Lightning vs Harrier 1v1

[ex-fast-jets]

On Harrier squadrons in the 70's, we used to put our JP's on 1v1 against Lightnings to improve their confidence. Even to a Harrier JP, it was soooooo easy!!

A Fox3 for a Harrier JP against a Lightning - easy!!!

And the Lightning always ran out of petrol and had to go home early!!

:):)

[Tashengurt]

And it looks like you're still looking for a fight?

[CoffmanStarter]

Ding Ding ... Seconds Out !

[RedhillPhil]

I don't speak acronym - sorry. Is JP junior pilot? It's the grocer's apostrophe that's confusing me.

[Kluseau]

I'd been wondering what the offspring of a Harrier and a Jet Provost would look like!

[Wholigan]

Yep --- I think there's a good chance that Lightning Mate will bite to this thread! ;)

Oh and I imagine he'll be joined by newt. :E

[airpolice]

So, I'm reading this and thinking, how would a JP, even a JP5 manage in a fight against a Lightning? I suppose that just keep turning slowly and waiting ( a short time ) for the Lightning to run out of fuel is the best option.

Mind you, there is always the old, "You've shot both of your missiles so that's you out of the game now" call to fall back on.

[beardy]

8 minutes past nine on afraid day night, did your other friend go to harvest his mung beans?

[newt]

Oh Bomber!! Oh Bomber!!


The only time you ever frightened me was when you overflew my crash site and nearly took my head off!!

We all know that Harrier pilots were easy meat for even the most junior Lightning pilot! Especially in the bar!!

Have a nice Christmas and do keep on dreaming!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[glad rag]

8 minutes past nine on afraid day night, did your other friend go to harvest his mung beans?

Mongo like beans,,,,,,

[DBTW]

BomberH, this is scary! You told Newt it was coming and yet he still bit!!:uhoh:

Nothing from the target though!?

I suppose that's what Lightnings were then...targets you didn't get to see very often because they couldn't come out to play...

[Pure Pursuit]

Sounds like the RAF didnt progress very much between the Lightning and the Torndao F3 in terms of WVR fighting!

Harrier mates used to cheat (in a very gentlemanly manner of course) their way into the merge, pushing aside AMRAAMs with a level of contempt that only Bona mates could offer, before smashing the F3 mates with ease and aplomb!

Great fun to control either side. :ok:

[WhiteOvies]

Even easier was Sea Harrier vs F3 when FA2 had an AMRAAM and radar combination that actually worked... ;-)

[Dengue_Dude]

Excuse me while I compare this apple with that pear . . . .

[Lightning Mate]

Yep --- I think there's a good chance that Lightning Mate will bite to this
thread! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif


Oh and I imagine he'll be joined by newt. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Newt already has, but I'm not.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

..and the FA2 would have found its carrier several hundred feet lower than where it took off from without the F3 to help defend it.

Harrier in telephone box fight? Very nice. But wars aren't fought that way anymore, grandad.

[newt]

Now look what you have done Bomber!!

This could rumble on for years!!

Go on LM give them some flack! You know we were better than all the rest!!

[Lightning Mate]

I'm tending to lie low Newt.

[newt]

Never....... Not in your nature!!

Give em some stick. Remember, an ASBO is regarded as a badge of honour!!:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Pure Pursuit]

Was that a bite? I've seen bites before and that's what they look like..!

Don't feel upset, you should know that every member of this forum had nothing but respect for the F3 guys.

It can't have been easy being part of the Twenty Minuters and it took a brave man to do it. :E

[AR1]

I'm pleased to add some more fuel from afar by sort of quoting the 1(F) people from the Wittering Magazine in the late 80's. Where they announced the sad retirement of the Lightning with the 'last ever gun camera film' tag and the exciting arrival of the F2 with 'First ever gun camera film of'

Barry McGuigan didnt have wings, but if he did he'd have been a Harrier!

[acbus1]

Good to see we're keeping American hardware out of this.

[SOSL]

Where you bin L-M?

Rgds SOS

[Lightning Mate]

In jail for being rude to idiots. :uhoh:

[Courtney Mil]

Is the Gulag as bad as they say, LM?

[orionsbelt]

Surely the answer lies in the Falklands.
Please correctl me if I’m wrong but:

Of 31? deployed Harriers, 28 saw action and accounted for 31 Argentine aircraft shot down with no air-to-air losses themselves.
Including 7 Dagger’s shot down by Sea Harriers.

Given that the Lightning / Dagger are same era / technologies aeroplanes I think it answers the question.

***
Sorry LM, 7 years HFS Wittering, only 1 year on 29 Sqdn

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Nope, it just shows that the Argie Air Force Brass knew f#ck all about tactics.

[Bevo]

Good to see we're keeping American hardware out of this.
Well I could say the Harrier is more American hardware now than British hardware. At least in terms of flyable aircraft. :)

[Pontius]

..and the FA2 would have found its carrier several hundred feet lower than where it took off from without the F3 to help defend it.

Where's the 'haven't laughed so hard for ages' smiley?

I enjoy fantasy stories with my Crunchy Nut Cornflakes :)

[PARALLEL TRACK]

Once did DACT against a Lightning, a Harrier and F4 in the same sortie. Wiped the floor with all three of them both then flew back to ISK for SURPIC/VASTAC with some Buccs. He didn't fancy any 'doggers'!

[CoffmanStarter]

I came across this the other day ... the Artist describes it as an "English Electric Lightning F53 in BoB scheme with Vectored Thrust" ... Phwoar !

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/fantasy_4/F348_Lightning_Vector.jpg

VIFF'ing that might have been fun in full reheat :eek:

[BOAC]

Some artist! What is a 'BoB' scheme? At least with the vectored thrust the Lightning would have stood a chance against a Harrier (whoops........)

[ORAC]

Did 25 years as a Fighter Controller, best 2 years were at Staxton Wold working with the Binbrook wing. Following comments.

1. ACT is a knife fight in a telephone box, no one does it for real if they can help it. In the real world you snuck up behind the target* and shot him in the back. Historically over 90% of pilots shot down never saw who got them.

(*Ltg era, F4 onwards you took the BVR shot and blew through and re-attacked).

2. Harrier GR1/3/5/7, Jaguar, Buccaneer, Tornado GR1/4 were bombers. If you can force a bomber to drop his bombs and turn and fight you've done your job, he's failed in his mission. If you couldn't get the easy kill you let him go. He'd have to come back again tomorrow and you'd get a second go.

3. Of the 4 types above the hardest to kill, in descending order, were the Buccaneer, Jaguar, Tornado and Harrier.

a. Buccaneer would sit on the deck and was stealthy, very hard to detect. Biggest giveaway, till they caught on, was the wake they left on the sea surface. Fighters found it hard to get an IR mx lock and sh*t themselves trying to get a gun angle. The Buccaneer would run them out of fuel then carry on to the target.

b. The Jaguar, due to it's wing, was the worst of the lot in a fight and lost energy at a high rate in a turn with little thrust to make up for it; but it could go at a hell of a rate in a straight line and was reasonably difficult to detect. They had good tactics, having pairs in trail at lower heights, claiming a lot of kills on fighters who didn't see the last trail pair (see point 1).

c. Tornado fin was like a barn door, easy to detect and like a barn door visually, but with a good turn of speed, at least if it wasn't carrying the JP223.

d. Harrier had a large frontal aspect and was easy to detect and didn't have a great turn of speed. Roll out well behind and come in with a lot of overtake, if no shot go vertical, extend and do the same thing again.

If there was an aircraft that was virtually impossible to engage it was the A-10. Great mutual support and a tight turning circle. They'd circle the wagon train and pull to get a gatling gun shot if a fighter tried to get astern a wing man. Shortest Lightning sortie I ever controlled was a F3 during an exercise who merged with the A-10s off Spurn Head straight off the runway. He spent the next 5 minutes just about permanently in reheat and was Joker RTB in 9 minutes.

Reference the Falklands. The only radar equipped, Mirage 3, fighters were kept on the mainland to protect Buenos Aires. The Mirage 5 and Daggers were non-radar equipped and bombers. They were also operating 250+ miles from home with only 5-10 minutes over the Islands and had to stay low to keep out of the fleet radar and Sea Dart cover, thus also not getting any help from the TPS-43 radar at Stanley. The Shar was a cat amongst the pigeons.

The Lightning was fun to control but, in terms of AD effectiveness, was an anachronism. Only 2 rear aspect** IR Mx and, realistically, one kill; lousy endurance and a short range pulse radar. Compare that to the F-4 with 4 semi-active radar and 4 all aspect IR mx and a PD radar. (**I know the Redtop had a theoretical frontal capability :hmm: ).

And I got to fly in the T5 but not in the F-4 or F-3. :ok::ok:

[BOAC]

I would put the Vulcan pretty high on the list.

[ORAC]

I would put the Vulcan pretty high on the list. One on one. With 2 Lightnings the second could take the shot as the Vulcan turned with the first; and again only in the artificial ACT arena.

I remember the briefs from the pilots when planning a 1v1 single frequency sortie and trying to get an edge so the Vulcan wouldn't get visual and know when to start turning.

"if he's displaced left, call him displaced right and vice-versa. If he's displaced left, half the range, if displaced right, double the range".

More often than not the forgot what they'd asked for when they got airborne.....

[BOAC]

2 Lightnings - :eek: - crikey - a luxury!! You'll be telling me they had a tanker too, next........................:)

[ORAC]

Quote:
2 Lightnings
- - crikey - a luxury!!

4 ship CAP gave you the same number of kills as 1 x F4 but a lot more fun. :O

[newt]

I would put the Vulcan high on the list too BOAC.

But only at medium to high level where it could turn like hell! Get him at low level and it was a different story! Very poor lookout and nowhere to go!:{:{:{:{

[Lightning Mate]

Very poor lookout and nowhere to go!

Sounds a bit like you Newt. :E

[BOAC]

4 ship CAP :eek: - hallucinating again? My old SENGO would be having kittens.:)

[Lightning Mate]

Maybe on your outfit mate!

[BOAC]

Don't forget we had to provide real QRA........................:)

[Lightning Mate]

Silly me!......

[CoffmanStarter]

BOAC ... Ref my post at #31 ... I think the Artist was probably referring to WW2 type camouflage as opposed to a so called BofB scheme :ok:

Some other proper EE Lightnings drawn here by the same guy ...

RAF EE Lightnings (http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/ee_lightning/ee_lightning_001.html)

[Lightning Mate]

...and here's one drawn by me....

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/50th_zps7e349a22.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Nice LM :ok:

And on close inspection ... I find Pete Stone (RIP) far left.

http://www.lightningpilots.com/StoneNevilleGingell750.jpg

[Lightning Mate]

If you have not done so already, go to the site on my Lightning and you will find most people, those alive and those sadly not.

[CoffmanStarter]

Looking now ... great site LM :ok:

[newt]

Sounds a bit like you Newt:E

Sounds like your up for another ASBO LM:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Lightning Mate]

Have a great Christmas Newt.

I am determined to get to the 2013 Wiwol bash - trouble is I probably won't recognise many, except you of course - I shall head for the noise......

Cheers mate. :ok:

[Scruffy Fanny]

I won't rise to the bait but sat in front of me is a black and white roll of G90 film with my pitot probe firmly on the back of an Artic camouflaged Harrier from 4 Sqn - The trick was not to get slow with a Harrier and use the Lightning in the Vertical - I got shot down by lots of different aircraft but never a Jump Jet ! - For those of us on the LTF there was a very amusing carton of. Very Squashed Harrier with an F6 Lightning on its back with the caption jump now you little Fecker !!

[Pontius]

Buccaneer would sit on the deck and was stealthy, very hard to detect. Biggest giveaway, till they caught on, was the wake they left on the sea surface

I disagree; the best way to detect them was skyline them :)

Nice pic of a young Stoney. Great bloke to have a round, especially at the Wardroom Xmas bashes and very pleased the Dark Blue got to give him a decent toy to play with ;)

[Lightning Mate]

Scruffy Fanny,

I think this is the cartoon to which you referred.

I posted it on PPRuNe in 2009.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/scan0001-2_zpsb6137930.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

SF ... Let's have some pics then :ok:

Did the link on image posting help ?

Best ...

Coff.

[Scruffy Fanny]

LM that is indeed the one! Perhaps it came from Gutersloh? As the Ltg has checks on the nose? Coffman starter perhaps I can e mail you the pics and you can post as I don't have a drop box photo bucket account - the harrier gun shots are on cine film so scanning them might be an issue but can certainly e mail you Jpegs

[CoffmanStarter]

SF ... I would be pleased to help ... send away old chap !

Send a PM with your eMail address ...

Coff.

[Lightning Mate]

SF,

There's a little story behind that cartoon, which I can post if you wish.

[CoffmanStarter]

LM ... Please do.

Had a look through the names on the Web Site you mentioned ... I also knew Ted Girdler (ex RED's). Was expecting to see a John Powell. I believe he was an early Lightning Pilot (early 60's) who did some time at Cold Lake on the Lightning ... Lost touch with him over 30 years ago ...

Best

Coff.

[Lightning Mate]

The site relies upon ex-Lightning mates knowing about it and "checking in".

We still get people checking in after all these years.

Standby for the story......

[Lightning Mate]

The cartoon did indeed originate at Gutersloh - mid-70s

Lightning Mate bragging about the Lightnings' climb rate to 20,000 ft. Harrier Mate says he can do it faster. Bet on.....

Both aircraft from start-up to 20,000 ft.

Pilots start. Lightning taxies 1.5 miles to the threshold - Harrier is already at 10,000 ft after vertical take-off. Harrier won!

The cartoon was the result. :)

[Lightning Mate]

Heads up guys - I see Newts' green light on........

[noprobs]

Lightning Mate bragging about the Lightnings' climb rate to 20,000 ft. Harrier Mate says he can do it faster. Bet on.....

Both aircraft from start-up to 20,000 ft.

Pilots start. Lightning taxies 1.5 miles to the threshold - Harrier is already at 10,000 ft after vertical take-off. Harrier won!

There was a similar race to height at Wittering, F104 v Harrier. T-birds were used, with a pilot from the other team in the rear seat to check for blatant cheating. I watched from the ground, but I think that Bomber was closer, so maybe he'll share more details.

[newt]

Just checking on you LM. Good to see you are back on form!!

Not sure about this Harrier banter! I seem to remember an old joke about the difference between a Harrier pilot and a Harrier. Just can't recall the punchline!!

Keep up the good work LM and remember your promse to attend the next WIWOL reunion:ok:

[BOAC]

I disagree; the best way to detect them was skyline them - would that be periscope up or down....?:)

I once tried a guns attack on a Bucc and my hair has stayed grey.

[Wholigan]

Had a little look at your site LM and dwelt a little time on the "RIP" section. Amazing list of good mates, some of whom I had no idea had gone. Ah well, it comes to us all I guess, and at least they had all flown an awesome aircraft in their time. The only time I had the chance to give it a go was at Colt while we were there for a "lane" exercise from Chiv, and sadly it went u/s on start up. Always regretted that.

[Lightning Mate]

That's a great shame Wholi.

Slightly more thrust than the Jaguar..............

[Lightning Mate]

I once tried a guns attack on a Bucc and my hair has stayed grey.

Silly boy!

I seem to remember that a visual pickup could be made sometimes by the trails from the tailplane.

[CoffmanStarter]

First pic from SF ... Keep em coming mate :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/7-TC_zps5cf7b774.jpg

Coff.

PS. Had to reduce the image size to keep the MOD's happy :)

[Lightning Mate]

Really looking forward to more.

[CoffmanStarter]

No 2 (of 4) from SF ... Phwoar !

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/Book2_zps1d15e1b1.jpg

Best

Coff.

[Scruffy Fanny]

I'll post 4 - dont want to spoil you all!!

[ORAC]

Hmmm, ZU-BEY. Wanna buy her? (http://www.******************************/lightning/survivor.php?id=211)

[Lightning Mate]

Slightly inaccurate roundel paint job on that one.

Anyone care to tell why?

[BOAC]

Now that LM has raised the profile of Ed Durham's excellent site, it is pertinent to point out that Ed needs ALL 'missing' WIWOLS to email him to be added to the list.

On that tack, I have been trying for some time to find out what happened to Bernie Robert and Louis Eon, both FAF and both ex 23, who both appear to have died in non-Lightning air accidents, Bernie in 'Turkey'. If anyone knows I would appreciate a PM. I last saw Louis and his lovely wife in Bordeaux in the late 80's. Great guys.

[CoffmanStarter]

Final pics from SF :D

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/TC19_zps45874a76.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/TC27_zps8612b4d8.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/TC32_zpsa5eaf9d4.jpg

Any one got any idea how we might get SF's G90 film converted/uploaded ... easily ?

Best ...

Coff.

[Lightning Mate]

Any one got any idea how we might get SF's G90 film converted/uploaded ...
easily ?

I don't think there's any easy way except having it done professionally.

I have converted 35mm to jpeg images on my old scanner, but I don't think his film is 35mm, but I could be wrong.

[Lightning Mate]

If you like Lightning photos, this is one of my favourites.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/XR773_zpsa4016344.jpg

[Scruffy Fanny]

LM - your correct its G90 camera film - so tiny negatives in black and white - im pretty sure my scanner can cope but it might be a job for after Xmas- i do have a Radar film cassette from the spine - un developed anyone got any clues how i could get it developed- i guess all the RAF facilities to develop G90 wet film have long gone- Or does ANYONE have any Lightning radar film ?? As i need it for a future publication Many thanks Happy Xmas SF

[Scruffy Fanny]

yes thats one of mine as well !!!!

[Lightning Mate]

So now I know who you are.

So just what are you drinking? Looks green to me.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/15_zpsd27ccce9.jpg

[Scruffy Fanny]

Well it could be someone else !- Sadly i only learnt the trick of how to take the lost shot near the end. Both of you sit in Line astern- select burner then do a barrel roll - gives some nice results and is fairly safe!- Ive got a million more shots but they will have to wait till 2013 - work beckons - sadly-

[Lightning Mate]

Work....work??

Ain't you retired now?

[Skeleton]

LM

I use this to convert slides/film negatives.

Wolverine F2D300 35mm to Digital Converter F2D300 B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/758586-REG/Wolverine_F2D300_7_3_Megapixel_35mm_Negatives.html)

[Lightning Mate]

Thank you, but it's CS who is trying to do it, and the Lightning film isn't 35mm format.

[Skeleton]

DOH....... Drink and PC don't mix, sorry.

[Lightning Mate]

Wot you on tonight then?

[Skeleton]

Nice drop of home brew, may have to have a malt later. :ok::ok::ok:

[Lightning Mate]

Make sure it's a Macallan then.

[Skeleton]

All these years and hes still telling me what to do. :D

[Scruffy Fanny]

i wish call min 12 years 254 days 5 hours and 6 minutes not that im counting - im sure by then Nick Clegg will have decided that the age for retirement is 92 and if you earn over £50 a day it should all be given to his wifes book fund- buffoon!!-
Tonight well LM if you recall G8Ds - Day/Night Medium level boring PIs i will be doing something similar- evasion - nil unless they have some Nice blondes on - but max evasion if they have an adams apple- Headings for target im guessing about 265 degrees true with a 2 mile offset kept going for 3000 miles. VIDs possibly a phase 1 on some other poor sod awake at 2 am. and Tiger fast Tiger slow- i think i'll be Tiger slow and def C 0-0- minus.....ye roll on 12 years At least i wont be in a rubber bag!

[Lightning Mate]

Looks as if I may have been wrong in my PM to you.

[Lightning Mate]

All these years and hes still telling me what to do.

I see one of your interests is "footie".

Now you really have gone down in my estimation.:E

[BOAC]

I should know the answer, having had so many guns kills credited :p, but how many frames of steady pipper do we need to see? Obviously one will not do (the 'passing through' spray).

[Skeleton]

I see one of your interests is "footie".

It was until it became a non contact game. :ok:

[airpolice]

Guys, I have recently converted a load of my Dad's Super8 cine film to DV and I am in the process of making it usable on the PC.

A small clip may be up here shortly, like this afternoon.

What format is Scruffy's film?

[BOAC]

If it is gun camera original I believe it was 8mm?

[Scruffy Fanny]

Think BOAC is correct 8mm in neg format

[ARXW]

Surely the answer lies in the Falklands.
Please correctl me if I’m wrong but:

Of 31? deployed Harriers, 28 saw action and accounted for 31 Argentine aircraft shot down with no air-to-air losses themselves.
Including 7 Dagger’s shot down by Sea Harriers.

Given that the Lightning / Dagger are same era / technologies aeroplanes I think it answers the question.

***
Sorry LM, 7 years HFS Wittering, only 1 year on 29 Sqdn

surely the answer to the above lies below (check Mortimer's quote):

Battle for the Falklands (3): Air Forces - Roy Braybrook - Google Books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZUjMYkfr-pwC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=terrible+pilots+no+idea+mortimer&source=bl&ots=MDoqjH7hkd&sig=3X6w97JLnFTS7QdcuCPBrxqMDcc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sdfRUKT0FdCa0QWsmoDQDQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=terrible%20pilots%20no%20idea%20mortimer&f=false)

Not to mention that if I am not wrong the Lightning force did go out to train the Harrier force in '82 and allegedly simulated Mirages by entering simulated combat (mostly?) without reheat...

[Lightning Mate]

....if I am not wrong the Lightning force did go out to train the Harrier force
in '82

Are you sure about that?

[thing]

Pretty sure the Lightnings never went to the Falklands.

[sturb199]

As a Tonka Eng can I ask why a gun attack on a Buc was interesting?

[Lightning Mate]

Weapon aiming system.

You had to be in a dive, and if the Bucc was below 200 ft it made the recovery an anal sphincter moment.

[BOAC]

Most fighters' guns are mounted to fire above the fuselage axis to allow for the gravity drop. I would imagine the Tonka (if it has guns???) would be the same. In a 'turning fight' this does not produce a problem. With a target you can get below likewise. With a non-turning Bucc leaving trails on the sea, (or in my case parting the trees in Suffolk) it ain't easy. The 'standard' way (hence the grey hair) to kill the **** was to roll inverted above the target so the gun aim was in the right direction (but not for too long.......)

You had to be in a dive ??? Did you have trouble with air-to-air......:)

and if the Bucc was below 200 ft - ever seen one above?

[ORAC]

Pretty sure the Lightnings never went to the Falklands. No, they never did. There were cunning plans put forward to MOD about how they could be modified with a Y adapter to carry AIM-9G and go south, but they came to nothing. Instead the F-4s went and the F-4Js were bought instead.

[Lightning Mate]

- ever seen one above?

Nope.

Ever seen a Jaguar either?

[ARXW]

Are you sure about that?
Wrongly phrased... I guess I meant to say "the Lightning force went out of their way to train the Harrier force" :)

It was the Harrier GR3s I presume which came over to Binbrook to play before departing for the Falklands? All of this is taken from the Lightning pilots' book (Sqn Ldr Moulds). In it he did claim the Lightning pilots were "mustard keen to get involved" but their involvement was of course limited to some dissimilar setups against the Harriers.

A couple of Lightning pilots did get involved (albeit former types who were hastily converted to the Sea Harrier after a call for volunteers went out to the RAFG Harrier force). One even got to shoot up a couple of Argentine aircraft.

[Lightning Mate]

...and one of those is an old mate of mine now living in Salisbury.

[CoffmanStarter]

LM ... I'll ask :ok:

At post #70 ...

Slightly inaccurate roundel paint job on that one


Sorry a bit esoteric for me ... please enlighten us when you have a moment ...

Cheers ...

Coff.

[ex-fast-jets]

Sorry - not paying attention!!

Distracted by all those ghastly pictures of targets displaying a great IR signature!!

Back to Harrier vs F104....................

Wheels roll from take-off to 10,000ft - the Harrier won by 7 secs.

And the Germans cheated and had de-fuelled, so the 104 did a glide return to Wittering, leaving me with hours of fuel and no-one to play with!!

[ORAC]

Final Redtop Firing. Apologies for quality, but scanned middle of a large photograph.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/jvoc/LastRedtopFiring_zps41681362.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/jvoc/IMG_0026_zps0f4a4c8a.jpg

[BOAC]

Cracking pic - never seen it from that angle before - brave and trusting chase! Could have gorn anywhere, guv!

[AR1]

There's an Ex Lightning pilot comes into my local - He only stays for 20 minutes then has to go home.

[thing]

No, they never did. There were cunning plans put forward to MOD about how they could be modified with a Y adapter to carry AIM-9G and go south, but they came to nothing.

They did think about it again about three years later; I was involved in the feasability study which went along the lines of:

Oi, can you bung 'winders on a Lightning?

Nope.

Well, can you at least look into it.

Ok.

(three months later)

Can you bung 'winders on a Lighning?

Nope.

Ok.

[Dominator2]

If you looked at all of the times that with both the F4 and Tornado F3 we were nealy caughtout by the weather but due to skill and daring got away with it. I cannot imagine how many Lightnings would have been lost, or diverted to the mainland, due to a lack of fuel!
Either that or they would not have flown much like the present (risk adverse) occupants.

[Scruffy Fanny]

BOAC - The Lightning missile firing shot was taken at Aberporth - it's XR754 flown by Dick Heath firing a Red Top - shot from a Hawk flown by Paul Warren It was taken on a large Format Bronica ETRS 75 mm lens - no motordrive - into the sun it was given extra light luckily with the missile firing.
The person who asked about fitting Sidewinder the problem is obscuration - that is to say the seeker head would be masked by the front fuselage so a missile on the right side would not be able to acquire a target 50 degrees to the left of the nose as it can't see it if that makes sense
SF

[HAS59]

Can someone help me here, I've got some decent photos but don't know how to upload them. The FAQ Thing says

As a member, you can create Albums of images that are linked to your public profile. Albums can be created by visiting the User Control Panel, and clicking on the 'Pictures & Albums' link, and then clicking on 'Add Album'.

but I can't find the 'Pictures & albums' link

[ORAC]

The person who asked about fitting Sidewinder the problem is obscuration - that is to say the seeker head would be masked by the front fuselage so a missile on the right side would not be able to acquire a target 50 degrees to the left of the nose as it can't see it if that makes sense Same issue with the Redtop surely?

IIRC, at the brief at HQ11 when Concorde was to act as a target each wing sent a rep to explain to the BA crew what their tactics would be.

The Binbrook rep, I think, was a young John C****e, who explained he would do a 150 collision intercept with zoom climb taking a Fox 1 with the left Mx, then roll inverted to expose the right Mx for a second Fox 1, then pull through to pass 2000ft below.

The BA captain reportedly went a very pale shade of white.

[ORAC]

BOAC/Scruffy Fanny,

Photo has sat in it's Jessops cover for nigh on 20 years. I have a smaller framed copy on the wall, so this copy is available for a good home.

[Just This Once...]

Fitting Sidewinder to a fuselage station…

http://wp-b.com/images/2012/2/26/4chan-hr1330245941341.jpg_th.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5100/5516128715_e2081d24a3.jpg

[Courtney Mil]

That's what SW REJECT was for.

[BOAC]

Kind offer, Orac - I'm sure it will find a home. I have only seen rear launch shots before.

HAS59

Have a wallow through this - pprune has not enabled image hosting:
http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/203481-image-posting-pprune-guide.html

[ORAC]

I use Photobucket (http://beta.photobucket.com)

Once you've uploaded the images, go to your library and hover over a photo and click the cogwheel and choose the option to "Share Media", then select the Links tab and "Direct Link".

You then paste the link here using the "insert image" tab from the bar above the box when typing.

[ORAC]

F-8 Crusader, one of my favourite airplanes. :ok:

[Wholigan]

And a very capable aircraft in its day too ORAC.

My lasting memory of DACT with the Crusader in the 104, was when we split at Mach 0.9 and then turned back in, we used to unload to a quarter "g", cross at about Mach 1.5 and then start the fight. The Crusaders used to just fly level until the cross. They were also dumping fuel from the split to the merge.

In the debrief of the first fight, we asked what speed they had as we crossed. Mach 1.6 was the answer. So ... loads of fuel, no unload to accel and faster than us at the cross!!! And fat wings to turn with.

Great fun days.

Edited to say:


And fat wings to turn with.


.... it's all relative tha knows!;)

[HAS59]

Thanks for your help ...

[ORAC]

Wholigan,

And also an aircraft where several pilots got airborne with the wings folded and then landed safely. :8

Some went zero G and locked the wings down. One slightly panicked and landed on a parallel taxiway with aircraft parked down either side - which he slipped between because his wings were still folded. :p

http://mofak.com/F-8wingsfolded67.jpg

[Wholigan]

:):) Nice dits ORAC. :ok:

[ORAC]

F-8 Wings folded (http://www.flightjournal.com/blog/2007/02/02/f8-wings-folded/)

[CoffmanStarter]

Folding Wings ... this might have been an interesting proposition :eek:

A "What if Model" ... EE Sea-Lightning !

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww193/andrewj_615/models009.jpg

Coff.

[BOAC]

I reckon the 'Looker' would have to dangle his legs in the intake...............need to make sure his boots are on tight.:)

[Lightning Mate]

My lasting memory of DACT with the Crusader in the 104, was when we split at
Mach 0.9 and then turned back in

Blimey Wholi, you're beginning to sound like a fighter pilot. :E

[jimgriff]

I have recordings of both the aircraft and Aberporth range control of that final firing session- It was getting late in the day and the MPC had been very active in getting rid of stock redtops before the Lightning was withdrawn IIRC!
I'll see if I can convert to MP3 and post it.

[BOAC]

Blimey Wholi, you're beginning to sound like a fighter pilot - sound, yes, but.........there are rumours he has 'fat' wings:)

[newt]

Never a fighter pilot Wholi but always good company in the bar:ok:

[Kluseau]

And the Germans cheated and had de-fuelled, so the 104 did a glide return to Wittering, leaving me with hours of fuel and no-one to play with!!

Can't help wondering just how far the F-104 could glide on those wings!

[ORAC]

Can't help wondering just how far the F-104 could glide on those wings! Deadstick Landing a F-104G (http://www.916-starfighter.de/Dead%20Stick%20Landing_F-104G_by_Serge%20Martin.pdf) 10,000ft for 10nm.

[Lightning Mate]

...but always good company in the barhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Bit like you then Newt.

Smoke off....Go

[Kluseau]

Fascinating stuff. And the best glide speed is supersonic at above 50,000ft!

The phrase "The fact this aircraft in particular is equiped with a zero-zero type ejection seat 4 makes me feel more comfortable to assess the actual situation" reads like something of an understatement...

[ORAC]

Unlike the F-104A which had a downward ejecting seat (http://www.ejectionsite.com/f104seat.htm). :ooh:

........But just as I looked down to check the airspeed indicator, the nose violently pitched almost straight down and continued to move through 90 degrees. I was starting to tumble. I called "Larry!," as I was pulling hard, real hard, back on the stick, "I've lost control! I have zero pitch input! I've got to get the hell out! Now!"

At that instant, I reached for the ejection ring between my legs with both hands and pulled as the aircraft continued to tumble. Boom! I was out, ejected upward, upside-down at 27,000 feet.

I might explain. The F-104 was at first designed with a "downward" ejection seat because it flew extremely fast at low altitude where, of course, the air is dense. Any ejection, up or down, at high speed would be like hitting a brick wall-a thick brick wall-at 700mph. No question: that's Excedrin headache number 1! The seat ejection systems at that time were not powerful enough to eject the pilot "upward" for fear of jamming him, due to high pressure, into the horizontal and vertical tails, each having a leading edge with a .01-inch radius. I wasn't ready for sliced "Suitcase"! Thus we ejected "downward."............

[Lightning Mate]

........But just as I looked down to check the airspeed indicator, the nose
violently pitched almost straight down and continued to move through 90 degrees.
I was starting to tumble. I called "Larry!," as I was pulling hard, real hard,
back on the stick, "I've lost control! I have zero pitch input! I've got to get
the hell out! Now!"

Sounds like unbelievable pilot error.................................

I'll get me coat.........

[hum]

..and one of those is an old mate of mine now living in Salisbury.

I guess that would be BRO... say hello from HUM if so :-)

[Kluseau]

Sounds like unbelievable pilot error.................................

If you wade through the account of the incident, it turns out that the tip tank fell off after clear air turbulence and took out the tail. Not sure the pilot could have been blamed for that one!