Restored Lanc

[just another jocky]

Saw this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20886684) on the news today.

Really hope they can get it flying.

[airborne_artist]

The RAF might need to use it on front-line ops if they can get it airborne.

[newt]

Brilliant news. Well done to them all:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Wensleydale]

While it would be great for the Panton brothers to get Just Jane back into the air, I would be loath to see her compete for funds with the BBMF Lanc. Surely the best way of preserving flying hours on the two Lancs is to preserve Just Jane as the superb ground exhibit that she currently is and then to make her air-worthy should anything untoward happen to BBMF such as further budget cuts etc.

Having said that, to see the two Lancs flying in formation would be amazing - I just think that the cost of achieving that, both in terms of hard cash and flying hours, may be too much and by preserving Just Jane for now may give us a single flying Lanc in the skies of Lincolnshire for a longer period.

I will add that the museum that houses Just Jane at East Kirkby is well worth the visit and the work to support the memory of the crews of Bomber Command that the Panton brothers have already achieved is superb. Thanks, Chaps.

W

[Tinribs]

I second the opinion on the museum having made several visits.

It is easy to find and well signposted

Turning in is safe

There are trees for dog shade in the FREE car park

Entry fees are reasonable

The site is well laid out with areas of special interest clearly marked.

There is a remembrance chapel for those who come as a relative memorial

In the hangar you can get close enough to touch real aeroplanes

If you time it right you can get to see the Lanc start and taxi

The staff are pleasant with no us/them tendancy

Prices for sale items are reasonable

The tea shop is excellent value

My only adverse comment is that the price for a taxi ride in the Lanc is a bit steep but I suppose they must charge what the traffic will pay and upkeep must be pricey. The rides are mostly booked up so others must think the prices are fair. It would make a fantastic old fogies gift

[Ripline]

I agree totally with Wenslydale. Like many others I've had a taxy ride in Just Jane and if she returns to the air (and I'm torn on this) I doubt that the opportunity to experience a bit of what it would have felt like to start an operational flight would still be available to others. Amazed at how light the flight controls are for such a large non-servo aircraft. And sitting between 4 Merlins....:D At the moment she is a unique experience: once airworthy the GP couldn't be allowed to freely roam around the airframe and try each position? If this airframe was flown and lost it would have so many repercussions for this museum.

Again, go and visit this museum. It's well worth the trip, huge value for money and a tribute to the dedication of the Panton brothers. I'm pretty sure that one of them was cutting the grass as we exited the Tower.

The experience will never be forgotten by either myself nor Mrs.Ripline. It was our 25th wedding present to each other.

Ripline

[Onceapilot]

Ripline,

The flying controls are light because you moved them with no air loads. In flight I think you might find them somewhat heavier.
Cheers.

OAP

[Could be the last?]

As with the Reds, I thought BBMF was fully supported by MOD/RAF and not flown on donations/charity? Hence why there are no sponsorship markings on any of the airframes!

[Tiger_mate]

Air Shows including RAF sponsored events (Cosford/Waddington/Leuchars) pay for the BBMF and the Red Arrows, and anything else the RAF provide. A flying display is less expensive than a static display; fiqure that one out!

[soddim]

Despite the news item, Just Jane is a long way off being airworthy again. If she is ever restored I think that many will regret losing the opportunity to get close and enjoy the noise and smell. It will also add a considerable cost burden to the little museum to maintain her, fly her and provide air traffic, crash cover and maintenance and the GP will have to meet this one way or another. There might be a necessity to open on Sundays - that it is closed is a testament to the religious strength of the brothers views.

My visitors have enjoyed both BBMF and East Kirkby but most have enjoyed the latter more because they can get up close, feel the atmosphere, see plenty of memorabilia, visit a typical control tower and round it off with a snack or meal in the 'NAAFI'.

The flying Lanc should remain in the professional hands of BBMF - at least at the moment Just Jane would be within reach as a replacement should any misfortune strike the BBMF machine.

[fantom]

BOAC has this running in the History dept..

[herkman]

My understanding is that this airplane is creeping towards a change of the main spar. A change is an expensive exercise and has been already done on the other airframe.

There is also the complexity that Jane would have to be registered as a private airplane with the other aircraft being held on charge by the RAF.

Would love to see it happen

Regards

Col

[NutLoose]

Ahhh but there may be a chance to fly in a Civi one which with the RAF one there isn't, be nice if they could do what the Canadians and Collins Foundation does

[742-xx]

Superb museum - really can't say enough good things about the place, but it's not just the place, it's the whole atmosphere, the whole experience.

Really worth a day out. Hats off to all concerned. Long may it reign.

Whatever the outcome best of luck to everyone concerned, I really hope it works out for them.

[airborne_artist]

For me there's not such a huge incremental benefit. We have one that's airworthy (as have the Canuks), so a second, while lovely to see isn't a game-changer.

[Mike7777777]

Is it not in the public domain that there is an intention for Just Jane to fly when PA474 can no longer do so?

I visited the East Kirkby Aviation Centre in the 1990s when the airfield lights were switched off during night runs. Complete darkness bar flames and glowing carbon blasting from the Merlin exhaust ejectors. Pyrotechnic events in years gone by were spectacular (like fireworks but better).

The very best of British to the Panton brothers, I hope Just Jane can fly again.

[NutLoose]

A little known fact I read somewhere, after the war they originally wanted to buy one of the last Halifax's as their brother flew in them, but their father vetoed it. So they later got the Lanc, sad fact was that no complete Halifax was preserved and those that are in museums now are either replicas, crashed item or crashed items restored.

[GeeRam]

Ahhh but there may be a chance to fly in a Civi one which with the RAF one there isn't, be nice if they could do what the Canadians and Collins Foundation does

Would be nice..... but, I suspect that it can't happen as it would surely have to comply with the EASA rules regarding passenger a/c..?
Given that the DC-3/C-47's that were operating PAX flights stopped because of the need to comply, I can't see a Lanc being able to do PAX flights in the UK.
If this was feasable, or even currently for the past decades under CAA regs, the operators of B-17G 'Sally B' would have been doing this for years as a means of raising money (as happens in the USA)

I've also seen reported by someone that has connections with JJ, that they have enquired about continuing taxi rides in JJ once she is airworthy, and the CAA have said yes.

[thowman]

While it may be expensive to get JJ back in the air - after the Vulcan effort has raised a lot of money to keep that in the air and once in a museum there could be a beneficial effect for the Lanc - especially if they give them use of all the emails they have gathered over the years of people that have donated to the Vulcan - once they finally stop raising funds for that (and not competing for funds).

[tucumseh]

Just saw this on the News. Wonderful. I'd love to know just how much of the original instruments and avionics it is allowed to retain. The very first auto pilot I ever worked on was that of a Lancaster, which we maintained for an air museum. Mk 8 I think. The test rig took up half the instrument shop.

[NutLoose]

GeeRam there are changes going through at the moment that may allow Permit aircraft to be used commercially.. So fingers crossed it gets allowed.

[fallmonk]

Am surprised the new Dambusters movie wasn't approached with a view to using Just Jane. They get a genuine Lanc (especially handy for close up's)and they get the funds to make her airworthy. Win -win
Altho obviously she would need adapted for the bouncing bombs.And maybe they didn't want to do this.

[pontifex]

Whilst not wishing to douse peoples comendable optimsm and keenness to get her into the air, please consider this: when Charles Church bought the Strathellan Lanc in 1987, the CAA required him to have it rebuilt by the original constructors (i.e.Avro/ BAe at Woodford). I saw it often there in the hangar and was able to inspect it minutely after it had been disassembled. It was in fantastic condition with virtually no corrosion on any important piece of the structure. It was a pity the hangar roof fell on it and destroyed it before it could be rebuilt. Also, in 1986, Woodford phoned the BBMF to tell them that they had found a couple of pieces of steel when clearing out an old shed which they had identified as castings for lanc mainspars prior to milling. They were quickly nabbed and stored in the BBMF store hangar at Woodhall Spar. Without those two bits of meatal the BBMF machine would no longer be flying as they were used when notional fatigue life expired. What chance do the Pantons have to repeat that sort of luck or to overcome CAA caution? I hope they can, but I doubt it.

[54Phan]

That is correct, Nutloose. Their brother was shot down and killed on the Nuremburg raid March 30-31 1944.

I would definitely like to visit that aerodrome, having heard nothing but good things about it.

[NutLoose]

BAe have looked at the spars apparently and gave them the ok.

As for close ups for the new Dambusters movie, these are one of the 10 new replicas being built

http://dambusters.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/005.jpg?w=750&h=422

Bigger version

http://dambusters.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/005.jpg

http://dambusters.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/003.jpg?w=750&h=422

http://dambusters.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/002.jpg?w=750&h=422

The other one on the right we think is a scale? Wellington Bomber for the movie..

From

Peter Jackson | Dambusters Weblog (http://dambustersblog.com/category/peter-jackson/?blogsub=confirming#subscribe-blog)

[Sloppy Link]

Nutloose, I too have heard that fee paying passengers may be taken in Annex II aircraft, not certain how close it is.

[54Phan]

That certainly does look like a Wellington on the right hand side of the picture, looking at the wingtip and the undercarriage visible. Looking at what is visible of the engine cowling, it almost looks like a Wellington II. (Or could that be old age creeping up on me?)

[NutLoose]

Sloppy details are here, it's under consultation at the moment and I believe the HAA and CAA are holding a seminar in Feb to discuss it

Though I cannot find the commercial use mentioned under the current version


Proposed Amendment to BCAR A, CAP 553 and BCAR B, CAP 554 | Consultations and Responses | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1350&pagetype=90&pageid=14109)

54phan, it's also got the trademark aerial on the roof.

More details on the progress

Lincolnshire Aviation Heritage Centre (http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/about/NX611-Just-Jane-Return-to-Flight.htm)

[NutLoose]

and it provides a framework that could be used to support limited commercial operation of ex-military aircraft in the future.

From

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2537/Annex%201%20to%20Invitation%20to%20Comment.pdf

[54Phan]

Ah, I see that as well, Nutloose. It looks elongated, but is definitely "Wimpyesque" kit. (Not to mention many other aircraft of the period.) Still looks like a Merlin nacelle to me.

[pb643]

I attended a talk many years ago by Brian Goulding, I recall him saying that the PA474 was using modified Shackleton spars. The BBMF had secured sufficent of them and other spares to keep the aircraft airworthy virtually indefinitely. (Assuming no mishaps of course)

I would be happy to be corrected if that is not the case.

Phil

[pontifex]

pb643

I have to say that taht is news to me and I was intimately involved with the outfit for three years. Hope you are right though.

[Pontius Navigator]

Don't lose sight of the reason for the restoration. It is as a memorial to their brother as much as anything else. The last thing they would intend is to get it ready to replace the BBMF Lanc sometime in the future.

[acmech1954]

One of the guys I work with was involved with the respar of the Lanc, done at St Athan by teams from Abingdon. He says that the spars were modified Shack items. he also said that the origonally the skins were attached to the spars with PK screws, presumably a quick and easy fit with no expectation to be flying more than a few hundred hours let alone some 70 years later.

[Pontius Navigator]

pb, I seem to recall a stack of 'girders' in the shed at CGY.

[mike-wsm]

tucumseh - I'd be most interested to hear more about autopilot - for example was it 400Hz and magamps? - or what? - Thanks. :ok:

[giblets]

Apparently, civilian taxi rides in Just Jane will be able to continue to run should Just Jane ever get her permit to fly, and will continue to be a revenue stream to help with her upkeep.

[clicker]

Herkman, she is on the civil register as G-ASXX

G-INFO gives the status as "Registered" and also there is an entry, presume for engine runs etc?

Application Type Received Date Expected Date of Processing
CAA PERMIT ISSUE 05/01/2011 03/07/2013

[Not Long Here]

The brothers story with JJ:ok: made the 6 o'clock news on TV1 here in NZ last night.

[GeeRam]

GeeRam there are changes going through at the moment that may allow Permit aircraft to be used commercially.. So fingers crossed it gets allowed.

So I see, fingers crossed indeed.

I believe the inability to earn from PAX rides was one of the prime reasons why the CWH didn't bring their Lanc over to the UK for a tour some years back, which had been a very real possibility.
Maybe, if things change then, and it can happen, and JJ becomes airworthy, CWH, might be yet be tempted to bring there's over for the chance of a formation of all 3 airworthy Lancs ............ now that would be a sight :D

The rule change if it happens could also be a potential fund generator and savior for B-17 Sally B as well.