Look inside when very close to touchdown?

[WhySoTough]

Hi all,

I am aware that most of you are experienced Captains and FOs with lots of flight time, and that is why I always come here for advice.
Bare in mind that I am a very new jet pilot that was lucky to get a job.

I am still line training, and find that this technique works for me so far, but looking for input or advice on how bad this habit is.

Because I do not know exactly how the end of the runway should look on flare, and because I am not as familiar as most of you guys with the flare and flying with the seat of the pants, I keep a standard way for now and just put some considerations to weight and strong headwinds or tailwinds.

For the most part I cut the power at 30, and hold the pitch attitude a bit to stop the ROD, final flare is at 20, and somewhere at this point I find that I ALWAYS take a VERY quick glimpse to see my ROD just to make sure I'm on the safe side. I messed up a landing once where I did not flare enough, and didn't even realize it, and developed this habit since then.
I just glimpse real quick, and when I see a nice break on ROD, I see that If I've got a 200/300 ROD I get comfortable and continue to look outside.
Sometimes I let go if I feel like I'm floating, otherwise continue to gently flare.

Has worked like a charm so far.

Just worried that this could be extremely dangerous or something.
Is it okay if I would continue to do this till I'm line checked and feel experienced enough?

Advice me :)
Thank you and Happy New Year to all!

[M-ONGO]

What are you flying?

[WhySoTough]

A320.
Silly of me not to mention that, thanks.

[Isobars]

Do you have a problem with your responsable training captain ? Normal procedure is to communicate with him/her.......

[M-ONGO]

I'm not a 'bus driver but this may help.

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/444765-a320-flare-technique.html

I agree wholeheartedly, the trainers should be asked really. Surely you've done some jump seat observation rides? Or at least observe the attitude when operating as PM?

I never look inside when 'very close' to touchdown. All mk.1 eyeball and feel. (Visual or cat 1 obviously...)

[WhySoTough]

Isobars,

No not at all. They told me to continue doing what I was because it worked for me.
Just one of them told me to stop looking inside fully when I told him, others said its normal in my early stages.

M-ONGO,

Yes but tbh the jump seat doesn't help with that too much, and I've done PM for 10 sectors.
Surely it does take some time..

[M-ONGO]

Agreed, it's a different perspective. However, you can see how the others operate. Heads out, no doubt. It'll come no doubt! Are you low total time?

[WhySoTough]

290 hours.. :O

[M-ONGO]

Did you find yourself heads down during training out of interest?

[WhySoTough]

No I never looked inside.
Not even here until I messed up that landing. I hadn't flared enough and wasn't aware of it. Had me feeling like crap for a while.
Been doing this the last 12 flights and has worked well..
When I say quick glimpse I literally just check the ROD real quick.

[Blinkz]

I'd not look inside at that stage of the flare. It will most likely cause you issues in the future. On a windy/gusty day you will have your hands full controlling the aircraft, the last thing you will want to do is look inside!

As others have said don't worry, it will come with practice. You will learn the 'correct' view out the window quickly and so whilst flaring will be able to just feel/see if you are high/low or have caught a gust/sink :ok:

[Isobars]

No not at all. They told me to continue doing what I was because it worked for me.
Just one of them told me to stop looking inside fully when I told him, others said its normal in my early stages.

Suggest that if with 290 hrs TT you really have no confidence (here you are asking for 2nd opinions) with the advice your various training captain/s (should) have taken the time to note in your personal training documents, write a short note to your Manager Training passing on the helpful tips from PPRune for his action regarding your personal line training programe......

[Silvio Pettirossi]

Eventualy you will have no troubles judging your ROD just looking outside, meanwile I would use the RA callouts to get a feeling of how things are going. I personaly stop taking glimpses at the PFD at about 200 to 300ft and concentrate only at the outside, remember that the VS indication can have some lag and may not be showing the real ROD at that exact moment.

[NigelOnDraft]

As above, you need to get the habit of judging RoD from the visual perspective. The trouble with looking in "if I would continue to do this till I... feel experienced enough?" is you will not get the experience ;)

In addition, whilst the Airbus RoD is instantaneous, it might fail / misread, but also it cannot allow for Runway slope, which the visual judgement will.

Not even here until I messed up that landing. I hadn't flared enough and wasn't aware of it. Had me feeling like crap for a while.I've got 12K+ hours, A320 command since 2003, and still "mess up" some landings. All my experience means is is I don't "feel like crap for a while" :ooh:

NoD

[autoflight]

I have quite a bit of A320 time and was always keen to see that co-pilots had full oportunity to develop their techniques. In order to become a seasoned operator yourself, I suggest that you gradually find a way to look less at ROD and more at whole runway perspective when so close to the ground.
There may be some other comments re near field view at touchdown, but eventually, by the flare, I viewed the far field less.

[WhySoTough]

Lol Isobars, stop posting please.

To the rest, I really do appreciate the advice and tips.
Thanks a ton!

[seaduck]

Hello gents,

I have about 3500h on the A320 Family.

In my opinion it is important to have a short glimpse inside.
If you have more experience on type, you will most probably not need the rod because you can judge it by visual reference.
What is very difficult to judge, especially at night, is your pitch.
(A320, Flaps 3, crosswind from the left)
You can only check your pitch with reference to your PFD if you fly all types of the A320 Family.

What I would do is to continue with your technique, but I would implement a crosscheck of the pitch. With more experience you most probably will only check the pitch.

Have a good evening,

Seaduck

[BARKINGMAD]

Please don't try this on Rwy 27 at Heraklion when the wind is light-moderate North Westerly.

Everything looks perfect up to just xbove the threshold and suddenly the aircraft is pointing towards the right hand grass, lights and cliff!

Happened to me several times on the 737NGs various and my theory is a gust or rotor off the upwind cliff blows on the fin/rudder surfaces at just the wrong stage of flight and rapid cautious correction is needed to avoid excursion.

I now include it as part of my HER approach briefing, especially to F/Os who are new to the field or haven't had the pleasure of this fright before.

Maybe old lags on this forum can quote other favourite fields where this fin-only x-wind event occurs?

Re screwed up landings, with 42 years flying and 18k+ hours I can and do get the odd one not quite the way I'd like, but hey, who's perfect?

Imagine explaining to der management what exactly you were doing before just before the ACMS recorded a heavy landing or tailscrape and they showing you the relevant handling instructions and asking why did you deviate? Then you may wish you'd kicked this habit earlier................:uhoh:

[bubbers44]

WST, you should be at the experience where you can judge your rate of descent visually looking outside. The only important instrument inside approaching flare is IAS. Ignore everything else and give it a couple glances so you don't get slow.

It has always worked for me and being mechanical on flare using RA and reducing power at a certain altitude isn't good because sometimes you get a wind change very low to the runway and you have to correct for it. Just fly your visual approach touchdown and don't get slow. Make it simple. It always worked for me. Once in a while you get a sinker or a gust so be ready to not let it FU your landing.

I wish I could have flown an airliner with 300 hrs. It took me 5500 hrs. Good luck.

[de facto]

To judge your speed past the 50 ft and avoid looking inside is the FEEL of the aircraft also,as you reach VREF the elevator will feel heavier and it is time to let it settle...

[Wingswinger]

WST,

I'm a 320 TRI/TRE with nearly 8000 hours on 320 series (all variants except the 318).

Honestly, you should NOT be looking inside at the below 200ft except for the occasional glance to check your speed. When visual most of your attention should be outside looking at the RW, TDZ aiming point and the PAPI. Above say, 500ft, you may look inside at the PFD quite a bit but the frequency of that should reduce as your get nearer to the runway. Once below 200ft you should be focussed on the TDZ aiming point and you should not correct the flight path downwards if you get high - you have to accept a long touchdown (but still within the TDZ) or go around. So how do you do it, then?

Well, when on the ILS G/S or PAPI two reds/two whites at about 500ft, note the position of the TDZ aiming point in your windscreen. It should be about 1/3rd of the way up. Keep it there. If the TDZ aiming point moves up your windscreen you're going low - adjust. If it moves down, you're going high - again adjust it. Don't forget to co-ordinate the appropriate thrust adjustments if you're not using ATHR.

If the FD are off, you can use the FPV to check your flight path is -3 degrees when still above 200ft. If it isn't - adjust and recheck the position of the TDZ aiming point in your windscreen.

As you pass 50ft start to look at the far end of the RW in anticipation of the flare. At flare height look at the far end of the RW, close TL and flare (about 2 deg - but not with reference to the PFD). What you are doing regarding TL closure and initiating the flare is fine but remember as you gain experience that adjustments will have to be made to that technique in hot and high conditions.

Does the aircraft you fly have auto RA call-outs at 50, 40, 30, 20 and 10?. If so they should be about one second apart so you can use the cadence to judge your vertical speed towards the TD point and the flare.

You can employ your peripheral vision to help in flare judgement as well. On a standard 45m wide RW the RW edges should be roughly level with your ears at flare height. Obviously this cue will be different on a 60m wide RW and on a narrow RW. It does depend on your sitting height being correct so make sure your seat height is properly adjusted. Too many young pilots sit too low and it doesn't help them.

Finally, I liken the flare manoeuvre to an attempt to fly the aircraft wheels level two feet above the runway. This mental concept has helped quite a few young pilots.

Runway slopes in the TDZ will require a modified flare. If it slopes down, flare very slightly less, if it slopes up flare very slightly more. I can't quantify it. Using the "attempt to fly level above the RW" concept works well.

Finally, this advice is unofficial. You should discuss it with your friendly neighbourhood TC.

You're not Orange, by any chance are you?

HTH,

WS

[Turbavykas]

ROD on A320 probably is INS based but on other aircraft gust near the ground can make it jump up and down.

[shaun ryder]

There's a thread on here somewhere discussing the trashing of a TC Airbus in Kos back in 08. I can't post a link as I don't know how! But here is one from the AAIB copied and pasted for you. Something to do with following flight directors close to the ground..Not a good idea it seems.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Airbus%20A320,%20G-DHJZ%2012-08.pdf