Moving to Europe

[Griffin20]

Looking for thoughts and advice.

I grew up in the US as a British citizen and am presently working on a 4-year Bachelor of Science degree in Aviation Flight Ops at Westminster College in Utah, USA. I am within a year, now, of graduation and am having some thoughts on moving to the UK to pursue a job with the airlines there. Most of my family lives in England and I find the lifestyle and the general career path of Euro airline pilots more appealing than flight instructing and eventually getting hired by a low-wage regional carrier in the US.

I have been in touch with Oxford Aviation Academy lately (and visited them around 2 years ago) who explained that I would simply need to complete their ATPL course to make myself eligible for an airline career in the UK. I understand this can be done via distance learning so this sounds pretty appealing. It also sounds like OAA has some pretty good connections with the airlines.

One of my concerns I have after a lot of research is that it seems most air carriers in the UK are beginning to striclty hire pilots from ab-initio schemes (BA, Easyjet, Flybe, etc) which I would no longer qualify for. OAA reassured me that I would still have a good chance, but I am curious what you all think.

I also wanted to know if anyone has any thoughts, suggestions or advice for me. How is Oxford's ATPL course? Will airlines still be looking for direct entry first officers in the next few years?

Few more specifics...
I will be 22 when I graduate next year. I should end up with ~500 hours total flight time, an FAA CPL (multi & single) and IR

Cheers

[cockney steve]

I am NOT (and never have been) in the Airline industry.

I would suggest you are being extremely naive if you think you'll get anything approaching unbiased advice from any company whose sole raison d' etre is to flog you some very expensive training.

The known facts:- the industry is in recession.

It doesn't appear to be easing nor is the immediate (~ 4 years) future looking any brighter.

There would appear to be a large number of hopefuls, like yourself, all dressed and ready, but no date showing up.
It's unlikely the retirement -rate will outstrip the number of qualified Wannabe's raring to go.
IF you intend doing further training, do it in the USA! It's apparently a lot cheaper for Brits to fly there, pay accommodation do a course and fly back.....You really need to spend a couple of weeks perusing ALL the various sub-forums on PPrune and maybe you'll get a much better idea.

Sorry to be so negative, but you don't seem to have done much "homework " on here before posting.

IMHO, you are suffering "grass is greener" syndrome......well, it's undernourished, wilting and shrivelling this side of the "pond" Many European pilots would love to be over there working , but they can't get the work Permits (Green-card?)

Just my 2 pennorth (10 cents worth!)

[spider_man]

One of my concerns I have after a lot of research is that it seems most air carriers in the UK are beginning to striclty hire pilots from ab-initio schemes (BA, Easyjet, Flybe, etc) which I would no longer qualify for. OAA reassured me that I would still have a good chance

Perhaps ask them which airlines in the UK you would stand a 'good chance' with once qualified from their course. When you get a reply come back and update us :8

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Stay in America, I am saying that wholeheartedly!

[Griffin20]

I would suggest you are being extremely naive if you think you'll get anything approaching unbiased advice from any company whose sole raison d' etre is to flog you some very expensive training.


Which is why I am consulting other sources...


IF you intend doing further training, do it in the USA!


I am, and intend to as I mentioned above.

Sorry to be so negative, but you don't seem to have done much "homework " on here before posting.


Most recent postings are about moving to the USA from abroad which explains me staring a new thread.

[EMB-145LR]

As a Brit living in the US and working for a US airline, I would say forget any idea of heading to the UK to work. I've been trying to get home for five years, but its just not happening. Jobs are easy to come by in the USA if you follow the correct career path. Instruct, pay your dues, get 1,500 hours, go to a regional and then reassess from there. I hold both FAA and EASA licenses, have three type ratings (inc A320) and thousands of hours. I am now at a stage where my wife and I have decided to move back to the UK and I will commute to my company's nearest East Coast base every week. Times are tough at the moment in Europe, much tougher than in the US.

On a side note you won't just have to do your ATPL ground school, you'll also have to do an IR and CPL conversion. This will cost nearly $20,000.

The grass is not greener.

[pilotchute]

Before I moved out to Australia I spoke to OAA on a couple of occasions over a few months. The first time I said I was an older guy and would that hold me back?
"Oh no" they said, "a lot of airlines prefer you with a bit of maturity".

A month later pretending to be a first time enquirer.
"I'm still pretty young so I think I might hold off for a while and save some money before starting". "Oh don't wait too long as your odds will decrease drastically the closer you get to thirty!"

It was all a sales pitch. They just told you whatever it took to get you to sign up. If you look at the stats they peddle about how many OAA grads are working for airlines now you will notice if you remove the 130 odd guys that Ryanair took then only about 30 got jobs last year. Nothing states how long these guys looked for said job either. Now that RYR have stopped expansion you can expect that number to fall by about 70% for 2013.

Oh and I noticed they class Lion Air in Indonesia as a job. Last time I checked it was P2F.

[Griffin20]

On a side note you won't just have to do your ATPL ground school, you'll also have to do an IR and CPL conversion. This will cost nearly $20,000.


I was wondering about that, after paying for college that would definitely be an issue.

Thanks for the input!

[bex88]

I graduated in 08 just before the economic crash, spent the next 2 years scratching a living well actually just £20 here and there as a flight instructor and doing summer contracts. It's come good now but for most of my course it has not happened. The figures include past cadets, so say you graduated in 08 and got a job in 12 they will put you in the jobs total. Strip out EZY and RYN and from my course I think there is myself and 2 others at other airlines. If these guys cut back I would think 90% of graduates would be without jobs. If I were about to spend £80k + I would really say its a punt. I graduated top of my class but I certainly did not find work easily and it does come down to right place right time. Stay in the USA and in the medium term it will be better.

[cerealkiller]

Wish I had the chance to move to the U.S.

Anyway, as a lot of people said, is much easier to follow a career path in the States than landing a job in Europe.

CFI first, then regional or general aviation and finally wherever you like. In Europe is something that doesn't work anymore since... ever.

I can suggest "ATP flight school", since after CFI rating they give you a job as instructor and reaching 1500 hours they have good connections with regionals like for example american eagle.

As I said at the beginning, wish I was allowed to live there.

:ok:

[squall1984]

Hey guys,

Don't normally reply to posts but thought I'd say something about this.

To the original poster, if you have the hours you say you do then your conversion is a lot easier. I am in the process of doing it myself. With your American ATPL and 500 hours jet you can skip ground school for writing the writtens, you can use a question bank like Bristol and do quite well considering g you should know a lot of it already. Some exams like gen nav will be trickier to learn alone but with the right book it's not hard. Furthermore the person that said it will cost you £20,000 is wrong. As an American ATP holder you need training to professionsy in a sim of a aircraft you are typed in and you to the equivalent of a proficiency check for your checkride. Lufthansa offe it on the CRJ for €350 sim per hour and €750 for instructor per day as ll as €750 for a fake captain seat filler. They recommend 6 hours and two days. If you pass first time and use max hours it will cost you about 7-8000 for the checkride. Exams will cost you about 1500$ if you write them in the states, the medical for initial is something like 800$. Whole thing is about 10-12,000.

If you have the money I'd do it, you are not in the same category as these recently graduated 250 hour pilots for getting a job (no offense to anyone), having a unfrozen ATPL opens a lot more doors to you, your quality of life will be a lot better and you will upgrade faster. Looking at airlines in the UK besides Ryan air there are a lot offices hiring with ATPL as a requirement (unfrozen) and with time on a airbus you will be fine. It won't happen immediately but it will happen. Can always do emirates in the mean time


What follows is a rant a about flying in the US, skip this if you don't care.
People in Europe are very disillusioned about flying in the states, having instructed over 50 European students I can say most of them would love to be able to fly in the states. Just some food for thought but some points about flying in the states. As of end of 2013 you would need 1500 hours to get a job at a regional, that's flying typically a CRJ200/700/900 for starting pay of about $22, second year pay is about $33-36 and you work at a minimum 75 hours a mount (guaranteed pay). So for instance after taxes my girlfriend makes about 1200$ a month, on second year I make about $3600 a month. You WILL be away from home 3-4 sometimes as much as 6 days a week, and in all likelihood you will be in a town you have never heard of. Everything is seniority based, upgrade to captain averages 4-6 years depending on mainline hiring, when you upgrade your schedule will be **** again and you will make $60-70$ a hour. After. Probably around 5 years you may go to mainline delta etc and make about the same and then a little more a captain, chances of that is slim considering delta opened applications for hiring and got nearly 20,000 applications. You will most likely be furloughed more than once in your career which is a kind of like a long time off with no pay, if you go somewhere else you start at the bottom. You will not be right seat of a 737/a320 until you probably have a 5000 plus jet, this all depend on mainline hiring.

[Gomrath]

I can suggest "ATP flight school", since after CFI rating they give you a job as instructor and reaching 1500 hours they have good connections with regionals like for example american eagle.

As I said at the beginning, wish I was allowed to live there.

Just to be clear- they do not "give you a job".
On a non immigrant visa - you are not entitled to work in the US. What you can do - if you are on a F1 visa is undertake OPT - Optional Practical Training for a maximum of 1 year. It is "Optional" no guarantee and certainly no assurance that you will get anywhere near 1500 hours in that 12 month period.

[zondaracer]

Just to be clear- they do not "give you a job". Good point Gomrath. Not only that, but word on the street is that guys doing the program are waiting up to 6 months to start instructing due to a backlog.


@Squall1984: The OP said that he will have 500 hours TT, not 500 hrs on type plus an ATP. So, a conversion to EASA probably will cost him close to 20,000k. But what you said about converting with a type is definitely a good idea, hence why I have been preaching guys to get to a regional first in the US if they can, and then convert later on. They will have a type rating on their ATPL and it will have saved them money. You also have some very valid points about the regional airline scene in the US, but plenty of low cost carriers in Europe aren't much better (except that a few of them have no layovers and back home each night).

[cerealkiller]

Just to be clear- they do not "give you a job".
On a non immigrant visa - you are not entitled to work in the US. What you can do - if you are on a F1 visa is undertake OPT - Optional Practical Training for a maximum of 1 year. It is "Optional" no guarantee and certainly no assurance that you will get anywhere near 1500 hours in that 12 month period.

You're absolutely right, I was just guessing that being grew up in the States he's allowed to work and live there. If not, simply disregard every single word I wrote.

I heard as well about the backlog but, again, to be honest I'd be rather happy to wait there in a line than being job hunting in Europe where chances in general aviation, for example, are close to zero.

A couple of friends of mine, who have been through the CFI thing in the States, upon reaching almost 2000 hours landed a job in the regionals, one of them in American Eagle but not through ATP though, since they were both instructing in other flight schools.

What I'm saying is that, based on their experience and what I heard from them, the States definitely offer more chances to start your career from the bottom of the ladder up to the top. You need luck, skills, but you can make it. In Europe, well it's totally different story.

And talking about salary, I'm struggling to survive leaving in some of the worst places on the earth, I'd swap immediately for a low paid job in a regional in the States.

[squall1984]

Whoops, idk where I got the idea he had more flight time. In my opinion you have two options, instruct hope to land a regional job then convert for 10,000$ of spend about $20,000. I would say its easier to get a job in the US than Europe, however there are currently a lot of regional pilots on the street because comair closed and pinnacle is set to lose 2400 pilots because they are downsizing over the next year. These guys have jet time and would prob be favored over a new instructor. Skywest stopped hiring for now, expressjet is offering voluntary leave, republic is maybe hiring, gojet isn't hiring and Eagle is hiring 600 pilots in 2013. Not many people are leaving regionals because mainline isn't hiring and probably won't do any serious hiring till 2014, delta is stagnant, united is hiring very little and amerixan has flow from Eagle. Everything can of course change in the about year and a half it will take you to meet requirements plus it will take you another year in the regionals to get 500 hours (groundschool and sim is about 2-3 months) if you are on reserve it can take forever (my gf has flown 300 hours in 8 months) but if you hold a line will take you about 7 months from finishing training.

I spoke to the head of HR at DHL Europe and she said there are jobs but only for experienced people and that there are a ton of people just out of flight school, I think it will be a whole to get a job in Europe but you won't know unless you have the license.

I'd suggest you do distance learning and write the ATPLs whilst instructing in the US, you need to write them anyway and you're only spending a little more on a course you'd probably need anyway, you'd build your time instructing and the writtens will take you a while (6 months or more depending how you study and how many exams you take at a time and pass/fail).

[ragamuffin]

I suppose no one can really give you an answer for your particular situation. It's a melting pot of lifestyle, emotional, family, professional motivations. Your age is your greatest advantage. You have obviously been thinking of this issue for some time and you're already on a path to get to your goal, I suspect you'll succeed in finding a seat at the pointy end.

I moved the opposite way (UK to US). The move brings it's own challenges but if you're an optimistic and ambitious person, which again I suspect you are, you'll enjoy the challenge of making it in a different culture once you decide on that path.

I made the move with already having lots of jet and prop hours, but I can still understand your particular view. The US will give you a longer path to the airlines and the UK could potentially give you a direct bump into a B737 A320.
The longer path that the US option will offer is no bad thing and will give you a great grounding, however, If there's one thing I've learnt, it's that you shouldn't limit yourself with this "grounding", just get yourself on the jets as quick as you can if that is your ultimate goal. You are more likely going to get that in the UK than you are here in the US. someone once said "never turn down a rating on bigger plane and never turn down a command" it's wise advice, I've seen people turn down a prop command at their present company as they want to move onto the jets, only to sit in the RHS of the prop for years more.

I personally loved working in the UK, only you can guess how it'd work out for you. You have family there also so adapting will come a little easier. Gaining easy access to Europe via staff travel will probably be enough reward for your trials in relocating.

The recession is real but it was when I gained my CPL/IR. Some of the guys went onto props and some went straight onto jets, a couple took years to find their first "break". You already know the gamble yet you're still on this path so continue to be wary of recession but don't let it disable your ambition.

Just keep going and take all the dire warnings you read about here on pprune with a pinch of salt. Good luck with your remaining studies.

[darkroomsource]

Two things.
1. I was born in UK, raised in US, now living in UK. The economy here is MUCH better than it was in the US a year and a half ago when I left. People are constantly talking about 'not enough work' but then I'm constantly seeing jobs available, far more than in the US, in all industries (EXCEPT aviation - see number 2), and the company I work for is having a very hard time hiring the hundreds of operators it needs for it's new facility.

2. Currently, the BA ab-initio program is CHARGING the PROSPECTIVE pilots £100,000 UP FRONT. To be paid back by reducing their salary after they go on the line IF THEY ARE HIRED. If people are willing to pay £100,000 ($165,000) for the CHANCE to get a job, the airline industry can't be that desperate here that they'd be willing to take on someone with 500 hours. (I need to clarify this, the airline is not giving you the money to do it, they are requiring that you pay them in advance, they will direct you to a lending institution, but will not guarantee the loan, you have to get some equity from somewhere to do that, or you have to have the money up front - if you don't get the job, you're out £100,000 and no job, and have to pay back the loan, with interest)

As to your ratings, an ATP is 1200 hours, not 500, so you won't be getting your ATP until then, in most of the world outside of the US there's a thing some people refer to as a 'frozen ATP' (fATP), which is actually a CPL/IR with the ATP written tests completed. You have a limited amount of time to build the 1200 hours, and if you do, then it becomes an actual ATP. This does NOT apply to an FAA ATP, so you'd have to convert your FAA commercial certificate to some other country first. And I don't know if you can do that without being in that country.

[Griffin20]

Big thank you for all the input and responses thus far. Especially to those of you with constructive and thoughtful advice.

Yes, just to be clear I am a dual US/UK citizen with the right to live and work in both countries.

As for instructing/low time flying in the US, I am fortunate to have strong connections with a couple flight schools at my home airport in California (having cleaned airplanes for them over the years) and believe I have a good chance of getting with one of them after graduating at the end of the year, so I am lucky in that respect.

After doing a lot of research, and discussing the matter with my advisors at school, I've pretty much concluded that I will move forward with becoming & working as a CFI here in the US to gain more time and get closer to meet the unfrozen ATPL minimums. I figure this will take between 2 and 3 years (hopefully).

I'd suggest you do distance learning and write the ATPLs whilst instructing in the US

This is essentially my plan. I have been researching a number of companies that offer such programs (including OAA as mentioned).

Thanks again everyone for the input!