" in most cases, simply means that the FTO will endeavour to find a placement wth a partner airline on successful completion of the course. When candidates apply for selection with the FTO the successful ones complete a course of training that includes an enhanced MCC course and in some cases (depends on the partner airline) inclusive type rating training. A placement should then follow with that partner airline for a period of 6-8 months. Offers of employment may then dovetail from those placements if the partner airline has a requirement at that time, and if the cadet has progressed through training to the requisite standard.

For candidates that are not selected through the FTO's initial screening criteria, there is often the option to assume a higher degree of risk, and embark on the same courses, with the ability to follow the same pathway to airline placement provided that the requisite standard is maintained throughout the course of training. For these candidates the enhanced MCC course may be an additional cost. Any additional type rating costs would be the same as for the other cadets.

In either case, the training costs or bond monies are financed by the student.

A lot of people (understandably) have become focused on what happens with one or two airlines that have dominated the marketplace through a period of severe recession. Whilst their expansion may well slow down, others are coming to the fore, and any recovery should see a transference of expansion to other companies and their respective markets. Then there are the rapid growth markets on other continents. Already there is ab-initio training supply into these markets, and that is also likely to expand (subject to all the usual variables and caveats,) in the forseeable future.

If the "hold pool" numbers stated in a previous post are correct, and given that this is the time of year I would expect them to be at their lowest, then that is quite good given the numbers completing courses on an annual basis, and the current economic realities. Last year at this time, the same "hold pool" was empty.

Where expansion is now occuring, the resultant recruitment needs are unsurprising: Experienced type rated pilots (from other airlines,) experienced non-type rated pilots (from other airlines and the military) and cadet pilots from the selected FTO's. Each airline will set their own requirements, but I am currently seeing each group represent an equal measure of one third from each source. As I say, nothing in this is surprising. The only real growth sector as a percentage is in the supply of cadet pilots. The other thing worthy of note (although also unsurprising) is in the movement of ex-cadets (who are now in the type-rated experienced group,) moving from companies with weak T&C's, to those with better ones.

Most of these cadet placements, whether the terms are perceived as good or bad, still results in currency of licenses, ratings and medicals being paid for by somebody else. They result in progression and experience. Todays 200 cadet starting with an airline, is January 2014's 1000 hour cadet. January 2016's 2500 hour experienced type-rated pilot. January 2018's command candidate.

Expansion will certainly see the deck of cards being shuffled, however that deck of cards is likely to be the Aces and high picture cards as far as the airlines are concerned. Todays cadets are in that group.

[119.35]

I always enjoy reading the contributions from both Mad Jock and Bealzebub - their perspectives from their wealth of industry experience is invaluable. They are must reads for anyone considering flight training.

I pretty much think for integrated, it's either 'tagged' or bust. I can't see any good reason to pay the premium for integrated training if you're not on a tagged scheme? Unless you have bottomless pockets.

For modular at the moment, you need to have a very good plan to separate yourself from all other 200 hr CVs. Scatter-gunning your CV around the world does mot work. With the lack of operators taking on fresh modular students at the moment, combined with the lack of recruitment generally (outside of EZY and RYR - although how will that look in 18 months?), a vanilla cpl/ir does not give you much chance of success unfortunately. Even if you budget for the TR that any future employer will no doubt require.

Draw up a list of operators that currently recruit (when they have vacancies) 200 hr modular students and you will find that it is very short. Such a list would be invaluable to anyone considering going down the modular route and doing just a cpl/ir (no FI ticket etc). I think it would really focus the mind!

[mad_jock]

I pretty much think for integrated, it's either 'tagged' or bust.

Thats my view as well.

All the others are just keeping the schools open for those selected.

The big thing to watch is what happens after the last aircraft deliverys to the loco's.

Will they give out 3 year contracts then replace.

Will they be forced to give perm contracts.

Will they through an agency get you trained up with a decent company. Then move you to one that has half the T&C's. Already happening with flexi screw.

Flybe I have heard is pretty rammed at the moment with the wage bill going through the roof due to people staying and no movement in the work force. How long they can continue taking cadets without expansion I suspect we won't have long to wait to find out.

Ryanair is going to be the one that sets the tone and I suspect it will be pretty harsh due to the wage profile they have. 3 year FO earning proper money or a cadet who gets payed next to nothing. I think we can all guess whats going to happen.

And of course this major player which takes the bulk of the sub 300 hour pilots does take anyone how ever they are trained.

[Gentle Climb]

I think that Fans response is unfair. I cant imagine that many people who have graduated from OAA spend too much time in the Wannabies section of the site...

I would also suggest that all of the information that he/she is looking for is already on the site if you look for it. Personally, I wouldn't base a decision on what people that I have never met, who may have their own agenda, have different values and have different expectations, post on a website. The decision is your alone.

OAA graduates with jobs will, in general tell you that the course is good...those who aren't flying might have a diffeent story. How it compares to modular or another FTO, I really couldnt say...I haven't experienced them.

I didn't get a position via any of the normal OAA/CAE schemes and the support from OAA was iffy to be honest although I am aware that steps are being taken to improve this aspect.

One of the reasons that I got the interview for the job that I am about to start was because the person looking after recruitment has experience of training OAA graduates and felt that they knew what they are getting.

The course is expensive but it does what it says on the tin. Could I have done it more cheaply? Of course. Would I have done better or worse? I don't know. Would I have got a my current job if I hadn't got OAA on my CV? I suspect not and that for me, is the bottom line. So is it worth it...well it was for me but my circumstances were very different to anybody else that I know who went through OAA.

Most graduates are ending up with FR & Easy but the recruitment opportunities via OAA are worldwide. As FR and Easy dry up they might well be replaced with a worldwide choice of companies. Any new student would do well to bear in mind that the comfortable position at the front of a jet based close to home is not likely to happen. The far east, Eastern Europe and China could be home for a while.

Finally, most graduates are being employed on flexicrew contracts. Think about what this means. Flexi hours, flexi base, flexi pay. A friend who was based at LGW, was told a few months ago that he could either be laid off for a few months or transfer to Germany for two years on about 45% of the pay. He had to go...sits in his room every night watching his infant children grow up on Skype back at home. Be very careful what you wish for!

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Although, in principle, this thread is a good idea it is flawed and will never give a balanced view of the real status of cadets.

Several years ago, I graduated from a cadet scheme that was considered to be the best way into an airline. At that time the pilot jobs market was slowing down with many of the UK charter airlines merging. All of those who had graduated from the cadet scheme in the past had been quickly placed into airlines, even after 9/11. In my case, I was placed into a hold pool for over a year. To be fair, the training provider did come through and provided good jobs with respected airlines to others on my course. In my case, I lost faith in them and found my own job. I am doing just fine these days, so don't take me as bitter and twisted.

I never posted on this forum exactly what was going on during that year, drowning in the hold pool. The training provider kept me in the dark and gave me no information about what was going on, they probably did not know either. At one stage, they were offering self sponsored type ratings with no job attached, which was not what I signed up for. I was in severe financial turmoil, unemployed for part of the year and was in a total state of limbo. At no point did I, or my fellow hold pool swimmers spill the beans about what was going on. I didn't want to aggravate the training provider by moaning on a public forum, there was a culture of silence within the hold pool. I also did not want to admit my situation to myself.

I know of one ex cadet in my local area who flew the A320 for an orange airline. After his six months of flying, he is now working in a supermarket, whilst looking for work on the Airbus. Maybe, he will find it but he sure as hell isn't going to come on here saying "I graduated from X scheme, flew the Airbus, was let go after six months and am now working in a supermarket for minimum wage with a mountain of debt whilst hoping to find work in an impossible jobs market." If he does find work I'm sure that he will tell you about it but until then, silence.

As Mad Jock says, it's a desperate market right now and I am not going to expand on what he has already said. I would not like to be a cadet, in deep debt relying on this industry to provide a living. I probably wouldn't admit it to myself let alone on a public forum.

[mad_jock]

The big problem stepping outside europe is that you are into shark infested waters when it comes to contracts and local law. Hell even long term freelancers get stung on a regular basis.

Also as well there isn't the same tax claw backs which companys can make money with. So they won't rake the VAT back and the corperation tax and not have to pay as much local social tax due to decreased salary.

And all these places want locals in. If you look a tthe schools they are all trying to start up local schools in these areas because they know the european market has stagnated but alot of folk haven't realised it yet.

Its become more and more common now that its illegal for companys to employ none locals without experence not only total time but also time on type in most of those areas.

[Humberprop]

I'm quite impressed by some of the straight forward and in most cases impartial replies to this thread as they can sometimes be hard to find on this part of the forum.

It would be good to hear from people who successfully completed an integrated course and are now enjoying a completely different career. Understandably, they may not check this site. If you know one of these people please persuade them to provide an account of their path and whether they are still flying for fun.

Also, it would be good to know what people did to pay the bills while they were in a holding pool waiting for their job after an integrated course and whether people have struggled to find meaningful employment after explaining their absence from the work place for 18+ months. Did the training provider seek other aviation employment for you while in the holding pool?

[EcamSurprise]

Did the training provider seek other aviation employment for you while in the holding pool?

Ha, they hardly seek aviation employment once you've finished the course and they're shot of you.

[nabanoba]

Do you or does anyone else know if the cadets from CTC who went to Monarch and BA cityflyer were tagged or untagged?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

[Bealzebub]

Most of the wings cadets with CTC have no idea where they will end up once they have successfully completed the basic and intermediate training and have their CPL/IR's. A few are from time to time pre-selected by the airlines concerned, where that airline can foresee a definate requirement in 15-18 months time.

The presumption that I have observed, is that the majority feel they they might be offered placements at easyjet. A reasonable presumption since easyjet have far and away had the largest demand in this market over recent years. More recently, other established partners such as Monarch have also come back into the marketplace to satisfy a proportion of their recruitment needs. In the case of the latter they have quite recently introduced an MPL programme in partnership with CTC. Cadets selected for this programme obviously know where they will be going to, upon successful completion of the basic and intermediate stages of their ab-initio training. Those cadets on the traditional ab-initio fATPL route do not know where they will be offered placements (save for a few) until they complete those stages of their training.

Placement offers, depend on the partner airline demand at the point each group completes their training. The natural training windows with many airlines (not all) takes place in the Winter and Spring, so it is most likely that demand (offers of placement) will be greatest in the period approaching that window. I am seeing people being offered placements now, that graduated last Spring/Summer. This time last year, I was seeing people starting type rating courses who had finished their training the previous week! The majority of these cadets didn't know where they were going until the month before they actually started with the airline.

The "tagged" and "untagged" labels are rather fuzzy in this case. Very few succesful candidates from this source are "tagged" in the sense that they know their placement before they graduate. However most know they are "tagged" in the sense that if succesful they will be going somewhere at some point. A few are "tagged" to specific partners by virtue of that partners involvement in the pre-selection process. Examples of the latter would be the British airways FPP programme, and a handful of fATPL cadets taken on by Monarch, as well as the MPL cadets taken on by the latter. The majority of placements still follow the traditional route.

The future is dynamic of course. Growth in MPL programmes is likely to see a higher percentage of cadets progressing through this route. If that proves to be the case (and it very likely will,) then more cadets are going to know their likely destination upon completion of their ab-initio training.

[EcamSurprise]

To the other several hundred that have graduated, your lack of willingness to help inform potential new students is beyond belief.
These guys need current information that isn't from the schools' PR machines, and you can't be bothered to write a few lines but were desperate to know everything a few years ago. Unbelievable.

Funny how we haven't heard anything from FANs...
Maybe he realised his attitude is the component here that is unbelievable..

:rolleyes:

[mad_jock]

yep so your arse can get sold to satan on a wings course. You could get a flexi screw then sold to an eastern operator on reduced conditions or you could get sold into a eastern asia contract with zero employment law and your T&C's reduced when they feel like it.

And then left to pay the loan off if you don't like it.

You really wanting to sell this to wannabies Beazlebub is keeping your mates employed until their retirement that important you willing to shaft wannabies that much you going to sell them into that market?

If you are willing to do that just to keep that prefered method of training you like you should really have a word with yourself.

And please please carry on replying so it comes up in the search engines so parents can see the depravity that the industry elder statesmen are willing to go to to protect their prefered method of training. How many family homes are fair game to be reposed just to keep the schools open?

[Bealzebub]

You really wanting to sell this to wannabies Beazlebub is keeping your mates employed until their retirement that important you willing to shaft wannabies that much you going to sell them into that market?

I am not selling anything to anybody. I am answering questions with what I know from the perspective of a senior airline pilot with an airline that is a partner to one of these companies. I am not sure what "mates" you think I am keeping employed since I don't have a single "mate" in any of these FTO's. I have however researched this market and been involved with many of the graduate pilots that have arrived from that source for 15 years or so. I have always been impressed by the cadets we receive from these programmes in the years when we have done so. I believe we are a good partner with a long track record, and one that offers excellent opportunities to those graduates we take on. It would seem that many of the graduates feel that way as well. These graduates are certainly not "shafted," and we take pride in developing them into good captains, training captains, ground trainers and managers. Over the last 15 years that is what many of them have become.

If you are willing to do that just to keep that prefered method of training you like you should really have a word with yourself. Yes. We are quite happy to recruit around a third of our annual pilot intake from this source. Most of these cadets stay with us, and almost all of them go on
to fulfil one or more of the career advancement opportunities I have already described. All of them seem able to manage their training costs with the excellent remuneration and T&C's on offer. So what word is it you think I should have with myself exactly?

I don't describe what other companies do, or what their terms and conditions are. I describe what we do. If that is helpful to anybody in making an overall assessment of the market and their own situation then that purpose is fulfilled. I don't think I have ever presented an unbalanced or dishonest appraisal of the view from this vantage point.

There are many people that would give their right arm to fly Jetstreams from some windy outpost, and I don't doubt you can give them a qualified and realistic appraisal of that market, and how best they can avail of themselves of the many opportunities available!

Whether you like it or not, whether I like it or not, or indeed whether Satan himself likes it or not, the realities are what they are. I don't tell British airways or Monarch or easyjet or Qatar airways or the many other companies who do employ cadet pilots, where to send their trainees or where to select their cadets from. However, it doesn't take much effort to find the answers.

In the grand scheme of things, few people will ever satisfy the selection for one of these programmes be that by the filters of luck, finance or ability, or indeed any combination thereof. Those that do, want to know what the reality of this marketplace is. I can offer a qualified picture of this section of it, without resorting to rant, vitriol, bitterness, jaundiced opinion or subjects I know little or nothing about. So I feel qualified to respond. If people want to ignore, argue, challenge, or dismiss these responses, that is fine.

I have never done anything, other than to caution anybody considering investing large sums of money in flight training, to research and research carefully.

As for the "depravity" I have already said that I do not believe the opportunities we offer successful applicants are either immoral or evil. So depravity is a complete misnomer as far as we are concerned.
Is it a preferred method of training? Yes it is. That is why it is utilized by many of the major cadet schemes. I am also quite happy with that. If it didn't work we wouldn't utilize it.

How many family homes are fair game to be reposed just to keep the schools open? I have no idea, and on the assumption you actually mean repossessed, and haven't suggested a figure, presumably neither do you! Of the cadets I fly with, I am not aware of any of them in such a predicament. However the sums of money involved in flight training are eye watering, and not to be sensibly undertaken without both a serious appraisal and a good fallback strategy. A lot of people do borrow these large sums, and many of those loans are undoubtably secured on property. I am sure there are people that have found themselves in enormous difficulties as a result of these strategies. The prime lenders in this market usually want an equity margin (including the proposed loan) of no more than 60% of the securing asset (house!) They also usually satisfy themselves that the guarantors are likely to be able to satisfy their own affordability assessment, should the primary borrower default. For that reason (and however unwelcome that scenario would likely be,) I doubt many family homes are "fair game" to be repossessed just to keep the schools open.

[mad_jock]

Nobody has said don't go for the cadetship schemes.

Its the selling of the product to self financed students which is at issue. There is very little openings for them because as you have pointed out the big boys are doing cadetships now.

Unfortauntely there just isn't enough cadets to keep the current system economic its relies on a huge raft of people to fall by the wayside with destroyed dreams. I am sure you have never met the ones with debt problems and worrying about the family home being taken by the banks.

[Bealzebub]

Its the selling of the product to self financed students which is at issue. There is very little openings for them because as you have pointed out the big boys are doing cadetships now.

As I have said before, they are all self financed. Some of those that are not selected for the airline programme courses are offered the opportunity to undertake the same courses, whereby if they achieve the same results (despite their initial non-selection,) are offered the same placement opportunities upon conclusion. They take on an element of added risk, and the overall course costs may be higher because advanced training elements (such as an enhanced MCC course) may be an extra cost rather than an inclusive one. Nevertheless, these cadets are offered the same placement opportunities subject to the caveats I have already mentioned. The "big boys doing (the) cadetships now" are taking them into those programmes. We certainly are.

Unfortauntely there just isn't enough cadets to keep the current system economic its relies on a huge raft of people to fall by the wayside with destroyed dreams.

The FTO that our cadet programme utilizes would appear to find airline placements for almost all of their succesful graduate cadet pilots. A few are undoubtably unsuccessful along the way, and a very small element may find their own opportunities, having obtained their licences and ratings. I doubt the majority have "destroyed dreams" and it most certainly isn't in the FTO's interest to allow that to be the case. As a destination for some of these cadets, we would hope to give those "dreams" a boost by providing a combination of excellent advanced training, and excellent career opportunities, for those who work hard and maintain a steep learning curve. In my experience all of them do.

What other airlines do or don't do. What other FTO's do or don't do, is for others with their own experience to comment on. There is no shortage of such comment on these issues. In the case of the FTO we utilize I don't see a field of littered corpses, in fact I see quite the opposite. However, in the wider world such carnage is very often the case.

[FANS]

The point of this thread was very simple – to give those considering the big schools, very recent information.

The fact that those who’ve recently graduated over the last 12 months – and there must 300+ - can’t/won’t give minimal assistance to those that are only one further notch down the ladder than them is very disappointing.

The schools will no doubt fill any information gaps with their golden stats.

I’m alright jack.

[The Dead Side]

I think it's tricky and risky for those who still haven't found their first job, to comment on the quality of their flying school on such a high profile public forum.

Firstly, if they are relying on their FTO to provide careers services, the likelihood is they don't want to damage any chances (however unlikely) of getting put forward for any jobs, by slandering the quality of their training, online.

To that end FANS, I imagine you'll only receive feedback from those who already have jobs and after 6 sectors still have the sense (or quite the contrary) to come and read the futile arguments posted here on PPRuNe.

Secondly, the experience of going through an integrated flight school holds a lot of personal value. Therefore, I doubt graduates are too inclined to give away such information on public forums. Compare it to posting a thread with the title 'Airline Chief Pilots Post Your Details Here', it's unlikely you'll get many responses. However if you were to ask 'are there any graduates who would be able to answer a couple of questions over PM' there's a fairly good chance you'd get some (and more importantly, honest) answers.

I doubt you'll get much feedback now you've expressed your opinion of the general population of graduate pilots in the manner you chose, but perhaps be less expectant and demanding in the future, it maybe the difference between pleasing a HR manager or p**ing-up an interview.

[FANS]

This thread is not for my benefit.

I set it up as I considered it would be helpful for people to hear of recent experience at these 3 schools and where cadets currently are. As helpful as Mad Jock's and Beazlebub's posts are, they are not from those that have recently gone through a course. Equally, we all criticise schools' statistics but won't provide any feedback.

The fact that there have been very very few replies from the many people who when selecting a school a few years earlier wanted to know every little detail confirms my view of those that have embarked on an untagged integrated course in the last few years.

[Talewind]

Given that Easyjet is not an Airline Partner to FTE Jerez, would that mean that a student obtaining an ATPL through FTE Jerez would have next to no chance of being employed by Easyjet?

ie should we look at each schools airline partners when making a decision about which school to train at.

Thanks

[LastMinuteChanges]

Graduated OAA late 2011 with high 90s over ATPLs, first time passes and a solid report, nothing salient from them aside from Ryanair. Groundschool, Basic and Advanced (IR) Flying stages were good if not a bit poorly organised whilst out in America. Completed PILAPT assessment in May 2012 at Dibden Manor and joined the CTC ATP Holdpool in October 2012 after completing their Airline Qualification Course. Found CTC to be very good for the brief period I was there (1 month).

Now awaiting placement (plus, on the look-out for other opportunities) with one of their partner airlines, whilst working at a very large international airport in a pertinent and high-responsibility role for an orange carrier. I also instruct flight simulator experiences and run a aviation-related business part-time.

Approximately 75% of my OAA course are employed with Ryanair, the rest are not currently flying. I fly light aircraft fortnightly to keep my skills up.

Hope this helps.

[contacttower118.2]

Interesting post LastMinuteChanges...

From an employment point of view, I know obviously the basic reason that not everyone gets employed from the OAA integrated course is that there are not enough jobs to go around but beyond that can you shed any light on why some get jobs and some don't?

I mean is it ATPL theory marks, flying skill demonstrated on the course, or just how a candidate performs in an airline's assessment having been invited? Do Oxford try harder with placements for people who have performed better on the course? To what extent does the standard achieved on the course influence job prospects? Or is it just chance/luck?

Also on a separate note you mention you work for a certain Orange airline now, do you see any hope in applying to them if they run their internal pilot recruitment again?

Thanks for posting on this thread, for people yet to go through the process it is very much appreciated. :)

[LastMinuteChanges]

ContactTower,

Essentially some get jobs whilst others don't because it does boil down to your grades and performance over the course.

Since I have been in the OAA holdpool, aside from Ryanair, only two jet jobs arose - flying as an SO for Air Atlanta Icelandic at no cost to you, but only secure for 2 months, or flying as an SO for Volotea, at a cost of £25K for a B717 TR. No turbo-prop jobs have been offered unfortunately.

In my case, I did not apply for either as Air Atlanta Icelandic would have clashed with my CTC Airline Qualification Course training, and at the time, I didn't think it suitable to spend a vast sum of money (albeit on a jet) on an aircraft that had such a limited amount in service in Europe.

Sometimes people can refer to it as 'pot luck', but the blunt matter of fact is, that most graduates up until now, have qualified at OAA and then attended Ryanair assessments. Some have been successful, some haven't and unfortunately there seems to be no rhyme or reason as to their recruitment methods - so I can't comment on that unfortunately.

You need a high standard to be considered for job interview. When OAA send out an email to all graduates stating there is a job available for 'said carrier', you will be competing against perhaps 100 other individuals (it was once less, but now CAE have taken over OAA, they've added their pilots into the mix) who are just as ambitious and as driven as you - if they have better grades, reports and above all, perform better on the day - they will get the job, not you.

Aim for above 90% on your ATPLs, with no failures in those exams whatsoever, as well as first-time passes in your CPL and ideally your IR. A good MCC report is crucial too. Your CV needs to show you 'have a life outside of work' too, so make hobbies and subjects studied varied, and not just about aviation.

OAA run 'Interview Preparation Workshops' and also host seminars, I believe tomorrow is with Air Tankers on their role with the RAF.

My role is contracted out to the orange carrier, so unfortunately I do not work directly for them. But, this orange carrier is a prominent recruiter from the CTC hold pool, and prior to my graduation, operated the APPFO+ scheme to take on graduates from OAA. Although this approach may look quite like I'm adopting 'tunnel vision' in my search for a job, it can't hurt to have fingers in different pies so to speak.

The orange carrier is my dream airline, but we shall see. 'Best laid plans of mice and men often go astray'.

Good luck, you can PM me if you wish buddy.

[contacttower118.2]

Thanks again, I may PM you in the future if I have any more specific questions...:ok:

[FANS]

LMC - your posts will have been very helpful and will be appreciated by a wide audience.

Best of luck.