Landing lights

[stephenkeane]

I am only a mere flight simmer and commercial aviation enthusiast. Flew for the 1st time as a passenger in a Hermes.Can someone tell me please when on your final (DME) do you switch on the landing lights. Also does fog or low cloud alter this figure. I am very sorry to put such an obvious question on here, but I can't find the answer anywhere. I would appreciate a definitive reply though.

[HighSpeedAluminum]

FWIW, my last 3 companies policy in actual Cat 3b weather was to use the lights (as you don't need to see runway to land) and you need the lights to safely exit.

[TypeIV]

In my company in a JAA-land we simply put them off at 10 000ft QNH or FL. And we put them on when descending through the same altitude. On final approach the pilot flying can also command the retractable landing lights on. Also some say that the landing lights can scare birds in vicinity of the runway :8

[BOAC]

In my company in a JAA-land we simply put them off at 10 000ft QNH or FL. - is that regardless of traffic? Even if descending into a busy TMA you leave them off until 10,000ft? Simply is right!:ugh:

[Agaricus bisporus]

Post no 2 presumably refer to US standards...

No "rules" in UK or EU that I am aware of.

Good practice dictates their use as appropriate. Seldom used above FL100, traditionally by consensus always used below FL100 in controlled airspace. Some operators using retractable lights (usually newer companies who tend to "know better" than the rest of the established industry) have recently developed a bizarre habit of turning them off - ie retracting them - apparently on a fuel-saving basis almost immediately after take off even in the most crowded airspace. This is apparently done on the basis of an assumed miniscule fuel saving (ie brownie points) instead of maintaining good visibility and conformity with everyone else, ie airmanshi...shi!...shi!!

Oh Bugger! I said it again!

I'll get my yellow roadmender's coat.

[RTN11]

Ours go on when below MSA, so off with the climb checks after take off and on with the approach checks when cleared to an altitude.

Then when you are cleared to land you put the taxi lights on, as a reminder that you have been cleared so you're both in the loop.

[flyburg]

Sjeez BOAC,

Why always so cynical? You could use your tons and tons of experience to actually contribute your insights on here instead of flaming everybody!!

Indeed in JAA country most part A's say to have landing lights on below 10.000 ft. This is not written in stone! Descending into say, LHR and getting a hold with multiple airplanes above and below, it makes senses to turn them on earlier. Same for flying in the US where GA airplanes routinely fly VFR above 10.000', or some of the countries worldwide where ATC isn't what you come to expect in Northern Europe or the US or what ever.

Then you may also have a discussion about TCAS, which I'm sure didn't exist when you learned to fly and busier airspace which is relieved by modern navigation systems and more head down time to program stuff. Etc, etc.

Some people with low experience come on here to ask questions to genuinely improve their airmanship!!! Instead, you chase them away with your cynical remarks!!

Good on you!

[de facto]

Then when you are cleared to land you put the taxi lights on, as a reminder that you have been cleared so you're both in the loop.

The taxi light,such a gmultipurpose light,:),some use it for take off,some for landing,some as a reminder for landing(first time i hear),some for deicing,some maybe as a reminder that dinner hasnt been served.
Come on:ugh:
A hot taxi light does NOT like vibration during take off and landing.

More and more use the LANDING lights for taxi,the wing lights for walk around...please stop this:mad:

[Denti]

The companies i've worked for had the same basic SOP for lights. On below FL100, logo lights only at night. Outboard landing lights (retractable) on with landing and take off clearance, off with flaps up after take off. Which leaves the inboard landing lights and runway turnoff lights on during flight below FL100, other times at pilots discretion.

[MarkerInbound]

No, there's no rule in FAA land. The FAA AIM recommends having them on below 10,000 but no rule.


4.3.23.c.
The FAA has a voluntary pilot safety program, Operation Lights On, to enhance the see−and−avoid concept. Pilots are encouraged to turn on their landing
lights during takeoff; i.e., either after takeoff clearance has been received or when beginning takeoff roll. Pilots are further encouraged to turn on their landing lights when operating below 10,000 feet, day or night, especially when operating within 10 miles of any airport, or in conditions of reduced visibility and in areas where flocks of birds may be expected, i.e., coastal areas, lake areas, around refuse dumps, etc. Although turning on aircraft lights does enhance the see−and−avoid concept, pilots should not become complacent about keeping a sharp lookout for other aircraft. Not all aircraft are equipped with lights and some pilots may not have their lights turned on. Aircraft manufacturer’s recommendations for operation of landing lights and electrical systems should be observed.

[sheppey]

My pet hate is those idiots that leave the landing lights on in cloud at night effectively causing distraction and loss of night visual acuity. Not only is it bad manners to the captive audience in the other seat but is the equivalent of SHOUTING on the internet. It is also plain stupid bogan-like:mad:

[Tu.114]

With my company, it is about the same as Denti has written. The books require the landing lights on from the beginning of the takeoff run up to FL100 and again descending through FL100 until vacating the runway; type dependent, the taxi light or on the DH8 the Flare light (the innner landing lights that are tilted a bit more downwards) and the Taxi Light come on upon reception of the takeoff clearance until gear retraction and upon reception of the landing clearance with the Flare Light going off together with the landing lights and the taxi light used until coming to a standstill.

This is of course only the minimum requirement and it is by all means not forbidden to use the lights in other situations if deemed necessary to make ones presence more obvious. For example when sharing the airspace with VFR traffic (airspace category E comes to mind here!), in a holding or as well in some rare occasions on the ground e. g. when preparing for an intersection takeoff a bit down a long runway and seeing a landing traffic trying to turn head-to-head into the exit You are just waiting in.

[TypeIV]

- is that regardless of traffic? Even if descending into a busy TMA you leave them off until 10,000ft? Simply is right!

Yep, that's right. Nowadays we have a system called TCAS (Traffic collision avoidance system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system)) that works great. I don't know how it was back in the Zeppeliner days when you used to be involved in aviation :}

[BOAC]

In which case, clever clogs, do you have any idea what the lights go on for? Why bother (apart from mindless addiction to SOPs)? Birds at 10,000ft?

What is TCAS? I could not open the link.

[PENKO]

The go off after takeoff, when the flaps are retracted. The go on on final approach. Or on at any time below 10.000 feet if the captain feels the urge.

European Airline.

[BOAC]

Let's answer the OP?

There is no hard and fast rule, stephen, except for mindless automatons who switch them on and off at 10,000' +/- 1 ft because the book says so.

Lights are there to be used by the crew. They can be used to determine if you are in cloud at night (for icing reasons), for aiding anti-collision, for alerting aircraft on an airfield that you are about to either take-off or land, trying to alert birds to your presence, as a 'reminder' to crews of a particular ATC clearance and probably a few other reasons, not forgetting actually 'landing'.:)

PS Did you mean the HP Hermes?

[Agaricus bisporus]

Yep, that's right. Nowadays we have a system called TCAS (Traffic collision avoidance system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) that works great. I don't know how it was back in the Zeppeliner days when you used to be involved in aviation

This is what we're up against!

25yr olds who know best because they have been taught to fly by stimulus and reflex like Pavlovs dogs. Flaps up = lights off, allegedly because it saves fuel if you believe such tosh! Clearly a litre or two of Jet A1 is more important than being seen...even in the London TMA! Weaving in and out of those stacks full of responsible aviators all with their lights on wrapped in a comfortable bubble of TCAS-induced complacency because only dithering old Zeppeliners are quaint enough to look outside. "Why? We're in controlled airspace, aren't we? We don't need to!" "We could be in cloud". No shred of questioning, wondering why everyone else has lights on, why not me. It saves fuel! And they'll carefully remind you (dithering old non-commercial fool that you are not to have realised it yourself) that even if it saves a litre then a litre times x hundred sectors in the company per day times 365 times $ equals half the national debt. QED. They have even been programmed to - damn, I nearly said "think" - that's the one thing they have specifically programmed NOT to do - programmed to react like the reptilian grey-faced accountants that spawn this sort of bolleaux in the office.

The mere fact that anyone thinks there is or should be a rigid "procedure" laid down for use of lights is a good indication that there is a problem - it should be second nature, judgement and those unmentionable heretical words at the end of this post. Lights do not need a rigid procedure - surely that is so blindingly obvious it doesn't even need to be stated? But apparently not...

I suppose this is an inevitable result of manufacturing pilots instead of growing them. Logic; Everything is done by numbers and "procedure" thus all procedures are equally important. So how landing lights are used is of equal seriousness and importance as achieving a stabilised approach or giving an endless exhaustive five minute OPC sim brief for departure from base with a slot looming and time is of the essence. There's no judgement, flexibility or sense of scale or relative importance involved.

You know, this time I'm going to put on my yellow roadmenders coat and then say it out loud. Shout it!

AIRMANSHIP!

AIRMANSHIP!

AIRMANSHIP!

Capt Zeppelin. ;)

edit, to add;

Markerinbound's post No 11 above presents the lights philosophy perfectly, and guess where from? The land of practical aviation! Straight from the FAA's mouth. Perfect! Thanks Marker - spot on.

[BOAC]

Ag Bis - if I might join the 'yellowjacks'? Chuck in the sheer number of bright young things who had NO idea where they were without a CRT display and NO idea how to use a PLOG to find out. Grr! At least on Zepps we knew which way the wind was blowing...............

[His dudeness]

So you're saying you held the same opinions at 25 as you have now?

You have not learned a thing ever since.

Blimey.


Sorry stephen as you can see there is no definite answer to this. Lots of differently equipped airplanes and to many willy wavers in here....

I do fly corperate and we usually switch the landing lights to pulse (they pulsate on and off) passing FL100 in the descent. We could use 3 different settings: landing lights: full power on the lights, recognition lights which is a reduced power setting, apparently leading to a longer bulb life and the pulse lights, which operate at the reduced setting. They (pulse lights) are switched on by the TCAS automatically should we come into a warning zone, meaning too close for comfort. (with a RA for the pros)
At night we use tailflood lights below 100. too.

Below 100 can mean a heck of a lot different distances to go to the threshold.

If one goes into London or my homebase in Germany, ATC will descend you way out, one regurlary sees 60-80nm below 100, if I fly into, e.g. Kryvih Rih in Ukraine it could be like 25 miles out, if I have my sporty day it might be as close as 20 nm...

On another Type I flew we had taxi/landing lights mounted to the gear and recognition lights on the wing tips. These were used below 100 and the landing lights switched on with landing clearance.

[DavidWoodward]

I love how threads on PPRuNe escalate into this when the OP asked a very innocent question.

[Tourist]

Most of the aircraft into Heathrow put the landing lights on when the gear comes down at 4 DME.

I say this because the largest number of aircraft into Heathrow are the BA 319/320/321 and normal BA SOP on that fleet is to put them on then.

[BOAC]

Tourist - the OP did ask about landing lights but this has now drifted into the 'other' lights'. BA will be religiously sticking the inboards and logo on and off at 10000ft +/-1 ft 'cos it's in the book and the landing lights with the gear as you say.

This is not written in stone! Descending into say, LHR and getting a hold with multiple airplanes above and below, it makes senses to turn them on earlier. - thanks heavens for one bit of sense in your post.

I see TypeIV has been unable to answer the question.

As de facto says - turning on any gear mounted taxy light for landing or take-off is NOT a good idea.

[betpump5]

Our company, any level change we use landing lights- Day or Night.

So climbing to 410 we will have landing lights on all the way, same for descent. And any step changes.

The only time we don't bother are the 100ft changes going from metric altitudes to imperial.

[PENKO]

Also in IMC? Or do you not step in IMC?:E

[EpsilonVaz]

A320 series are mounted below the wing root and swing down when you switch them on, they cause vibration at 250kts+.

[betpump5]

Penko forgive me for being slow.

What is your point?

[stephenkeane]

:) Thanks for all your very informative replies, take off rolls and FL100 seems to be the consensus of opinion. Are landing lights on/off part of the checklists? If so then surely there is no discretion. Would ATC raise a problem if on a bright sunny day an aircraft landed with no landing lights on?

[Tu.114]

Here, lights are not mentioned in any checklist and supposed to be switched by heart.

VIE ATC often has the phrase "Aircraft on Final shall use landing lights" on ATIS, mostly when runways 11 and 16 are in simultaneous use for landing, and one occasionally hears colleagues admonished for travelling in darkness on the radio. Other fields may have their own regulations, for example TRN wants taxiing traffic to display the landing lights as well - they are not exactly strict about this though.

[PENKO]

betpump, it just seems to me a bit overkill to switch on your landing lights during every level change. Do you do your flying in an area with known uncontrolled and untransponderd traffic at FL350?

A glance at my TCAS display will tell me more about the traffic situation than landing lights going on and off all around me during the cruise. And when there really is a conflict, you should follow TCAS anyway, ignoring what you see outside.

[betpump5]

I agree with you PENKO. And its overkill IMO to keep ldg lights on till 410 when it appears the rest of the world are turning them off at 10'000.

But i am a non management pilot who just wants an easy ride during line checks! It is certainly true in my company that new management pilots tend to fiddle with SOPs just to put their mark on things!

[PENKO]

Understood:ok: