Helicopter Flight Time

[MightyGem]

Just found this in the CAA's "A Guide to EASA Rules Effecting Helicopter Pilots":

FCL.010, Definitions:
"Flight time helicopters" means from the momement a helicopter's rotor blades start turning, until the moment the helicopter comes to rest after the flight and the blades are stopped.


Anyone else picked up on this?

[hihover]

Isn't that what it was under JAR?

Tam

[Helinut]

I haven't been keeping too close an eye on the ever-changing admin rules in all the changes.There seems little point, since they seem to change again every few months. However, at some point in the not too recent past we seem to have moved from the old "when it first moves under its own power until rotor stop" into this new version.

I am contemplating the effect of these changes, particularly in the context of flying school operations. Early time students presumably still spend forever between engine start and the first lift into the hover. If this is now "flight time" it must have considerably lengthened the average flight time to get a licence, and make it even less feasible to do the course in even anything approaching the set down minimum.

Have maintenance flying hours been aligned with these changes? I could imagine that there might be scope for a disguised price-hike on charge-out rate for some.

In a non-flying school context, does everyone include into flight time sometimes significant periods spent at flight idle? That would certainly cost some types of European operations dear?

[hueyracer]

Maintenance uses Airtime ("Skids Off the ground to Skids On the ground")...so no change there...

But you´re right: They are constantly changing their definitions...

[MightyGem]

Isn't that what it was under JAR?
No idea. :O

I've always used the flight timer on the aircraft.

[the beater]

Under JAR, I always log the crew time as the time from when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of takeoff until the rotor blades next come to a stop.
This means that if, for example, you taxi for takeoff at 0900, land at 1050 and disembark the pax and then taxi to the compass bay for a compass swing shutting down at 1200, then that would be 3 hours crew flight time.
If, however, you taxi to the compass bay at 0900, return to collect pax and then taxi for departure at 1010 and then shut down at 1200, that would be a crew flight time of 1 hour and 50 minutes.
The aircraft flight time would be the time that it spent with the skids (or wheels) off the ground.

Simple;)

[ShyTorque]

As an operator of a wheeled u/c helicopter, I always add on the estimated ground taxying time where appropriate when logging personal hours flown. The aircraft hours for the tech log get copied to the minute via the w.o.w. controlled data computer, which is interrogated during or after shutdown. So unless I fly to and from helipads, my log book hours show a few more minutes than the aircraft tech log hours.

Looks like folk in my position can now add on a few more minutes each trip (not that I'm hours grabbing; it really matters not a lot after thirty years or so).

[Helinut]

Does anyone who is an EASA fan know why they decided to go through the hassle of such a change? Was there a substantive reason or did they just do it because they can?

Is there some sort of record that a stranger could look at fairly easily (bearing in mind that I have a life)?

[paco]

I believe it used to be from lift off until the blades stopped turning

Phil

[misterbonkers]

good news for those hour building in a Bell 47 then!

We spend a good 3-4minutes on the deck before flight so my monthly hours should go up nicely now...!

[jetgas]

Is it right to log more time ?:= than you log in the A/C Tec log

[Hughes500]

Jetgas

I think you will find the answer above.

manufacturer uses skids off to skids on for component times.
Captain for your log book is different, rotors start to turn until they have stopped. Means in a 300 in a strong wind you could have boiled the kettle before the blades have stopped !

[ShyTorque]

Audit of Pilots log book
Is it right to log more time ? than you log in the A/C Tec log

Simple answer = Yes. Ask The CAA.

A helicopter is effectively flying once the rotors are moving air. It matters not whether or not the wheels are in ground contact.

[Aucky]

Does anyone who is an EASA fan know why they decided to go through the hassle of such a change? Was there a substantive reason or did they just do it because they can?

Not sure, but many would argue that when the blades are turning you are (or should be) in command of it, whether on the ground or not, and should an accident occur you would ultimately be responsible, so it's only fair that your logged hours in command reflect that. Personally I think it's a fairer way of logging time in command.

[noooby]

Hughes500, you want to be careful about your statement with regard to manufacturers and component times!

Last time I looked at a Robbie flight manual (R22Beta) it said that engine start to engine stop was to be regarded as flight time, in other words whatever the hour meter says, and that if you had a collective switch fitted, then your flight time is the hour meter + 10%.

Anybody close to an R22 flight manual able to confirm that this statement is still in there somewhere? Many many moons have passed since I last looked at a Robbie up close ;)

[212man]

Does anyone who is an EASA fan know why they decided to go through the hassle of such a change? Was there a substantive reason or did they just do it because they can?

JAR FCL-2 had the same definition, but the CAA chose not to adopt it and maintained their "from the moment the helicopter first moves for the purpose of flight until the blades come to a stop" definition. EASA Part FCL is part of EU Law, so the CAA can't make autonomous exceptions any more - if you saw some of my recent e-mail exchanges with them, you'd know what I mean :ugh::ugh:

anyone who is an EASA fan

I hasten to add that I am not a fan!

[topendtorque]

Anybody close to an R22 flight manual The aircraft Maintenance Release is the place to look, filled out by the LAME as per the instruction here (http://http://www.robinsonheli.com/manuals/R22/R22MM_3.pdf) from the Maintenance Manual

Hmm, don't know if that link worked as below.


http://www.robinsonheli.com/manuals/R22/R22MM_3.pdf

[Hughes500]

noooby

I was refering to proper helicopters
R44 uses a lever datcon for its overhaul so therefore they must be using skids off skids on !

[JimL]

This has been discussed many times before. There are a number of definitions of 'flight time' each of which is tailored towards its use in the applicable regulation. The three main uses are:

1. to establish the hours for continuing airworthiness - which is wheels up to wheels down;

2. to establish the hours for qualification in licensing terms - which is usually regarded as stick time; and

3. to establish the basis for responsibility and flight and duty times - which is as defined in ICAO Annex 6.

With respect to the 3, States look to ICAO to set the definition and that, reproduced from ICAO Annex 6 Part III is as follows:

Flight time — helicopters. The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.

Note 1.— The State may provide guidance in those cases where the definition of flight time does not describe or permit normal practices. Examples are: crew change without stopping the rotors; and rotors running engine wash procedure following a flight. In any case, the time when rotors are running between sectors of a flight is included within the calculation of flight time.

Note 2.— This definition is intended only for the purpose of flight and duty time regulations.

States, in their basic regulations, should differentiate the three uses for the very reasons that have been discussed in this thread (which repeats a discussion from other threads in PPRune).

Jim

[noooby]

Hughes500, if you were referring to "proper" helicopters, might I suggest you change your name ;)

LOL

topendtorque, thanks for the link.

[Hughes500]

noooby

think they are a very proper helicopter compared to Frank's products

[Pittsextra]

This used to wind me up when I did my PPL - I'm not sure if it was just at the flying school I used but I must have paid hundreds of pounds just warming the oil on the first flight of the day...

[Helinut]

No problem now. It all just counts towards your licence minimum hours :suspect:

[Francis Frogbound]

Had an argument with our Quality Manager over the old definition. He couldn't understand why tech. log times were skids off wheels/skids off to wheels/skids on and crew times took the full works into account, eventually our FOI had to put him right.

I flew for a NS operator who tried to take taxi and deck times out because all the pilots were running at 798 hours on their rolling 365 day totals and taking out RR time would give them another 50-60 hours a year (or quite a few pilots when you spread it out over a whole company)

FF

[Helinut]

New ways of abusing the system will no doubt follow new definitions. It is the way of the world.

[Dennis Kenyon]

Just to add another notch to the debate.

Except for Robinson, I've never used any system for helicopters other than as follows and as mentioned earlier.

Pilot log book times: Rotor blades turning.
Tech log and aircraft/engine log times: Skids off to skids on.

Just bear in mind that should there be any kind of ground incident with rotors turning ... it will be the pilot at the controls who is deemed responsible. So as I have argued before. Pilot responsible ... pilot logs hours as Captain.

Oh and just a tit-bit from too many years in the business.

Be wary of any legal action that emanates from the use of a Datcon or similar instrument's recording of flying time. Yonks ago, a court decided that a claim based on a mechanical instrument reading (in that case flying hours) must fail unless the subject mechanical instrument had been inspected and declared accurate by the weights & measures department of the UK Customs & Excise. The same system exists for every car forecourt fuel delivery pump. Years ago we used to see the Customs men on the forecourts with their funny brass containers checking the delivery accuracy of the pumps.

Happy days I say! Regards to all. Dennis K.

[garsr1]

Could anyone clear this up for FAA license. I have always used the hobbs meter, weather it was a rev or maintenence. Over the years I keep hearing this debate and understand once that starter is depressed you are responsible, but flying 109's for a number of years there was only a maintence hobbs. I logged that so if the FAA looked at my log book and the aircraft flight logs would match, its the more conservative route less likely to get into trouble if something were to happen.

I don't need to flight time for any requirements, but would like to know if the blades are turning it is considered under its own power.

Thanks