Valiant Tankers

[AnotherPenguin]

Valiant Tanker info required please
Am currently browsing a Valiant tanker pilot's (deceased) log book to write up his flying career. Have reached 1958 entries and he is on Tanker trials duties in which he notes during separate sorties: Trial 306: XD816: '2 below'; XD869: '3 below'; XD812: '2 above & 8 below'; XD816: '7 below'. For the month in question: June 1958 he totals: 'Hook-ups: 32 (12 above). I believe all these relate to 'dummy' tanker/receiver flights but it is not clear (to me) what is going on. Is there anyone out there who could interpret this for me please?
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=7565334) http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/edit.gif (http://www.pprune.org/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=7565334)

[Pontius Navigator]

I would hazard a guess that these relate to receiver (below) and tanker (above). Just a guess and I am sure someone will be able to clarify.

Easier to explain is Trial 306. Bomber Command Development Unit used to run trials. Some would be effectively in-house where a piece of equipment could be tested and operational procedures developed. Others were much greater in scope and requirements. One many of us took part in was Trial 505. This was flight carriage of the WE177 Instrumented round. Nothing dramatic for the crews involved we just had to fly it on typical sorties though there were occasional glitches but not no significance to the weapon itself.

Contacting the Air Historical Branch for BCDU documentation on Trial 306 might be worth while.

[D-IFF_ident]

Take a look here:

http://http://www.214squadron.org.uk/History_the_valiant_years.htm (http://www.214squadron.org.uk/History_the_valiant_years.htm)

I agree with PN - the "above"s may mean contacts (hook-up) as the tanker and the "below"s could mean contacts as receiver.

[AnotherPenguin]

Thanks for your help, that makes sense of the notes. Have now obtained further info on 306 & 306A but any further thoughts will be most welcome.

[Pontius Navigator]

AP, you would need a timeline for IFR as it was known in the 50s and 60s. If the Valiants were not yet operating as tankers then the Trial was probably so determine flight handling characteristics, flow transfer.

The 'A' may have related to a follow-on trial either with different or modified baskets etc.

I know that in 1964 when I did the receiver course that they were still developing night refuelling. One 'fix' was to strap bicycle dynamos driven by propellers to illuminate the basket.

*Ping!

Above and below might have referred to the position of the aircraft but not actually hooking up as giver or receiver.

[Art Field]

The terminology used by 214 Sq had pretty well settled down when I joined as a co in 1961. There were still aircraft lined up for a first go. In my time there was a Scimitar that tried and failed, because the probe nozzle was too close to the aircraft nose to fit inside the drogue, A very awkward Argosy trial owing to the speed differential.Then there was a Sea Vixen that not only took fuel from the Valiant but passed some back from its own Mk20 pod. We also had Trial 448 which is possibly still classified but was a very busy time for us.

[Pontius Navigator]

Art, if that trial is sufficiently interesting why not write an article from your memory and submit to the MOD?

I saw on here (www) a couple of years back an large article on 51 sqn Comets and their flights in the Black Sea and possibly Caspian (IIRC) that I was really surprised about.

[zetec2]

Now there's interesting, I was an engine fitter on 214 late 59 - early 62, HUD trained at Tarrant Rushton no less !, any way regarding the Vixen trials some of us were detached to Ford NAS to work with the FAA ? (or were they Navy ?) during this trial as they were using the Mk20 pod & we had to be fully conversant with FR equipment, little did I know that later would be working on Victor tankers that had not only Mk16 HDU's but Mk20 pods, I also earlier had been detached to Boscombe to assist with the Argosy trials, seem to remember during that trial changing over from the flat nosed probe (Mk6 ??) & relevant basket to the Mk9 "bullet" shaped probe & matching basket, also went through the mod programme fitting the little reflective buttons in the baskets think they were filled with Strontium 90, really glowed in the dark, for night time probing, will dig out some photo's & post of the trials with the Vixen from the air, rgds Paul H.

[zetec2]

Hope this helps, the Valant was XD858 the Vixen **489 was from HMS Victorious (sorry for earlier they are RN) that were on base at Ford for the trials, the 2 pictures are from a sequence of the Vixen to Valiant, will dig out the vice versa pictures & post later, notes say the a/c Captain was Sqd Ldr John Garston
rgds, Paul H.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/zetec2/img002.jpg

[zetec2]

Just noted the trials were in October 1961 for the Vixen, PH.

[Sir George Cayley]

Getting on top of a Vixen to be a receiver conjures up an alternative image.:eek:

SGC

[ian16th]

Zetec
I was an engine fitter on 214 late 59 - early 62,You might be one of, or definitely know Dave 'Curly' Garnham, Jock Riley and Roy Monk.

If you could carry an EDG under each arm, I know which one. :D

I was a Radar fitter on 214 for your entire tour, plus a bit at each end. I arrived Feb 59 and left Oct 62.

[AnotherPenguin]

There are entries in log book of the pilot of Valiant WZ390 during July 1962 for 'Trials 448' with no further description. Please can you tell me (to my private box, if you wish) what Trial 448 was all about?

[Pontius Navigator]

AP, all bomber Command trials were given a number. Usually they were conducted by the Bomber Command Development Unit - BCDU - which had a small unit with, I think, parts at each main base. It may have had one or two aircraft where equipment to be trialled might be fitted but for larger trials, such as 505, they needed to use the main force aircraft.

448 as clearly a flight refuelling trial. The times when the trial took place might be significant or the details of the receivers. Unless a Ppruner comes up with the detail you could ask the AHB giving as much detail as possible.

[lasernigel]

These were uploaded to me a few years ago whilst trying to figure out my Mum's cousins RAF career.

Argosy...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/lasernigel/ARGOSY3.jpg

and a Javelin...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/lasernigel/Jav2.jpg

With thanks to who ever it was from this forum.:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

And it is quite likely that Trial 448 would have been one of the sort of trial shown above.

The Argosy was surely a classic case of Air Ministry cash wasted. If AAR was needed to get them from Aden to Gan and thence Singapore, fair enough, but did they ever deploy east of Aden?

The Javelin was a good case as one Valiant could take one Javelin all the way to Tengah with staging through El Adem, Aden and Gan; very efficient.

When it came to the Vulcan and Victor, we could double stage to the Far East at the same time as the Valiants would have taken to activate the route, and perhaps quicker.

In the 60s AAR was the thing regardless that we never had the proportion of tankers that the USAF enjoyed.

[Tinribs]

The Valiants straight wing was not suited to high speed low level flight which became the favvooured attack scheme in the early 60s

The wings developed considerable fatigue problems which were being addressed but still led to several nasty crashes and the aircraft was eventually withdrawn from service rather suddenly after one such

Your man must have been flying them while these events were developing

One such I think was the Stringer crew at Market Raisen

[Pontius Navigator]

Tinribs. the wing design and low level fatigue actually were not the root cause of the problem. The problem was one of metallurgy. The alloy was found to form crystalline structure when formed and spars in store were found to be similarly fatigued. From Wiki "premature fatiguing and inter-crystalline corrosion traced to the use of an inappropriate type of aluminium alloy".

There had been one or two Valiants at Pershore with only double digit hours and they had hoped to give them a limited clearance. They checked a few rivets and found no problems. They were about to give them clearance when they checked one more rivet for luck . . .

As for the wing shape I believe the Mark 2 had the same shape. "the "Black Bomber". Its performance at low level was superior to that of the B.1 (or any other V-bomber), with the aircraft being cleared to 580 mph (930 km/h) at low level (with speeds of up to 640 mph (1,030 km/h) being reached in testing). " I don't know about the metal used on the Mk 2.

[Fareastdriver]

The problem was one of metallurgy.

Absolutley correct. WP217's rear wing fracture in flight initiated the Valiants demise. Up to that point there had been no concerns about the Valiant's airworthiness or fit for purpose.

[Exnomad]

Was the spar material DTD 683. The stress office where I worked had a chunk that had not been anywhere near an aircraft, but had turned into a crumbling cheese like mess all by itself purely on age.

[Pontius Navigator]

ExNomad, that is exactly what I heard. In that respect the Valiant was just too early and too unlucky.

[ICM]

PN: It's neither here nor there after all these years but, since you ask, there was an Argosy squadron (No 215 Sqn) based for some years at Changi, so deployment of UK or Aden based aircraft was hardly needed. As to why there was a refuelling trial with the aircraft, I've no idea, and AAR was no part of the force repertoire. "Because it was there," perhaps?

[RIHoward]

The trouble with British Aircraft pre 1956 (including the Valiant) was the double whammy of building aircraft with a design method that could not guarantee safety in a catastrophic failure [Safe Life] with materials [like DTD683] that could fail catastrophically. This fact was coupled with the fact that not all the metallurgical data was known when these aircraft entered service, for example it wasn't known until 1968 (4 years after the Valiant was scrapped) that for DTD 683, water or water vapour increased crack growth rates by a factor of 10. This was due to the Oxygen in the water rapidly oxidising the "fresh" aluminium releasing Hydrogen at high pressure which was enough to cause the crack to grow exposing more un-oxidised aluminium so producing more high pressure hydrogen and so on, in an auto-catalytic process.

Due to a lack of money cost cutting methods like using samples that had already been used in a stress test to measure fatigue strength led to an over estimation of the fatigue strength of a material by a factor of up to 100. This was due to the fact that pre-stressing these materials increased their fatigue strength. (See Section 4 para 2 of this ARC Paper (http://aerade.cranfield.ac.uk/ara/arc/cp/0232.pdf)). In fact this method (pre stressing) was used in a failed attempt to improve fatigue resistance.

This was aggravated by the lack of consideration for fatigue failure which was rare in the older materials.

DTD683 was known to be a troublesome material at least as early as 1951. Here is Mr Gardner of Vickers explaining the problems

structural problems | flight structural | structural efficiency | 1951 | 2503 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1951/1951%20-%202503.html)


Mr. Gardner then turned to a consideration of materials, first
touching on the newer aluminium-zinc-magnesium alloys,
D.T.D. 363 and D.T.D. 683, which, used as extrusions and
forgings, made appreciable weight-saving possible.

two difficulties had arisen: (a) distortion after machining, and
(b) variation of strength across the section. The distortion problem
with this alloy had become of general importance...

... this was an unsatisfactory aspect of the new alloy.
The second effect, which gave low core properties, was one which
needed to be known before design-values for the material were
agreed.And Mr Black of Vickers Supermarine in 1953

light alloys | cold bending | permanent distortion | 1953 | 0935 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1953/1953%20-%200935.html)

The alloys considered were those
of specifications D.T.D. 363A and D.T.D. 683....

Mr. Black stated, the increased strength
of the materials was accompanied by a lowering of ductility as
measured by the elongation obtained from a tensile test. A low
elongation value was undoubtedly undesirable in an aircraft
material, because only small amounts of permanent distortion
could take place before a fracture occurred, and large amounts of
cold work could not be withstood without fracture.

... the alloys had a reduced capacity to
absorb permanent distortion, a low ductility and a low ratio of
fatigue strength to tensile strength ...

... a high normal stress level in use, and the result was a
greatly increased sensitivity to stress concentrations resulting
from bad design or surface notches ...

... residual internal stress would reach a high level, and was very undesirable.
So the problems were well known, but instead of giving up with the materials they soldiered on thinking the problems were 'solved' after all the Ministry of Supply told them they had to use this material and the UK Aircraft Industry was pretty arrogant about its ability to solve problems having produced war winners like the Spit' and Lanc'

But the Industry had not solved all the problems and it began to dawn in 1955 that their approach was flawed. This is well evidenced in the technical papers of the time available in the Aerade catalog. The research switches from attempts to improve fatigue resistance to research into understanding the process of crack formation, growth rates and ways to stop the failures from being catastrophic.

Airframe Fatigue 1955 (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1955/1955%20-%200347.html)

On a comparative stress
basis, the new alloys such as DTD.363, 364 and 683 had no
better fatigue properties than the earlier alloys. Thus, for structures
of equal static strength, a reduction in fatigue life occurred,
and one example given by Rhode showed about a fivefold reduction
in fatigue life in transferring from 24 S-T to 75 S-T(75 S-T is the American designation for DTD683)

The problem of working out a Safe Life was virtually impossible given the large scatter in the fatigue data

cycles | endurance limit | salt spray | 1955 | 0363 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1955/1955%20-%200363.html)
... tests on 57 specimens give lives ranging from 430,000 cycles to 117,423,000 cycles with a mean of 23,324,000; such results underline the magnitude of the problem ...Things came to a head in 1956 with this lecture given by a Lockheed structures engineer to the RAeS
In it he delivers the "coup de grace" to Safe Life and states that DTD683 was the worst choice for fault tolerant structures

1956 | 0396 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1956/1956%20-%200396.html)

Putting this another way the big question is: —

. . . . . . . . .. Laboratory (or predicted or recorded) life...
Safe Life = ----------------------------------------—--------------
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? .

On the determination of this ? factor hinges the adequacy of the
safe-life method.Given the scatter in the data above, the nominator [Laboratory (or predicted or recorded) life] in the above equation was also largely guess work. Effectively the equation above becomes.
.. . . . . . . . . . ?
Safe Life = ----------
.. . . . . . . . . . ?

You don't need to be a mathematical genius to see the problem using an equation like that to design 'safe' aeroplanes.

All of this was made even more problematic with the publication also in 1956, of this paper in the Journal of the Institute of Metals by a Birmingham metallurgist team, which condemns DTD683 as it was too unstable (hence the wide scatter in the data).

Journal of the Institute of Metals (http://zkt.blackfish.org.uk/XD864/JIM_1790_17-23.pdf)

Mr Gardner of Vickers had noted the unstable nature of the alloy in his 1951 lecture.

The lack of stability shown both in extrusions
and forgings was an unpleasant feature in production. DTD683 was removed from use 3 years later; 1959, 5 years before the Valiant was. Its use post 1956 was limited to components in compression, such as under-carriage components.

In 1956 several things happened many Safe Life designs built with the new alloys were either scrapped or re-designed like the Argosy or Shackleton, but not the Valiant. Also in 1956 Vickers began flying a Valiant deliberately into turbulence they measured the strains and the experiments produced the disturbing result that the Valiant fleet had a remaining Safe Life of 70 hours, later revised to 300 hours (presumably under some pressure from MoD and Whitehall Mandarins). The problem with low flying was the increased frequency of gusts that would exceed the limits on the airframe. Exceeding the limits was potentially the initiating event for a later fatigue failure, as described in the Birmingham paper and as implied by Mr Black of Vickers Supermarine in his 1953 talk.

... only small amounts of permanent distortion could take place before a fracture occurred.Also in 1956 Macmillan said the following in a memo to PM Eden about defence expenditure.

"When the story of the aeroplanes finally comes out it will be the greatest tragedy if not scandal in our history"

1956 was the year in which the Government launched a review of the Aircraft Industry, which later resulted in the industry's restructuring. The last 6 Valiants were cancelled in 1956.

According to Flight magazine (corroborated in Eric Morgan's book) only 50 of the 104 (108) Valiants were still in service when the scrapping order came in 1965. Using the (incomplete) data available the average life of a Valiant was 7.6 years with an average of just over 300 flying hours per year each.

In todays money (price of a Valiant in 1956 = ~£500,000) and using a back of the envelope calculation, the cost to the Tax payer was ~£154,000 per hour of Valiant flight time, that number excludes the actual running costs such as wages, fuel etc and just uses the rough purchase cost.

That was Macmillan's "scandal". The "tragedy" was the number of fatalities in non-combat accidents, which reached a peak of nearly 1 a day in 1954.

http://zkt.blackfish.org.uk/XD864/images/RAF-noncombat-losses.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

RIH, a masterly treatise, thank you.

ICM, thank you too. I just think that the Air Box didn't really get its policy head around the concept of AAR. The USAF had it so we had to have it too. Of course modifying a few bomber types rather than building dedicated tankers like the KC97/KC135 was not the way we could afford as the V-force was sucking up most of the procurement money.

Equipping the Argosy and the VC10 was probably in case of rapid long range deployment but never enough tankers to do that.

[ian16th]

Not understanding the metallurgy bit, but if it was a matter of age and not related to flying hours or cycles, I must ask, how was XD816 kept flying so long after the rest of the Valiant's were scrapped?

My understanding, until this forum came up, was that XD816 had been a hanger queen while it was at Boscome Down, and used as the model for the fitting of HDU's. And as such it had way below the number of flying hours of the rest of the Valiant fleet.

It definitely spent at least 6 years on 214 Sqdn from Feb 59 until Feb 65.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ian, Feb 65 was pretty close to the end date. As I said, a couple of aircraft, I thought at Pershore but it may have included Boscombe, were sub-100 hours and it was hoped that they could fly on. When they did that last, for luck, safety check they discovered that they too were fatigued.

Despite the evidence laid out by RI Howard, there had been no whispers that there were problems.

Remember these were different times. It was the height of the cold war. Virtually anything to do with the super detergent was secret and the suggestion that a third of the force was unsafe would have been top secret, or at least treated as such.

Crews knew their chances were slim but hoped that their equipment would give them the best chance. There is no way that it would be admitted down at sqn level that the aircraft were death traps.

On the hangar queen aspects, that is to be expected for aircraft being used for experimental work. If the kit is not ready the aircraft would not fly.

[Art Field]

Just for the record, the crew that were flying the Valiant on that fateful day were not aware of how close they had come to death as they clambered out of the aircraft. On levelling off rather sharply when practising a " failure to pressurise in the climb " drill they heard a loud bang and decided to return gently to Gaydon. Those of us that were waiting at the dispersal could see that the aircraft was making like a naval version with one wing ready to fold up. One very lucky crew and the end of my Valiant captains course'

[D120A]

Art, was that the sortie where the spar fracture had caused the wing to 'half-fold' so much that the flap motor spline drive disconnected on that side? I heard that the crew tried to lower flap and got an immediate uncommanded roll as it deployed assymetrically, but the pilot not flying was monitoring the flap gauges and called it immediately, resulting in 'flaps up' and a safe flapless landing.

RIH, thank you for the treatise on fatigue, I shall bookmark it for ever. I remember how the work of the late Harold Parish (at Huntings before Warton, where I knew him) and Alfred Payne in Australia, testing many wings to destruction, enabled WAP Fisher and Roland Heywood at RAE to establish successfully the safety factor(s) that had to be applied to the results of major fatigue tests to define the safe service life of an aircraft - and have given us structural confidence ever since. But I had assumed that all alloys were reasonably well-behaved and produced a comforting Gaussian distribution of fatigue cycles to failure. I am surprised the Valiant lasted as long as it did, and rather pleased that my attempt to get a trip in one at Marham (as an ATC cadet, not a chance!) came to nought.

[Q-RTF-X]

Was the spar material DTD 683. The stress office where I worked had a chunk that had not been anywhere near an aircraft, but had turned into a all by itself purely on age.

Mind you, I have seen (long time ago now) a trailing spar of a Boeing 720B in a similar "crumbling cheese like mess", quite a sobering event given I had arrived at the maintenance base on that particular aircraft only the previous day. Granted the aircraft had quite some hours accrued, even so, sobering ! I took small package of the crumbs back with me to home base; more than a few of the people there first thought I was having them on !

[zetec2]

Re the continued flying of XD816, it was allowed to continue flying without underwing tanks & being monitored very closely, the attached picture is from Abingdon (looking at it it might just be Filton ?????) & from memory after leaving the Jubilee "get together" did one last flight around the V bomber bases (saw it overfly Marham) before ending up at Filton, I think the info is correct but always glad to be corrected PH.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/zetec2/XD816Valiant800_zps38b74211.jpg

[Fareastdriver]

I am surprised they took the underwing tanks off. When we operated them there was always a proportional quantity of fuel kept in the underwings so as to relieve the wing root stresses. That practice was nothing to do with the Valiant's problem; it was normal large aircraft husbandry.

[Pontius Navigator]

Not all Valiants were fitted with tanks. I do however have (in a book) a picture of 816 both with and without tanks. In the with tanks fit she also had a probe.

XD816, a B(K)1 was the last Valiant flying as it was undergoing a Ministry of Technology test programme.

According to the book, 816 flew on 28 Apr 1968 in a flypast to mark the disbandment of Bomber Command.

[zetec2]

XD816 went from 214 Sqd Marham (underwing tanks removed prior to transit flight at Marham) to Wisley 18 August 1964 for trial installation of rear spar repair scheme under KD/P/198/CB.5(c). Loaned to BAC Wisley 21 September 1964, At Wisley from 1 April 1965 - 26 November 1965 for re-spar & flight trials at that time had completed 2,012.05 flying hours & 829 landings. On 29 June 1967 passed to control of BAC (Operating) Ltd for fatigue flight trials, MOD loaned aircraft for display at Abingdon 23 April 1968, finally SOC 26 August 1970. Hope fills in the gaps, PH

[Fareastdriver]

The underwing tanks could take a nominal 12,500 lbs of fuel each. Somewhere in my memory cells is a project by Vickers to mount two bomb carriers underneath the wings each containing 10/1,000 lb bombs.

It would have flown a reasonable distance; that would have left it with about 45,000 lbs; about 5 hrs flying with 30 mins reserve: 1,200 nm ROA.

It would have jumped a bit letting 41,000 lbs go.

[ancientaviator62]

Fareastdriver,
the Herc used to 'jump a bit' when dropping a triple ULLA (ultra low level airdrop ). That was 3x 14000lbs per platform ten feet above the DZ !

[RIHoward]

Found this pic in Profile Publications Number 66 "The Vickers Valiant" published in 1966

http://zkt.blackfish.org.uk/XD864/images/Valiant_refuelling.jpg

original copyright - Profile Publications Ltd (now dissolved) 1966

[ian16th]

Zetec,

Nice pic.
You can just see the Rebecca X aerials on the black paint in front of the windscreen. XD816 was one of 4 a/c to be fitted with Rebecca X. If I can
lay my hands on my notebook, I will confirm if it was one of the 2 fitted with Eureka X. I think it was but I cannot trust my memory these days :uhoh:

RIHoward,

That is a well used pic that I've seen many times. I recognise the faces and I've racked my brain for names, all to no avail.

PN,

Yep the end date of the Valiant and the end date of my service were very close together :p

Being an ex-Boy Entrant, my demob date was my birthday, which is in March. With demob and accumulated leave, I left the gates of Marham for the last time the 1st Friday in February 1965.

[Pontius Navigator]

You can just see the Rebecca X aerials on the black paint in front of the windscreen. XD816 was one ofZ 4 a/c to be fitted with Rebecca X. If I can lay my hands on my notebook, I will confirm if it was one of the 2 fitted with Eureka X.

As Rebecca was the aircraft equipment and Eureka was the corresponding ground responder, are you saying that two of the aircraft were fitted with Eureka so as to act as formation leaders?

I was on one of Trial 541 sorties in Jan 1967 on the Vulcan when we tried out the A-A Tacan for low level blind formation flying trying out a conventional bombing trial. It involved 3 Vulcans at 15 second interval on one of the Libyan low level routes. The trial seemed to go well until it was analysed.

As lead we could intermittently see the range of either of the two followers. No 2 always seemed horribly close, often as close as half a mile. OTOH Nos 2 and 3 thought we were much further ahead of them.

While the tactic was never practised the scheme for a 4 aircraft laydown cross over attack at 30 second intervals was a published tactic. Now that would have made the eyes water.

[NutherA2]

As Rebecca was the aircraft equipment and Eureka was the corresponding ground responder, are you saying that two of the aircraft were fitted with Eureka so as to act as formation leaders?


In the early 1960s, on 23 Sqn (Javelin 9R) I can remember taking part in air to air Rebecca/ Eureka trials with a Valiant tanker; IIRC it worked , but I can't remember what range we achieved.

[ian16th]

PN said:As Rebecca was the aircraft equipment and Eureka was the corresponding ground responder, are you saying that two of the aircraft were fitted with Eureka so as to act as formation leaders?
Rebecca X/Eureka X was a unique system that we trialed for AAR.

Yes, Eureka was normally the ground transponder, but the MK X was a special from Marconi. It worked around 1000 Mc/s as opposed the 200 Mc/s of the 'normal' Rebecca/Eureka/DME. Whenever we had a fault, we took the kit to the Electronic Centre and did trouble shooting to the component level, and a report went to Marconi.

If you look closely at the pic of XD816 you can see the 3 'shark fin' aerials on the black painted part of the 'bonnet'. We also spread the story that when AAR receiving, they were 'sights' for hitting the drogue. :D

If the a/c was fitted with the Eureka X transponder, it had a similar single sharks fin aerial on the underside of the fuselage, immediatly forward of the Orange Putter tail warning Tx/Rx. As I said earlier, I do belive that XD816 was fitted with Eureka X and I think that the aerial is just visible on the picture posted. In the picture, no Orange Putter is fitted, just a white tail cone.

I left 214 in Oct 62 for 2 years in Akrotiri and I dunno how the trials ended. I rejoined the Sqdn in Oct 64, by then the Valiant's were flying in very restricted mode or grounded and I was more interested in getting started in civilian life. The good news was that with so little work to do, I had no trouble getting time off for job interviews.

Before going to Akrotiri, I had a jolly to Vickers at Hurn, where they had fitted the rack mounts and cables. I took a Eureka X set and test equipment to Hurn and fitted it, tested it and found it worked, so as a Cpl/Tech I signed a a document that meant that the RAF paid Vickers for their work! Oh the power :eek:

As a thank you they gave me a lunch and a tour of a rather special a/c that they were servicing, a Viscount that was owned by King Hussein of Jordan. It was fitted out just a little nicer than the Valiant's. :ok:

Happy Daze.

[ian16th]

NutherA2 (http://www.pprune.org/members/127649-nuthera2)

I was unaware of Javelins being fitted with Rebecca X, but I am not surprised.

We tanked a Sqdn of Jav's to Singapore in 1961, this was of course after a period of training for the Jav jockeys.

I have some colour slides of dawn start ups and take offs from Gan.

The topped up Valiants used water meth for their take offs, the locals were a little upset by the noise that woke them up :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Ian, I should have realised that the Rebecca/Eureka system was part of the IFR (later AAR) setup. I know with the 200 Mc/s setup that Rebecca could even be used as an emergency comms system but can't remember how. We only used it on the Varsity.

With our kit you could do a Rebecca homing by balancing the left and right strobes on the CRT and also reading the range. I believe on the Provosts it was improved and there was a left/right needle as well as a range readout.

As a navigation aid Tacan was far superior giving both range and bearing and more accurately too. For air-to-air use Rebecca had the edge as A-A Tacan had no bearing facility.

[Fareastdriver]

The topped up Valiants used water meth for their take offs

It gave you 1,000 lbs more thrust per engine and south of Dover you needed it. It would run for one minute and then you lost 4.000lbs of thrust. At Nairobi International this was precisely the point where the mainwheels were being dragged from the runway.

[ian16th]

Provosts it was improved and there was a left/right needle as well as a range readout.
This was Rebecca Mk VII, known as DME for Distance Measuring Equipment. It worked on the same frequencies as Rebecca IV and in conjunction with the same Eureka transponders. Because it was for operation by Drivers (Airframe) not Navigators it was simplified to 'Meter Display' :ok:

I came across it, in an earlier incarnation, on Hunters. Also the 90 Group/Signals Command calibration Varsity's had both Rebecca MK IV and Mk VII fitted. They couldn't be used at the same time as there was only one set of aerials that were manually switched to one or the other.

I installed the Eureka VII at Orange in 1958 and then flew in the Varsity that did the calibration. The shadow of Mount Ventaux caused my installation to fall below the standard for a Class A beacon. But nothing I could do about that.

[NutherA2]

Ian
We tanked a Sqdn of Jav's to Singapore in 1961

I flew one of the Javelins on that detachment and have very clear memories of the larger than planned formations when one of the tanker squadron commanders (Wg Cdr Burberry?) changed the batting order a bit to solve problems arising from an imbalance of Javelin & Valiant numbers.

On Day 1, Coltishall to Akrotiri, once we reached the Mediterranean we had a Balbo of 10 aircraft, 5 Javs with a tanker each. On Day 4, we needed to get 6 Javelins from Karachi to Gan with only 3 serviceable Valiants. Th boss got all 9 of us airborne together, had us take all the fuel we could off 2 of the tankers & himself led the remaining vic of 7 aircraft to Gan. We then had an hour or two with 3 Javs on each wing of a Valiant whose white paint scheme was an ideal camouflage in the ITCZ cirrus we flew through.

I believe this in-flight refuelled squadron deployment to FEAF was the first such exercise and was well timed to get us out of the UK for the worst of the weather in the notorious winter of 1962/63.

[ian16th]

NutherA2,

I think that you and I were on different detachments.

The 'orrible winter of 62/63 I read about in the papers, as I was posted to Akrotiri in Oct 62. During the Cuban Missile Crises, no less!

The time 214 took Javelins to Singapore, we staged through Akrotiri, Karachi and Gan on successive days, and I don't remember any a/c not flying on the scheduled day.

I was in a small group that stayed in Gan for 3 weeks, with 2 Valiant's and not a lot of work. A lot of Bridge was played.

I also believe that 'the other tanker squadron', 90 Sqdn, took Javelins to Singapore sometime after 214 did. I know that while I was in Akrotiri 214 tanked Javelins to somewhere in India for some exercise, that would have been between Oct 62 and Oct 64.

I'm away from home at the moment and my slide collection with dates is not available, but I'm pretty sure that the trip I was on was 1961. Mind you on 214 we did so many short detachments I'm liable to get them mixed up. Especially after half a century.

[NutherA2]

Thanks for the correction, Ian, "my" detachment was in January, 1963. I think it may have been the first refuelled deployment of a full squadron;we took 12 Javelins and staged Colishall - Akrotiri - Bahrein - Karachi - Gan - Tengah.

[Art Field]

Having Water Meth on the tanker Valiants (I think it was only in the tanker version) was a godsend. As mentioned by fareastdriver and ian16th it gave a boot up the proverbial at just the right time. I remember an occasion in Malta with number of squadron aircraft recovering to Marham. Each co pilot careufly worked out the T/O and all agreed water meth was not needed on the shortiish runway (now the longest) ln use. The first aircraft rolled clean. However when it was 2/3 down the runway his jet exhaust turned black. Number two made to half way and the rest used it from start. The engineers were not amused as it used up engine life.

[Fareastdriver]

Colishall - Akrotiri - Bahrein - Karachi -

There is a detachment to remember. The Javelins and admin staff were accomodated in the Speedbird at the airport. Poor old tanker air and ground crew were accomodated in Miniwallah, somewhere in the slums; apparently used so they could put a Brit. load of passengers in it if neccessary.
There were four lift shafts but only enough money for two lifts so two shafts were empty; no gates, no barriers, no lights, nothing.
The rooms had four taps on the basins. One pair had obviously gunged up so badly that they had renewed the entire water system; and had left the old one, complete wtih taps, there.
The kitchens were extensively fly-screened; so as to stop the flies getting into the dining room.

tanked Javelins to somewhere in India for some exercise, that would have been between Oct 62 and Oct 64.

That was Exercse Shiksha at the end of October 1963, which was a token reinforcement of the Indian Air Force whilst they were having a noisy discussion with the Chinese about strips of land in the Himalayas. A joint effort with four 90 Sqn tankers assisting. This one at Bombay is taxiing to our dispersal after refuelling.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-2-2010_022_zps0fff945c.jpg

We were only there for a few days during which they lost a Javelin and some were then tanked onwards to Tengah.

Some of you may remember the the towing facilities for the ground power units.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-2-2010_023_zpsa95d8bc6.jpg

The medical officer who came with us to Butterworth is worth another thread.

Correction. They didn't lose the Javelin. The navigator saved the aircraft by ejecting when the pilot overpitched it.

[Pontius Navigator]

One of the tanker squadron commanders Wg Cdr Burberry

Ulf Burberry, a charming man. Met his at Offutt in 1965 when he was one of the targeting officers I think. He introduced us to the French Air Force 'observers' as de Gaulle had just left the NATO military command but in practice nothing had really changed.

He then arrange for us to visit the underground ops bunker. It was pure Strangeglove unlike the WW2 bunker at High Wycombe.

[Art Field]

Ulf Burberry created some unfortunate friction between the two tanker squadrons by attempting to reinvent the wheel. 214 had been devising techniques for the safe and effective operation of tanking which could not be changed at the drop of a bonedome. Some of his ideas were possibly way before their time. His deployment into Gan with al load of Javelins has something of a Black Buck feel to it. 214 did not get it too wrong as little has changed over the years

[ian16th]

There is a detachment to remember.
Fareastdriver,

Nice pics.


'THE' most memorable 214 tanking detachment during my time was the time that we sent one of our own Valiants non-stop to Singapore.

This was early 1960. We were to position tankers in Cyprus and Karachi to re-fuel the Singapore a/c. I was in the party that was in Karachi (Mauripur).

Before the trip we were briefed that we were the 1st RAF people to return to Pakistan since Independence, I have since learnt that this was probably untrue.

We were also warned of the dangers of 'disease' and we were to be given pills to alleviate 'stomach problems'. These pills were in 3 strengths and different colours. We were also to keep a 'score sheet' of our bowel movements! Complete with an indication of the consistency, as 'H' for hard, 'S' for soft and 'L' for liquid. We were also allocated a Medical Officer from SSQ and a Supply Officer from Stores.

We were paid in shiny new Pakistan Rupee notes, generously supplied at the official exchange rate, R13 = £1, by the Pakistan High Commission in London.

Transport Command kindly allocated a Hastings for us ground crew and our spares. This meant a 3 day journey, each way, with night stops in El Adem and Khormaksor and re-fueling stops at Luqa and Khartoum.

On arrival at Mauripur we were segregated. Officers were to have the privilege of being accommodated on base in the Officers Mess. We non-commissioned types, which included all of the technical ground crew and about 3 or 4 NCO aircrew, were to be accommodated in a hotel in Karachi. Guess who got the better deal?:ok:

Anyway, after a couple of days our score cards were getting well used. It quickly became apparent which of the pills were the strongest, but only by a day or so. Our M.O. was the hardest worked guy on the trip. He quickly organised a supply bottled soft drinks from the local Coke supplier, we were told to not even clean our teeth with the tap water. I, fortunately, had bought a bottle of duty free Gin in Aden. It was used for teeth cleaning!

In general life was simply ‘orrible.:eek:

When hailing a Taxi, before being asked for a destination, we were asked if we had any Sterling, Dollars or Travellers Cheques and offered R20 = £1 as a start. R22 was easily got with a little negotiation. As a consequence the shiny new notes didn’t get spent.

To re-fuel the return flight of the non-stop a/c from Singapore, our tanker air crews flew with towels as ‘nappies’! They had the benefit of wearing their oxygen masks while flying, but when they landed and the door was opened, they got out, but no ground crew entered for some considerable time.

The return trip by Hastings also had its moments.

When we landed at Khormaksor, the M.O. read out a list of 6 names. These guys, who had been working doing pre-flights that morning, were to be loaded onto the Ambulance that met the Hastings taken to SSQ and to be returned to the UK when fit.

We were also told that to rest the Hastings crew, who had done nothing for nearly 3 weeks! We were to stop over in Khormaksor for 2 nights. It was Whitsuntide Weekend, remember when that was a holiday?

The rest of nominally ‘fit’ guys were told to rest and drink plenty of liquid. To which of course some wag shouts out, ‘Does that include beer Doc?’ To which the M.O. replies in the affirmative. This advice I have being following ever since.:D

So we spent the spare day at the NAAFI Club at Steamer Point gently drinking and steaming.

The next morning we had an early take off and when we were in the air, the M.O. noticed that some faces that should have been in SSQ at Khormaksor. They had broken out of SSQ, via the windows!

Next bit really messy.:eek:

Our flight from Khormaksor to Khartoum was of course over Ethiopia and its mountains. Now remember the Hastings was un-pressurised so we flew below 10,000 ft. This meant that we bounced about the sky quite a lot. The Hastings also did not have flush toilets, but was fitted with the dreaded Elsan’s.

Note the combination.

Low flying a/c, rough air, Elsan toilets and a load of pax with dysentery!

For all of the wrong reasons, it was the most memorable flight that I have ever made. Getting off for the re-fuelling stop at Khartoum was a wonderful relief, getting back on, for the leg to El Adem, was not.

When we returned to Marham, 214 took over a complete ward in SSQ. Even though we were all unwell, I’m sure that you can imagine the antics created by having such a group from the same Sqdn, all in SSQ together. I’m sure the staff of SSQ was very pleased to see the back of us.

We had one last problem, the shiny new Pakistan Rupee's. The Pakistan High Commission didn't want them back. But The Accounts Dept at Marham had to give us Sterling at 13:1. We were never given Rupee's in advance ever again.

I’m pleased to say that this was my last flight in a Hastings, Transport Command always managed to supply a Britannia after that. Pure luxury, pressurized, hot food, smoking allowed and oh, FLUSH TOILETS!:ok::ok::ok:

[NRU74]

Pontius and Zetec
Are you sure XD816 was the last Valiant flying ?
I went to some sort of 'end of the Valiant/543 Sqn' 'do' at Wyton in circa 1965 and I'm fairly sure the aircraft which arrived with a 'Wisley' civilian crew was XD818

[Pontius Navigator]

NRU, I am merely quoting a book which had a photo of 816 to support that contention.

[Pontius Navigator]

I seemed to recall that the Valiant had a system called Flood Flow. In the event of loss of cabin pressure flood flow would kick in to provide ram air to the cabin. I believe this was intended to increase cabin air pressure.

When Flood Flow kicked in a circular panel, about the size of a dustbin lid, was ejected from under the wing.

Once during a prod from a Javelin Flood Flow kicked in uncommanded firing the dustbin lid at the Javelin. I believe it was disabled thereafter.

Any Valiant drivers able to confirm or deny the story?

[Hipper]

In the book 'Jet Bomber Pilot', Robby Robinson tells the story (page 105 onwards) of a successful attempt to fly a Valiant non-stop from the UK to Chicago taking along a stone for the new cathedral to be built there.

The idea was conceived by ACM 'Bing' Cross and the 90 squadron aircraft was flown by Ulf Burberry. Robinson in XD815 was to go to Goose Bay and then refuel Burberry in that area, both on the outward and return journeys. It seems the refueling on the outward sortie was completed in very difficult weather conditions ('40 degrees below zero) on the 16th January (1962 I think). He says the refueling wasn't carried out on the return leg.

It's quite an entertaining read of their time at Goose Bay.

[TheVulcan]

Hi! Vulcan Boys comes out next May and I'd like to complete trilogy with Valiant Boys. Looking for personal accounts and photos of Valiant operations as a Bomber and as a Tanker. Please contact me or Anthony Wright as soon as possible Please spread the word around. Would like Engineers/crew chiefs input as well as aircrew.

[TheVulcan]

I'm writing a book called Valiant Boys and am currently trying to contact Valiant Engineers, Crew Chiefs or Officers. If you can help please contact me. My email is on my page of my web site Aviation Books and Mystery Novels By Tony Blackman (http://www.blackmanbooks.co.uk)

[p beech]

Hi
Sad to report death of R I Howard who contributed much to threads concerning Valiant problems and thereby stimulated useful discussion about the properties of the alloys used in the construction of that aeroplane.
P Beech

[racingrigger]

Going back to the demise of the Valiant, I recall being involved in the scrappage programme at Marham in early to mid 1965. Once the decision was made most of the ground crew (of which I was one) where split up into teams to remove various items before the final "cutting up" process began. Two Valiants at a time were moved into the 4 hangers and each "team" was given a week to remove all classified equipment, non special to type components, explosive devices (eg ejector seats, explosive bolts etc) and anything else the MOD deemed worth saving. Also included in the stripping, was the removal of 2 complete forward fuselages/cockpits for sale to MGM for use in the filming of the James Bond film Thunderball and the removal and retention of 20 tailplanes, for use by RAe Farnborough for destructive testing. Engines were removed, taken to a compound near the airfield boundary (formerly 242Sqns Bloodhound site), lifted off the engine change trolleys and thrown onto the ground in Lots of 10 to be sold off to the scrap merchants. All luminous items around the cockpit and various external air intakes, vents and scoops, including pitot heads etc were either removed or chopped out, because of their supposed radio active contamination. Indeed our overalls had to be changed and disposed of as contaminated waste at the end of each week for the same reason.

One of my final tasks before posting was assisting in the preservation of XD818 and its towing onto the pre-prepared base outside the Ops Centre. Incidentally 818 was one of what I believe was one of four aircraft to have their wings reinforced with double skinning in various places, evidently to cope with increased stress during a particular operation. If you visit the RAF Cosford Museum and care to look at the underside of 818s mainplanes outboard of the landing gear you can see the multiple close rows of rivets attaching the extra skin(s). It may be that one of these "reinforced" Valiants was the last to fly sometime after the main fleet was grounded.

[Fareastdriver]

If you visit the RAF Cosford Museum and care to look at the underside of 818s mainplanes

I believe that when 818 was moved from Marham to Cosford the wings were cut off. On reassembly the reinforcing plates were required to hold the wings on.

[NRU74]

[QUOTE was given a week to remove all classified equipment[/QUOTE]

As a matter of interest, what equipment was still deemed classified in 1965 ?
Some of the kit eg Gee with the Universal Indicator, was World War 2 ish
There was no ECM, Window Dispensers and Orange Putter were hardly ‘state of the art’.

[Tankertrashnav]

Hadn't been aware of Orange Putter before so I Googled it. My first attempt produced page after page of colourful golf clubs until I had the idea of adding the word "radar" to my search criteria!

[ian16th]

Hadn't been aware of Orange Putter before so I Googled it. My first attempt produced page after page of colourful golf clubs until I had the idea of adding the word "radar" to my search criteria!
Did you find out that it was the most spread out piece of kit in a Valiant?

The indicator was in front of the co-pilot, there was a junction box in front of the AEO, the waveform generator was up the Organ Loft and the Tx/Rx was the extremity of the fuselage.

Changing a Tx/Rx in the dark & cold of a winters night, was in modern parlance, a bit of a challenge.

It also wasn't a very good piece of kit.

I might have some course notes in the garage. I know I still have the Green Satin ones, and they were both on the same 'Fitter Bomber' course.

It was supposed to be for 'tail warning' of hostile a/c. On 214 in the IFR trials days, there were hopes of using it to detect incoming receivers, but in general it wasn't much help.

Edited to add.
The commonest reported problem was spurious 'Wings Range' audio warnings been fed into the intercom, so the OP was switched off!

I dunno if Red Steer was better, as that was after my time.

[Fareastdriver]

The indicator was in front of the co-pilot,

Pedantic mode on: It was in front of the captain between the elevator trim indicator lights and the port landing lamp switch.

Cos. my copy of Pilot's Notes says so.

[ian16th]

Pedantic mode on: It was in front of the captain between the elevator trim indicator lights and the port landing lamp switch.

Cos. my copy of Pilot's Notes says so.

:uhoh: I claim senility!

Being in the RH seat, you had the knob for the low level Radio Altimeter Mk V and the 'traffic lights' in front of you.

[Fareastdriver]

Correct; you're not that senile.

[pontifex]

Racingrigger is right. 818 was a 49 Sqn machine before the test ban treaty and took part in operation Grapple. I know because it is my logbook. All Grapple aircraft had the reinforced wings because it was feared that the blast wave from a weapon might prove too much. It was certainly a bit bumpy but it felt no worse than moderate to strong turbulence. Are you sure that 818 went tanking? 49 went to Marham after our fun was curtailed and became main force. When the Valiants were grounded and 818 was to be parked outside the Ops block I was its inventory holder (a secondary duty for co-pilots). I collected all the paperwork, both flying and technical, bundled them up, had then vacuum wrapped and left on the nav's shelf. Never knew what happened to it but now I do. It's living with my Pucara!

[RedhillPhil]

Srill on Valiants but on a slight tangent. When I was an Operations Instructor with British Rail circa 1981 I came across a chap called "Doug", I can't recall his surname. I mentioned that my pop had been in the R.A.F. and that we had been at Gaydon 1963-67. Doug's eyes lit up. He explained that he had been a pilot and he was on the first squadron of Valiants that were formed at Gaydon before moving to....I can't remember where he said. He was quite a small chap of about five foot six or seven.
Anyone know him - assuming that his tale was true and he did seem genuine.

[Fareastdriver]

Are you sure that 818 went tanking?

When I escorted my Whirlwind brethren through 818 in 1966 at Marham, Ops having given me the keys, it was finished in grey green camouflage so I presume it was a Main Force aeroplane.

When I saw it at Cosford it had just arrived and the fuselage was scarred along the wing mountings where there had been some serious metal cutting. IIRC the Valiant core was the bomb bay roof with large webs that enclosed the engines. The wings were tacked on to these with rivets.

It was obvious from the state of 818 that the webs had been cut so as to remove the wings, therefore the wing refits had to be botched.

[ian16th]

If 818 'went tanking' it wasn't with 214, might have been the other lot.

[Pontius Navigator]

Pontiflex, did you know "Ted" Dunne on Grapple?

[Fareastdriver]

If 818 'went tanking' it wasn't with 214, might have been the other lot.

It was never with the Honington Social Club.

Addendum. Some people work hard to make life difficult; others arrange it so that it is pleasant.

[NRU74]

I dunno if Red Steer was better, as that was after my time.
It was better, but not that much. Not sure about 18 Sqn but all the other Valiant squadrons had Orange Putter not Red Steer.
To test Orange Putter and Red Steer a special Very Cartridge was used containing ‘chaff’.You switched the equipment on then put the round in the Very Pistol and fired it and then looked for the radar return.
Re other equipment on the Valiant, did the bomber or tanker squadrons have Yellow Aster ?

[superplum]

To test Orange Putter and Red Steer a special Very Cartridge was used containing ‘chaff’.You switched the equipment on then put the round in the Very Pistol and fired it and then looked for the radar return.

Cartridge 1 1/2 in Radar Echo Warning - Thanks for stirring my brain cell.
:ok:

[Herod]

All interesting stuff. I'm working at Cosford on Sunday, so I'll go take a look.

[bosnich71]

After all these years I would just like to know why I was posted from Bruggen,24/12/1964 to 214 Sqdn.Honington .....that’s correct posted to a Squadron with duff Aircraft ...to join a heap of other bored ground crew scratching themselves waiting for the one Victor sortie per day courtesy of 55/57 Squadron.

[ian16th]

It was better, but not that much. Not sure about 18 Sqn but all the other Valiant squadrons had Orange Putter not Red Steer.
To test Orange Putter and Red Steer a special Very Cartridge was used containing ‘chaff’.You switched the equipment on then put the round in the Very Pistol and fired it and then looked for the radar return.
Re other equipment on the Valiant, did the bomber or tanker squadrons have Yellow Aster ?

I never heard of Yellow Aster. So most likely not fitted to Valiant's.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear about Red Steer.

I was aware that Red Steer wasn't fitted to Valiant's. But being a later development, I thought that it might have been a significant improvement.

To make a really good tail warning radar in those days, it would have needed AI Mk21 from the Lightning fitted to the tail of a bomber.

[ian16th]

After all these years I would just like to know why I was posted from Bruggen,24/12/1964 to 214 Sqdn.Honington .....that’s correct posted to a Squadron with duff Aircraft ...to join a heap of other bored ground crew scratching themselves waiting for the one Victor sortie per day courtesy of 55/57 Squadron.

I also was on 214 at that date, but I was at Marham, so we wouldn't have met :oh:

Fareastdriver may know more.

[The Oberon]

After all these years I would just like to know why I was posted from Bruggen,24/12/1964 to 214 Sqdn.Honington .....that’s correct posted to a Squadron with duff Aircraft ...to join a heap of other bored ground crew scratching themselves waiting for the one Victor sortie per day courtesy of 55/57 Squadron.

Not just me then, as a bright eyed, bushy tailed, newly passed out JT, I was posted to Marham where the wreckers had already moved in. It didn't do much for morale, hanging about watching aircraft being torched up before being carted away.

Red Steer Mk1 (ARI 5919) was originally developed as AI20, in case there were problems with AI23. It only became a tail warner when 23 turned out OK. Great improvement over OP. The Mk2 (ARI5959) was even better.

[Fareastdriver]

I was posted from Bruggen,24/12/1964 to 214 Sqdn.Honington

That was definitely 90 Sqn.

XD814 was the first to go. We aircrew had no warning that the fleet was going to be broken up; they were still talking about resparring etc.. We were sitting in the crew room and 214 was towed past, flaps and engine panels hanging down looking a sorry mess.

Despite that we kept flying.

I delivered XD 863 to Filton on 20th Oct: XD 820 to St. Athan on 9th November. A Lone Ranger to Khormaksa with XD813 on 22nd November.

Honington's runway was closed for resurfacing in December so our remaining serviceable aircraft were repositioned at Marham and I took XD 820 up there on 3rd December.

On the 8th December I was a on a night Frex with Lightnings from 92 at Leconfield. On one engagement the basket detached from the hose and locked itself over the Lightning's probe. He then bolted off back to Leconfield where apparently he had considerable difficulty landing with the asymmetric drag.

We did the normal bomb bay ventilation procedures and returned to Marham. As we crossed the threshold I saw a Valiant at the holding point with a Standard Vanguard Estate drawn across the front of it. This was to prevent it taking off as the Valiants had been grounded. Shortly after a bomber landed and that was it.............

[ian16th]

That was definitely 90 Sqn.
Oh! You mentioned that number.:uhoh:

[Fareastdriver]

I believe that 214 Sqn had to run around and look all steely whenever there was a Mick or Micky Finn.

When the hooters went I just rolled over in bed; We had two Victor Squadrons to do all that stuff.

[Herod]

FWIW, I've just been looking at the records available to the public on the Cosford website. It records that 818 went to 32 MU at Hurn on 16 Jul 61 for modifications to a tanker., although several flights are recorded after this, until 28 Sep 62, when it was returned to 49 Sqn. If anyone wants to read what Cosford has, here is the link. https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/1994-1352-A-Valiant-XD818.pdf

[RetiredBA/BY]

That was definitely 90 Sqn.

XD814 was the first to go. We aircrew had no warning that the fleet was going to be broken up; they were still talking about resparring etc.. We were sitting in the crew room and 214 was towed past, flaps and engine panels hanging down looking a sorry mess.

Despite that we kept flying.

I delivered XD 863 to Filton on 20th Oct: XD 820 to St. Athan on 9th November. A Lone Ranger to Khormaksa with XD813 on 22nd November.

Honington's runway was closed for resurfacing in December so our remaining serviceable aircraft were repositioned at Marham and I took XD 820 up there on 3rd December.

On the 8th December I was a on a night Frex with Lightnings from 92 at Leconfield. On one engagement the basket detached from the hose and locked itself over the Lightning's probe. He then bolted off back to Leconfield where apparently he had considerable difficulty landing with the asymmetric drag.

We did the normal bomb bay ventilation procedures and returned to Marham. As we crossed the threshold I saw a Valiant at the holding point with a Standard Vanguard Estate drawn across the front of it. This was to prevent it taking off as the Valiants had been grounded. Shortly after a bomber landed and that was it.............

Are you sure of the date, 8th December. My log book shows my last landing on 9th December, 865,
F/l Gibbons, capt., me in RHS. Was that the last Valiant sortie, I vaguely remember being recalled?

[The Oberon]

As previously posted, I arrived at Marham and the wreckers had already started, this would have been Jan. 65. What struck me as odd was that Marham was still holding QRA, I remember this because in addition to the RAF police guard, each A/C had a rather large USAF "Custodian" on the pan.

[racingrigger]

I stand corrected, thanks Pontifex, it was obviously 8 Valiants modified for Grapple not the 4 I stated. An interesting aside; during the scrapping process and coincident to the craze at the time of fitting compasses to cars, the two E2B Standby Compasses fitted to one particular aircraft "disappeared" during the dismantling process! These compasses were not "special to type" and were to be returned through the normal channels for use on other aircraft. Just before lunch on the day they had disappeared the flight commander assembled all the dis-mantling team, read them the "riot act" and advised that if the two missing compasses had not been returned by the time lunch was over, the RAF Police would be called in.

After lunch I accompanied the Flight Commander into the cockpit of the aircraft concerned to find both compasses refitted in their rightful places with a third lying on its side in the middle of the coaming! Somebody obviously took fright, but it was never established where the third one came from!

[Fareastdriver]

My log book shows my last landing on 9th December, 865,

Could well be the 9th. I would fill in my log book monthly but when we shut down we were told that the Valiants had been grounded.

Somebody told me that when the Station Commander got the message he tried to phone ATC to stop everything. There was no reply so he drove around the airfield to tell them personally. That's when he met a Valiant coming the other way.

[Fareastdriver]

Herod.

It records that 818 went to 32 MU at Hurn on 16 Jul 61 for modifications to a tanker

A fair number of Valiants were 'modified' as tankers. The fuelling and fuel delivery system was modified so that if a probe was fitted to the stub then all tanks could be refuelled from the probe. With this came the ability to pump underwing, forward. transfer and bomb bay tank, if fitted, fuel to a central point in the bomb bay. The obvious clue is the pipe housing that wraps around the cockpit so the fuel line does not go through the pressure cabin.

We picked up a 543 Sqn Valiant in about 1963 and it was on the line as a tanker within a week.

The Victor's did go through the cabin and one day the pipe sprang a leak. The crew found themselves up to their backsides in fuel so they went to emergency oxygen and flew it back. They tried to warn the ground crew about it but were unsuccessful. Somebody opened the door and found themselves staring up at eighteen inches of Avtur.

[ian16th]

Herod.

We picked up a 543 Sqn Valiant in about 1963 and it was on the line as a tanker within a week.

For the Vulcan that flew none-stop from Scampton to Sydney, 214 had to put Valiant's in Cyprus-Karachi-Singapore. We didn't have enough a/c, so we borrowed one from one of the other Marham Sqdn's, it was fitted with a HDU very quickly.

So as FED says, the basics must have been fitted earlier.

[ian16th]

I rejoined 214 in Oct 64, returning to Marham as my posting of choice for my last 6 months of service. I was pleased to be assigned to my old squadron and see old friends, but it was a heartbreaking period.

There was very little flying and the a/c were subjected to daily 'anti-deterioration checks'. This for the radio trades was almost the same as a pre-flight.

From my point of view, the lack of work meant that when I requested leave for job interviews I got the days I wanted. So the demise of the Valiant had a small silver lining.

When I left RAF Marham, and 214 Sqdn for the second time, on Friday 5th February 1965 to commence my demob leave; the decision to scrap the Valiant had not reached the Squadrons.

I believe it happened the next week.

[Fareastdriver]

5th February 1965 to commence my demob leave; the decision to scrap the Valiant had not reached the Squadrons.

Marham still had the Nato nuclear deterrent so politically there were still operational.

Daun Sauf at Honington we had already packed it in so I was fully occupied with Chipmunk WP850, at that time in a camouflage finish being ex Cyprus, running an air experience flight for all our squadron groundcrew.

[Herod]

I was at Cosford today, and had a look at 818. There don't appear to be any multiple rows of rivets, and if I can I'll post a couple of photos. From what I can gather, the wings were removed when it was transported to Cosford, but this was just a case of dismantling and reassembling. No cutting involved. BTW, she still looks a pretty aeroplane.

Sorry, can't post pictures at the moment. Will try later.

[rickyricks]

DTD 683
Just to set the record straight about the issues with the UK aluminium alloy DTD 683. This alloy was a refinement of an earlier alloy (DTD 363) and was a member of the 7xxx alloys (as designated today) and contained the major alloying elements zinc, copper and magnesium. The alloy was developed by High Duty Alloys, based in Slough where they had a large research and development centre. It was first shown to the public around 1937 and was given the trade name Hiduminium RR77. This alloy suffered from poor resistance to stress corrosion cracking (SCC) and was particularly prone to SCC as a result of quenched-in residual stresses. DTD 683 is strengthened by precipitation hardening - the formation of nano-meter sized intermetallic particles in the aluminium matrix by a combination of high temperature heat treatment, quenching and then ageing to form the precipitates. After quenching and ageing the residual stresses in the component were sufficient to drive SCC, hence the unused spars developing cracks during storage. It was this, rather than fatigue, that caused the failure of DTD 683 as used in the Valiant, although fatigue stresses in service obviously didn't help.
Note the USA developed a similar alloy, today known as AA7075, which contains a small chromium addition and Alcoa in America used this alloy successfully in the B29 Superfortress, amongst others. High Duty Alloys did not like the use of chromium as it tended to make the alloy less strong unless given a severe quench, which of course, increased the residual stresses. The UK alloy underwent various changes to composition and process, including chromium containing variants and boiling water quenching, but was ultimately dropped from use when over-aged tempers were developed which reduced the susceptibility of the American alloy to SCC, but did not work with the UK alloy due to the lower copper level used.
I understand the R&D effort of High Duty Alloys was led by one William Doyle who was apparently a very "colourful" gentleman in his time.

[Wander00]

Anyone remember a nav by the name of Andy McHugh, sadly I believe no longer with us. Andy and I were in the same year at Harrow County School. He joined the RAF "direct entry" about the same time I went to the Towers. After the Valiants were grounded a party of "ex" Valiant aircrew came on a visit to Cranwell. Amongst them was Andy as a fg off with nav brevet, I was still ploughing through, but close to the end of, the Towers course. I always wondered where he went after that

[Pontius Navigator]

Anyone remember a nav by the name of Andy McHugh, sadly I believe no longer with us. Andy and I were in the same year at Harrow County School. He joined the RAF "direct entry" about the same time I went to the Towers. After the Valiants were grounded a party of "ex" Valiant aircrew came on a visit to Cranwell. Amongst them was Andy as a fg off with nav brevet, I was still ploughing through, but close to the end of, the Towers course. I always wondered where he went after that
Andy Mac Chuguhuff was posted to Javelins but fortunately they discovered an anthropomorphic incompatible - he would have lost his knees. Where he went after that for two tours I do not know but from the outset he was slated to be a radar operator and I next saw him of phantoms at Coningsby as a flt cdr. It is possible he had gone to Sea Vixen before F4.

[JW411]

We had a Nav called Andy McHugh on 105 Sqn (Argosys) in Aden. Great chap but sadly no longer with us.

[Pontius Navigator]

JW, so not Sea Vixens but Argosy when did he go then?

[Wander00]

OK, Guys, many thanks. W

[racingrigger]

For HEROD _ I thought memory was playing tricks but having just been to Cosford and had a look at XD 818 the multiple rows of rivets securing the reinforcing skins for Op Grapple are indeed present. Look at the mainplanes outboard of the underwing tanks and you will see many, many rows of rivets from mid wing to trailing edge all the way outboard to the wing tip.

[Fareastdriver]

When I was on 90 Sqn. in the early sixties I flew with Fred Jones. He was a keen cine enthusiast and would take moving pictures when ever he could. In 1963 we wen off to India and the Fareast on Exercise Shiksha. He made a movie of the occasion and his son gave me an electronic copy after Fred's death this year. I had doubts about sharing it but it is now on Youtube so it is in the public domain.

Sorry about that. I took a closer look at the Youtube entry and it states that it is not on the search menu and only available via a link. On that basis I have to consider it as private so I have deleted it.

[hunterboy]

A pity about the link deletion as it sounds like a real piece of British aviation history, taken from the grass roots level rather than the Pathe propaganda perspective.

[Wensleydale]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1307/image_01_cd00e14e073b458595b3329ea69b9f96bd957df1.jpg

[ICM]

I clearly missed this thread back in May. Andy McHugh was with me on 21 Argosy Course, March - August 1966 and then, as mentioned, to 105 Sqn in Aden. The ARDET site shows his death as having been in July 2008.

[ian16th]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x396/10s_9382014c653f598f9b392fb0b6e527872c75a02f.jpg
214 at Gan 1960. Taking Javelins home after a SEATO exercise. The Brit is for us Erks to follow in.

[ian16th]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x415/13s_a538b2cc2d1404cc46a1f513dc03e85d85919880.jpg
Jav's following the Valiant's.

[ian16th]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x419/03s_2045ac9ac8d6b18efcf97c7a110a6ff5c0c95fca.jpg
We started early, but the sun came up quickly on the Equator.

[Shackman]

Nice pictures of Gan dispersal there Ian (Incidentally, I think some of the (now deleted) link were filmed at Gan as well - spent many two week stints on SAR standby in those huts).

[Herod]

Racingrigger. Yes, I agree about the rivets fixing the reinforcing plates. I was at Cosford this afternoon, but my picture loading is playing up. Maybe later. However, I think the original conversation was concerning whether the wings had been riveted on after being removed for transportation to the museum. What was the thinking behind the strengthening plates? Was there concern about blast effect?

[Fareastdriver]

I saw 818 in a semi dismantled state when it arrived at Cosford. The main spars had definitely been cut just outboard of the fuselage. I seem to remember from my Valiant conversion course that the basic structure was a reinforced cross that consisted of the fuselage backbone and the wing root structure out to the undercarriage mountings.

818 had been cut almost level with the fuselage skin.

[Herod]

I think I know what you mean. There are rivets there. I'm not out for several weeks, but I'll check next time. If this works, a picture of the reinforcing panels.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_1328_691e5f70f675043a97c9199875b4feafced4510c.jpg
And the wing/fuselage root.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_1330_2ab6a70ff1d9abc94ed50d7d407c522b08f0637e.jpg

[Fareastdriver]

The rivets in front of the aileron look pretty standard to me. The engine panels underneath the engines the same. Any re-attaching wings to fuselage welding would have been hidden by the same panels.

[Herod]

Fareastdriver: I'll give way to your knowledge on this. Apart from a valiant that visited RAAF Pearce when I was a teenager, this is the only example I've been up close and personal with. Regarding the riveted panels in the first picture, were they a standard part of the aircraft, or add-ons for the mission it undertook?

[racingrigger]

When the 8 Valiants were modified in readiness for Op Grapple the outer wings were strengthened by double skinning (hence the multiple rows of rivets securing the extra skin). At the time it was suspected that the aircraft may have experienced severe turbulence as a result of the blast catching up with the departing aircraft - I believe all previous weapons tests had been carried out with the "bomb" mounted on a tower - this was to be the first air drop.

[Herod]

Thanks, racingrigger. That would make sense. Always a day to learn something.