Aircraft details

[111KAB]

New to this forum so please be gentle + if I have posted in the wrong thread mods please feel free to move.
Seeking some information if possible on a Monarch flight ...... on July 3rd 2012 flight ZB959 was due to leave PMI for BHX at 10.45. Due to a technical problem the flight was delayed (cancelled?) and eventually landed at BHX on July 4th at 14.15 indicating a delay of some 26 hours.
Is there any way of finding out the registration of the 03.07.12 plane to see if was actually repaired and flown the following day and the registration of the 04.07.12 Monarch plane that landed at BHX on 04.07.12? I understand both (same?) plane were Airbus 321's.
Many thanks.

[DaveReidUK]

Is there any way of finding out the registration of the 03.07.12 plane to see if was actually repaired and flown the following day and the registration of the 04.07.12 Monarch plane that landed at BHX on 04.07.12? I understand both (same?) plane were Airbus 321's.

The aircraft in question was A321 G-OZBP.

[ConstantFlyer]

Hi there, 111KAB, and welcome to the forum.

A good place to search for such information is on a website called 'libhomeradar' - just google the name and you'll find it. It can take a bit of time to get to know how it works, and it is, of course, only as accurate as the information put into it.

However, it gives the following information for the MON 958 BHX-PMI flight on 3 July 2012: G-OZBP 321, and MON959 PMI-BHX flight on 4 July 2012: G-OZBW 320 (dep. PMI at 1136hrs local).

G-OZBP then returned from PMI to BHX later in the day (dep. PMI at 1254hrs local) as flight MON959B, then flew BHX-MAN as MON915P before doing a MAN-VCE-MAN. On 5 July it did return trips from MAN to Faro and Dubrovnik.

I can't say if that's correct; I'm just reporting what is in the system. (Departure times do not relate to actual flight times; more when the information about departure was put into the system.)

[111KAB]

Thanks both - your help is appreciated as is your welcome ConstantFlyer.

[walterthesofty]

I take your still after a pay out, why dont you just accept aircraft have problems which cannot be forseen and get on with life , I for one hope you dont get a cent...**** happens

[wowzz]

It would be enlightening to know why you are asking this question 6 months after the event?

[111KAB]

walterthesoftly - may I respectfully suggest you restrict your comments to matters you have knowledge of as to why I posted. :=

wowzz - I am acting for a client who has been unable to prove he was on said flight (the airline are seeking "absolute proof") and other than the airline records it seems there is no way of proving a particular person is on a specific flight.

[BOAC]

Immigration may have passport records?

[Skipness One Echo]

I take your still after a pay out, why dont you just accept aircraft have problems which cannot be forseen and get on with life , I for one hope you dont get a cent...**** happens

It's "you're" not "your". You're a 44 year old adult, try harder. Also you missed the "it" in "take it". How can you be any form of engineer with such atrocious attention to detail?

When you say **** happens, most of it comes from you. Now get back under your rock sweety because he didn't even mention compensation and yet here you are baiting and trollling yet again. Why don't you get on with your life?
walterthesoftly - may I respectfully suggest you restrict your comments to matters you have knowledge of
He can't, he's never posted in here once on any matter that wasn't having a go at someone.

[DaveReidUK]

and other than the airline records it seems there is no way of proving a particular person is on a specific flightBoarding pass?

[Hotel Tango]

I suspect that boarding pass has long disappeared. Some are already discarted in seat pockets! However, DaveReidUK's suggestion is also a good tip (which I practice) to those who don't already do this: always keep your boarding passes, for a year at least.

[Evanelpus]

wowzz - I am acting for a client who has been unable to prove he was on said flight (the airline are seeking "absolute proof") and other than the airline records it seems there is no way of proving a particular person is on a specific flight.

I would have thought that airline records would be considered absolute proof.:hmm:

Think on this, imagine you are shown to be aboard an aircraft by virtue of the airlines records (which would mean that you have also cleared secruity and immigration) and you are arrested for something at the same time the flight is in the air. Can you imagine what :mad: the airline would cop over this? I'm afraid it's a two way street and this sounds like the airline are trying to welch for some reason.:=

[wiggy]

Please don't shoot the messenger but whilst the existence of a boarding pass may be helpful it only proves the individual checked in for the flight, not that he/she actually boarded the aircraft........At least I gather that has been HMRC's "POV" on several occasions :uhoh:

[Hotel Tango]

Quite correct wiggy, but I think it's still not a bad idea to hang on to them, for your own records if nothing else.

[DaveReidUK]

I would have thought that airline records would be considered absolute proofI think the OP's point is that the airline are defying his client to provide independent evidence that he was on board the flight.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd have thought the onus would be on the the airline to prove that he wasn't on board.

But then again, if I was a lawyer, I'd have told my client he was an idiot for chucking away his boarding pass. :O

[srobarts]

Just a thought, if the passenger checked in bag(s), the flight could not depart without either the passenger or off-loading the passengers bag(s). No record of bag(s) being offloaded, the passenger must have travelled on the flight. QED.

[DaveReidUK]

Just a thought, if the passenger checked in bag(s), the flight could not depart without either the passenger or off-loading the passengers bag(s). No record of bag(s) being offloaded, the passenger must have travelled on the flight. QED.

I suspect that's not going to help much.

In the absence of a baggage tag, which presumably would have been thrown away along with the boarding pass, proving that a bag was carried is going to be as difficult as showing that the passenger travelled.

The issue isn't about whether the airline will have a record - they obviously will - but about whether it would be possible to supply independent proof, though frankly I still don't see why that should be necessary.

[Hotel Tango]

The trouble is that we don't really have the whole story here. Is the client saying that he/she flew on a particular flight and the airline has responded (in truth) that they have no such record (from the pax list) of that? In which case it is understandable that they place the burden of proof on the client.

[darkroomsource]

It seems to me that if an airline has a record of a person flying, but thinks that it is possible that the person was not on the flight, it would be a MAJOR breach of security.

They have to do a head count, they get the boarding cards, usually through an automated check in process, they have checked identification, etc. etc. etc.

If a passenger is NOT on the plane, then they have to check for bags, and remove it there were. So when they do the head count, and compare the collected/scanned boarding passes with the manifest, they should be dealing with any discrepancies, otherwise they could be letting someone from another flight onto their flight, or vice versa.

If it turns out that the airline's records are wrong, then the airline could be opening itself up to investigation, law suits, etc.

So how does one prove one was on a particular flight? I suppose you'd need receipts before/during/after to show where you were, as well as credit card receipts for the purchase of the ticket, and the boarding pass, maybe phone records to show you at the layover point, etc. But I don't think you can prove absolutely that you were on a flight, unless you can get passengers who can all vouch for each other...

[DaveReidUK]

Is the client saying that he/she flew on a particular flight and the airline has responded (in truth) that they have no such record (from the pax list) of that?No, we haven't been told anything about what the airline have said, other than the fact that they have asked to OP's client to prove they were on the flight:

I am acting for a client who has been unable to prove he was on said flight (the airline are seeking "absolute proof")I suspect that it's simply a case of an airline, faced with a claim, playing hard ball and insisting that the passenger provides independent evidence of something that the airline already knows to be the case.

Speculating about security breaches, dodgy head counts and incorrect airline records might be fun, but I don't see its relevance here.

[wiggy]

Speculating about security breaches, dodgy head counts and incorrect airline records might be fun, but I don't see its relevance here.

Agreed.

The ticket and boarding pass alone don't help. What might help is other evidence such as cashpoint slips/credit card records showing transactions taking place at either end of the journey on the day in question.

[Yellow Sun]

I suspect that it's simply a case of an airline, faced with a claim, playing hard ball and insisting that the passenger provides independent evidence of something that the airline already knows to be the case.

It is really much more straightforward than that. Investigating complaints and claims costs a considerable amount in time and money so if they haven't provided it you ask the complainant\claimant to provide evidence of entitlement. It's not hard ball; just good commercial sense; it gets rid of the opportunists, time wasters and some of the fraudsters.

[t1grm]

Please don't shoot the messenger but whilst the existence of a boarding pass may be helpful it only proves the individual checked in for the flight, not that he/she actually boarded the aircraft........At least I gather that has been HMRC's "POV" on several occasions

Sorry for the hijack but, as an ex-pat claiming non-residency in the UK (but still submitting a return) I have often wondered about this. I have kept all my boarding passes since when I became non-resident in 2002 (yes it’s a big shoe box). However, since at least half of them are online check ins printed at home or the office, I assume they won’t count for squat with HMRC. It would be quite economically viable for someone looking to avoid a large tax bill, to book 52 LCC flights at off peak times, print the boarding passes, go nowhere and say they were out of the country every week. So what do HMRC accept as proof of being out of the country nowadays?

[111KAB]

Apologies everyone for the delay in responding and thanks the imput - greatly appreciated. As a new 'poster' you always wonder if your question is being asked in the correct manner and if your enquiry, for whatever reason, will upset anyone. With one exception the responses have been great.

The airline in question has asked for strict proof as to the client being on the flight in question. They only had, as far as I am aware, handbaggage. Their portion of the boarding card has been discarded (as many suspected) and they knew no one else on the flight who can vouch for them. The onus however has now been placed on the airline to prove they were not on the flight given that they should have the manifest for the flight plus their handing agent should retain boarding card stubs although there seems to be a lack of instruction on how long these should be retained. This coupled with the 'head count' should resolve my problem. We have produced a copy of a credit card statement showing an airport shop purchase prior to the plane departure and a hotel invoice for a stay the night prior to departure. We have pointed out that even in possession of a boarding card does not mean absolutely that the plane was boarded. I think this is going to rumble on however I will re-visit the site from time to time to hopefully update.

[750XL]

Boarding cards are a thing of the past, the handling agent certainly won't have them 6 months after the flight and there's a chance they wouldn't have any at all. Many airlines/handling agents don't even retain a copy of the boarding pass anymore, KLM E-boarding pass is an example of this.

The handling agent won't have any paperwork from the flight 6 months later but it may be possible to drag names out of the system.

[DaveReidUK]

So what do HMRC accept as proof of being out of the country nowadays? The Inland Revenue always used to accept my Junior Jet Club logbook without question. :O

[spottilludrop]

MON are the best thing that has happened to Brum for ages and are doing really well.
I doubt you will get many here assisting, My experience is they offer first rate customer service compared to others i could mention.

[BOAC]

Have you tried for immigration passport records?

[darkroomsource]

relevance...
if the airline is claiming that he was not on the flight, but their records show he was, then they should be referred for investigation

[DaveReidUK]

relevance...
if the airline is claiming that he was not on the flight, but their records show he was, then they should be referred for investigation Yes - if the airline was claiming that he wasn't on the flight, your observation would be relevant.

But they aren't, so it isn't.