N-Word (yet again!)

[unclenelli]

Just screened on Ch 5 (UK) was The Dambusters (1954)
Complete with the word "Nigger", several times at the end of the final briefing/death on A15.

(Admittedly, I missed it on Ch5 and watched it on Ch5+1)


Well Done Ch5 (Last time I saw it was Ch4 Edited!!!)
Stephen Fry - Take Note!!!


I have hosted several OOA quizzes which have included US Forces (including Afro-Americans) in the audience. One of my favourite rounds is "Dead Animals" - A picture round featuring pictures of famous, yet deceased animals - Petra (Blue Peter), GreyFriars Bobby, Keiko (Free Willy), Hercules (Scottish Bear), etc & "railings outside a hangar"!

No-one has ever complained about me using the word "Nigger" as the correct answer, even after the plane spotters round which included a picture which looks like "a bloke sat in a bath under a fabric wing".
Yanks mostly suggest "The Wright Flyer", but it is actually "The Cayley Governable Parachute" - which flew a full 50yrs before Orville & Wilbur!

[NutLoose]

Standing by for incoming, this thread will last as long as Buster without Viagra.......

Odd though no one moans about it being used in Blazing Saddles either, but that's a comedy, is its all right then.. :ugh:

Annoys me when the PC brigade tries to rewrite history.

[Sir George Cayley]

My Dear unclenelli, many thanks for remembering my work those many years ago.

Near Brompton Vale in Yorkshire, England is a Public House which bears my name. If you should ever visit tell them your first pint is on me.:ok:

Sir George Cayley

The air is a navigable ocean that laps at every man's door

[HAS59]

Just for a minute there I thought someone had said Nimrod...

[Temp Spike]

Well the original version is availible on Netflix I am ashamed to report.

[500N]

Dambusters, "nigger", does that mean we can expect
a certain PPruner to post a photo of .................... :O

[CoffmanStarter]

500N ...

I think said PPRuNer is ordering the following as we speak :ok:

http://oldtoysoldierhome.com/images/RAF011(L).jpg

[DC10RealMan]

I always find it frustrating that this subject raises its head when discussing the Dams Raid.
I would have thought it far more important that over 50 young men, the pride of Britain and its Commonwealth never returned from this raid.

[newt]

Just goes to show what a changed world we live in now DC10.

I watched the movie and was pleased to see it was not edited from the original. Afterall, that was the dogs name! Not much different from calling the wife The Nagger!!:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Newt ... need one of these ? The box that is :ok:

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z271/notreallythabo/naggingwife2.jpg

[unclenelli]

Sir George
Thank you.
I'm well aware of said establishment (& your namesake) in the dip on A171.
I went to school (Graham)/VI Form in Scarborough and was also an Air Cadet at 739.

I doubt it will be soon, as I no longer have much in the way of any family links to Scarborough, but if ever, I'd like to take you up on the offer, and maybe have a long chat. I'll let you know if I'm in the area.
Or maybe you'd prefer to donate the pint to the ATC Sqn - 739 Sqn, Air Training Corps, TA Centre, Coldyhill Lane, Scarborough.

UN
Dep Vasco De Gama

Check your PM's

[newt]

No Coff. Divorced them all!!:ok::ok::ok::ok:
But she does look good in a box!!

[langleybaston]

Interesting. I am against re-writing history but I don't think it is a "BIG ISSUE". I certainly agree that we should not be diverted by the controversy over retaining Nigger from our admiration of the young men who showed huge courage and fortitude.

Last night, family dinner, I casually referred to Zell-am-Zee being " full of Wogs". My wife nodded in agreement, my daughter chastised me for using the word in the presence of my 16 and 19 y.o. granddaughters.
I pointed out that, had there been any Worthy Oriental Gentlemen present [the etymology of Wog] I would certainly not have used it. I added that my father spent 3 years in Egypt in the war, and the word was commonplace as a descriptive short-hand, as likely to be used as Arabs or Egyptians.

I might as well have saved my breath: grandpa was in the dog-house.

This from a generation that Fs, Cs and generally blinds in public, and thinks getting off their faces on a Friday night A GOOD THING, which my generation does not do.

I don't get very excited about the matter, and am not about to drop Nigger and Wog for private consumption, and not about to start F-ing and blinding either.

Nowt so queer as folk!

[El Grifo]

Well I still go out for a Chinky almost every week, irrespective of what country I find myself in.

I have done for 35 years and am highly unlikely to change.

My daughter likewise is not too impressed :ok:

[500N]

"and thinks getting off their faces on a Friday night A GOOD THING, which my generation does not do."


Not sure which generation you are but see the word Grandpa.

I think the difference is that in the past it was more likely
done in the mess or in private, now they spread themselves
all over the street - and the front pages of the newspapers !

[Two's in]

The bounds of social acceptance are an ever moving target. Dragging sailors underwater around the outside of the ship for relatively minor infractions was perfectly acceptable in the Royal Navy at one point - today, not so much. Shooting soldiers suffering from PTSD during the First World War, because it was wrongly deemed to be "lack of moral fibre" was perfectly acceptable then. Now, post Afghanistan and Iraq we realise what a hideous and perverse miscarriage of justice it all was. Hanging, drawing and quartering felons is now out of fashion, as is sending small children up chimneys.

These behaviours were socially acceptable and even condoned at the the time, but as our form of civilization developed and matured they became unacceptable. In the same way language is also a part of our culture and societal norms. When words that were perfectly acceptable in a bygone era have the potential to cause offence or insult to a group, it is usually civilized and polite to use words that don't cause offence, unless causing deliberate offence is the goal.

The only person who ultimately controls what comes out of your mouth or is written on paper is you. If you think an Alf Garnett era vernacular works for you, then it's an individual choice to continue to do so, but while the rest of society moves on, don't be surprised if such terms are regarded as anachronistic or casually racist at best. Some do it to shock and attract attention, some do it though genuine ignorance of societal norms, and sadly some people simply hold that disparaging view of their fellow human beings and see nothing wrong in continuing to verbally abuse them on a daily basis.

Remarking that GG's dog was called Nigger in an age when that word was socially acceptable is one thing, longing for the days when you could call anyone the N-word without the righteous, liberal, PC pansy brigade getting on your case is something very different. But the truth is manners maketh man. The words that come out of your mouth define you and what you are to others, whether you care or not.

[NutLoose]

I stil awaiting a re run of the long running TV series, Love Thy Neighbour..... Do you think they still hold it In the Archives along with Till Death Us Do Part.

As said above they were the culture of the day and were sitcoms, for right or wrong it's all part of mans tapestry of life, but historical events is another matter, to change history because it is loathed in today's culture is a far more serious undertaking...

It might be a dogs name, but more than that it was a codeword. There are already those in the world that wish to erase the likes of the Holocaust from mans history arguing it never happened. Where do you stop? The story of the Holocaust helps remind man or their inhumanity and warn those that come after us what we are capable of, and hopefully prevents us from repeating the errors of our predecessors.

Yes we put people in chains treated them like dirt and called them names, but to erase that as if it never happened will do nothing to improve things, learning from our past and the way we behaved helps the generations to come in understanding where we went wrong and to correct it.

[LowObservable]

I am not a PC Person, at all.

However, the N-word is uniquely associated with slavery, the Jim Crow regime that persisted for a century and was active in living memory (I am getting married in March, a marriage that was illegal where I live until the late 1960s) and overt social discrimination.

And while I would not go along with its suppression in history... this is a movie, an entertainment that we are talking about, and it is about bombers, mines and men on a near-suicidal mission, not about black Labradors.

[NutLoose]

During the war there were very few people from other countries in the UK and those that arrived were welcomed, the dogs name originated from its colour which was close to a popular paint colour of the time, nothing more.
The PC brigade have tried to write it otherwise.

[US Herk]

The only person who ultimately controls what comes out of your mouth or is written on paper is you. If you think an Alf Garnett era vernacular works for you, then it's an individual choice to continue to do so, but while the rest of society moves on, don't be surprised if such terms are regarded as anachronistic or casually racist at best. Some do it to shock and attract attention, some do it though genuine ignorance of societal norms, and sadly some people simply hold that disparaging view of their fellow human beings and see nothing wrong in continuing to verbally abuse them on a daily basis.

The challenge with PC is that we now allow the listener to decide what our motive and intent is. This is bass-ackwards. The faux outrage and offense, particularly by those who may not even be affected by the words or constructs, is ludicrous. Further, there is no right to be free from offense. Not everything in life is pleasant.

It would be amusing, if it weren't so sad, how everyone 'harrumphs' when anyone uses a word or phrase no longer in vogue as if it has changed the meaning of their point. Too much pride is taken in the correcting by the pseudo-offended, holier-than-thou brigade.

[CoffmanStarter]

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk20/Cavboy80/S1053025.jpg

Time to move on I think with this one :ok:

[BEagle]

Too much pride is taken in the correcting by the pseudo-offended, holier-than-thou brigade.

Including the F-15 children who banned the use of the words 'head' and 'box' and insisted upon 'locker' (yes, really) and 'container' - because the more normal words were deemed offensive to wimmin.

So we asked them to stop using a word which was highly offensive to female members of our detachment. Mortified, they asked what the word was....

"Bush".

:\

Gibson's sodding dog wasn't a pedigree black lab at all. It was a bit of a mutt, with a white blaze and was dark brown. The same colour as a well-known paint pigment (and Kiwi boot polish) colour of the time.

[Alber Ratman]

Hope Peter Jacksons / Stephen Fry's script when it see's the light of day is accurate to the drama's of the preparation / execution / memory of "Chastise".. The token Yank is already build in and his dramas pre take off / raid fit in nicely with any plot building.. Doesn't matter about the name of the dog, wouldn't even have got a mention in history if his owner had kept it on a lead / tied to a post when it was outside..

[tezzer]

Also on TV yesterday, Gillette Soccer Saturday,the presenter, Geoff Shreeves talking about Mario Balotelli got hlfway through calling him the "enfent terrible" and cameout with the "enfent noir". Oops, but made me smile.

[FTE Pruner]

This might change your view on the word in question: Prejudice by Tim Minchin - YouTube

[Old-Duffer]

I had cause to visit the offices of a well known business consultancy in Chicago. The purpose being to discuss a computer software project.

During the debate on something or another, I used the phrase 'fag packet design'; comments which left one or two people horror struck!

Following the next coffee break, I had to apologise for my gaff and explain that in UK a 'fag packet' was a cigarette carton and had nothing to do with one's sexual orientation. I also had to explain that F.P.D was a phrase for something scratched out quickly and without recourse to formal design conventions.

I think it was W S Churchill who commented that: 'the US and Brits were two peoples separated by a common language'.

Old Duffer

[Running_In]

Personally, I have zero problem with the name of the dog being removed from the film and if it's re named in Peter Jackson's film.

The N word is considered by some to be very very offensive. Considering it is hard to underestimate how important the name of the dog is to the story of what was achieved during the dam's raid I really can't understand why people get so excited about it being changed.

No one has a right not to be offended, but you should make an effort when you can not to offend people. It not as if a film like the Dambuster is designed for a niche audience either, it is designed for mass consumption as Peter Jackson's will be. Why not change an insignificant detail if in the 60 since the events attitudes have changed so that it is now considered rather offensive?

[Aileron Drag]

You should not change historical fact. The Ruskies did it, and we despised them for re-writing their history. Now your generation want to do it also.

We called our French enemies 'Frogs' during the Napoleonic wars; we called the Germans 'Krauts' in WW2 and 'Huns' in WW1. Think we should change that?

Black people call each other 'nigger', for pity's sake. Why is everybody so bl**dy sensitive these days? My mates at school called me a "skinny streak of p*ss" because I was 6' 2" and very thin. I found it quite amusing, and insulted them back.

I'm all for respect, but this 'guilt over slavery' thing is way out of control. England destroyed slavery in the early 19th Century, and without the UK's efforts in WW2 our nemesis Adolf would have ended up ruling the world and killing every non-white on the planet.

Get off your pseudo-guilt-horse.

[Milo Minderbinder]

The dog doesn't even have to be named. It could just be generically referred to e.g. "Hello Boy" or "Mutt".......though I can see the latter could cause identification confusion during the test drops

Seriously though......is the dog really important to the story? More of a worry is that the code word for breaching one of the dams was "Nigger". You can't escape the fact that that WAS an important part of the history

[Running_In]

AD

The N word is very loaded. It is very insulting to an awful lot of people. We used the word 'Frogs' against people we were fighting. The 'N' word is linked to mass slavery. That is like comparing apples and pears.

I've got absolutely nothing to feel guilty about, but I am very aware of the fact that there are a great deal of people who would be made to feel very uncomfortable by the use of the N word. Considering that it is a pretty unimportant part of the story I don't see why on earth people don't just think ''times have changed, the N word is pretty offensive now in a way it wasn't in 1940's England, so lets just change it and move on''

It is pretty obvious what black people are doing when using the N word among them selves.

[500N]

"Black people call each other 'nigger', for pity's sake. Why is everybody so bl**dy sensitive these days?"

And a hell of a lot worse.

Even using the word "black" gets sideways looks nowadays,
yet Aboriginies use it all the time - as well as white !!!

[500N]

"The 'N' word is linked to mass slavery."


And before that Portuguese and before that, it's original source, Latin !!!

So let's get the facts straight on where it came from.

[Running_In]

500N

I said it was linked to mass slavery, which it is.

The etymology of the N word is pretty irrelevant.

[air pig]

Running_In, have you a PC axe to grind here, the name is a fact of history, grow up and get over yourself. The biggest proponents of slavery were some of people of Arabic extraction and the British did indeed try to stop it. Slavery still exists today in sexual exploitation, Chinese snakehead gangs and even recent cases in the UK about slavery in involving paedophiles and travellers.

[Aileron Drag]

Running_In,

I'm trying to find an example to illustrate my 'problem' with re-writing history, because the reality might offend someone.

1. American civil war. One Confederate officer saying to another (in a filmed epic), "Jeez, Jethrow, you wanna move them canon? Why not git them there ethnic minority gentlemen to help yuh?"

2. 1942 - Warsaw. SS Colonel to Gestapo Chief. "Ach I vill finish vith this ghetto once und fur alles. By tomorrow, every follower of das ancient und noble religion of Moses vill be dead!"

That is what you are doing - changing history because you wish it had not happened. Because it 'offends'.

Man, life is offensive.

[Running_In]

Air Pig,

From my point of view, considering how offensive the N word is to some people the ones who need to get over them selves are the one who are getting their knickers in a twist over the possibility of it not being used in this context. Considering how unimportant it is to the story, I don't see the problem.

AD,

You are absolutely wrong.

In both of your examples you are removing the words in question from a context where the inherent racism is vital to the telling of the story. I know you've had to go to extremes to make your point but of course I wouldn't support either of those changes.

The world is offensive, but that isn't an excuse to go around offending people if you can avoid it. The world is also very violent, but people on the whole avoid being violent if they can.

In the context of the name of the dog, the potential for offense from such a minor detail is pretty great, which makes it in my opinion a good candidate to be quietly changed. Peoples usage of words changes. If in an alternate reality the dog had been called 'C**t Flaps' and since the 1940 those words had adopted the offensive nature they hold today, then I'm pretty sure most people would think.. fair enough, call it Rover. If it was the name of a major character or they had been flying the Avro 'Ni**er' Mk. 3A or attacking the 'Ni**er' Damn then it would be a lot more difficult. The fact is it is the name of bl**dy dog. I assume you'd be just as hacked off in your quest for absolute historical accuracy if they didn't get the number plates on the 617 Sqn wagons correct aswell?

[500N]

"I said it was linked to mass slavery, which it is.

The etymology of the N word is pretty irrelevant."


Yes, LINKED to slavery, but has been in use a lot longer than
slavery was around.

This is the "Gay" thread all over again.

Nigger, Negro were in use well before slighting black people.

PC BS IMHO.

[air pig]

The dogs name 'Nigger' was the actual code word for the breeching of the Mohne Dam, as Dinghy (after Squadron Leader HM 'Dinghy' Young DFC and bar) was for the breech in the Sorpe dam, so how you can take the word out is a mystery to me, or have you not read the history of Op Chastise and 617 Squadron.

I still believe you have a pc axe to grind, as I said get over yourself, at this point you could be making a fool of yourself. I'm offended that some people that I can think of in this world still consume oxygen but life is for living and is far too short to be on a crusading horse like this. History is history despite the fact you don't like it. I do despise everyone equally until they have proven to me that they are a friend.

500N I'm with you in this, this stinks of pc bulls**t and a load of old shoe repairers.

[Aileron Drag]

" I assume you'd be just as hacked off in your quest for absolute historical accuracy if they didn't get the number plates on the 617 Sqn wagons correct as well?"

.........No, not that pedantic, but you're challenging me. I'd be very cheesed off if they used Halifaxes rather than Lancasters, so -- oh hell, yes, I would object to any historical inaccuracy.

The biggest 'problem' here is that "Nigger" was the code-word for a breach of the Mohne Dam. It is of vital historical importance.

I cannot overstate the argument that slavery originated, as Air Pig has said, in the Arab nations (and indeed the West African - 'negro' - tribes). We - we, the Brits, sailed out in ships and ended the slave trade. WE ended it. The Royal Navy ended the slave trade.

Now, a 32 year old Briton is ashamed that a VC holder called his dog 'Nigger' in 1943.

O tempora, o mores.

[jwcook]

Whats wrong with being offended? (http://www.thatvideosite.com/v/2822)

I think that about covers it.

[Running_In]

Air Pig,

I think and therein lies the difference between you and me, I start from the position of liking people until they prove otherwise, not the other way around.

I do know that the N word was used as a code word, but you could call the dog Rover, use the code word Rover and nothing would be taken away from the Story. Like I've said before, unlike ADs examples where the offense caused by the word was part of the story. If Wg Cdr Gibson had named his Dog Ni**er because he was actually a massive racist then it would be entirely proper to keep it's name. He just happened to call it something that was pretty unoffensive in 1940's England, but now actually would upset a lot of people.

500N,

You are of course correct, but in the year 2013, Ni**er and N*gro are quite offensive. The US Senate (I think) recently removed the word 'Lunatic' from US law because it's usage has changed and it is no longer appropriate. Also, where I grew up in Yorkshire there used to be an workhouse for 'idiots' among others. It was more of a legal term in the way that 'special needs' might be used nowadays. I can't think many people would think it was ok to officially describe people with mental handicaps or a low IQ Idiots in 2013 because it was considered ok in 1800's Yorkshire.

[air pig]

Probably a 32 year old with little experience of life, who is destined to be constantly disappointed with people.

The term 'lunatic' came from the observation that psychiatric patients, if they manifest increased symptoms it is usually during the period of a full moon hence the term 'lunatic'. Thankfully we now have far better treatment today than at the time of Bedlam. Just work in an A/E department at the time of a full moon.

[Running_In]

Ha ha, Air Pig, now you're just getting personal! I've got just enough life experience thanks, I joined the RAF 10 years ago and I've been a busy boy since.

Aileron Drag,

I'm absolutely not offended that Guy Gibson chose to call his dog Ni**er. When he did that, it wouldn't have been offensive. If he had lived in 1940's rural Georgia then I would find it distasteful. but I doubt it points to anything even slightly sinister.

Also, if someone was writing a history book then of course the name of the dog would be important.

But this isn't a history book, this is a film, produced to tell a story to a mass audience. Most people in the world haven't read the history of 617 Sqn. If Peter Jackson does release a new Dambusters film then what do you think people would talk about if the dog was named 'ni**er'? The heroism of the boys on the raid, of the bloody dog?

Like it or not it would upset a lot of people, and considering it is only the name of the dog a lot of people wouldn't get why it wasn't just changed. The worst part of it is, it would associate the use of the N word with the RAF in the minds of a lot of people.

[Aileron Drag]

In a film set in Yorkshire in 1810, I would have the Manager calling the inmates "idiots".

Can you imagine the gent in his 1810 starched collar referring to the inmates as the "special needs" group.

I absolutely despair at your, frankly, pathetic ideas of political correctness; at your contempt for the history of your country. You and your fellow-travellers are truly our new enemy. Bah!

You disgust me - off to bed.

PS - just read that you are RAF. Do you not KNOW how many ops you've been on? Sorry the recruitment standard has dropped so low.

Good night.

[Running_In]

AD,

No one is making a film about 1810's Yorkshire, and yes of course I would have the manager calling the inmates 'idiots' in that kind of film.

I would have a slave master on a slave ship calling his cargo 'Ni**er'.

Just not the dog in a remake of this particular film.

[500N]

Running In

Like people are offended by the word "Black"
yet I come back from up north where they use
"black", "white", "whitey", "full blood" and
half caste" without a thought - and that is
from Aboriginal mouths !!!

I am sure blacks in America use similar terms.

Apply the rule to all and I might think about it.

Oh, BTW, I don't use the term nigger anyway
because it doesn't describe anything in my life.

[Aileron Drag]

B*gger off Running In.

[Running_In]

Good Night AD, I'd have to go upstairs and check my number ones.. but of course that's only the ones I can tell you about!

500N

Again, I'm not from a back ground where people hold their tongues and I don't work somewhere where people hold their tongues either. I'm not expecting to go through life not being offended either.

There is a big big difference between people private conversations and a film intended for mass consumption. A film about Operation Chastise is not going to be a gritty urban drama. It is most likely going to be along the lines of 'isn't it breath taking what these young men and the people who supported them achieved' and showing the reality of what they went though. I think that bloody-mindedly insisting the name of the dog not be changed would make that the most memorable part of the film. Most people would just think that the guy who led the Dambusters was a racist. They are not going to go home after the film and fire up google and research cultural attitudes to the N word in 1940's Britain.

[500N]

RI

"Like it or not it upset a lot of people, and considering it is only the name of the dog a lot of people wouldn't get why it wasn't just changed."

A lot of people ? Name your source because I have never seen
any ref to research.


" The worst part of it is, it would associate the use of the N word with the RAF in the minds of a lot of people."

That is called HISTORY - FACTS. What is wrong with it being
associated with the RAF ? FFS, it was a different era, WGAF
why it was used, it was used.


"in the minds of a lot of people"
Only those who know the history of 617 / Dambusters.
95%+ of kids wouldn't even know what the Dambuster's were
and might even scratch their heads if WWII was mentioned.

[Running_In]

I don't need to find a source to say that the N word is considered to be a very offensive word by a lot of people.

Again, because it is not a documentary. It is a feature film. It is ok to tweak minor details if it adds to the experience.

by 'in the minds of a lot of people' I meant the millions of people who don't really know too much about 617 Sqn but do know that they want to go and see a war film made by a famous director.

[NutLoose]

Running In, next tome you are near the Church in Witney, look up the Spire at the monkey for me and wonder why.

[Running_In]

Nut Loose. I was told it had something to do with a former bell ringer?

[NutLoose]

I believe it was frightened by people, escaped from the fair ran up the Spire and fell, the town added it as a guilty gesture. That's what I was told when I lived there.

The other one is

On top of St. Marys church on the green is a monkey climbing real high. It is said that the church used to use a monkey to ring the bell and it has been built as a tribute to him. Stand with your back to the Leys and look up. You will see him. But beware! the graves to the left of you is the graveyard of hundreds of bodies (behind the metal gate in the middle of the wall, with no recognition plaque!) that died of the black plague.

[Running_In]

I'm joining the dots, but if you're saying Witney used to have a black man who rung the bells and they put a monkey on top of the spire then I don't have a problem with that.

[NutLoose]

No what I am saying is there are various different tales, because the story has been changed over history to suit the time. And the true facts can be lost.

still better than the Hartlepool monkey, they hung that one as a French Spy

[Running_In]

My contribution to this discussion is all based on the very narrow context of what to call the dog in a potential remake of the dambusters and whether or not they should use the name on TV when they show the original film.

I don't think they should use the N word in either case, unless the film is on TV after 9pm.

I'm not talking about pieces produced for historical accuracy. I'm not asking for the facts to be lost in history.

[althenick]

All
I hate people that try to re-write history no matter how small the detail. The Dog's name was NIGGER - deal with it!

Low Observable
(I am getting married in March, a marriage that was illegal where I live until the late 1960s) and overt social discrimination.

I notice you're location is "West Wessex" - Cornwall or Devon I presume. If that is the case then I wish you all the best for the forthcoming nuptuals with your Sister/Mother/Daughter/Sheep* - Just joking and I hope you aren't too offended ;)

As for me - Being a Porridge Wog and as such has paid more Hommage to Bacchus tonight than was wise. I shall be mopping up the Alcohol with a Jockistani National Delicacy - Known to all up here as a "Darkie's Walluper Supper"

*Delete as or if appropriate - I think polligamy is legal down there?

Oh and BTW - If they do remake that Brilliant film then in the interests of PC I suggest they call the Dog "Digger" - A pretty inocuous name I think with only a slight possibility of upsetting the Ausies - Nah scrub that!

[PENKO]

I do wonder who is most upset by the N-word. Or by the omission of said word! Most people in the world will understand the choice NOT to name the dog Nigger in the new film. It will only be a small minority who would really argue to keep it in...or out for that matter.

[flighthappens]

The name of the dog is insignificant compared to the significant achievements of the boffins and aircrew in enabling and executing the raid.

The movie, like it of not, needs to make money. Why would any sane producer jeapardise this for an insignificant detail. Yes I do understand it was the code name, but it could have equally been marbles, Timmy, John, tennis racquet, whatever. That's the whole idea. Pick an insignificant word disassociated with the plan to not give the game away.

Maybe the people getting their panties in a twist could invest their own time putting the money and talent together to make their own movie, then they can call the dog whatever they like.

[violator]

My, what a great advert for our armed forces: people taking time out of their lives to justify using racist language, and calling those who disagree pathetic.

If you're so hell bent on historical accuracy, do your best to understand the full context behind the UK's involvement and leadership in mass slavery. How one can somehow shrug this off as 'contextual' or 'of its time', then get on a po-faced high horse when someone suggests that racist language is a bad thing is beyond me.

[NutLoose]

It was not deemed or meant to be a racist slur in it's time context, simply viewed as one now.....

I still don't see people jumping up and down about it's use throughout Blazing Saddles and they are used as a slur..

Or does comedy make it alright?

[teeteringhead]

The biggest 'problem' here is that "Nigger" was the code-word for a breach of the Mohne Dam. It is of vital historical importance.
... exactly so - and of course the WT message is never changed or censored. So -. .. --. --. . .-. it was and -. .. --. --. . .-. it remains.

Does this mean it's OK to offend Siggies and AEOs and even the odd pilot - comme moi - who is fairly fluent in lines and spots...... ;)*

*[Smily denoting I'm attempting to be facetious and lighten the mood]

[Running_In]

Comedy does make it all right if it's done properly.

[Wizzard]

Like this...


Chris Rock - Black People VS. Niggaz (Bring the Pain 1996) - YouTube

[PENKO]

Maybe they should name the bitch 'Nigga'.

[just another jocky]

I have to admit (and bear in mind I've completed 2 tours on 617 Sqn) that in the context of a mass audience directed film like this is, the actual name of the dog or the codeword are pretty low in the priority list when compared to the importance of just about everything else in the story. I think the only justification for maintaining absolute historical accuracy by using the dogs name would be to explain the use of the word as the codeword for the successful breach. The 2 must go together otherwise the audience would be left wondering why such an offensive word was used. But as neither of those are that important, I don't see the issue with changing the name to prevent too many focussing on a relatively unimportant fact. There are enough members here and enough documentaries/articles etc where the exact details are recorded that it wont get lost in history.

And why can't we have discussions with opposing views on here without it all getting a bit too personal?

JMHO.

[Cobra92]

Ok, I'll bite.

Just to advise you all, not all black people in the U.K. call each other N*****, in fact most hate and despise this term, and I am happy to say current most people of all colours and creeds share this view. I am well aware that some American Rap stars became successful and wealthy by exploiting this term in the 80's, this does not make it acceptable in today's society on this side of the pond. This week, another iconic actor has sought to exploit the term in his new film no less than 30 times, and has openly exploited the inference that he can use it, but white journalists cannot. Shame on him, but he is wealthy enough not to care. All of the examples of so called acceptability of the term seem to feature American comedians or films, can you see a trend emerging?

Commentators on this thread are correct when they state that this word was the dogs name, and codeword for the successful raid on the Mohne. As other commentators have stated, these are but two facts, in a mission with a huge number of facts.

Consider this. I have adjacent to me a DVD - a documentary made to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the raid. It includes eyewitness accounts, interviews with the survivors who took part in the raid, as well as an extensive reconstruction of the raid using computer graphics and current ( at the time) aircrew. It runs for around 156 minutes, and nowhere is the name of the pet, for that is all it was, featured, or any of the codewords for a successful raid. Does that detract from a successful story for the masses? At the same time, a computer simulation was launched, with links to the current 617, and supported by them. Does anyone remember a clamour to mention the pet's name then?

Where the term emerged from or it's history is irrelevant to it's use in the original film.

Althenick, what concerns you most, the historical correctness of the story, or the freedom to use any phrase or term you choose, when you choose? Are you prepared for others to promote your most hated terms?

500N seems to have the most clear view on the impact of this term on an audience of sub 25 year olds. And remember, to that age group, the RAF simply consists of handlebar moustaches, goggles and stiff upper lip accents.

[Photoplanet]

Whether currently viewed as right or wrong, I think most of the people viewing this forum will agree that it is a matter of historical fact. That fact concerns one of the most historically significant wartime events of the last century. I am 41 years old, and a Sergeant in today's RAF..... I have a 'dark' and somewhat practical, military sense of humour....

The word 'Nigger'' is a historical word, derived from Negro, as in black..... Whilst a historical origin for this word is contentious, I think it is vital that we remember how words meanings and associations have changed over the years...

How many of you have felt so happy and gay on a Friday afternoon...?

After a heavy night on the vino, have you ever woken up feeling Queer?

The modern interpretation of 'old' words can lead to confusion.... Some of these words are still in everyday use.

Sometimes, these words are taken in offence by third parties, without the original participants being aware of the giving or receiving of such offence.

To Deny Nigger his name is close to the suggestion of the denial of the holocaust.... both are facts of the Second World
war......

[althenick]

Althenick, what concerns you most, the historical correctness of the story, or the freedom to use any phrase or term you choose, when you choose? Are you prepared for others to promote your most hated terms?

Cobra92
Excellent question - I am Scottish, like most people I can take the Banter and a few insults ie Porridge Wog. We call the English Sassenachs and the Welsh Sheep Shaggers. If it is said in a jocular Manner then fair enough.
In the '70's we had a Comedy Program over here called Love thy Neighbour - It was extremely racist even by 1970's standards but was also very popular. I suppose this was the case because a fair amount of Afro-Carribeans, Pakistani's, etc were filling up the country even though at the time unemployment was spiraling. I am not trying to defend this - it was wrong. but that was the prevailing attitude.
Now here we have a bloke who I do not beleive for a minute was racist but he called his Dog the N word why? Because at the time it was not regarded as racist. As kid in the '60s We had story books like "Little Black Sambo" My own Grandmother used to make up bedtime stories for myself and Siblings One of them "Kellar Mcginty and Yaki the Paki" had actually been modified (by my parents request) to "Kellar Mcginty and Yakifeet"
In short I dont think we should be changing History for the sake of PC otherwise where would it end.
The SNP (AKA the McNazis - My own name for them) Tried to get the History Curriculum taught in schools to infer that Scotland stood alone until the Americans came into the war in 1941. But hey-ho thats the problem with Nationalist, be they Scottish, British, German or whatever. They dont like something like fact to get in the way of them spinning a good line to the people.

Sorry for Rambling

AL

[N2erk]

There must have been a shift in the thread-wind cause there seems to be a bit of thread drift. this is my contribution;
1. the Dam?darn busters is on Youtube, all glorious 1:59:48 of it,apparantly in original format.
2. is the stbd acting creature in post 21 rated higher than that to port, as the letters on its chair are bigger

[Photoplanet]

From "Running In"


***************
Photo Planet,

Usage of the N word has changed to the point that it is about up there with the most offensive words you can use. It has fallen out of common parlance so it would be difficult to suggest to think of a scenario where you could use it innocently and accidentally cause offense unless you were spectacularly naive.

Also, no one is denying that the Dog was called Ni**er. It was called Ni**er, I don't dispute that. What I have suggested is that in 2013 it would absolutely not be appropriate to call the dog Ni**er in a remake of the Dambusters because of the offense it would cause to a great number of people.

The story is that the man leading raid was an emotionally repressed, brilliant 24 year old who had a very strong bond with his dog. It was killed before he went into action and out of affection for it he included it's name as a code word.

The name of the dog is irrelevant, if it was called Digger, Nigsy, Rover, anything, the telling of the story is the same. Just with out the massive hot potato that is using the N word.
***************

You know what? I would prefer it if there was no remake of the film "The Dambusters"... as no remake is necessary. The facts are properly represented, their achievements correctly apportioned. The fact that we, the British, by our combined endeavour with our allies, defeated the Nazis, who weren't too keen on the Jews or the Negros, or the Poles, all of whom were represented with honour and glory within the Allied Armed Forces.

And, if the director Peter Jackson has quite finished with his Hobbits, maybe he should consider leaving this piece of British history well alone.....

[BBK]

Photoplanet

If you think changing the name of Guy Gibson's dog is akin to denying the holocaust then maybe you need help! I was going to write that perhaps we could all agree that a film that pays tribute to the heroism of the Dambusters was a good thing but clearly that consensus isn't about to happen.

Meanwhile back in the real world away from the insular Daily Mail reading, UKIP voting planet some of you inhabit, the 'N' word is highly offensive and would/could easily be changed without detracting from the real story which was that of a daring raid undertaken at extreme risk to the aircrew involved.

By the way I watched the recent BBC documentary narrated by Martin Shaw and he made the point that some of the original film was itself inaccurate in parts. For me it doesn't matter if the story is told in an effective way as long it conveys the undoubted bravery of the men of 617 squadron.

BBK

[NutLoose]

Simple solution use the word and as I think C4 did, put a warning at the start the film contains words used in a historical context and not intended to offend... Job done

[500N]

Well said Nutloose.

And if anyone is offended after reading that, IMHO, tough.

[Running_In]

What I find funny is that the same people who are taking the.. "well if you're offended, tough" line are the ones who are going out of their way to be offended by something so innocuous.

Whatever they do I won't be offended. If they call the dog the N word in the end then fine, that was it's name after all. If they don't, then fine I absolutely see why they would make that decision.

I'm still surprised by the lengths some people will go to find offense. I've got to say, in my experience the worst offenders in the outrage / how dare you offend me camp are rarely the oft mentioned 'PC brigade', it's usually the ones in Uniform who can't see the irony of them getting their knickers in such a twist.

[Pontius Navigator]

I am presently reading the Bulldog Drummond omnibus. The last two books have used both N words in their traditional and derogatory context. I have heard no clamour for re-issued books to be censored.

In context these stories bear evidence of attitudes of the time. That is entirely different from the simple, and contemporary, naming of a pet.

[pkam]

I recall a few years ago on an American game/quiz show Whoopi Goldburg got her n*ickers severely twisted and stormed off stage because the answer to a tea (drink) related question was Plantation. Does this mean that any word used during the slavery era is forbidden?

[Courtney Mil]

Wow! You guys must have had one hell of a boring Christmas and New Year if you need to dig this old PPRuNe argument up again. It's just a dog.

[Case One]

I'm all for sticks and stones however:

I imagine that this film will be on world wide release and introduce an enormous number of (ignorant) people to the Royal Air Force and Great Britain's efforts during the Second World War.

If the objective is to achieve the completely undeserved vilification of the late Wing Commander, (and by association, the RAF in general), by a huge number of admittedly ignorant people, then may I suggest that not changing a dog's name will be an extremely efficient way to achieve this.

Of course one could claim some kind of minor "moral" victory in standing by one's principles and not changing it. But wouldn't it be better to try to educate some of the masses rather than encouraging them to give the entire subject a wide berth?

Who knows, they may even feel more inclined to vote for greater defence spending. :rolleyes:

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

For what it's worth, I think that the inclusion of the dog is almost irrelevant. Other than intimating that the Sqn Boss liked his dog so much that the codeword for success was the dog's name, it adds little to the story. Not enough - IMHO - to include the dogs actual name; that said, I'm glad that the original film was not censored, but I think that is a different matter.

My suggestion would be for Gibson to have a pet camel and for the codeword for success to be 'HUMPED'.

Duncs:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

HUMPED ... that's being sexist now Duncs :E :ok:

[Cobra92]

Althenick,

Happily, I think this particular thread has run it's course, and I feel that the consensus has also moved in the right direction. I feel you will disagree with that view straight away. I have to address some of your points!

"In the 70's, we had a program over here called Love thy Neighbour". Really? :D
Where do you think I am, Mars? Would that be the Love Thy Neighbour with Jack Smethurst, and Rudolph Walker? (not to mention Nina Baden Semper). Makes me wanna 'Mind My Language'.

The show was introduced as a light hearted approach to difficult issues arising from people of different cultures having to learn to live together, but an approach where the bigoted Smethursts views were exposed to ridcule, whilst the wives looked on in quiet disbelief. It was not directly because "a fair amount of Afro-Carribeans, Pakistani's, were filling up the country. In many of our big port cities, various immigrants have been here for over 150 years. In your own words - get over it.

The key points are that the name of the dog and the code word for a successful strike on the Mohne Dam were Nigger (the codes for the Sorpe and Eder anyone?). That is not going to be deleted. Accept that attitudes have changes, will continue to change, as society moves onwards. The story will be told over and updated for new generations to marvel, but they will not dwell on a pet's name.

[US Herk]

"In the 70's, we had a program over here called Love thy Neighbour". Really?
Where do you think I am, Mars? Would that be the Love Thy Neighbour with Jack Smethurst, and Rudolph Walker? (not to mention Nina Baden Semper). Makes me wanna 'Mind My Language'.

The show was introduced as a light hearted approach to difficult issues arising from people of different cultures having to learn to live together, but an approach where the bigoted Smethursts views were exposed to ridcule, whilst the wives looked on in quiet disbelief. It was not directly because "a fair amount of Afro-Carribeans, Pakistani's, were filling up the country. In many of our big port cities, various immigrants have been here for over 150 years. In your own words - get over it.

And we had 'All in the Family' with Archie Bunker - one of the best and longest running shows of the time.

I think it is a universal human theme to address how best to adapt to changing social circumstances.

Could we get away with that show today? Not on your life. And yet, sadly, that, in my view, is far worse a statement than the fact we had the show in the first place. :sad:

PC is not about integration or acceptance, it's about intolerance of those who claim to be preaching tolerance for those they view as not using their lexicon. I heard it once explained as, "The idea that one can pick up a turd by the clean end."

Despite what the PC brigade would have you be brainwashed into thinking, one can be perfectly tolerant and accepting and generally a good human being towards his fellow man and still use words however he so chooses. Once again, what I mean with my words is mine, not yours, to decide. Intent is that which is in the mind of the speaker, not the ears of the listener.

PC is the first step towards having a Ministry of Truth. The next step is the thought police.

[Pontius Navigator]

For what it's worth, I think that the inclusion of the dog is almost irrelevant.

I disagree. The dog is an essential part of Britishness at the time. It is a good old-fashioned British movie with no love interest. The dog is a good substitute.

The dog was tragically killed, immediately before the raid yet Gibson was able to put his feelings aside and concentrate on the job. Callous, unfeeling, or simply an inspiring example of leadership that winning the battle came first?

The dog allows various levels of allegory; its name is an historical fact but other than that irrelevant.

Digressing slightly, one our sqn we had a chap called Woody. My son in law has a dog called Woody. Will woody become a non-word in due course?

[LowObservable]

It is a good old-fashioned British movie with no love interest. The dog is a good substitute.

Cue banjos...

[El Grifo]

If you want to watch an excellent movie which is full of creative and positive use of the word "Nigger" then ceck out Tarantino's lates offering "Django Unchained"

No mealy mouthed, beating around the bush nonsense there !

Check it out.

El G.

[BEagle]

They could easily have remade the film without ANY reference to the scabby mutt's name or to the actual codeword.

But that would have had the UKIP idiots fulminating in their beer.

[CoffmanStarter]

Open letter to Mr S Fry and Mr P Jackson ...

Dear Mr Fry and Mr Jackson,

I wish to volunteer my pedigree Black Labrador for the forthcoming remake of the Dambusters Film. He is twelve years of age, energetic and good at learning script/lines. He's very comfortable around RAF Aircrew, but will admit to a slight "hang-up" with Chinook helicopters when one bounced into his exercise area when he was a puppy !

He will happily respond to any "name" you choose to use for Gibson's Dog ... we know him as Harvey (named after the famous Brewery here in East Sussex) ... but he's not sensitive on such matters.

Hope to hear from both of you soon.

Casting Couch picture attached ...

As you can see he would be ideal for Crew Room scenes :ok:

Best regards ...

Coff.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/BAR3YG9CEAA8kAH_zpsc9a31d35.jpg

[El Grifo]

Yep, exactly like that !!!

[Aileron Drag]

BEagle,

UKIP.
Idiots.

....sorry, don't get the connection. Please explain.

[Warmtoast]

I used to clean my shoes with this until Kiwi renamed it "Dark Tan". With either name it did a good job.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/KiwiNiggerBrownBootPolish_zps4bba144e.jpg

[NutLoose]

Yup, similar to post office red another colour consigned to the history books..

[El Grifo]

You mean you cleaned your own shoes ???

I had a man do that for me :cool:

[teeteringhead]

Used to get this in Singapore ....

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/ism/collections/graphics/darkie_tooth_paste.jpg

... it has now apparently become ....

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq297/solidghost_2010/darlie_double_action_toothpaste.jpg

[langleybaston]

The PC thing could spread:

how about

niggle

niggler*

niggling

dark

darkness

darkenning

darkly*

packer*

packing

chin

chinny*

* are very dangerous to say out loud on public transport or in the bar.

Joking apart, I revisited Woodhall Spa yesterday: memorial, Petwood Hotel for bar snack and a look in the squadron bar. The dog thing does seem very insignificant and I cannot think the Chastise crews would have given a stuff about the dog's name. The code word is a bit different, that is rewriting history rather severely.

Just get on and make the film!

[Brian 48nav]

IIRC your Archie Bunker was based on 'our' character, Alf Garnett, the cockney loudmouth in 'Till death us do part'.

I seem to remember the TV Room in the OM was always heaving when the programme was on, but maybe because everyone wanted to get the best seat before 'Top of the Pops' featuring Pan's People (:D:O ) started!

B48N, (UK Herc)

[BEagle]

...'Top of the Pops' featuring Pan's People...

At last this thread has moved away from that wretched mutt and on to something worth considered discussion!

Sue Menhenick was my favourite....:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Just for you then BEagle ... :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/sue_menhenick_700px_zps9796544e.jpg

[teeteringhead]

Or at the time ....

http://www.panspeople.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/pans_people_sue_menhenick.jpg

[Tableview]

A letter to 'Time' magazine once criticised a contributor for using the word 'niggardly' in an article. And it wasn't meant to be black humour!