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rodney rude
28th Dec 2012, 21:50
Howdy all.

We all know that the cost of corporate aviation extends well beyond the purchase of the aircraft. It seems the costs associated with operating a jet are charged at sky high rates because they seem to figure that if you can afford a private jet then you don't care about the costs.

I'm curious to hear of any charges you think were above and beyond the call of sanity and reasonableness.

For example
1. On departing the Maldives one morning we discovered we had emptied the box of tissues in the toilet. We asked the handling agent to grab a box for us. Off he went, came back ten minutes later. Cost for tissue box - $80 US. "$80 US??? You are joking!" I said tersely. His response? "Well, I had to go and get them from the office."

2. At a port in England, while tidying up the aircraft post flight, our garbage bag of rubbish was sitting on the steps. The friendly ground handler said "is that your rubbish lads? Give it here, I'll get rid of it for you." He walked some 20 metres and tossed it in a bin. Silly me thought it was just his way of helping out. No! On the bill - rubbish bag removal, $16 US.

3. Another Indian Ocean destination wanted $250 per passenger on both arrival and departure to go into their FBO. So $500 US each. All the other charges were still there - the handling fee, the toilet service fee, water, marshalling etc etc. But, with 5 pax, $2500 US just to go through their FBO office. I used the local airline instead who just bussed the pax to the terminal. Total cost, $700 US, including pax handling, toilet, water et al. To be honest, they weren't very good, but it was a saving of over $3000 US, so I deemed it a success.

Rod

galaxy flyer
29th Dec 2012, 01:26
$250 US in Las Vegas for the caterer (!) to pick up "international" trash because there was no "international" trash disposal at the US Customs building.

Other than that, business jet owners don't care, so I don't either.

GF

Booglebox
29th Dec 2012, 03:18
It seems the costs associated with operating a jet are charged at sky high rates because they seem to figure that if you can afford a private jet then you don't care about the costs.

Correct.
But there are a few providers who cater for those who actually care about costs. In this day and age, they are prospering

dc9-32
29th Dec 2012, 06:53
Simply using the wrong agents. Change and you'll see the change.

westhawk
29th Dec 2012, 07:26
Follow the fractionals and charter outfits. They care about costs.

And not all private and corporate jet owners are beyond caring about costs. In fact many of them got where they are because they do.

westhawk

500 above
29th Dec 2012, 07:40
Galaxy, if I had that "I dont care" attitude towards costs I'd be out of a job. In today's economy, we all have a due care as professional pilots to keep costs within reason.

As Westhawk says, some of our bosses have got where they are by giving a damn.

what next
29th Dec 2012, 08:12
And not all private and corporate jet owners are beyond caring about costs. In fact many of them got where they are because they do.

Yeah, I can see that every month on my paycheck ;) (Just kidding, we do not use cheques any more in this part of the world...)

Bucket
29th Dec 2012, 08:23
£80 quoted to fill our Thermos flask with coffee (about a litre). I decline to say where lest the Mafia send the boys round...

£25 for an UK FBO to book two day rooms; a local telephone call.

I could go on but the fact is we have a responsiblity to watch the costs for the owners/operators and also feed back our displeasure to the FBO's concerned. This rip-of culture will only change if enough people say something at the time.

long final
29th Dec 2012, 08:43
Totally agree that change will only come through action from us. There are, I am sure, some owners who don't care - but I suspect they are the minority. We are paid, IMO, to run the aircraft as economically as possible. We have a standard handling quote form now that is sent to FBO's, if possible at least two at destination, which list everything we would need. That way we can at least pick the best value and have written evidence of costs that can and can not be charged.

Many FBO's now are seriously beyond belief - it's not my money I am spending, though it feels personal that some take such liberty and take the attitude that it's your problem if you complain.

Harmattann
29th Dec 2012, 10:51
This summer flight to EYKA, Lithuania, we get catering for 5 persons (nothing special, just slices of meet, salami, cheese, vegetable and fruits,just snacks),no drinks and alko - for slightly less then 700 EUR, i mean in Munich or Nice i get same catering box for max 300 EUR... :ok:

In Nice for same service - 1st day 80 EUR, 2nd day - 800 EUR, agent said that they mistakenly putted extra 0!

On total amount, which should be paid, it is quite difficult to figure out this kind of mistakes...

Pace
29th Dec 2012, 10:56
Had snow which had stuck solid to the wings as ice from the roots to maybe 10 feet out plus the tail which was too high to see properly.
This was at Eindhoven.
I was later told that 220 liters was the minimum they will despense so that it was we got with a bill for 1000 Euros

Pace

cattletruck
29th Dec 2012, 11:18
Nice to see some drivers acting like family towards the jet owners by taking a stand against the rip-offs. Opportunistic rip-offs are not just limited at biz-jet operators, it's everywhere.

4HolerPoler
29th Dec 2012, 12:30
During a fuel-stop in Anchorage (in the middle of a snow storm) the girls in the back asked for a bag of ice. The handler arrived with a small bag of ice and an invoice for $ 75. Both ejected from the aircraft.

Then there was the crooked Irishman at the Atlantic FBO at LAX (who used to set up colonic irrigations for the hosties) who produced a catering invoice for $ 48,000 for 9 pax (2 services). What a circus!

His dudeness
29th Dec 2012, 13:27
ahhh, the subject I love....

Well, how do you change a handler when he has a monopoly ?

Going where the frax goes does sometimes not work either: they (the handler) are usually only interrested in the bigger client. Happened to me twice in Paris with Signature, they lost my business after almost 20 years (used to be Transair then). I moved to Jetex and shortly after the bloody Netjets turned up there. At least they have 2 seperate entries/exits there.... Paris is a good place to see a cartell working IMO, I´ve asked all of them bout the prices and with on exemption they were within about 30 €...

The ripoff in Russia/KAZ/ and all the tans one can´t avoid. They only thing there is really really check your invoices, they try to sell you stuff one never ordered or had.

mutt
29th Dec 2012, 15:20
In today's economy, we all have a due care as professional pilots to keep costs within reason. The only say that we have in costs is if offered FBO's fuel rather than a contracted fuel supplier. Apart from that, we have zero input into the choice of handling agent or caterer. Makes life so much easier :)

Mutt

thumbwax
29th Dec 2012, 16:08
Sad to hear that someone charged you 80$ for a box of tissue, that is a tottal rip off, since one should cost 5-10$ here in maldives, although i do agree that some services are rather expensive here in the maldives :rolleyes:

Cheers
Thumbwax

galaxy flyer
29th Dec 2012, 16:19
Maybe, I needed to post a "sarcasm" thingie. My office is just as concerned about costs, but keep things in proportion. My example, we'd come empty from Malaga to Vegas to pick-up. Fuel cost: about $36,000! Percentage of "handling" is less than 1%. And that's just using the fuel cost. Face it, most of these bills sound outrageous, until compared to the cost of the operation, in toto

GF

what next
29th Dec 2012, 17:46
Face it, most of these bills sound outrageous, until compared to the cost of the operation, in toto

In _your_ operation! We mostly fly short sectors within Europe. And if every landing produces 1000 Euros in landing and handling fees and another 500 for (ridiculous) catering, then these extras reach 50% of the flying cost...

One day in Istanbul, the handling agent brought the catering and coffee we had ordered to the plane. Then he got a bag of ice cubes out of his van: "Do you also need ice?"
I asked: "How much?" "100 Euros" he said. "In this case, we don't need ice." "Just take it" he said to me, "today it comes for free" (it's gonna melt anyway on the way back to the office...)

rodney rude
29th Dec 2012, 20:44
As the originator of this post I was quite surprised at Galaxy Flyer's comment that boss don't care so he don't care. But I am very heartened to hear that other bosses and therefore other operators do care.

I certainly know my boss does care. I am paid to operate his aeroplane efficiently, safely and at reasonable cost. I go through all the receipts very carefully - at this stage I cannot do much about outrageous costs, but I go out of my way to ensure there are not charges slipped in for services we did not receive, or that there are no extra zeros "accidentally" added. I just hate corporate thievery - so sometimes its more about getting one back at the FBO than actually saving the money.

Some of the posts here about "doing something about it" have given me food for thought. In fact next time we go into the port in England where we were charged $16 US to throw a rubbish bag in the bin, I will write to the manager (who is a great guy) and tell him we won't be using his FBO due to charges such as this. Sure, the next FBO will probably charge the same, but then I will tell them that they have lost my business as well - they will get the message soon.

westhawk
29th Dec 2012, 21:01
If flight crew are looking out for their employer they are looking after themselves. A good enough reason to do what you can to limit the negative effect opportunistic price gouging has wherever possible in my view. Pay it when there is no choice but use what discretionary power you have to maximum effect.

Pay an extra $100 for an FBO to operate beyond normal hours? No problem, fair is fair. Pay an invoice full of nickle and dime ups and extras? Sometimes it's necessary and sometimes reasonable accommodations can be reached. Always let it be known that you appreciate good service and that your continued good patronage is recognition of that fact. Where there is no better choices, sometimes poor business practices on the part of opportunistic business entities must be accepted as a cost of doing business. Any corporate pilot having a decent working relationship with the boss will figure out what the parameters of their own influence and discretion in short order.

I've seen and worked with guys who take the money saving thing to a ridiculous and counter-productive extreme and also with guys who carelessly blow company money as though they were punishing the boss for being rich.

Discretion...

westhawk

galaxy flyer
29th Dec 2012, 21:34
I did post, "SARCASM". We have gone to great lengths to identify savings and act on same. In the US, we buy fuel where it's cheaper or where we can waive landing parking fees. Many FBOs don't charge for small items like ice or coffee when buying fuel, either. We let the lead pax know if a different FBO will save him money for fuel or services. Accounting looks at bills DAILY for "errors" or shenanigans. I'm NOT advocating throwing money away, BUT I'm not telling the Boss his catering is too expensive or no ice because the handler charges $50 for it, no matter how ridiculous it sounds. Once you look at the total cost of operating a corporate jet, the crew can only effect maybe 10% of the total cost. If you reduce it by HALF, you've saved maybe 5% of the bill. Not chump change but optimistic.

If you really want to save, start with fuel planning like the airlines, don't fly at max cruise, but LRC.

GF

rigpiggy
29th Dec 2012, 21:39
At one the locales I visit, the local fuel guy sits at the airport all weekend, and charges a "callout fee" of 150$ for our 5 flights a day. He also charges between 4pm-8am, I depart at 830 but won't call him until 8:01 Needless to say I tanker fuel when able. sAnother station gives us free coffee, and Ice Cream. They also offered me a job chucking bags.

westhawk
30th Dec 2012, 01:57
GF: I know what you really meant in your earlier demonstration of sardonic wit! ;)

TheRobe
30th Dec 2012, 04:05
Something I never learned to do was get the boss used to the big bills like others have. A few nightmare over hauls and inspections, these guys start looking at bigger planes.

Seems I went the other way, roundly beating the NBAA numbers, discounted fuel, deli sandwiches from down the block, landing at airports where the fuel was a buck less then big FBOs. Everyone is tickled, no reason to buy a bigger plane...why should they...packing all seats in a Citation, beating the airlines at their own game.

So you got kids that screw it all up, can't manage to buy a box of peanuts right, getting types in GIVs and Galaxys, where some of the old salts are stuck in Turprops and little jets because the boss is just so happy that we make the little planes ultra efficient.

Kelly Hopper
30th Dec 2012, 07:10
GF.
LRC will save fuel sure but also put hours on the airframe. More maintenance and depreciation of the aircraft value. Which is more cost effective?

His dudeness
30th Dec 2012, 07:19
BUT I'm not telling the Boss his catering is too expensive or no ice because the handler charges $50 for it, no matter how ridiculous it sounds

Maybe a cultural thing, but my bosses like to know that stuff. I tell em that this is an expensive place. Then they decide.
Works wonders for me.
Had the assistant of the CFO come up to me about the raised cost ex certain destinations and could tell em: boss decided AFTER being told the prices to have a friggin cold meal at 75 quid each plus 300 pounds delivery.

Ever since there is a refreshing silence on that front. And those little items aren't questionend any more as well....

glider12000
30th Dec 2012, 08:51
Kelly get your flight planning system to plan for least total cost rather than time or fuel and it should do all the calculations for you.

Dawdler
30th Dec 2012, 18:46
Some years ago I was involved in despatching some "hazardous" material (similar to superglue) all suitably packed in inert packaging, along with the main product onto a corporate jet which which had flown over from Nova Scotia specifically to collect the consignment. The company concerned took no chances of not having the right people on board, even to the point of having brought their own import/export agent with them. At the UK end, the lady at the information desk apologised to to the pilot for having to charge him an extra $30 for something or other. He just waved his agreement to pay what ever the cost was.

What the airport, (South Humberside as it was then called) didn't know that the lack of this product was costing the company around $30k per day! Hence the apparent lack of interest of the pilot in an extra $30 charge. So I suspect that many handling agents "try it on" as other pressures may be affecting decisions as they were on our flight.

LearjetGA
2nd Jan 2013, 10:04
Watch out at Olbia (LIEO) when operating from outside Schengen Area. Waste Bag removal 80 euro per bag! Mandatory...

Make sure you have only one to remove...

Kelly Hopper
2nd Jan 2013, 10:20
Thanks Glider.
I don't need to. I know that if we go high when heavy we slow down putting another 20 mins on a 4 hour flight. That is enough for me to stay only high 30's and get there fast. Besides, my owner cares not a jot about fuel but will argue about a tyre change!
BTW. I'm not getting much change out of £4k for a LTN visit. 3 pages of this's and that's on the bill. Then if you are a screened flight... OMG! :{
KH

Joe le Taxi
2nd Jan 2013, 10:45
On types I have flown, we would always be able to accelerate to cruise Mach at any altitude, (provided we are not above the ceiling for the weight), so I usually go as high as the book says we can (unless we can ride a jetstream up the chuff lower down).

It leads to a huge fuel saving (agreed, no-one seems to care about that), the TAS is the same as lower down in the stratosphere, its smoother, and on the legs we do, it sometimes makes the difference between a fuel stop and not (which everyone cares about).

But if I'm right in thinking you are on the Hawker, I do believe that struggles well before its ceiling?

Samara Rodrigues
2nd Jan 2013, 11:01
I believe that every private jet owner cares about costs. Who wouldn't? Just because one has a jet all to himself doesn't mean he wants to do away with all his money for silly requirements.

While choosing your operator it is imperative that certain rules are laid down. Telling them of the drawbacks of your earlier operator (if you had one or if you have been told of by your friends/colleagues). Nobody wants to give away their money for something that doesn't even make sense. I mean come on, to throw away trash? or a box of tissues for 80 USD? What do they think private jet owners eat? Gold bars?