Army courts got it wrong again?

[clicker]

Perhaps I'm getting too old but this man should be getting treatment in hospital, not 4 years in prison.

BBC News - Catterick Garrison soldier jailed after kidnap drama (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-20670813)

[GreenKnight121]

No, he should be in prison.

He should get a full mental evaluation, and IF his claim of PTSD is confirmed he should be transferred to the PRISON's hospital for treatment.

"I was nuts at the time" should NEVER be allowed to be the "escape responsibility for your actions" method of evading criminal charges that a certain sector of society wants it to be.

[Tiger_mate]

PTSD should not be underestimated; but it is easily abused. If alcohol was involved in this then do not pass go and do not collect £200, but if irrational behaviour from a previously stable individual without alcohol being involved then jail is probably the wrong outcome. One should be able to assume that the CM were aware of far more then newspaper headlines before a verdict.

[Pontius Navigator]

From what has been said I side towards Clicker, modified by GK and TM. I would not rule out alcohol as a separate issue from PTSD.

[clicker]

PN, my thoughts exactly.

[barnstormer1968]

I only know details of this case from the link provided, and note that it does not mention any purpose for the kidnap. Most kidnaps would surely be for financial reward, removal of a child from another parent, or for revenge.

This sounds a bit bizarre. I have read quite a few posts on this site of people saying they went a bit 'wobbly' for a while, and I know I was personally affected by some things I did/saw for a while. It would be interesting to know where the kidnapper planned to take his two hostages before one of them escaped, and whether the fact his actions were reported to the guardroom prompted him to give up. If I knew that my actions of kidnap were well known and I may then get armed police looking for me I would give up promptly...........But then I'm not insane (well, I like to think I'm not;))

[Tashengurt]

In my professional life I meet people from all kinds of backgrounds who use their mental health as an excuse for their behaviour.
Whilst I agree that those suffering from illness should be fully supported, where criminal acts occur they have to be dealt with.

[Pontius Navigator]

I have read quite a few posts on this site of people saying they went a bit 'wobbly' for a while, and I know I was personally affected by some things I did/saw for a while.

You didn't even need to experience anything bad to go wobbly. Before the modern vogue for PTSD and all the huggy crowd that go with it, I did a 6 month detachment, nice, and comfortable but working a 4-day shift cycle and a 70 hour week.

Nothing dramatic and a lot less than many in AFG, but I was certainly not myself when I got home. The difference then was no mid-term break, no telephones, and only free-blueys.

Add in the modern tempo and stress and you have something that very few modern civilians can even contemplate.

[Al R]

PN,

I don't think its a modern vogue. I remember my grandfather, jumping everytime the clock chimed (due to his participation in the 1914-18 war). I know you don't mean to be dismissive and I don't mean to misrepresent your post, but until the problem became as widely known (abused?) as it is now, I dread to think how many lives were blighted by the illness not being properly considered.

I drove down from Lancashire with someone on Sunday who was telling me how his brother (PARA) is in threads because of too much exposure to Afghan and Iraq. We have a time bomb ticking; we'll have too many servicemen living on the streets and living in misery. At least as bad, is going to be the impact on families and loved ones.

[Rossian]

...PN try and get a hold of the book "Trauma" by Prof Gordon Turnbull former RAF medic and psychiatrist who was drawn into the treatment of PTSD by dealing with the Mountain Rescue teams' troubles in the aftermath of clearing up Lockerbie. He doesn't think that it's a "modern vogue". He also debriefed Peters and Nichol and Terry Waite after their releases.

You may consider editing the dismissive tone in your last post.

The Ancient Mariner

[Pontius Navigator]

Al, Rossian, by modern vogue I don't mean this year or this war but the term PTSD. In Al's case we are referring to shellshock. Clearly, unlike PTSD, this can only relate to someone that has been shelled.

The vogue to which I allude is the medical application to everyone that suffers, or alleges they suffer, from some form of traumatic stress. I was in London on 7/7 and not far from the bus that was blown up. I have been held hostage by a gunman. In neither case did I feel any form of stress.

[Mr-Burns]

He's from Greater Manchester .......of course he should be in prison.

[The Helpful Stacker]

In neither case did I feel any form of stress.

And lo, the issues that complicate diagnosing and treating MH problems is laid bare. Whilst I'm sure you are sensible enough to understand, no illness is one shoe fits all, and in MH this is especially so.

I know of two former colleagues who, for one reason or another, have committed suicide since they've left the military and I know for certain one of them was having problems relating to service in FRY and I suspect the other may have been too. But I'm still here, why is that? We shared many of the experiences that I know at least one of them found difficult to deal with through their later life.

I won't claim to be the expert on such things (I'm an Adult branch nurse, not MH, though my wife is a forensic psychologist and occasionally various titbits leech into my head...) but perhaps it is because, as with all external and internal stressors, we as individuals deal with them differently. That most base of psychological concepts, the fight or flight response, is very much tied into how we as humans cope with said stressors and also how susceptible we are as individuals to have an adverse reaction to them.

This said though there is grounds for debate on whether there is a culture of mis-diagnosis within the medical profession relating to PTSD, especially among GPs dealing with ex-service personnel. There is much debate in the sector regarding ex-service personnel who it is believed could be pushing for a diagnosis of PTSD as a means by which to excuse their socially unacceptable behaviour, especially if said behaviour involves drug misuse. This is why attempts to produce more robust means of diagnosing PTSD (and other MH conditions) are ongoing and much debated, especially in the light of the forthcoming release of the APA's DSM-V diagnosis standards.

[Green Bottle 2]

I agree he should be punished. But if you are an ex politician you can be too poorly to defend yourself so despite being found guilty in your absence you get no criminal record or punishment.

It is the inconsistency that annoys me most.

GB2:*

[baffman]

The vogue to which I allude is the medical application to everyone that suffers, or alleges they suffer, from some form of traumatic stress. I was in London on 7/7 and not far from the bus that was blown up. I have been held hostage by a gunman. In neither case did I feel any form of stress. It must have been incredibly scary being "not far" from the bus that was blown up, and I am sure that the experience would make one a diagnostic expert on everyone alleged to be suffering from some form of traumatic stress. I don't suppose the gunman could have been an infuriated PPRuNe poster?

As to the case which sparked this discussion, it sounds like a horrific criminal incident fully worthy of the sentence imposed.

[barnstormer1968]

Pontius.

Your reply was fine by me. While someone can truly suffer from PTSD from all kinds of events, ranging from a 4mph rear end shunt (with your children in the car too) to some of the vile sites that were around in FRY, I feel that the stress, and lack of removal from stress that some are finding in Afghan (I have never been there) is a bit of a ticking time bomb for some.

Not only will some suffer stress from shooting baddies, but there be others who also suffer from NOT being able to shoot baddies, while being shot at themselves.

[GreenKnight121]

Of course, barnstormer, and while I experienced nothing particularly traumatic in my 8 years in the USMC, and suffer nothing diagnosable, the eldest son of a former girlfriend (she & I dated when he was 10-11) served in the US Army in Iraq, and when he was discharged 4 years ago was then, and still does, suffer psychologically from the effects of his combat experiences... effects he is still being treated for.

As do thousands of servicemen/women... very few of which will ever commit a criminal act as a result.

The mis-use of PTSD as an excuse for criminal behavior is unfortunately widespread, and it demeans everyone who served and live honorably afterwards, and that abuse will inevitably lead to a societal backlash that will harm those who legitimately serve.

Witness the late-1970s view of all Vietnam vets as "drug-addled violent psychos" based on the actions of a few, who then tried to use their combat experiences to excuse their actions. Many did need treatment, and got it (mostly belatedly), but they were smeared with the stigma of the few.

This is why I cannot agree with " no criminal consequences"... unless it can be proven that the mental issues reached a level of insanity that should have resulted in institutionalization.

Otherwise those issues can only be applied as mitigating factors for altering the sentence.

[teeteringhead]

In the Danny Nightingale thread(s), there was a link to the CM transcript, which did indeed reveal more than the press reported.

Anyone got a link to this one, as I presume it too will be in the "public domain".

[HamishDylan]

I wouldn't jump aboard the outrage bus too quickly about over-diagnosis of PTSD. After my 12th full op tour over a 30 year career I knew I wasn't the full shilling when I came back from the Sand Pit this time. Put my hand up for a bit of help and, under an Army Dept of Community Mental Health was diagnosed with 'Adjustment Disorder'. Despite being an officer and (hopefully) a gentleman, I ended up assaulting a colleague at a social function because (although I was entirely sober) he caused me to flash over and I acted entirely out of my UK character. A short while later, I went hard for a gunman come out of a side door, only to find that he was a handyman carrying an electric drill and not a sub machine gun (yes, I did feel a complete burk and I pulled up just in time). A variety of other unusual (for me) behaviours, including always needing to carry a weapon, torch and first aid kit -in my briefcase FFS! -were shrugged off and I just got dosed up with anti-depressants and told to 'look on the bright side of life' by allegedly mental health professionals. So op exposure can make individuals act completely out of UK character and disproportionately to the circumstances.

Shortly before my medical discharge - for having 'adjustment disorder' for 2 years - I was referred to the local-to-my-civil-address RAF DCMH for my last few months care. Within 2 visits I was screened for and diagnosed with PTSD and started treatment - a godsend but too late to recover my career. The Army may be proud that it has no increase in diagnosed PTSD rates despite Iraq and Afghanistan but that is because they are refusing to acknowledge the bleeding obvious and actually diagnose PTSD when they see it; it didn't help Canute keep the tide back and I don't think it is a good strategy for coping with the large numbers exposed to significant stressors in the line of duty...(but it will keep the AFCS claims to an affordable level...) Thank goodness being bonkers hasn't made me cynical :rolleyes:

[barnstormer1968]

GreenKnight

I have not come down on the 'slap him in prison', or 'treat his mental health' side as I do not know enough about the case. I do agree though that almost all personal won't go on to commit crimes (although a sizeable percentage in the UK will later become homeless). In my own case I just became a moody sod for about a decade, and wasn't as good a father as I could have been.

[GreenKnight121]

HamishDylan, both our nations are in the *^$$%^'ed up mode where the Military tries very hard to ignore PTSD in those still on active duty, but falls all over itself to diagnose it once the serving person is "no longer serving".

Added to this is a civilian psychiatric profession with a stated goal of getting everyone in the world into treatment, no exceptions*, and PTSD is indeed being diagnosed irresponsibly in the general population at large.



* The then-president of the American Psychiatric Association, in the forward to a textbook I saw in 1992 in Weber State University in Utah, stated exactly that goal.

He wrote that that particular text "advanced our understanding towards the day when the neurosis underlying ALL human behavior will be recognized, and all persons will receive treatment for them."

Yep... the APA believes that everything we do is neurotic, and justifies treatment.

[wilnot]

But but but.....

Why was this guy tried by court martial for a civil offence? So - no jury, a collection of amateur judglets, and thus imperfect justice.

OK, so there's a Judge Advocate to advise the court, but still...

[parabellum]

Sad to note that there are some PTSD deniers here on PPRuNe. Only just over 100 years ago people in high places denied the existance of PTSD and men as young as seventeen were being tied to a chair and shot dead as a result.

[baffman]

But but but.....

Why was this guy tried by court martial for a civil offence? So - no jury, a collection of amateur judglets, and thus imperfect justice.

OK, so there's a Judge Advocate to advise the court, but still... If the same guilty pleas had been tendered in a civilian court, there wouldn't have been any kind of jury.