AAC flying pay error/recovery plans?

[ralphmalph]

Seeing as this is a rumour network (and I don't live the the UK anymore)

Is there any news of the rumour that circa 160 AAC aircrew have been overpaid FP since 2008 when things were aligned?

It appears that not all the dots and crosses were completed....or some other excuse....and there is a VERY significant amount of money owed.

Anyone received a letter or notification?

To be honest......I'm not surprised!

Just waiting for an attempt to recover any money..........

[ralphmalph]

Guess it is just a rumour then!

[airborne_artist]

Two old threads on this:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/501807-flying-pay-shambles-again.html
and

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/398416-army-board-action-aac-flying-pay-disparity.html

Are they related to your question?

[Biggus]

a_a,

When you consider that ralphmalph posted the second to last comment on the first thread you link to, and was the originator of the second thread you link to, one would like to think he was already aware of them! :ugh::ugh:

[GazelleFan]

Or is there more to the silence on this one than meets the eye. I wonder what would happen if those affected have found another place to plan their response while their team lawyers get up to speed?.....

[Muzza999]

General feeling is this one is best kept off line for now. I'm sure people are chatting about it, perhaps just not in the public domain for obvious reasons.

[ralphmalph]

So given the fact that this has reared it's head again.....and the AAC appear to be doing nothing to help their "spin"

The great shame is that many people are happy to talk but not act.......

The recovery action is going back years......years.....against people who where paid money in good faith by the system.....

Disgusting.

What covenant?

[SilsoeSid]

Disgusting.

What covenant

Well, if these folk have been overpaid, I would expect that under the covenant they would be treated like any other public servant that has been overpaid.

For most of the Armed Forces Community, the
Covenant is about removing disadvantage so
that you get the same outcome as the civilian
community. It’s not about getting special
treatment that ordinary citizens wouldn’t
receive, or getting a better result.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/143994/Armed_Forces_Covenant_Myth_Buster.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/the-armed-forces-covenant

I suggest that rather than using the covenant as some miraculous multi faceted get out clause, in this case as an excuse to keep money that you possibly weren't entitled to, you read what it is really about and stop devaluing it.

Introduction to your Pay Statement
101: If you have a problem with a pay issue, talk to your Paymaster
102: Don't go spending any money that you think may have been overpaid.
103: If you think you have been overpaid, tuck that money away somewhere just incase.
104: Communicate by recordable means. This makes your case stronger, when they ask for it back. (ref 101)

Here's one from 2006;
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/243538-army-flying-pay-there-may-trouble-ahead.html

7 years of warning of possible over payment!!!

[ralphmalph]

Silsoe,

I agree with the cut and thrust of your post. The problem is that at the time, people believed that they were receiving correct FP.

There are some who know that the spirit of the FP system was played in their instance....I'm not talking about that.

What if you took money that you believed to be correct, transferred to another arm and continued on flying pay based upon that assumption.....then ten years later the MOD asked you to cough up?

The real deal IMHO is this is a crude manning lever to dissuade people from leaving. It might not be what it looks like from outside....but thats what it appears looking out!

It is recognised that this is down to "interpretation" of a few individuals (Not consecutive post holders) and therefore is sticky ground.

The Covenant.

I understand the spirit of the covenant completely.

I want to be paid correctly....without the JPA transition/Glasgow circus. And when I received money in good faith.....on a scheme detailed on letter headed paper from HQ AAC....what more should I believe. Correspondence has been recorded...but appears to count for nothing.

This is not about overpayment in all cases......in some its about underpayment over years.

7 years. YES, Seven years to resolve a dispute over pay. I think if we were dealing about a blue chip company.....they would have been in court by now.

Meanwhile people deal with overstretch and underfunding on a massive scale....a war in Afghanistan that exhausts people, and spits them out. Service personnel have been doing their part of the bargain by executing the plan.

And you wonder why people feel aggrieved.

Please don't lecture me about the covenant.

[ralphmalph]

On a AFPS05 pension my flying pay is directly linked to my pension.

It is reasonable to expect to understand the pension you will receive over halfway through your service.

Assuming a 3-4 year training throughput for officers---I am right on the cusp of being able to attain third tour FP before my pension point.

Tenuous yes....but when there is confusion....it effects my pension.

[Trim Stab]

General feeling is this one is best kept off line for now. I'm sure people are chatting about it, perhaps just not in the public domain for obvious reasons.

If they'd been underpaid it would be front page news on the Sun by now.

[Just This Once...]

On a AFPS05 pension my flying pay is directly linked to my pension.

This sentence has me puzzled. When did flying pay become pensionable?

[Hovermonkey]

SP(F)
has bugger all to do with your pension.

[ralphmalph]

Gentlemen,

Apologies, I fired off the last post in a rush.

If I was to serve beyond my 16 year point on PA spine....then it would have an impact on the increment I went in at....and that I could reach for my pension....

Ralph

[SilsoeSid]

ralfmalph
On a AFPS05 pension my flying pay is directly linked to my pension.


Remuneration Team Pensions and Compensation, Ministry of Defence
Pensionable Earnings
Basic pay including the X factor but excluding
allowances, bonuses, financial retention incentives,
loan service pay and any form of specialist pay.
AFPS05 (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/27965/20120823AFPS05YPSEMMP124revisedAug2012.pdf)

ralfmalph at the Wings Parade Awards Presentation

Best Of ralfmalf

[ralphmalph]

Silsoe...

I thought a man of your advanced age would have know who ralphmalph was?

;-)

As I said in my last post......I flashed and posted half a story....I meant PA spine.

So in a roundabout way....it kind of is.

[Scotch Bonnet]

Although the monetary clawback only goes back to 2007 (JPA/Legal apparently) the calculation in order to get to that point goes back further.

Q. If somebody declined their OTT for 05 pension because of a false/incorrect financial forecast (ie the calculation had an incorrect pay amount) then can they challenge their own decision (based on a duff forecast) and transfer to AFPS 05 should they choose to?

[ralphmalph]

Scotch Bonnett,

The "claw back" goes further than that....I know of one individual who left the AAC in 2005 for service in another arm, who is being looked at, not only by the AAC.....but for the knock on overpayment from his present service.

I think that you would need that statement in writing and dated before you could begin to use that.

I imagine you would have had to have formally expressed your thoughts on paper (how many of us do) to claim retrospectively.......or we could all do it!

[Scotch Bonnet]

I was not aware of that Ralph, thanks. One to watch methinks.

[MG]

So are you saying that some individuals changed cap badges, went to to non-flying roles and continued to be paid flying pay? Even in the RAF it's understood that a remuster to another branch, such as Flt Ops, will mean a stop of flying pay.

I would love to see the letter from HQ AAC. Any chance of re-submitting it here, with the necessary redactions?

[Wander00]

My grey cells are spinning - a long time ago, but I seem to recall a difference of approach for a "mistake in law" and "mistake of fact". After all these years since I was in Command Accounts (Command Paymaster's Branch for the brown jobs) all I will say is "get expert advice" - there may be a way out. Good luck. W

[ralphmalph]

MG,

These people transferred and continued to fly and progress on what they though was a correct band......

Now it appears otherwise.

[SteveTonks]

See below post

[SteveTonks]

Take a look through JSP 462 and the chapter reference Debt Recovery. Also read up on Estoppel and Mistake of Fact/Law. JSP 462 also refers to the Guide for Handling Debt Recovery Cases produced by CLS.

JSP 462 is the accountants document and with alway assume bad faith on the service persons part, whereas the CLS guide ALWAYS assumes good faith as circa 95% of pay and allowances issues are the fault of the service.

I would suggest submitting a casework application to the PACCC via your unit admin (the format is in JSP 752 and 754). The first try with almost certainly be refused by the reviewing WO. The first appeal goes to a SO2 and the second (and last) appeal goes directly to the CEO of SPVA (2 Star equivalent).

Along side this, if you have received a letter from Debt Recovery asking for the money back, then get a solicitors letter drawn up stating your legally defensible position and refusal to repay sent in response.

If you have a recovery action on JPA then ask for a Pay Query to be raised (JSP 754 Annex A to Sect 6 Chap 2) If you don't agree than an over issue has occurred or complete the form at appendix 1 if you agree with the over issue but are objecting to repay it.

It sound like this has been going on for some time (7 years?). I would strongly advise you to get some legal advice reference the limitations act as the MoDs claim to the money may be Statute Barred.

[ralphmalph]

Steve,

Excellent advice. Forwarded.

Cheers

Ralph

[Wander00]

ST - that your real name - sure I know you from somewhere years ago. Ian

[MG]

Ralph,
Understood, thanks. Somehow I didn't think it would be that obvious!

[SteveTonks]

ST - that your real name - sure I know you from somewhere years ago. Ian

Sure is my name, I don't really subscribe to the alias anonymity...

Where do you think you know me from?

[Wander00]

I'll PM you later, I am travelling all day - if you were around the scribbly world in late 80s/early 90s our paths may have crossed - just a familiar name even to my aging grey cells. Ian G