70 years ago today...

[MTOW]

A sad anniversary today. 71 - (and not 70, as I originally stated) - years to the day since the loss of HMS 'Repulse' and HMS 'Prince of Wales' off the east coast of the Malay Peninsula.

After that day, (and despite much earlier evidence already proving the point), even the most skeptical observers had to accept that capital ships without air cover had no future afloat.

Looking at the state of things today in a couple of navies I can think of, some might be tempted to ask what lessons have been remembered 70 years later?

[Mandator]

There was an excellent programme on Channel 4 last about the loss of HMS Hood. I recall that the programme mentioned that HMS Prince of Wales was there also.

[Fareastdriver]

I don't know about today but in the sixties at the right tide you could still see the formast of one of them sticking out of the water.

Edited to add.
Looking at Wiki it seems to be the Repulse's mast that is or used to stick up above the sea.

[Brian 48nav]

It is actually 71 years today- they were sunk in 1941.

My memory is also playing tricks - I think we used to be able to see one of the masts from the Herc in 68/9?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

what lessons have been remembered 70 [sic] years later?


That terrorists don't operate large fleets of twin-piston bombers?

[Navaleye]

I don't know about today but in the sixties at the right tide you could still see the formast of one of them sticking out of the water.

Surprising if true as the both capsized and lie inverted.

[Samuel]

There is not now and never has been any part of either ship showing above water, it's deeper than that, but not so deep that you can't see the outlines.

It used to be, and this certainly happened on my last tour of Singapore in 1974-76, that RN divers replaced the Ensign on Repulse from time to time.

[blaireau]

I recall being told that oil spill could be seen on occasion from the wrecks. Maybe I fooled myself into believing I saw it from my low level F4 in summer '72.

I've also read one historian's belief that this sinking was a definitive step in the rapid decline and fall of the British Empire.

In a similar vein, I have also read that lead pipes were a major contributary cause of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. Whatever, ours was bigger than theirs!

[Whenurhappy]

In Harris's 'Bomber Command' he spares no vitriol agaisnt the Admiralty and the Navy in general for their fixation on having Capital Ships. He personally knew Capt John Leach RN of HMS Prince of Wales - having worked with him in the Joint Staffs before the War, and also knew Adm Tom Phillips, of Force Z. In spite of being apparently very friendly with Leach, he was also very critical of his Big Ship thinking.

As an aside, Adm of the Fleet Sir Henry Leach, son of Capt Leach, was a Midshipman at the time in Singapore (having been initially drafted to the PoW), left the island before the Japanese occupation and was 1SL during the Falklands War, and died this year.

[Old-Duffer]

To answer a couple of points from the above Posts.

HMS Hood was in company with HMS Prince of Wales when the former was sunk 600 miles off Cape Farewell. When the film 'Sink the Bismark' was made, the actor Esmond Knight played the captain of PoW. He had been a junior officer on the PoW in the action and had been blinded during that action. Incidentally, there is evidence which suggests that it wasn't Bismark which sank Hood but Prinz Eugen - won't go there in this Forum as it's all too difficult!

As to PoW and Repulse. They were sunk off Kuantan on the east coast of Malaya but in shallow water. Both ships either rolled over or went onto their sides. The masts are not erect and cannot be seen in slack water. However, the shapes of the vessels can be made out from the air (saw them) and it is a custom for RN divers to replace the white ensigns occasonally if circumstances permit. There is evidence that the ships have been looted as some bronze propellers are now missing from the wrecks.

Although Captain Leach died, Captain Tennant survived and went on to have a full and very successful career, reaching flag rank.

Old Duffer

[alisoncc]

This is my story this is my song,
I've been in this air force too f***ing long.
So bring out the Rodney, Repulse and Renown,
'cos you can't have the Hood 'cos the B****ards gone down.

Chocks away, chocks away.

[Danny42C]

blaireau,

This excerpt from my #2819 (p. 141.) in "Gaining a Pilot's Brevet in WW2" is in the same vein.

"These were heroic sentiments, fully in accordance with the declared view of our contemporary Admiral Tom Philips out there that: "a properly handled capital ship can always beat off air attack". Japanese torpedo bombers proved him wrong off the coast of Malaya. He went down in "Prince of Wales" (one of our newest battleships), and with him the old "Repulse" and some 1500 men. It was one of our worst naval disasters of the war, and sealed the fate of Singapore, Malaya and Burma".

For the Japanese it was the "cherry on the cake", which practically finished off their so-far successful campaign to defeat all the Western powers in our S.E. Asian colonies. What was left after that seemed a foregone conclusion.

Above all, it shattered the myth of the "invincible" White Powers. They had feet of clay: the "confidence trick" which had sustained their Empires all these years had been seen for what it was.

Danny42C.

[Andu]

Re the report that both ships lie inverted: I've been told one lies on its side, and (as others have said), that on a calm day, both could be seen quite clearly from an aircraft. (A mate who flew for Cathay back in the 60s and 70s told me that the air route, I think KL to Hong Kong, goes almost over the site. Can anyone comment on that?)

I also read somewhere that the Japanese Navy had divers go down on the wrecks "within 24 hours of the ships sinking" (which might be an exaggeration, but who knows?) to recover the ships' radar equipment, which was, for its day, cutting-edge kit. They'd hardly have been able to do that if both ships were inverted.

It's strange how a small error made by a single man a long way away can have such huge implications. If the RN carrier (was it 'Glorious'?) hadn't run aground/hit a rock in the West Indies a few weeks or months earlier, it would have been there to provide air support to Philips' force. Whether the obsolescent 'fighter' aircraft on the RN carrier would have been able to hold off the attacking Japanese bombers, particularly if they had Zero escorts, is debatable. (Did the Japanese have airfields at that early stage of the campaign within a Zero's range of Kuantan?)

[Lima Juliet]

HMS REPULSE is on her side in 32-53 metres of water:

HMS Repulse | Tech Diving | Wreck Diving | South China Sea | War ships (http://www.gs-diving.com/dive-info/lust-for-rust/hms-repulse/)

HMS PRINCE OF WALES is inverted in 38-68 metres of water:

HMS Prince Of Wales | HMS POW | POW | Tech Diving | Wreck Diving | South China Sea (http://www.gs-diving.com/dive-info/lust-for-rust/hms-prince-of-wales/)

RIP all those that were lost :(

[polecat2]

I believe the ships were sunk by Mitsubishi G4M 'Nell' bombers. They were operating at the limit of their range and did not have a fighter escort.

Polecat

[500N]

A slight thread drift but I happened to see a program the other day
on TV that was going through how the British sold aircraft and
expertise to Japan in the WW1 era. This included a long period
of training etc in Japan by British Officers.

The the agreement between the US and Britain occurred
stopped any future sales and training but a couple of officers
went over anyway to help them and this included landing
on ships.

What was interesting was that the first Commander of some
air training school that was set up in Japan went on to become
the brains and leader behind the attack on Pearl Habour.

Does anyone know what the program was called as I only
caught part of it.

[Easy Street]

what lessons have been remembered 70 years later?The need for decent shipborne air defence?

Aster (missile family) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aster_%28missile_family%29)

Standard Missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_missile)

S-300 (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-N-6#Sea-based_S-300FM_.28SA-N-20.29)

WW2 ships may have had fearsome close-in defences, but the capability of modern air-defence ships is far beyond anything seen even in the Falklands. You certainly wouldn't catch me trying to take on any of the above. unless the ship had foolishly got too close to shore, and even then it would probably shoot down any incoming! The lack of fleet air defence aircraft is not necessarily the stark omission that it at first appears.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

the RN carrier (was it 'Glorious'?)


Glorious went down during the Norway campaign in June 1940, a victim of even greater folly than that which sealed the fate of PoW and Repulse. You're thinking of Indomitable.


ships were sunk by Mitsubishi G4M 'Nell' bombers


The strike force was a mix of G3M 'Nells' and G4M 'Bettys'.

[BBadanov]

I believe the ships were sunk by Mitsubishi G4M 'Nell' bombers. They were operating at the limit of their range and did not have a fighter escort.
Polecat

The attacks on PoW and Repulse were by 88 Jap bombers and torpedo bombers.

PoW - 18 x Navy Type 1 (G4M) 'Betty' bombers, 24 x Navy Type 96 (G3M) 'Nell' TBs.

Repulse - 9 x Navy Type 1 'Betty' bombers, 37 x Navy Type 96 'Nell' TBs.

These aircraft of the 22nd Air Flotilla (part of the Navy's 11th Air Fleet), attacking from French Indo China (Vietnam), and did not have fighter escort. Four Jap aircraft were lost.

ADML Sir Tom Phillips was C-in-C Eastern Fleet, and was killed on the PoW. Before the war he had shared a flat in London with air power advocate John Slessor (later MRAF). Knowing their different views on the effectiveness of air power, Arthur 'Bomber' Harris proposed a toast at Phillips' farewell party: "Tom, when the first bomb hits, you'll say 'My God, what a hell of a mine!'. "

[innuendo]

(Did the Japanese have airfields at that early stage of the campaign within a Zero's range of Kuantan?)

If they did it was in spite of the efforts of my uncle. He was a civil engineer at the time working for the Air Ministry. He built airfields for the RAF in the Malay Peninsula in the time before the Japanese invaded. When that happened he reversed course and proceeded back towards Singapore blowing them up.

He made it to Singapore ahead of the Japanese, put his car into Keppel Harbour with a brick on the accelerator and managed to get on one of the last ships to head to Ceylon where he spent the rest of the war. Although he was employed by the Air Ministry he was not in uniform so staying ahead of the Japanese no doubt kept him alive.
Happily he is still fine, while a bit frail in body he is sharp as a tack otherwise.

[taxydual]

Mitsubishi aircraft. Hmm. I wonder if this chap may have had something to do with it.

William Forbes-Sempill, 19th Lord Sempill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Forbes-Sempill,_19th_Lord_Sempill)


OK, I know it's Wikipedia...........

[GreenKnight121]

Even if Indomitable had not run aground in the entry channel to Kingston Harbour, she would still have NOT made it to Singapore in time to cover POW & Repulse's sortie... not even if she never entered port in Singapore but sailed directly on north!

POW sailed for Singapore on 25 October, met up with Repulse at Colombo, Ceylon on 29 November, and arrived Singapore 2 December. They were sunk 8 days later.

Indomitable was entering harbor in Jamaica 9 days after POW sailed for Singapore, to START her pre-deployment work-ups! Therefore, she was intended to be in that area for several more days (if not weeks) before heading for the Far East. She had been commissioned only a month earlier, and her crew needed to gain familiarity and proficiency in both operating the ship and in handling aircraft on the flight deck, including take-offs and landings.

If she had not run aground, and if her orders had been changed that day to sail immediately for Singapore, she would probably have arrived the day after POW & Repulse were sunk. Remember, the UK was not yet at war with Japan, nor did they know that war would start in one month (despite the claims of tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorists), so they would not have been proceeding with any more speed than POW had been.

The crew would also not have been very good at working the ship (although this would have improved during the passage). The real problem would be that the flight deck crews and pilots would be hard-pressed to conduct sufficient training during the passage... especially if they ran into any bad weather.

World Naval Ships Forums - View Single Post - Aground off Kingston - an Indomitable tale (http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10026237&postcount=1)
The following is largely based on the story told by Hugh Popham, then a young FAA pilot aboard Indomitable, as told in his book Sea Flight,first published in 1954.

On November 3, 1941 in the tranquil tropical waters off Kingston, Jamaica and event occurred that arguably had repercussions far beyond the immediate problem of the event itself.

The new aircraft carrier HMS Indomitable, completed on October 1, 1941 was undergoing her working up exercises and was arriving in Kingston which was to be her Caribbean base.

Kingston Harbour is a large lagoon protected from the open Caribbean Sea by a narrow peninsula called the Palisadoes Strip with its entrance being at the western end. On the tip of Palisadoes is the famous town of Port Royal – home of 17th Century privateer Sir Henry Morgan and his buccaneers. Halfway along Palisadoes is the location of the Norman Manley International Airport.

Ships entering the harbour travel from east to west parallel to the strip then make a sharp turn to starboard to enter the lagoon. They have to navigate between numerous shoals along a channel which would be identified by buoys.

On the afternoon of November 3, Indomitable swung into the entry channel, cutting her engines to very slow ahead, almost drifting along at about 5 knots. FAA pilot Hugh Popham noted that the ship was quiet with the “ripple of the bow wave” being louder than the hum of the engines. It was a clear, calm day with a plain view of the city (then town) of Kingston beyond the Palisadoes Strip against the backdrop of the green hills and partly cloudy sky.

Suddenly there was a crash and a shudder and the ship stopped dead in her tracks. Initially there was the thought of a torpedo, but there weren’t supposed to be u-boats in the vicinity. There was only one explanation – they had run aground.

More info at the link above.

[Wensleydale]

As I understand the sequence of events....

At 1005: 9 X G3M "Nell" from the Genzan Air Corps attack with bombs the "S" Class destroyer HMS Tenedos which was detached from Force Z.

At 1113: 25 x G3M "Nell" from the Mihoro Air Corps attack both battleships with bombs (9 aircraft had 1 x 500Kg bomb - the remainder carried 2 x 250 Kg). There were 8 x near misses and Repulse was hit on the hangar deck.

At 1140: 16 x "Nell" from the Genzan Group; 8 x "Nell" from the Mihoro Group and 26 x G4M "Betty" from the Kanoya Air Group, all carrying one torpedo attacked force Z. PoW was hit 4 times and sank at 1218. Repulse was hit twice and sank at 1223. Three torpedo aircraft were lost in this final attack (one Nell from Genzan and two Bettys from Kanoya).

Force Z's escort of 10 x Brewster Buffalos from 453 Sqn RAAF arrived on scene at 1318, just in time to witness POW sink.

[BBadanov]

Force Z's escort of 10 x Brewster Buffalos from 453 Sqn RAAF arrived on scene at 1318, just in time to witness POW sink.

No. Z Force had no air cover.

Phillips had been advised after arrival in Singapore that he could not expect adequate air cover for his dash north up the South China Sea. He was later advised from Singapore by signal: "Fighter protection on Wed 10th [Dec] will not, repeat not, be possible". He continued to sail north with Force Z.

9 Dec, 1400hrs, Jap sub #165 sighted Force Z.
9 Dec, 1800hrs, Jap spotter aircraft (from Jap cruiser) spotted Z Force.
9 Dec, nightfall, Force Z altered course towards Kuantan. HQ Sing not advised.

10 Dec, 1000hrs, Jap a/c had again located Z Force.
88 bombers (above) prepare to make attacks on Z Force (source postwar analysis: US Strategic Bombing Survey, Interrogation of Jap Officials, File No. A.131, 14Nov45, p.387.3)
10 Dec, 1030hrs, destroyer HMS Tenedos signals Phillips "Am being bombed by enemy aircraft".
Because of the turn towards Kuantan, 453 Sqn could reach this range, but Phillips did not request air cover. Both battleships were soon under attack, but Phillips maintained radio silence.
10 Dec, 1204hrs, Captain of HMS Repulse broke radio silence on his own initiative, and called HQ Singapore; "enemy aircraft bombing".
10 Dec, 1210hrs, 453 Sqn, 11 Buffalos airborne on scramble to 80km east of Kuantan.
10 Dec, 1220hrs, approx time of Repulse sinking.
10 Dec, 1318hrs, 453 Sqn arrive overhead and witness PoW roll over and sink.

[judge.oversteer]

BBadanov.
Concur.
My father was 453 Sqn RAAF, Brewster Buffalo's, and often told me about PoW and Repulse. Squadron was on standby waiting for the call at Sembawang Airfield at the time of their sinking. As history shows they were never called in to assist Force Z, before or after ships left harbour until far too late.
Sad indeed.
JO.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

My father was 453 Sqn RAAF, Brewster Buffalo's


He was clearly a very skilful man to survive flying Buffaloes against the Japanese! What aircraft did he fly subsequently?

I'm not sure that the best efforts of the available fighters would have made much difference to the outcome in this case: with an attacking force of nearly 90 aircraft, operated by highly trained and experienced crews, a squadron of Allied fighters, however well-flown and led, would have struggled to save the ships. And I wonder if, had Indomitable been there as well, it would have been 3 capital ships lost instead of two...

[judge.oversteer]

Hi Torque,

He flew Kittyhawks (82 Sqn Horn Island) mainly after leaving Singapore via Colombo. Also Wirraways, Boomarangs and small amount on Airacobras.

I've tried to put a brief article on 453 Sqn on the Aviation History forum but can't seem to get it to post. Thanks to all especially India 42.

JO.

[polecat2]

Apologies, I got my Nells and Bettys mixed up.

Polecat.

[Wander00]

Nellie's your aunty, and Betty lives in the big house at the end of The Mall

I'll get my coat...................

[kration]

Mitsubishi aircraft. Hmm. I wonder if this chap may have had something
to do with it.

William Forbes-Sempill, 19th Lord Sempill - Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Forbes-Sempill,_19th_Lord_Sempill)



Possibly, but another angle is that the the designer of the Sopwith Camel (Herbert Smith) was one one of a group of British engineers shipped over the advise Mitsubishi in the 1920's, and trained the designer of the Zero.

I've always thought that the Zero was a bit like a monoplane Sopwith Camel, with the pilot, guns, engine etc. tightly clustered around the front of the aircraft and it's centre of gravity.

[judge.oversteer]

Wander,

Yes, you should.
At that stage of the the war the G4M Betty was probably one of the best bombers of the war!
As was a lot of the Japanese aircraft during early WW2.
Do not underestimate the Japanese technology at that stage, they were very, very good.
Ciao.

JO.