RAF Lockheed P-2 Neptune

[CoffmanStarter]

Royal Air Force Coastal Command operated 50 odd P2V-5s, designated Neptune MR.1s as a stop-gap maritime patrol aircraft until the Avro Shackleton entered service. I understand they were used for Airborne Early Warning experiments as well as for maritime patrol.

My question ... How good was the Neptune as an AEW/MP platform as compared with the Shack ?

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/207/pics/9_1.jpg

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/207/pics/9_2.jpg

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/207/pics/9_3.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

CS, I recall they were all held at RAF Silloth prior to being returned to the US. The P2V was in service with the RNlN in the 1970s. I guess it might have been quite good. As good as the Shack? I don't know.

RAF Neptune fates (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?11187-RAF-Neptune-fates)

A few picies here too.

Neptunes of Great Britain (http://www.verslo.is/baldur/p2/britain.htm)

[Roadster280]

Certainly better than no MPA...

Sorry, someone had to say it.

[Rosevidney1]

I expect they were quieter inside than the Shackletons!

[caped crusader]

I believe the Neptunes were fitted with the APS-20, the same radar that was fitted to the Shackleton AEW Mk 2s.

As to how good the Neptunes were in comparison the the Shackletons, I reckon it was all down to the quality of the operator, as I am sure Pontious & Wenslydale will probably confirm.

During the Falklands conflict the ex-RAF Neptunes which were operated by the Argentinians were used to try to find our Task Force but I do not think they wre used in the AEW role.

[Pontius Navigator]

CC, provided they were squawking or had 4 contra-rotating turbo props the Shack was the bees knees. Best I had was a pickup at 200 miles and lost contact some hours later at 225.

[reynoldsno1]

4 contra-rotating turbo props - I assume that's a typo :O . I flew a number of times with the Cloggies in their P2's - thoroughly enjoyed it, and yes it was much quieter than a Shack. She was pretty quick a low level too ....

[Pontius Navigator]

Reynolds, at 200 miles? No they were definitely huge turbo props :}

[Pontius Navigator]

the Cloggies in their P2's - thoroughly enjoyed it, and yes it was much quieter than a Shack. She was pretty quick a low level too ....

Towards the end of their life one was doing an air display, possibly at Den Helder, when at approaching 300 kts (I was told) the co-pilot's hatch lifted. The senior officer in the co's seat grabbed it and hung on but I believe the pressure blew the tail cone off.

Not sure how true but a good yarn.

I have also seen a Shack doing 300 kts over the salt lake at Akrotiri. It was trialling the rear crew parachute explosive drogue deployment. I believe it worked but the risk of a live drogue gun in the cabin was assessed as too high.

[Warmtoast]

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/RAFNeptune.jpg

I took this photo at Biggin Hill during the 1954 Royal Observer Corps "Recognition Day". It shows RAF Neptune MR1 WX547 from the Fighter Command Vanguard Flight (1453 Flight) based at Topcliffe in Yorkshire.

Vanguard Flight Neptunes carried out some of the initial Airborne Early Warning Radar trials over the North Sea, but acording to Google they were not a success (see quote below).

By the 1950's, the Royal Navy and RAF had started the development of AEW systems. The Royal Navy ordered the development of an AEW Fairey Gannet, whilst using the AN/APS 20 radar equipped Douglas Skyraider from the US as a stopgap, and the RAF set up the "Vanguard Flight", also known as 1453 Flight, equipped with Lockheed P2V-5 Neptune's. They were not a success, and the flight was disbanded after 3 years. Therefore, the only operational AEW systems in use by the British armed forces up until 1970 were operated by the Royal Navy.

[brokenlink]

Fairly sure there was an ex RAF Neptune for sale in the States a couple of years ago. Owner was hoping that someone in the UK would buy it and put in on the airshow circuit. Not aware of what happened after that though. Any ideas?

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Chaps ... all good stuff ... much appreciated :ok:

I guess it goes to show how important the British Aircraft Industry was in our economic recovery post WII.

On paper two broadly similar platforms in terms of performance ...

Neptune Vmo 278 Kts, Op Range 1912 NM's - Shack Vmo 260 Kts, Op Range 1950 NM's.

It could be argued that the Neptune could have been more than a "stopgap" solution until the Shack entered service with the RAF. In pure financial terms buying "off the shelf fit for purpose" Neptunes would have been the cold hearted sensible option ... but yet the 188 Shaks built by Avro, along with other post war British aircraft designs, provided much needed employment.

If we discount the macro economic argument for a moment ... it would be really good to hear from anyone who has flown both types to get their perspective on both platforms.

It's interesting to speculate that had we gone down the Neptune route the RAF could well have taken the P-3 Orion for the maratime role. I know we then get in to the Nimrod debate following the commercial export failure of the Comet.


Best regards ... and Happy New Year !

Coff.

[Roadster280]

Where did the money come from for all this?

188 Shackletons? That's rather a lot of 27L V12 engines burning a boatload of (highly refined) gas.

There must have been a couple of thousand aircrew for that many aircraft, not to mention airfields and all the support infrastructure.

Shacks were contemporaneous with V-Bombers, Canberras, Hunters etc, of which there was a thousand or more.

The RAF's budget must have been ridiculous in those days. Same for the Royal Navy with a dozen or more capital ships and escorts aplenty, not to mention the FAA.

[KING6024]

I can remember a Neptune at Bovingdon sometime in the mid 1950s,Shackletons were occasional visitors also,as Northwood was the Coastal Command HQ in those days, I guess Bovingdon was used as a communications airfield.Did Coastal Command have its own Communications Flight? The Metropolitan Comm. Flight was based at Bovingdon in those days.
Colin.

[Pontius Navigator]

Roadster, in the early sixties it was said the V-bomber cost £1M. It was our most expensive aircraft. Accounting for inflation that is now less than £40 MILLIONS. Now I don't know how much the Defence vote has increased in that time.

I do recall around 1971 a VSO, possibly AMP, was appalled that the RAF Manpower bill accounted for over half the RAF Vote. Which is more important? Could you draw an arbitrary division between manpower and equipment?

Of course not long after we were shedding lots of transport crews -Beverly, Argosy, Britannia, Comet, and then Canberra.

[LowObservable]

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15716.msg160089.html#msg160089

Gibson's new book "Battle Flight" might be of interest.

[CoffmanStarter]

I understand that of the 188 Shacks built only 8 were exported to South Africa ... so thats a lot of metal built for the RAF ?

[CoffmanStarter]

Not forgetting that a Mk4 Shack was proposed ...

http://avroshackleton.com/mark4_files/image002.jpg

Coff.

[Rossian]

......in those days there were Shack squadrons in Changi, Aden,Malta,Gibraltar. 3x squadrons at Bally kelly plus ASWDU, 3x sqadrons at Kinloss plus MOTU, and 2 squadrons at St Mawgan. Approx 15 basic crews of 10 men each plus execs and assorted gash bodies; plus all the groundcrew (until centralised servicing came in) and you're well on the way to your 2000 bodies. T'was a different world then, innit.

The Ancient Mariner

[Pontius Navigator]

Just to chip in, 20 V-bomber sqns would have about 2000 aircrew not including station, groups and command staffs. I would guess the other flying commands and air forces would have had similar numbers.

In 1961, not counting the small number of aircrew at Cranwell, the initial aircrew officer training intake was around 100 per month of which around 80 were pilots.

Given chop rates and deaths and assuming aircrew on 8 year commissions (some were on 5, others leaving at 12, 16 and 20) there would have been about 6,000 - 7,000 into productive service at that time. Aircrew above JOs were either wartime assimilated aircrew or Cranwell output.

When a Nav course graduated in 1991 they were told the RAF aircrew requirement was just 1,000.

[Warmtoast]

KING6024

I guess Bovingdon was used as a communications airfield.Did Coastal Command have its own Communications Flight? The Metropolitan Comm. Flight was based at Bovingdon in those days.

It was indeed. Both Coastal Command and Fighter Command Communications Squadrons were based at Bovingdon in 1956 when I was there as a member of FCCS.
Devons and Ansons were the standard workhorses for conveying C-in-C's, AOC's and others to the various stations in their commands.
Metropolitan Comms Flight used to be at Hendon and became FCCS I believe, but am not sure when the move to Bovingdon took place.

[chevvron]

Metropolitan Comms Sqdn was at Northolt after Hendon closed. Fighter CCS and Coastal CCS were both at Bovingdon, joined by Bomber CCS when Booker closed as an RAF station in about '63, then the three amalgamated to form Southern Comms Squadron.
Last Neptunes I saw were operating off the Shetlands in Sep '72, when I was briefly stationed at Sumburgh as part of my ATCO Cadet training. They seemed to operate a patrol which took them southbound off the east coast of the islands, and never called Sumburgh approach, whilst Nimrods always did. I presume the Neptunes were Norwegian or Dutch.

[Samuel]

The RAAF also operated Neptunes. Twelve of then if a recall correctly, replacing Lincolns.

[Andu]

The RAAF operated three marks of Neptune, (P2V4/5 and SP2H), 36 airframes in total. The P2vs entered service with 11 Sqn in the early 50s (1952-53?) and the sP2Hs with 10 Sqn in the early 60s (1962?). The P2Vs were before my time, but people who'd flown them told me they were not much more than Hudsons on steroids, but the SP2Hs were pretty capable ASW platforms in their day. They had a novel 'fuel dump' system - lighting up the two JP3s mounted outboard under the wings. This reduced fuel on board about as fast as any modern day fuel dump system!

[herkman]

Andu I am sorry that your information is wrong.

The RAAF operated 24 Neptune aircraft

2 P2V4 that were modified on the line by Lockheed to P2V5 standard to almost the same as the other 10. These were modified over the years and all guns removed and the MAD stingers and jets installed. These were operated by 11 Squadron.

10 Squadron took delivery of 12 PV5F in 1960 I believe.

Regards

Col

[AR1]

In terms of capability, the Argentinian Naval Aviation Neptune was still capable of assisting their aircraft in destroying our shipping. On top of that it** was costing us a lot of money in the mid 80's. Night after night it would trundle inbound before descending and disappearing off RADAR at the point we scrambled. Did we ever manage to get to it?

** Well as I remember it was a Neptune, but must stuff I've read since said they were retired by 86 so I can't confirm.

I recall doing the practice loading of Deep Sea Sunshine onto them (Dutch operated) down at St Mawgan. Close up, they looked astonishingly old and the thought of them lugging that sort of stuff around made me nervous.

[Blacksheep]

The RAF's budget must have been ridiculous in those days. We were fighting a war. A cold one perhaps, but very real for all that. We didn't get a chestful of medals for it, but we were defending the nation directly - which is what the armed forces are supposed to be for. :rolleyes:

[CoffmanStarter]

ARI ...

How ironic as I believe the Argentinian Neptunes were ex RAF !


Best ...

Coff.

[Pontius Navigator]

Coff, remind me who sold them an aircraft carrier and escorting destroyers? And some old bombers.

Then our cousin sold them a fair bit of useful kit too as did our old enemy.

Really the arms trade has a lot to answer for or we should embed auto-destruct mechanisms in all the kit we sell.

[Fareastdriver]

I believe one of the ex RAAF Neptunes is still flying out of Perth. An old mate of mine is involved with it.

[CoffmanStarter]

PN ... sadly $'s are the currency of Satan at times ... as is the £ :(

Fareastdriver ... any chance we could get at bit of handling info from your mate ?

Best

Coff.

[Andu]

Andu I am sorry that your information is wrong.

The RAAF operated 24 Neptune aircraft

Col, you can see where I went wrong. I didn't read the small print. See: ADF Serials - RAAF A89 Lockheed P-2V Neptune (http://www.adf-serials.com.au/2a89.shtml) I just counted the number in the left column.

[John Botwood]

As Shack crew in the 50/60s. we found our frquent task was to watch a Neptune on one.

[ancientaviator62]

On my first Herc squadron we had an Air Engineer who had been on Neptunes.
My recollection from chatting to him is that due to the complex nature of the
engines flying on one was not exactly an uncommon occurrence . Must be someone out there who can enlighten us.

[CoffmanStarter]

Here is a pic of the SP-2H Neptune 0708/2-P-112 in the Air Naval Museum placed at Puerto Belgrano Naval Base, within Comandante Espora Air Naval Base. I understand that on May 4th 1982 this plane, when piloted by Corvette Captain Ernesto Proni Leston, detected the destroyer HMS Sheffield and gave her coordinates to the Super Etendards armed with Exocets :mad:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/1470734_zps9012219e.jpg

Here is a pic (©Wayne Mutza) of WX512 in storage at Silloth North England in April 1958 for delivery to Argentina.

http://www.verslo.is/baldur/p2/british/WX512_Lotow_256.jpg

So does anyone know if the Argies operated both P-2 and SP-2H variants or were P-2's converted ?

Coff.

[tornadoken]

OP's Q was which was best MPA, Neptune or Shackleton...and the A is of course a lemon. RAF believed long loiter over water was better on 4 than on 2; Liberators, which with ASV had closed the "Gap" in May,1943 and thus won the War, had to go in 1946 (or be bought and supported with scarce $), so we retrod Lancs. Pesky RN kept niggling for Maritime Air and even to Sandys/1957 found some Ministerial support for the evident logic (copy USN, please). The only reason feeble RAF procurement budget, 1948 took on Shackleton MR1 was that Tudor's failure meant something had to go into Chadderton as bridge to Vulcan. Avro and the entire military procurement process dribbled the programme...and then came Korea.

Under MDAP US loaned us (I have 52; others say 53) P2V-5/7 and part-funded 69 Shackleton MR.2. US did that (UK/France) in other cases of evident duplication (Noratlas:Packet), taking the view that any kit was better than Front Line emptiness. After July,1954 UK's priority into US taxpayers' pockets lapsed, so we dribbled Shackleton MR.3 as we returned MR P2V-7s. Much Coastal kit was US, common to P-2/3, either free on MDAP/MSP, bought, or licenced (e.g Gulton Industries Autolycus "sniffer"). W-34/Mk.101 Lulu NDB was taken under Project 'N', USMC custody at St.Mawgan/Macrihanish/Sigonella, shared access with RNethAF/USN, for inter-operation under SACLANT. There would have been no point in incurring expense/distraction of AWE to do a UK-solo NDB ex-fixed airfields. We did so from 9/2/1973,WE177A(NDB) for deployment at sea.

A to Q is: if you accept 4 beats 2, then...there's your A. If not, then inasmuch as more P2Vs flew longer with more Users, then that must have been "better".

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks Tornadoken ... that all sounds logical :ok:

Although I might be pushing my luck ... it would be good to get some info on the handling of the Neptune from some of our guys who flew it ... and perhaps the Shack.

Happy New Year all ...

Coff.

[SASless]

due to the complex nature of the
engines flying on one was not exactly an uncommon occurrence


But....the plus side is being huge Piston Radials....you could still fly on parts of one!:ok:

[Rossian]

.....I watched as a Dutch Neptune came in to land at Bodo with his trailing HF aerial still out. He'd been struck by lightning and the aerial was welded to the bottom of the tube which held it away from the airframe. The lead weights which held it out bounced as it touched down and flew forwards in a great arc and the aerial wrapped itself around the prop. There was a very impressive screech as the engine stopped in a heart beat. Followed by a few days off.

The Neptunes used to have vey light whistling noisefrom the props as they taxied and a gentle moaning noise from the wheel brakes (air powered?). A vey evocative noise if heard on a dark night lying in one's pit in the mess at Kinloss. Mostly gratitude that it was someone else getting airborne at that time of the morning rather than me.

The Ancient Mariner

[herkman]

The situation in Australia is as follows.

A ex USN P2V7 which was brought down here to conduct air fire fighting. My understanding is that it is now stored with engines run fairly often at an ex war time airfield at Cundernan, about an hours drive from Perth. When I last saw it, it had been painted in very smart fire fighting colours. There is talk that it will now be converted back to military standards.

HARS own at least three Neptunes again both are dash seven models, one is ex RAAF 10 Squadron and flies often. The other is ex French navy and was given and salavaged to HARS. It was flown back to Australia and I believe is currently being brought back to air worthy.

They have another one which is incomplete and I believe is used for spares.

The RAAF has an early one serial I believe 302, whilst it is complete needs lots of work to get it to display standards. If it is 302 then it started life as a P2V4 in company with 301. Both these aircraft were converted to P2V5 standard partly, but I believe the flight deck area was not converted.

There is another 10 Squadron aircraft, complete but in poor condition ar Dubbo, it is up for sale with little interest mainly I suspect because of the cost of removal.

Regards

Col

[typerated]

Am I right in thinking that the RAF Neptunes did not have the additional jet engines?

I am trying to think what part of the flight would you shut down what?

Jets just used for take off, climb out and any high level transit? then shut down. Props running all the time I guess?

[herkman]

To my knowledge no RAF aircraft were fitted with jets. All of our early ones went back to Lockheed for the upgrade.

Jets were mainly used for take off and I have heard figures of 600 gallons per hour which means you would not fire them for two long.

Regards

Col

[typerated]

Wonder why Jato/Rato packs where not used then - save carrying all that weight and drag around all flight!

[EW73]

Herkman,
When I did my training at RSTT Wagga Wagga back in the late 60's, I definitely recall the ex 11Squadron P2V7 parked up there, the one that was engine run often by the trainees.
I'm sure that aircraft had the jets fitted!

[Andu]

The jets could be used if high speed dash was required, for example, (I'm assuming), to get to a target before it submerged. But, as stated above, it came at quite a cost in fuel. I understand (from bar talk) that, in the event of a failure of one of the radials at high weights, the jets served a double purpose - providing much need extra thrust, but just as importantly, shedding weight by expending all that unwanted fuel. Very, very quickly.

[herkman]

Yes all of the dash 7's we got came with the jets new. The dash 5's went back to Lockheed one at a time for retro fit.

Regards

Col

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks all for your contributions ... a great little thread :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Wonder why Jato/Rato packs where not used then - save carrying all that weight and drag around all flight!

Gravity I suspect.

I think there would be no benefit gained if the packs were retained after the aircraft got airborne. Jettisoning the packs would damage them irreparably and also create a hazard on the ground.

The PR value of watching a RATO take-off would be negated by the PR value when the RATOG returned :)

[Warmtoast]

The PR value of watching a RATO take-off would be negated by the PR value when the RATOG returned http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Again one of my ancient photos taken at a c.1954-55 BOB diplay at Biggin shows that the USAF were not too worried about RATO being kept on the aircraft after use.
ISTR the RATO rockets made a heck of a noise; but what were 1950's air shows without lot's of noise and smoke etc!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/USAFGrumannAlbartross-BOB-BigginHil.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

Remember Zero-Length-Launch?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDstVGAmI74

[Liffy 1M]

Watching the film "The Silent Enemy" (about the famous Commander "Buster" Crabb) on TV recently, I noted that in a scene where he and his men dive on a crashed aircraft, it is clearly a wrecked RAF Neptune (although it is meant to be Gen Sikorski's Liberator which crashed at Gibraltar). The movie (released in 1958) was largely shot in Gibraltar and it also includes ramp shots of Shackletons of 224 Sq., although the action is set in WW2.

I wonder what Neptune was used in this film, as it would have to have been either put into a large water tank or sunk offshore for the scenes concerned. The full film is on Youtube and the Neptune is clearly recognisable at 1:09:40.

The Silent Enemy Gibraltar - YouTube

[SASless]

The Blue Angel's "Fat Albert" does RATO takeoffs at each show usually.



Blue Angels Fat Albert C130 Jet Assisted take off JATO - YouTube

[GreenKnight121]

No, they don't.

November 14 2009 was the last JATO take-off at an air show for Fat Albert.

Nov. 14 is final JATO for popular Fat Albert - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times (http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/10/marine_blue_angels_jato_102909w/)

[SASless]

The way the budget is going....the Blues will be grounded altogether in time.

[lauriebe]

Liffy 1M, the aircraft in the film 'Silent Enemy' was likely WX547/51-15958.

This aircraft had suffered an undercarriage collapse on landing at Hal Far, Malta, on 13 Jan 56 and was subsequently written off. On 30 May 57, the remains were sold to Remus Films and pushed into the sea from cliffs at Hal Far.

This aircraft is shown in Warmtoast's Post #11 on Page 1 of this thread.

Info here:

UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com/results.php?serial=WX)

When the link opens, scroll halfway down to the serial.

[ORAC]

Interested to know what the data link was. Too early for Link 11?

Description of the book on page 4 of the thread looks interesting. Just ordered my copy.....

Secret Projects: Battle Flight: RAF Air Defence Projects and Weapons Since 1945 by Chris Gibson (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=15716.20;wap2)

CJGibson:
Dug out my ASAEW notes from Kew.

At 1000ft the tweaked AN/APS.20 could detect a Canberra flying at 300ft at 65nm. AN/APS.20 radar was "somewhat delicate", needed much "day-to-day maintenance" and the datalink was unreliable. The Neptune wasn't ideal as an AEW aircraft as it was too small, unreliable and could either control or report, but not both simultaneously. Accompanying fighters couldn't be seen on the radar due to clutter, so couldn't be vectored. Worked best if the radar picture was sent back to ground station, which limited the patrol line to 35 miles from the ground station. A 24 hour patrol line would require 9 Neptunes, which in 1955 was too expensive. Despite all that, HQ 12 Group were very happy.

RAF Air Defence Projects and Weapons Since 1945 by Chris Gibson

Battle Flight has gone to the printer and as promised, a chapter summary.

Battle Flight – RAF Air Defence Projects and Weapons

Chapter 1: X-Rays and the Evolution of the Threat
How the threat from the UK changed from 1000-bomber raids by Bulls to Badgers and Bears with free-fall nuclear bombs and stand-off weapons before moving to the ballistic missile. Post-Polaris the air-breathing threat changed to a dedicated maritime strike force of Backfire and Badger to attack NATO lines of communication.

Chapter 2: Lethal Confetti – Air Defence Artillery
The postwar development of British AA guns with the quest for more height, accuracy and rate of fire. Dr Beeching’s (yes, him) report on anti-aircraft guns and new rocket weapons such as Typhoon and High-Flyer. Also looks at Wallis’ Green Lizard and how the ever-more complex fire-control systems made the SAM a more effective alternative.

Chapter 3: Caelum Tuemur - We Watch over the Skies
Postwar early warning radars and plans from the Type 14 to the Type 93 and how they fitted into the air defence plans such as ROTOR, AHEAD and Linesman. Radar projects such as Red Cabbage, Blue Joker, Wealth, STAR, BMEWS and over-the-horizon techniques.

Chapter 4: We’re not Defending the Bloody French! - SAMs
Surface-to-air missiles - Bloodhound in its Mk.2, Command-guidance and nuclear guises, the origins of Blue Envoy and the hearing aid computer, Land Dart and why it didn’t prosper. The Stage II and III projects. A look at the post-Bloodhound projects such as FMS, SAM-72, SAM-3 and Guardian.

Chapter 5: Catch a Falling Star – ABMs
The fruitless search for a dual-purpose weapon. The basic systems based on Stages 1½, 1¾ and II. The bespoke ABMs such as Project 29 (the real one, not the one based on Bloodhound) and 36. Comparisons with US experience with ABMs. Helmet and Gerry Bull. ATBMs – Wolverine and how pushing the envelope killed British SAM projects.

Chapter6: Achieving a K-Kill -Weapons against Aircraft
Development of interceptor armament including the Aden, recoilless guns and air-to-air rockets. Nuclear weapons against aircraft, how the Air Staff calibrated their model and why such weapons fell from favour. Tossing Red Beards at Bears and the Air Staff’s efforts to acquire Genie. What would replace Red Top and the quest for more firepower leading to the flying battleship.

Chapter 7: Force Multipliers - Top-ups and Tip-offs
Elint types from the Washington to the Air Seeker via the Comet, Nimrod and VC10. Development of in-flight refuelling from the origin of the role with Cobham’s prewar work, the wartime proposals for the Pacific theatre, the postwar adoption by the RAF with Valiants then Victors and VC10s. Brief history of the V1000. The rise of the multi-role aircraft including the Super-tanker and BAe Woodford’s MRSA proposals based on Airbuses, FIMA and the LARC. The 50 year saga of the RAF’s search for an AEW type, Fishpond, Netcentric warfare in 1944, C-97AEW, Andover AEW and ASR.387, ASR.400, E-2K, HS.748AEW and the Nimrod debacle, plus Woodford’s MRSA and LARC again.

Chapter 8: The 1950s Terminal Event - Sandys, F.155 and Under-the-Counter Fighters
Why Britain had a fighter gap in the early 50s, the British Volksjäger, mixed thinking on powerplants. Proactive air defence – Warton’s intruders; the P.2 and P.12. The 1954 Air Defence Working party, the RAE’s Schräge Musik fighters, and the origins of Sandys’ thinking. Albion’s Foxbat, the F.155 juggernaut and how its end came with a beeping sphere and the Sandys Terminal Event. How the under-the-radar P.17 led to the under-the-counter P.22 fighter from Warton and thus prompted the rise of the mud-mover.

Chapter 9: Two Decades of Certainty - 1957 Onwards
The Admiralty lead the field in fighters while the mud-movers muscle-in on air defence with the rise of the multi-role fighter such as Warton’s PL.1. The threat changes from east to north prompting a change in air defence strategy. How Sandys did us a favour by clearing the decks. The Phantom CAP fits the GIUK Gap. The 1964 Air Defence Working Party report lays the foundation for the air defence systems we have today. The Jones fighter and how the Italians helped it evolve into the Tornado ADV we know today.

Chapter 10: Tornado ADV - A Merely Symbolic Force or Flying Battleship?
The alternatives to, and evolution of, the Tornado ADV and the threat from America. Why the RAF bought the Tornado ADV rather than the Tomcat or Eagle. The Phantom options and the development of, and alternatives to, Skyflash. Knife and fork prototypes from France and the Tornado for the Force de Frappe – how the French could have saved the entire MRCA project and the ACF could have kept the Bears at bay. Stretching the Tornado ADV.

Appendix – Operational requirements and Staff Targets

[Pontius Navigator]

ORAC, fascinating and to some extent what a thread (and thread drift). If this synopsis:

the Evolution of the Threat
How the threat from the UK changed from . . . Post-Polaris the air-breathing threat changed to a dedicated maritime strike force of Backfire and Badger to attack NATO lines of communication. It suggests that the UK Main Base Taceval scenario was skewed from the first day.

Why penetrate a robust central European defence before sending large vulnerable bombers to pin prick the UK main base? Why attack the UK Radar system from high-level with long range missiles when there was a much less significant low level penetration risk?

I long held the view that these exercises were wholly synthetic and designed to let us play at what we could do rather than admit what we couldn't. Bomber Command never had paper sandbags to defend against paper nukes.

[Hueymeister]

In the early 90's I heli-lifted two Neptune engines off the Mull. I remember helping the guys pull one of them out of the mud; the oil was as fresh as the day it had crashed, and the peaty soil had protected the metal beautifully. One went to the Officers' Mess, the other to the Sgts Mess at Machrihanish.

[Liffy 1M]

Liffy 1M, the aircraft in the film 'Silent Enemy' was likely WX547/51-15958.

This aircraft had suffered an undercarriage collapse on landing at Hal Far, Malta, on 13 Jan 56 and was subsequently written off. On 30 May 57, the remains were sold to Remus Films and pushed into the sea from cliffs at Hal Far.

Many thanks for that, Lauriebe. So parts of that movie must have been made in Malta as well.

[ScouseFlyer]

ancientaviator62

Flight engineer on the Herc sqn wasn't Frank Watson was it?He was on Neptunes for a short while before moving to Hastings and Beverleys and eventually on to Hercules-became a wing examiner at Lyneham after a spell as Adj(Flying) at ETPS.He is my uncle.

SF

[Tankertrashnav]

The AEO in my crew on Victor tankers had been a Signaller on Neptunes in his early days. He had an usual logbook entry - a three day flight! The aircraft took off at 2345 and landed at 0015 the day after next - 24.30, covering three dates.

I assume they carried two crews - I hope so at least!

[Pontius Navigator]

Liffy, thank you for that link. I can get Youtube directly on my TV but never tried before nor looked for full length films so double thanks.

I wonder why Crabbe got a GM and not a GC. Perhaps wavy navy were considered as civvies.

[Tankertrashnav]

Nearly a half of all awards of the George Medal to date have been to service personnel (c. 850), so Crabb's award is not particularly unusual. Not sure if he was RN or RNVR but the latter were certainly not classified as civilians. The George Cross is an extremely scarce decoration (also awarded to both service and civilian recipients). It ranks immediately below the Victoria Cross, so conditions for its award are particularly stringent and presumably Crabb did not meet the criteria for the higher award.

Incidentally we had a station commander at Marham with the George Medal, Gp Capt Vic McNabney. He had won it as a Flying Officer when attempting to rescue a glider pilot who had crashed into a waterfall.

[CoffmanStarter]

Tankertrashnav ...

I guess your AEO was flying in a modified Neptune to give it a 3 Day flight duration.

Here is an interesting narrative on the Truculent Turtle (Neptune P2V-1) historic flight from Perth Australia to Columbus Ohio in 1946 ... some 11,236 miles taking 55 Hrs 17 Mins NON-STOP :eek:

Historic Neptune P2V-1 Non-Stop Flight (http://www.maritimepatrolassociation.org/documents/heritage/Truculent_Turtle_1946.pdf)

The record established by CDR Tom Davies and the crew of the Truculent Turtle stood for decades. The distance record for all aircraft was broken in 1962 by a jet-powered B-52. The Truculent Turtle’s record for piston/propeller driven aircraft was broken by Burt Rutan’s Voyager, a carbon-fiber aircraft, which made its historic around the world non-stop flight in 1986... more than 40 years after the Turtle landed in Columbus, Ohio.

Best regards ...

Coff.

[airborne_artist]

The George Cross is an extremely scarce decoration (also awarded to both service and civilian recipients). It ranks immediately below the Victoria Cross, so conditions for its award are particularly stringent and presumably Crabb did not meet the criteria for the higher award.


GC and VC are equally-ranked, I understand. The VC is for actions directly in the face of the enemy, GC (if awarded for a military action) where the enemy are not present.

[CoffmanStarter]

Typerated, Herkman ...

I understand the P2V-5F variant had a pair of J34 jets mounted on the wings ... which apparently had a common fuel system with the R-3350-32W piston engines ... so they ran on AvGas. :eek: How does that work :confused:

Best ...

Coff.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, in the film Crabbe was portrayed as RNVR. I know the VC stands alone and hadn't realised that the GC did too with GM as a another. I had mistakenly assumes the DSO/DSM type hierarchy.

Knew VM when he was a flt cdr on 44. Definitely a good guy.

[Speedbird48]

The P2V's with the jets ran them on avgas and still do. Originally 145 Octane but now 100LL. There is a tanker operator near here in Missoula MT., Neptune Aviation, that has several and they work just fine.

A C130 will also run on a mix of jet fuel and avgas if jet fuel is not available. the temperatures go up a bit and the range goes down. Or, as Canadian C130Flight Engineer once told me, we can run on anything other than TCP!!! Tom Cat Pee!!

Speedbird 48.

[Tankertrashnav]

As far as the RAF was concerned, until the advent of the Valiant tanker force, jet aircraft were being refuelled from piston-engined tankers using Avgas.

Here's a Meteor being refuelled by a Lincoln c 1949

http://www.meteorflight.com/wps/meteor.nsf/images/lincoln_and_f4.jpg

[ancientaviator62]

ScouseFlyer,
it was a long time ago but the name rings a bell. I seem to recall he was a F/L at the time and we were on 48 (?) then back at Lyneham. Does this fit ?

[ScouseFlyer]

ancientaviator62

Yes that sounds right.

SF

[Green Flash]

Slight thread drift but I seem to recall that the Pegasus had a switch on the side of the engine that would allow the Harrier to burn anything from Brent Crude to hydrazine!

[pmills575]

The other example of a jet engine burning AvGas is the Viper 203 fitted to the Shackleton MkIII, although the run times were limited and after 30 hours at full throttle they were removed for some serious fixing!

pm575

[Haraka]

Anybody recall it burning its brakes out landing at St Eval on its celebratory post record tour? :)

[ronjm]

I did not fly an Shackletons but Neptuns, a number of friends flew in both and all preferred the Neptune


Neptune’s came to be supplied to the RAF because we had MR Lancaster’s with H2s radar and not much else in Coastal Command and the US said there were not good enough for the cold war,


I flow in the MR Lancaster’s at ST Morgan and operated the H2S radar and also in Neptune’s at RAF Kinloss an RAF Toppclife operating the an/aps20 radar the Americans were right the aps20 was by far better radar .the Neptune was also equipped with additional equipment that the Lancaster lacked, electronic counter measures equipment, sonic equipment, magnetic anomaly detection gear, etc.


The Neptune had crew comfort in mind, sound proofing padding, two bunk beds , a cooker and ash trays if needed

[chopper2004]

I have a copy of P2V In Action (pub Squadron Signal No.68) and Page 29, shows a photo of P-2V s/n 51-15956 destined for UK albeit in ferry and US markings still.

I was not aware that the batches we had under the MDAP , had the MAD tailboom but just the early versions without or with turret? Came across this on a pictorial book of the RAF from the year dot to the 1970s

Cheers

[BBadanov]

I was not aware that the batches we had under the MDAP, had the MAD tailboom but just the early versions without or with turret?

The first batch of RAAF Neptunes for Australia in 1951 were P2V-5s (before the P2V-7s a decade later) and were in an early configuration similar to this, but not quite.

The first were what we referred to as the Mark 1: three gun turrets (nose, tail, mid upper), no tailboom, no jets. Later the nose guns were removed.

The Mark 2, removal of nose and tail gun positions, addition of MAD boom and clear nose.

The Mark 3, removal of dorsal turret, so looking more like the final variant - MAD boom, no guns, clear nose cone.

Mark 4, the P2V-5F, in 1959 modded with J34 jets under the wings.

After the 1962 US designation changes, these became the P-2E, some say the SP-2E. The P2V-7 was delivered as the SP-2H.

[NutLoose]

Roadster as a % of GDP, it's not changed a lot defence spending wise from the 60's up to today

Charts of Past Spending - UkPublicSpending.co.uk (http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_history#defence)

[Pontius Navigator]

Nut, cracker, answering a question over two years ago.

[salad-dodger]

Roadster as a % of GDP, it's not changed a lot defence spending wise from the 60's up to today

You haven't got a clue have you? Even based on your own link there has been a massive a shift.

S-D

[TBM-Legend]

All you wanted to know about the 24 Neptunes flown by the RAAF:

ADF Serials - Neptune (http://www.adf-serials.com.au/2a89.htm)

[Ormeside28]

The Neptunes at MOTU at Kinloss when I went through the course in the summer of 1953 were the short nosed ones with the three turrets. When I joined 203 Squadron at Topcliffe that Autumn we were equipped with the long nosed version still with the three turrets. After about a year these were taken to Scottish Aviation at Prestwick and they were converted to the Perspex (?) nose and the MAD "sting" tail. Also the electric Varicam was changed to a hydraulic Varicam to avoid interference with the MAD tail instrumentation. A lovely aeroplane but I preferred four Griffons!! What have we got now? I think that we still had the twin .5 turret on top, but can't be sure. We still had our 16 rockets under the wings.

[LowObservable]

I had a colleague who was an ex-Chieftain tanker. He reckoned that if they had to, they could pull into a supermarket parking lot and refuel on bulk cooking oil.

[Rossian]

... last summer on our way back to the Chunnel we stayed overnight in a farmhouse B&B. There were 8 other guests there (of a similar demographic to madame and me).

Next morning over breakfast we all got chatting and one chap (deaf as a post) picked up that we were from Morayshire and said that he had spent a couple of weeks at a place called Kinloss for an exercise (flying Neptunes from the French Aeronavale) in the late 1950s.

He became very enthousiastic on finding a fellow (ex)maritime aviator but said that he and crew had had great difficulty with the food in both the Os and Sgts messes. "terrible" he claimed. Being enterprising chaps they set snares around the dispersal and caught a lot of rabbits. How to cook them?

As mentioned further up there was quite a good galley in the aircraft.
They decided to start an engine and get a genny on line to power the oven. It took rather a long time to cook the casserole and he reckoned they'd burnt maybe a thousand litres of Avgas.
"The most expensive rabbit stew in the history of French cuisine".

Small world the maritime aviators' world. But always amiable and interesting.

The Ancient Mariner

[Wander00]

C'est France..................

[Neptunus Rex]

the food in both the Os and Sgts messes. "terrible"

They should have gone into Findhorn for a Fish or Haggis Supper. That would have given them a whole new gastronomic experience.

:eek:

[Rossian]

......from a nation that eats Andouillette (chopped up intestines in a natural casing and a VERY strange smell) haggis might have been quite acceptable.

The Ancient Mariner

[Wander00]

Rossian - NO, a VAST improvement!

[Alan Mills]

The Neptunes certainly had the range, and the handling was excellent. I was told it was "almost like a fighter". APS 20 was very powerful, but the display was a bit rubbish when looking for small contacts. The early sonobuoy system using EER was very hit or miss, as was the Shackleton, with its slow data rate 1c system. I looked round one at Ballykelly, and remember the main spar took up a lot of space, and made it hard to move around. The galley was tiny and a bit of a slum. In ASW exercises from Ballykelly it did not have a lot of luck. Later improvements (AQA5?) may have helped, but the Shackletons had the edge as an ASW aircraft.

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Alan ... I'm pleased to see my original post still pulling some interest :ok:

[AnsonVM356]

Many thanks Alan ... I'm pleased to see my original post still pulling some interest :ok:
As plane mad youngsters in the early 1950s, my brother and I lived in a village about 10 miles south of Topcliffe and would regularly see both the short and long tailed Neptunes passing overhead on their landing approach. They had lovely sounding engines compared to the racket from Dishforth's Valettas! We occasionally got close to them at Linton-on-Ouse open days and remember the subtle whistle that came from the props; noticeable during start up, warm up and taxiing. They seemed impressive aeroplanes to us.

Around the same period we had the excitement of 66 and 92 squadron Canadair Sabres frequently passing around the village, and used to ride our bikes the 5 miles to hang over the hedge to watch the Sabre movements for hours on end.

I realise I am extremely late to add to this thread, but I saw a photo of a Neptune on line and the memories spurred me to do a bit of a search which ended up here!

[chopper2004]

Did we just use the P-2 for patrols around the coast at height of the Cold War, or did we deploy them outside of theses shores and Europe such as used in the Malayan emergency or Borneo ..

cheers

[Martin the Martian]

They were certainly all UK based, and I have a vague idea that as they were MDAP-funded they could only be used as NATO assets.

[pr00ne]

Martin the Martian,

I doubt that there was any such restriction seeing as the majority of the RAF's Hunters, Shackletons and Javelins were also MDAP funded.

[Radley]

[QUOTE=chopper2004;10788283]Did we just use the P-2 for patrols around the coast at height of the Cold War, or did we deploy them outside of theses shores and Europe such as used in the Malayan emergency or Borneo ..

Pretty sure they were based at Kinross in the 50s

[Radley]

Or even Kinloss

[Green Flash]

Given that there were 6 squadrons plus the radar trials flight I assume 3 at Kinloss and 3 at St Mawgan?
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/lockheed-sp-2h-neptune/

[Video Mixdown]

Given that there were 6 squadrons plus the radar trials flight I assume 3 at Kinloss and 3 at St Mawgan?
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/lockheed-sp-2h-neptune/
There is speculation that the AEW Research & Development work conducted by 1453 Flight from Topcliffe (1953 to 1956) may in fact be a cover story for classified radar reconnaissance operations over the Eastern Bloc. Their Neptunes appear to have carried full defensive armament, which seems inconsistent with R & D flights.

[pr00ne]

Given that there were 6 squadrons plus the radar trials flight I assume 3 at Kinloss and 3 at St Mawgan?
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/lockheed-sp-2h-neptune/

Nope. Only 4 RAF Neptune squadrons (36, 203, 210 and 217) with 3 squadrons and the AEW Flight at RAF Topcliffe, and 1 squadron at RAF Kinloss. Plus there was the Neptune element of the OCU at Kinloss too.

[Green Flash]

Tks pr00ne

[Ascend Charlie]

The pilots of Neptunes would refer to them as "Two turning, two burning, and it was often the wrong two burning..."

[Caramba]

Nope. Only 4 RAF Neptune squadrons (36, 203, 210 and 217) with 3 squadrons and the AEW Flight at RAF Topcliffe, and 1 squadron at RAF Kinloss. Plus there was the Neptune element of the OCU at Kinloss too.

217 was at Kinloss, plus the OCU. The remainder must have been at Topcliffe.

i always thought it was a very graceful looking aeroplane.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1493/be5138e6_5b03_4354_9c99_f13e75f6a195_54db7b720de7d716378d0ac 58ce02949bf186678.jpeg
MR1 I think WX505, 217 squadron, c1956

[Green Flash]

Gracefull yes but I remember seeing a Dutch one displayed (Finningley maybe) very enthusiastically and it couldn't half turn. The Cloggies were hurling it about the sky in the grand style.

[evansb]

The Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) operated 25 Neptunes from 1955 to 1968. Lockheed CP-122/P2V-7/CL-826-45-14 Neptune (25), (Serial Nos. 24101-24125). They were replaced by the Canadair CP-107 Argus.

Several ex-RCAF Neptunes ended up fighting forest fires in the U.S.A.

[redsetter]

Martin the Martian,

I doubt that there was any such restriction seeing as the majority of the RAF's Hunters, Shackletons and Javelins were also MDAP funded.
From documents I've seen, the US did place restrictions on the use of aircraft they bought (or part-funded) via their various aid programmes. The restrictions were not just by numbers (i.e. "we've paid for N so we'd better see N assigned to SACEUR") but, in some cases at least, also applied to individual aircraft, identified by serial. The latter restriction came as something of a surprise to the Air Ministry and caused a fair amount of inconvenience when it became known, since it meant they had to ensure only non-US funded aircraft went out of area.

[pr00ne]

redsetter,

Are you seriously saying that the US would have prevented the RAF deploying US funded aircraft to Korea in the early 50's. Seeing as the US directly paid for numerous Hunters, Javelins, Canberras, Shackletons, Sabres, Neptunes Whirlwinds and Washingtons that would have been quite a restriction. I know that didn't happen, but it was a possibility for some time.
Operation Firedog in Malaya and then Confrontation with Indonesia as well as the long running saga in Aden just three instances of "out of area" with many of the types that the US paid for utilised, but up until maybe the mid to late 60's there is a strong argument that the RAF frontline was actually a lot further East than Europe.

[redsetter]

I assume the US might have allowed US financed aircraft to be used in Korea. As regards Malaya etc not all UK aircraft were paid for (part or otherwise) by the US, which meant that some could still be deployed for purely national committments. But the fact remains, the US government had a very real say in the use of aircraft they had financed (so Suez must have doubly annoyed them).

[kenparry]

As mentioned above, some Hunters (I never found out how many) were funded under MDAP, but that did not stop them being used in the Middle East. However, come disposal time at the end of their RAF service, the funding source determined the countries to which they could be sold. The US vetoed sales of MDAP-funded aircraft to Latin America (and possibly elsewhere), so it was the UK-funded airframes that went there.

[Pontius Navigator]

Gracefull yes but I remember seeing a Dutch one displayed (Finningley maybe) very enthusiastically and it couldn't half turn. The Cloggies were hurling it about the sky in the grand style.
A Cloggie one displaying at Den Helder was doing a high speed run iro 300kts when the copilot's hatch unlatched. I think the Cmdr was in the right hand seat and managed to hang on to it.

[chopper2004]

I have a copy of P2V In Action (pub Squadron Signal No.68) and Page 29, shows a photo of P-2V s/n 51-15956 (tel:51-15956) destined for UK albeit in ferry and US markings still.

I was not aware that the batches we had under the MDAP , had the MAD tailboom but just the early versions without or with turret? Came across this on a pictorial book of the RAF from the year dot to the 1970s

Cheers

Same here :)

cheers


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/e51a9d2e_03cf_4e72_a692_f488a1285756_9b2b861d9345147b71a39e6 67e483dd006d1c87f.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/df031b70_451b_41d2_8da4_ac795576fb22_57f3eae0f373eb9dc94ed83 71dbb95d8b7919443.jpeg

[Caramba]

I have the same book. Discussed that very photo with the Pater. I’m sure I remember being told that the aircraft arrived without MAD tail or observer nose and were converted during their time in the RAFs hands.

51-115956 became WX543 before going off to Brazil. I’ll try to do some homework

caramba