MEDALS AND CLASPS [Archive]

Tankertrashnav

19th Dec 2012, 12:46

An Arctic Convoy lapel badge was instigated in 2006. I have seen these adapted for wear on the Atlantic Star ribbon. It's not sure whether this announcement refers to a clasp or a new medal - I suspect the former, similarly the proposed Bomber Command award.

Good luck to these guys, but I am confused at Sir John's remarks that Bomber Command had been treated inconsistently with those who served in Fighter Command. Other than the very limited number who received the 'Battle of Britain' clasp, Fighter Command received no special award either. The trouble is, once you start straying from the original idea of theatre stars and honour specific formations there's no end to it.

Heathrow Harry

19th Dec 2012, 15:42

finish up like the USAF and other Ruritanean forces...............

Don't the Israeli's just have a single medal for bravery?

Pontius Navigator

19th Dec 2012, 16:59

Issued at bar mitzvah?

Spit the Dog

19th Dec 2012, 17:01

Roger the cabin boy

19th Dec 2012, 17:08

No, in short. Doesn't stop 'em buying it though. My Dad is the same - feels that as he "served for 37 years, man and boy", he deserved both the QGJM and QDJM - despite not being eligible for either.

Probably because as an ex-Pongo with just 3 (earned) gongs, he can't bear it that his commissioned Crab son has 9.

Pontius Navigator

19th Dec 2012, 17:25

A colleague of mine went to a Black Tie dinner last week and noted a retired Major in his late 60s wearing the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee miniature medal. When he asked him how he had been awarded it he said it was acceptable to buy it and wear it as he had served during the Queens reign. Is this correct?

The answer might have been "maybe".

With the change in age retirement it would be possible for an officer to be an RO beyond the age of 65; I retired at 67.

OTOH as ROs paid by the CS rather than the military we were not awarded the GJM but the rules might have changed.

Spit the Dog

19th Dec 2012, 17:26

Didn't think so....

Spit the Dog

19th Dec 2012, 17:27

This gentleman retired many years ago as I know his wife.

Sloppy Link

19th Dec 2012, 17:59

1. Spit, not entitled.
2. Roger, 9? Nig.;)

baffman

19th Dec 2012, 19:10

finish up like the USAF and other Ruritanean forces...............

Don't the Israeli's just have a single medal for bravery? No, the IDF have few medals and ribbons, but we are talking here about a campaign award (clasp/rosette?) not a valour decoration.

I would have thought there are better arguments against awarding a medal so long after the event, but I don't believe there were many Ruritanians on Arctic convoys.

Chugalug2

19th Dec 2012, 19:36

TTN:
...I am confused at Sir John's remarks that Bomber Command had been treated inconsistently with those who served in Fighter Command. Other than the very limited number who received the 'Battle of Britain' clasp, Fighter Command received no special award either. The trouble is, once you start straying from the original idea of theatre stars and honour specific formations there's no end to it.
Absolutely agree. Harris's call for a Bomber Command Medal was always a non-starter. What wasn't a non-starter in my view was a call for a Bombing Campaign Star, for a Campaign that lasted from the beginning to the end of the European War, as did the Battle of the Atlantic, for which there was a Star. That it wasn't issued after the War was plain PC in my opinion, now that enemies became allies and vice versa.
I too am confused about what is now to happen, are the Arctic Convoyers to get a separate Star now? Are the surviving Bomber Boys to get a clasp (presumably to their France Germany or Aircrew Europe Star)? If that is the case it would seem strange that a Campaign, awful though it was, that cost 3000 lives gets a medal, while another awful one that cost 55,500 lives just gets a clasp.
Even so I suspect that the next retrospective act of this PM will be to apologise for the Bombing Campaign. That then should tidy up all the loose ends, shouldn't it?

thing

19th Dec 2012, 23:12

Wouldn't worry about it Chug, Bomber Commands sacrifices are it's own epitaph; everyone knows what they did and how many were lost. The dead don't need medals, they just need remembering, and I'm sure we all do that. I have an aunt who used to drive the crews out to their Halifaxes at Burn, it's still like it was yesterday to her and she's still haunted by the boys who didn't come back.

plasticAF

20th Dec 2012, 01:50

Thing

Don't tell your aunt but 578Sqn are having their annual wreath laying at Burn Village in May 2013.
431Sqn RCAF had their's in October, current Sqn CO and her Sqn Cheif WO attended the memorial unveiling and march past by local air cadets.
CO kindly took the salute too.
Village Council have asked the cadets to parade again for 578Sqn.

Whenurhappy

20th Dec 2012, 06:36

Good morning,

A quick question on numbers of ribbons per row on No 1 Service Dress:

A colleague, like myself and serving in a very remote location, recently had his medals and ribbons mounted by a Regtl Tailor, as part of a job lot of QDJMs. He's got 8 medals (not unusual this day and age) and the ribbons were mounted in two complete rows. At a recent event in his No 1s, he was taken aside by a visiting Wg Cdr and told off 'they should be in rows of 1, 3, 4.' Is this so?

I had a similar experience a few years ago when military tailors at Aldershot (the wonderfully-named Glover and Ryder) mounted my (then) 5 ribbons in a 2+3 configuration. This was wrong, apparently.

Daf Hucker

20th Dec 2012, 08:13

From an RAF perspective the Wg Cdr was wrong! :ugh:

AP 1358 Chap 8 Parae 0829;

Positioning of Breast Ribbons........A row is to consist of not more than four ribbons. When more than four ribbons are worn, they are to be made up to display as many complete rows of four as possible with any incomplete row at the top........

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/0F224F8B_5056_A318_A8021218430AAA8A.pdf

Can't speak for the Army or Navy of course.

Daf

Edited to get rid of a load of blah that can be read, by those who so wish/are bored, by following the link.

Sloppy Link

20th Dec 2012, 08:20

Tankertrashnav

20th Dec 2012, 08:42

As someone who reckons to know a bit about medals my own ribbons on my old number one are correctly mounted as per regulations - ie in a neat row of one ;)

Re Spit the Dog's major, of course he wasn't entitled to wear the QDJM, miniature or full size, although there's nothing to stop him buying one as a souvenir. That said I used to do a steady trade in restrikes/copies which were bought by ex-service types who felt they had missed out in the medal stakes. I strongly suspect a lot of them got an airing on Remembrance Sunday, etc, and of course some of the guys turned into the sort of Walt that we've discussed on here at various times.

Pontius Navigator

20th Dec 2012, 10:19

This gentleman retired many years ago as I know his wife.

Would you care to elaborate?

:}

Spit the Dog

20th Dec 2012, 12:28

Rather not....she is the Mayor !

thing

20th Dec 2012, 14:04

Don't tell your aunt but 578Sqn are having their annual wreath laying at Burn Village in May 2013.

Thanks for that, she'll just have had her 91st birthday. I have two photos of her, one leaning against the u/c of a Hallybag during the war and one taken about 65 years later at Elvington when they brought Friday the 13th out of the hangar and she's leaning on the same u/c leg. (Different a/c obviously.)

Tankertrashnav

21st Dec 2012, 20:13

I was somewhat saddened by a letter in today's Times from a Bomber Command veteran, a holder of the DFC, who was stating his opinion that whereas the Arctic veterans would appear to be getting a medal, the Bomber Command chaps were only to get a clasp to their star, which he described as "adding insult to injury"

Far be it from me to criticize an elderly gentleman who served gallantly in a campaign that I cannot even imagine, but I nevertheless feel that my earlier statement that there is no end to it once you start messing around with medals from old campaigns is starting to be proved correct.

Pontius Navigator

21st Dec 2012, 20:40

TN, quite. Did anyone complain about the Burma/Pacific Star either/or as they wanted to limit the total number of campaign stars?

Climebear

22nd Dec 2012, 01:29

Army rules are as follows....... The first row should be central for the first and subsequent ribbons until the breast pocket width is complete. In the case of some individuals, this may be up to five ribbons. Once the first row is complete, each subsequent row should start on the extreme left as worn until complete and so on. Medal ribbons should not be obscured by the lapel. In simple terms, the collection should resemble a right angled triangle and not a pyramid.

The Army changed their policy in Oct 10 with subsequent rows now being mounted centrally (until the lapel comes into play). One of the reasons given was that NATO and UN medal ribbons are not the same width as UK ones which results in uneven rows which look better centralized.

References are D/DPS(A)/25/12/00/PS12(A) dated 15 Oct 10 and Army Briefing Note 10-12 dated 2 Feb 12.

As an aside both the Army and RAF regulations mandate a gap between rows (for fewer than 5 rows). Although, military tailors don't appear to bother with this.

Whenurhappy

22nd Dec 2012, 07:21

Thanks for the responses. As I thought at the time, the Visiting Wg Cdr was wrong with the 1, 3, 4 instruction to my RAF colleague. A friend also had his ribbons done by well- known medallist but when they came back they were about 2/3 the height of RAF ones. When he questioned this he was told that this was the 'Cavalry' style! But as we know, there is no consistency with Army officers uniforms.

Sloppy Link

22nd Dec 2012, 08:34

Every day is a school day. Regardless of the triangle vs pyramid issue, there should still only be one incomplete row (unless the lapel dictates).

emeritus

22nd Dec 2012, 10:24

This seems to be an appropriate forum to make some enquiries about medals/campaign ribbons.

I do not have a military background but have had an interest in the display of awards on uniforms.

I have several queries...

1 Can anyone recommend any books that will explain the basics of decorations.

2 Is it my imagination that the Americans and Russians always seem to have decorations all over their uniforms. Compared to some of the Skippers I flew with in my early days of airline flying who were ex Bomber Command, these people appear to have been in every war/conflict in recent history.

thanks in anticipation.

Emeritus.

Chugalug2

22nd Dec 2012, 10:38

TTN:
I was somewhat saddened by a letter in today's Times from a Bomber Command veteran, a holder of the DFC, who was stating his opinion that whereas the Arctic veterans would appear to be getting a medal, the Bomber Command chaps were only to get a clasp to their star, which he described as "adding insult to injury"

I'm not quite sure what it is that you are criticising, TTN. Was he correct in stating that the Arctic veterans are to get a new Star, whereas the Bomber ones get a clasp? If that is the case I would echo his sentiments and would criticise not him but those who had come up with this "solution". What is it about the European Bombing Campaign that sets it apart from the other major ones in that Theatre to be denied a Campaign Medal in its own right? The loss rate was just shy of 50%. With all due respect to every other Campaign in WWII, none of them approached that. I remain convinced that it was a combination of inter Service jealousy (and inter Command?) and what would now be termed "Political Correctness" that denied Harris the gong for his Old Lags, and not simply that:
PN:they wanted to limit the total number of campaign stars?

Tocsin

22nd Dec 2012, 14:28

Tankertrashnav

22nd Dec 2012, 14:48

What is it about the European Bombing Campaign that sets it apart from the other major ones in that Theatre to be denied a Campaign Medal in its own right?

As I hope I made clear in my original post, I am not criticising this gentleman, just the decision to retrospectively alter the way campaign medals were awarded at the end of WW2. It was decided that rather than seek to reward individual formations, the medals would be awarded by theatre, with all participants in that theatre receiving the same star, irrespective of casualty rates. If, therefore, you consider the air war over Europe as a theatre, all participants, whether Bomber Command, Fighter Command etc (right down to SOE Lysanders) received the same star, although I never understood the decision to start awarding the France and Germany Star after D Day instead of the Aircrew Europe Star. Similarly Coastal Command, whose theatre of operation was over the sea received the same campaign star as the Royal Navy - the Atlantic Star.

Attempting to mess around with this system at this late date is only going to stir up old inter-service rivalries and lead to dissatisfaction.

Chugalug2

22nd Dec 2012, 15:30

TTN, I'm glad to hear that you were not criticising the DFC Bomber veteran but rather the decision to alter the WWII Campaign Medal awarding criteria, but the fact remains they have been altered. Just as all the airspace over occupied territory was eligible for the Aircrew Star, so all the Northern Seas, ie the Atlantic and Arctic Oceans, were eligible for the Atlantic Star. Now it seems those two seas are to provide for separate medals. If that is the case, why should not the airspace of the occupied nations of Western Europe and those of the far more dangerous and well defended airspace of the Reich and Eastern Europe be similarly separated medal wise?
You have a point about the wisdom of retrospective tampering, but that it seems is what is afoot, in which case the tampering should be even handed at least. To put the Strategic Bombing Campaign on a par with the Battle of Britain by allotting clasps to each is a nonsense. The clue is in their titles, one was a Campaign, the other was not. The uneven and unfair decision of handing the Arctic Sailors their long sought after medal while denying the same to the Bombers does indeed add "insult to injury" in my view.

pzu

22nd Dec 2012, 15:48

Chugalug2 - "Just as all the airspace over occupied territory was eligible for the Aircrew Star"

Not quite - 205 Group Italy, operations ranging over Poland (Warsaw Airlift), Germany (Munich). Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania (inc Ploesti), Bulgaria, Yugoslavia (inc mining Danube), Albania, Greece and Italy also France (Operation Dragoon) not eligible for Aircrew Europe or France & Germany!!!

and officially my Dad (A/G, RAFVR attached 34 then 31 Sqd SAAF), wasn't permitted to wear his Polish medals either!!!

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Chugalug2

22nd Dec 2012, 16:20

You make the point far better than I could, pzu. How could Air Operations against the enemy in the areas you list not be eligible for the Aircrew Europe Star (particularly Ploesti!)? It seems that these post WWII decisions were both arbitrary and unfair. Naturally the unfairness rankles with those involved in specific campaigns (such as the European Strategic Bombing one) who received a generic rather than specific campaign medal. What is far worse is to be involved in operations within the generic medal's supposed criteria, only to be denied it completely! I sympathise with your Dad and his comrades if they were denied any such campaign Star.

pzu

22nd Dec 2012, 18:52

They received the Italy Star, which was 'expanded' to include Balkan operations

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Pontius Navigator

22nd Dec 2012, 19:34

emeritus, no one seems to have answered your question. (Sorry Tocsin missed your post).

This seems to be an appropriate forum to make some enquiries about medals/campaign ribbons.

1 Can anyone recommend any books that will explain the basics of decorations.

Book, no, but this link is a good starting point. Currently authorised medals (http://justmedals.com/current.html)

There are decorations such as the VC, GC, DSC, DFC, AFC and GM, DSM, DCM, AFM. The difference was that officers got the crosses and other ranks the medals. the exception was the VC. Then more recently this differentiation was abolished. Awards such as MBE, OBE, CBE, KCBE in the military are rank related with the C and K being automatic.

Turning to campaign medals, there were just the 3 in WW1. In WW2 there were 7 campaign medals with a maximum of 5 to anyone person. If that person would have qualified for more then they were given a clasp to add to one of the others. My father qualified for 6 but only got the Pacific clasp to add to the Burma Star and the France and Germany clasp to add to the Atlantic Star.

Then there were other medals such as the coronation and jubilee medals, general service medals with different forces such as the RN and police having different ribbons. Latterly there have been many more campaigns.

2 Is it my imagination that the Americans and Russians always seem to have decorations all over their uniforms.

Several other countries have a lot more medals that Commonwealth countries. This might be on the box-top basis to try and play match-up. Gaddaffi was a case in point as was Idi (Walt) Amin.

Now the Americans are something different and that could justify a book. Some are awarded where a unit receives a citation. Now I challenge anyone to accurately read the salad dressing and say what the all mean.

clicker

22nd Dec 2012, 23:24

I heard once that anyone in the US forces would get a medal just for being more than 3000 miles from base while on duty, regardless why.

Don't know how true that is but its believeable.

Climebear

23rd Dec 2012, 06:03

I heard once that anyone in the US forces would get a medal just for being more than 3000 miles from base while on duty, regardless why.

Don't know how true that is but its believeable.

Mind you, 2 of mine were awarded just because I was serving when HM the Queen had a couple of jubilees.

Pontius Navigator

23rd Dec 2012, 09:00

An interesting variation is why we have a general service medal. In the Army/RAF there was one before 1962 and one after 1962 with many different bars added to them. It would have been logical to continue with the GSM for Sierra Leone etc.

The Falklands would appear to be the first of the new medals, and well deserved at that, followed by the GW1 medal. From then we see a raft of NATO, UN, and then OSM issued which mark our change of military from largely stand-alone to a coalition partner.

Will the GSM series ever be resumed or will it eventually fade away?

emeritus

23rd Dec 2012, 11:10

Tocsin / PN...

Many thanks for the info. Will follow up on your suggestions.

Emeritus.

Mahogany_Bomber

23rd Dec 2012, 13:31

I've worked with Americans of all services in my time and now that I understand their system of medals, ribbons and badges I'm a fan.

Firstly don't try and compare it with the UK system, they are apples and pears and what works for them might not work for us and vice versa. With the US system you get to see an individual's military CV on their chest, especially useful when in a meeting and needing to ascertain someone's credibility or walking into an office or ops room and needing to ascertain who is the "go to" guy.

At Aviano I went to the MT office accompanying a USAF officer who looked around and then walked across to a particular airman, asked a series of complicated questions, got the answers he needed, thanked the individual and walked out. As we walked to our car he said how easy it had proven to be once he spotted the Outstanding Airman ribbon on the airman's chest as he knew he would be a quality individual able to deal with his particularly obscure query.

In my opinion the US system is neither better or worse, simply different.

Climebear

23rd Dec 2012, 14:25

Pontius Navigator

23rd Dec 2012, 15:19

Roger the cabin boy

23rd Dec 2012, 19:44

Interesting information. May I ask a couple of questions of this audience?

Why wasn't an OSM issued for TELIC; instead of what became the Iraq Medal? It was after Bliar's edict that the GSM be replaced by the OSM after all. Anyone know?

Again, genuine question - on medals, why isn't there a differentiation between those who serve in combat roles vs those in support roles? I'm thinking like the SAMA82 rosette when applied to troops in FOBs for 6 months vs blokes like me living in comfort in Bastion for 2 months on 1310 Flt?

Anyone know?

Roger the cabin boy

23rd Dec 2012, 19:45

Interesting information. May I ask a couple of questions of this audience?

Why wasn't an OSM issued for TELIC; instead of what became the Iraq Medal? It was after Bliar's edict that the GSM be replaced by the OSM after all. Anyone know?

Again, genuine question - on medals, why isn't there a differentiation between those who serve in combat roles vs those in support roles? I'm thinking like the SAMA82 rosette, when applied now to troops in FOBs for 6 months vs blokes like me living in comfort in Bastion for 2-3 months on 1310 Flt?

Anyone know?

Sloppy Link

23rd Dec 2012, 20:29

Roger,
Q1 is fairly straightforward, OSM is issued whilst the campaign is ongoing. Iraq, like SAM, like Granby were all medals issued after hostilities had ceased (the ongoing counter-insurgency in Iraq maintained that medal without clasp).

Q2 is already there, OSM for Afghanistan is quite complex, it is possible to receive the medal without the Afghanistan clasp and serving memory shows similar in the past, Granby could be issued without the clasp and as you say SAM without the rosette to indicate service outside of the combat zone. Your rationale creates more animosity than solves. Some can go to a FOB, never leave it and have fighting soldiers protecting them whilst those in Bastion can be protecting its occupants and possibly be in greater danger than the individual in the FOB, this is why the boundaries set are quite broad.

Pontius Navigator

23rd Dec 2012, 21:40

Or Ascension, or Cyprus, or Northwood?

Where do you draw the line?

I was about 300 miles away from an enemy parachute landing and 150 miles from a potentially hostile air base, we were ate readiness to launch on several occasions. It was suggested we should not get the GSM. Naturally groundcrews at our base were not similarly advised.

Or my daughter, having done 4 years in the reserves thought she should not apply for a veteran's badge.

Lima Juliet

23rd Dec 2012, 23:47

Armstrong, Miller, Mitchell and Webb - WW2 Pilots - Red Nose Day 2009 - YouTube

langleybaston

24th Dec 2012, 09:02

Quote: Turning to campaign medals, there were just the 3 in WW1.

I beg to differ, if Campaign is taken as a subset of War, as in "Burma", Africa" etc.

The 1914 star was, and the 1914-15 star was at a pinch, a campaign medal, although the latter was awarded to RN [for example] out of the F&F area.

The British War Medal was just that: not a campaign in any sense that I infer above ........... all theatres, all periods.

The Victory medal was specifically to commemorate the Victory, a victory in war, not a campaign.

And the Mercantile Marine medal could be earned any time, anywhere, for a single voyage in a danger zone.

So I make that one, or just possibly two Campaign medals.

The maximum wearable was four, if [unlikely but not impossible ...... I know of no cases but you can bet they existed!] a 1914 or 1915 soldier or RM was discharged and then went to sea.

Heathrow Harry

24th Dec 2012, 09:12

http://www.polarimagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Kenny.jpg

Tankertrashnav

24th Dec 2012, 09:47

The maximum wearable was four, if [unlikely but not impossible ...... I know of no cases but you can bet they existed!] a 1914 or 1915 soldier or RM was discharged and then went to sea.

I have certainly seen WW1 groups of four, but these were awarded to members of the RNR, some of whom qualified for the 1914-15 Star and Victory Medal in addition to the usual Merchant Navy entitlement of the Mercantile Marine medal and the British War Medal.

langleybaston

24th Dec 2012, 10:10

Thank you: there you go then!

Those groups of four would, I suggest, include NO campaign medal as such.

[Indeed, the much discussed, never issued, Dardanelles Medal would have been such a campaign medal]

Tankertrashnav

24th Dec 2012, 12:27

Further to my last, I have just heard from my collector friend (the one who does medal mounting, whom some of you will already know) and he tells me he has a group of four with the 1914 Star and bar to a chap who had served in the Army Service Corps, been discharged and then joined the Merchant Navy. Definitely a scarce combination.

As you say, L-B - not campaign medals in the strict sense of the word, but generally described as such.

Whenurhappy

26th Dec 2012, 09:05

Further to my earlier postings, I received the Spink Manual for the Wearing of Orders, decorations and Medals as a Chrimbo Pressie. I wish I had it to hand when this visiting Wg Cdr had got a bit uppity!

teeteringhead

26th Dec 2012, 09:46

I wish I had it to hand when this visiting Wg Cdr had got a bit uppity! ... all you really needed was Chapter 8 to AP 1358. (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/964889F4_C3AB_9A3C_BA2550C49D7A67EA.pdf) What a plonker said Wing Co must have been - bad enough getting "uppity" when you're right!

One recalls an aged rockape officer at Hampshire's Secret Helicopter base in the early '70s, who was frequently "advised" that his pre-'62 GSM ribbon should come after his WW2 ribbons - until he pointed out it was for Palestine in 1936!

But one has recently seen an MoD Staff Officer, with all of 2 Jubilee Medals, who managed to get them the wrong way round! :ugh:

Climebear

26th Dec 2012, 12:37

CB, thank you. The point is that the GSM and clasps has been replaced by the OSM with different ribbons and medals for each campaign. So, where with the GSM you could only read a serviceman's record when wearing the full medal now the there are different ribbons for each too.

Why did they decide to bring about this change? A change brought about during the previous Government.

I've been trying to find out the 'why' for you. Although my ability research is limited as I'm currently in a desert, I can't find the 'why' in the relevant JSP or DINs: only the when - 1 Jan 00. Sorry.

I suppose that you can now tell a serviceman's record just from the ribbons rather than the particular medal.

Back to the rows bit. I do recall an air officer who managed to wear his 3 ribbons on 2 rows.

Heathrow Harry

26th Dec 2012, 12:43

you could make a good case for finding out who spent half his life writing that Chapter 8 document and forcing him/her to spend the rest of their life doing something useful

Old-Duffer

28th Dec 2012, 06:23

Going back to WWI medals, was there not something called the Territorial Force Medal? The ribbon looked a bit like the 'Kenya GSM' with black and gold in it.

As to comments about 'pre-war GSM'. I seem to recall that that the 'GSM 1919' came as 'first' or 'second' issue and the same ribbon was used in each case. As we know the 'Campaign Service Medal' simply reversed the colours and changed their width a bit. Incidentally, the last clasp for the old GSM was Brunei. It was only in issue for something like a month (Dec 62) and it required just one day in theatre - rather the usual 30. Up to that point the RN/RM had their own GSM but this medal and the Army/Air Force version were then combined.

As to medals being worn the wrong way round, in 1975 I stood at the Cenotaph next to an old soldier wearing the DCM and MM, along with a shed load of others. When I asked why his MM was in front of the DCM he told me it was because of the date they had been awarded! I checked up on him later and he was genuine, just a bit confused.

Drifting the Thread slightly, I attended a BofB ceremony in a church near where I was based and the serving officers were in the front pews with the veterans behind. As I entered my allotted pew, I glanced towards the veterans and there staring back at me was an impressive array: DSO, DFC, AFC and bar - most humbling - only beaten by the bit afterwards when the stash was given his wreath, in the shape of the pilots' flying badge'; which he then turned upside down before laying it on the war memorial - talk about Edna Everidge's spectacles!!!!

Old Duffer

Whenurhappy

28th Dec 2012, 07:17

TTN - this same Wg Cdr had his 2 Balkans Medals (Kosovo and FRY) plated to look shiny ...

My office has bookshelves creaking with all manner of interesting books and publications (and those who knew me in MB also knew I extended beyond my allocated 1.6 m 'linear storage'). A copy of the Spinks manual, lying on my crowded desk-top, will now send a suitable warning to those who think they are right...unfortunately a hyperlink to an AP doesn't have the same Gravitas!

Pontius Navigator

28th Dec 2012, 09:37

Going back to WWI medals,

. . . As to comments about 'pre-war GSM'. . . .

As to medals being worn the wrong way round, in 1975 I stood at the Cenotaph next to an old soldier wearing the DCM and MM, along with a shed load of others. When I asked why his MM was in front of the DCM he told me it was because of the date they had been awarded!

My grandfather was very specific on the order of his medals and as well as the two bars of 5 he wrote out the list too. He had his GSM after his MSM and before his Croix de Guerre.

Worcestershire medals were adamant that the GSM should follow the 1914-1919 Great War medal and before the Delhi Durbar. With the exception of the CdeG the medals were originally in date order with only the MC put at the front. Maybe this 'incorrect' order reflected a shortage of toilet paper.

Now one may have been historically correct whereas the other was correct for the time. To posthumously alter the order to the proper sequence is, I believe, wrong.

Tankertrashnav

28th Dec 2012, 10:23

Going back to WWI medals, was there not something called the Territorial Force Medal? The ribbon looked a bit like the 'Kenya GSM' with black and gold in it.

The Territorial Force War Medal is the scarcest of the WW1 campaign medals (pace langleybaston ;) ), only c 34,000 were awarded. It was only awarded to those members of the Territorial Force who served on active service up to 30 September 1914. It is not possible to have this medal and the 1914 Star, the two are mutually exclusive.

Incidentally the 'Kenya GSM' you refer to was the Africa General Service Medal, which, prior to Kenya had last been awarded for the Nyasaland campaign of 1915, a record gap between clasps on a British campaign medal.

Pontius Navigator

28th Dec 2012, 12:36

My wife's grandfather was in the Territorial Force from 1911 but At outbreak of the Great War, 5 Aug 1914 to 5 Mar 1915 he served at Home, and therefore did not qualify for the TFM although On 1 Sep 1914 he signed papers agreeing that as a territorial he could be sent on overseas service.

There were lots of family rumours of battle in which he served - all wrong as he was only in France from Mar 15 to Jan 16. The only time he might have been gassed (family rumour) was at Loos on 25 Sep 15. Interestingly on 26 Sep 15 he signed papers declining the offer of extending his service. He later joined the RNPS.

Tankertrashnav

28th Dec 2012, 14:44

Although the TFWM is very scarce, somewhat commoner is the Imperial Service Badge which was awarded to Territorials who volunteered for overseas service. This was a pin-back badge, worn above the breast pocket. Your grandfather would have had one of these, P-N.

http://militarybadgecollection.com/wp-content/gallery/ta-1762-2400/Imperial%20Service%20badge.JPG

Pontius Navigator

28th Dec 2012, 15:50

Other awards in WW2 were white feathers. My father had one and I still have the other awarded to my uncle.

My father was in the merchant navy and wearing civvies when at home on survivor's leave. My uncle was a Sgt in the ANZAC forces in Borneo. :)

Chugalug2

28th Dec 2012, 21:13

The Merchant Seamen could with some justification call themselves the real forgotten heroes of WWII . I recall that in the World at War episode dealing with the Battle of the Atlantic, one of their veterans recounted of being home in a blitzed Liverpool on shore leave. He was waiting at a bus stop when a woman took the trouble to cross the road to spit in his face, remarking that at his age he should be in uniform. He was in civvies of course.
Those, like your father PN, who were survivors had a double indemnity. As soon as they abandoned their torpedoed sinking ship, their pay stopped. The remaining time spent in a lifeboat (weeks often) was at their expense and not their employer's.

Pontius Navigator

29th Dec 2012, 09:47

Chug, quite true. After my father escaped from Java, being neither military or female they were not a priority, he landed in Oz where he alternated jobs with one of the other officers alternately sewing mail bags (blistered hands) or treading grapes (blistered feet). Once he reached the USA things improved and they were well looked after before he managed to get a passage home. I was born 9 months later.

On that World at War episode dealing with the Battle of the Atlantic there was one episode tacked on at the end which dealt with merchant seamen. In one scene there are a crowd of sailors clamouring for a ship - it might have been in Halifax NS. Suddenly, like the parting of the seas, my father entered, head and shoulders under everyone else but wearing his uniform cap. He was only 5ft 6in but there he was unmistakable. My elder daughter, aged about 7, looked up and said "that's my granddad".

I wonder if that series is available in the net or to buy?

Chugalug2

29th Dec 2012, 21:25

PN:
I wonder if that series is available in the net or to buy?
A quick search on Google confirms that it is and that Zavvi.com are offering the complete "Ultimate Restored Collection" at £14.95 delivered. I'd put the link in but suspect that I have already overstepped PPRuNe's line in the sand. In a grovelling defence I would simply say that this series from 1973 has never been surpassed in the video coverage of WWII from beginning to end. If you haven't yet seen it, get it!

Pontius Navigator

29th Dec 2012, 21:29

Thank you.

ceedub

9th Jan 2013, 13:56

A friend of mine who is in his 90's and living in Canada was with Bomber Command and his wife has asked me how she may obtain a medal for him. All I can find is a website that sells them but surely they should have been given out auto to aircrew et al ?

Thanks for any gen on this.

Pontius Navigator

9th Jan 2013, 14:04

cee, not yet I think is the answer.

Have her contact SPVA and register his name and address.

Veterans-UK (http://www.veterans-uk.info/)

Bevo

9th Jan 2013, 23:53

Several of the world’s militaries are going to have to start issuing more award/medals to keep up with the North Koreans.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r209/TurboBob/Military/NorthKoreanMilitaryMedals_zps7714ecd2.jpg

dctyke

10th Jan 2013, 06:59

I see the man three down lets everybody down by putting his medal on the wrong trouser leg........ must be aircrew :ooh:

BEagle

10th Jan 2013, 08:09

Surely it's a willy-gong?

Lord knows what he did to win that!

Heathrow Harry

10th Jan 2013, 16:38

no problem THERE in identifying SO's...

wonder if they have them on the back as well??

CoffmanStarter

10th Jan 2013, 18:18

Bunch of Muttley's the lot of em :}

BEagle ... That's General Willy Gong to you and me :}

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2009/362/f/f/Muttley__s_Medal_by_altergromit.png

CoffmanStarter

10th Jan 2013, 19:12

Perhaps North Korean tailors need to have a chat with Melvin Bombtheba$tard$ tailor ...

All done in the best possible taste ...

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dMHDBL7CNA4/0.jpg

Dunky

11th Jan 2013, 10:23

Quote:
I wonder if that series is available in the net or to buy?
A quick search on Google confirms that it is and that Zavvi.com are offering the complete "Ultimate Restored Collection" at £14.95 delivered. I'd put the link in but suspect that I have already overstepped PPRuNe's line in the sand. In a grovelling defence I would simply say that this series from 1973 has never been surpassed in the video coverage of WWII from beginning to end. If you haven't yet seen it, get it!

A bit late to mention this, but this version, which is also available on Blu Ray, as well as DVD, suffers from cropping issues. Better to get the 'Special Collectors Edition' on DVD, like mine, which I have had since its release in 2003.

Also worth getting is The Great War, the forerunner of the above, and set the format for it, with interviews of survivors and footage of the events. Additionally, WW1 in Colour is well worth watching, don't bother with WWII in Colour though, quite a different thing altogether.

Straying further off topic, I wonder why the BBC do not show the latter in the lead up to November 11th. There appears to be quite a sizeable number of people who have no idea about WW1, and even less interest in learning about it. Do they even teach this at school any more?