Two NERCs?

[BEXIL160]

Dear All (and before I start, apologies to non-NERC people but you might be interested in this... if not, well accept my apologies and click on another topic>..)

Where was I?...

Ah yes... NERC / LACC/ Swanwick Centre has been operational for a while now. I might be alone, but am I begining to see more than a little resentment from the "office" staff towards us "operational" staff?

It appears to me that "They" had the run of the place for six years or so before the pesky ATCOs and ATSA's turned up and started to ruin their cosy little world. Indeed, using the place for what was actually designed for, an ACC, was NOT on their agenda at all.

Now forgive me if I've got this wrong, but aren't they the Support Staff? Isn't the prime function of NERC "Operational ATC", and aren't they supposed to be supporting us in providing that service? From what i've seen they spend lots of time supporting each other, but little time supporting us.

One more thing. Look at the NERC Car Park. Any weekend or Public Holiday will do. It's about one fifth full. All the operational Staff (ATSAs, ATCOs and OE staff) are "in". NERC functions as it should. Come a weekday however and that same car park is FULL. Question: what do all those extra people all DO, exactly? Not all strictly REQUIRED for the operation of NERC, otherwise they'd be around at the weekend n'est pas?

Perhaps I am wrong. Have others felt animosity from the "office" staff? Are there "TWO NERCs"? One for the operational staff, and another run purely for the benefit of "office workers"?

Comments?

Rgds BEX:(

[BEXIL160]

A quick P.S.

I'm sure that the majority of the "support Staff" above are jolly decent people, it just seems that they're not fully aware of exactly what NERC is actually FOR.

Rgds BEX

[Loki]

It was exactly the same at W Drayton wasn`t it? However, I`m puzzled at the disciminatory behaviour towards operational staff, who are, after all, the revenue generators.

A prime example of this is the failure to open the coffee lounge at weekends.

[niknak]

Bex.......... This is exactly the sort of crap you should be posting on the NATS forum, isn't that what it's there for?:rolleyes:

I know that you state at the start that the content is of interest mostly to NATS bods, but you usually have reasonably interesting things to say - this wasn't one of them, and you've wasted 30 seconds of my time.;)

The bill is in the post.:p :p :p

[PPRuNe Radar]

niknak

Bex.......... This is exactly the sort of crap you should be posting on the NATS forum, isn't that what it's there for?

Now, if you briefed yourself properly before coming on duty here on the Forum, you would know that the NATS Forum is currently u/s until Danny has sorted out how we are going to work out access privileges. ;) ;) ;)

Anyone seen the Forum LCE anywhere ??

[Scott Voigt]

Actually, I for one am glad that the NATS forum is down so that we on the other side can see what is going on within NATS...

regards

[NorthernSky]

Quite right, Scott!

niknak, who gave you the right to control who posts where? You sound like a management lapdog.

Bex, keep it coming.

HF experts will agree that, for example, 'discriminating against' operational staff by making some facilities unavailable at weekends will drive morale down. Really, these matters should have been sorted out in the design and definition phase. It cost enough didn't it?

[Over+Out]

I agree with the comments of Bexil.
I think his comments are well written and reflect what the workers at the coal face think.
Its a shame our Management don't listen.

[Karoshi]

To be honest, if I was working in operational support I would probably feel a little antagonstic towards you now. In just one post you've mangaged to tar all support staff with the same brush and put yourself on a pedestal because you are operational. We are actually all in this together and if you're not sure exactly what all the support staff do, perhaps the onus is on you to find out before you put their jobs down. I can think of numerous support postions that are vital to operational staff but do not need to work at weekends, ATCI for instance.

I would agree with the previous message, you've posted some good messages before but this one is divisive and probaly an opinion that would have been best kept to yourself.

[foo fighting]

Here here Bex, couldn't agree more.

The LTCC car park is behaving in the same strange manner as its shiny new cousin down south. Can't be too long before we are turned into the evil minority to be looked down upon by the hordes flooding in here monday to friday.

Up the operational staff revolution !

[BEXIL160]

The intention is not to put myself, or any of my colleagues, on a pedestal. Nor is it to "put down" the support staff. Providing a service to the ATC staff does not mean being subserviant.

The PRIMARY function of NERC is as an ATCC that operates 24/7. Providing that service is a team effort. We are all members of that team, right from the cleaners thru Group4 "Security:rolleyes: " to the operational controllers. We all have our roles to play in providing that service .

The role of the support staff is just that, to support the operational staff. I am not denigrating that task. It is essential. My point is that it is not always being done well. There is a suspicion that the "office staff" have lost touch with the reality of being part of the ATCC team and what that means.

There are of course always individuals that go out of their way to help.

To use current "management speak", as a controller my customers are the aircraft that I direct around the sky, safely, orderly and efficiently. If I fail in my task my "customers" would be very quick to complain and I would do something about it.

Operational staff are customers of the support services. Are we getting the best possible support?

BEX

[Numpo-Nigit]

Typical ATCO viewpoint!!! You obviously do not understand the much-publicised "two centre strategy". Surely you are not still of the opinion that a "New Scottish Centre" will ever be built.

No, the real "two centre strategy" is being trialled now at Swanwick. The support staff are carrying out a serious exercise in determining just how separate they can become, work which would normally have been carried out at the ATMDC (at far greater cost).

Have you not noticed that each vital management function is being carried out by two members of the SMG group? Already stage one of the evaluation is nearly complete, and we are about to enter phase two. This will entail a second ORO being created, initially to shadow the current ORO, but ultimately to provide the vital redundancy to ensure that inaccurate watch rosters can continue to be produced in the event of a catastrophe involving the current ORO.

In the longer term look for a second smoking hut, Securicor to provide a second tier of security and an additional tranche of support personnel to ensure that no real decisions can ever be reached.

Only then will Swanwick be ready to receive the refugees from Manchester, Scottish and LATCC, whilst Stephen Byers and the NERC Board continue to laud the "two centre strategy" currently being successfully implemented.

[BEXIL160]

:D :D :D

Thank you Numpo. Obviously as a mere ATCO I would not have the mental capacity for understanding the essential management structure and decision making/enhancing processes.

I shall retire to my simple and meaningless task as a radar controller.

BEX;) ;)

[Dinosaur]

Animosity from the office staff? Damn' right! You guys eat all our food, take the best parking places, ...

Er, sorry -- joke.

This post worries me because of who wrote it. There are many pointless ranters here but, BEXIL160, you are not among them. So I pay attention to what you say.

Besides that, after many years of fielding big systems like NERC I know that your basic premise is true: the needs of the operational users have to come first.

But you'll have to be a bit more specific: What are you missing on those Saturday afternoons?

I've seen a few (remarkably few!) technical problems discussed here: fonts, voice quality, NAS. You may feel that these aren't being adequately addressed (I know that's true in the case of NAS), and I probably agree with you.

But the consensus of posters here seems to blame that on the organisational decision-making process (or the lack of money, which may stem from the same cause). I would argue that you won't get any better decisions on Saturday.

The rank-and-file support staff know you guys are out there. How can *we* help?

[BEXIL160]

Dinosaur.

Thank you for your reasoned input.

Essentially I made two points.

One: I don't think that the "office staff" truly have any concept of what happens at an ACC, or what the operational staff actually do. By "office staff" I do not mean the engineers who happen to work in offices, who may well be ham strung by NATS process or lack of money. We do get support from those "in the know" as far as possible.

My comments are directed towards those paper shufflers (and others) who could be working for ANY large company. NERC is a very pleasant environment for them. It becomes less so "after hours" or at weekends. Any query about the way they do things or the lack of availablity of services, is met with "Oh, you must be a controller/assistant/engineer". The implication being that you are just an awkward sod and "why don't you just bog off back to LATCC and leave us in peace". At least that's the way it seems, and I am not the only one to have run up against this attitude.

Two: I, like others, am amazed at the number of staff that materialise on a Monday. It is possible of course that they are all required, but I have my doubts. Re-inforced BTW by what I have learned here and elsewhere about NATS processes. Is it just possible that "modern business methods", as taught in MBAs etc really don't work well for NATS and just increase the management burden? Or, applying MBA sense, what do THESE people ADD to the business? Is a bigger cull in order?

Back to point one:I repeat, I am making personal attacks on no one. It concerns me that the office culture at Swanwick is not helping the operational staff as much as it might. Others seem to agree.

BEX

[BDiONU]

I have to agree with Numpo and Bex. NATS reminds me of the peacetime Air Force. The tail wags the dog. :(

[foo fighting]

Dinosaur,

Maybe you think that my previous post was a "pointless rant".

I would say that there is a lot of respect from atco's towards support staff, you may not believe that but that's up to you. We know that there is an enormous effort to provide the infrastructure that makes our job possible.

What you could do is stop to think what fuels comments like this. The average TC/AC atco does not feel valued in the slightest by our esteemed organisation whose reputation is based upon the performance and reputation of its operational staff. Despite providing an excellent service in the most complex and congested airspace in the world, thankyou to all the pilots who tell us that when the opportunity arises, we do not seem to be ANYWHERE near the focus of the company.

Atco's provide the 'air traffic service ' in National Air Traffic Services, that seems to be a little respected thought

[foo fighting]

Bex

Love your point 2.

Having had a working life outside of NATS it is plainly evident to me , and those of that same experience that, air traffic is not a business/operation/service that can exist as 'any other business'.

Despite any protest to the contrary it seems that it will not be too long before the perceived antagonism between operational staff and others may become a big problem. My completely personal , operational, view is that the apparent attitude from the carpark space fillers at Swanwick is very short sighted.

[niknak]

Bad NikNak..... :o
As things are hotting up, I think I'll stick around!:D

[Dinosaur]

Foo--

I found it incredibly difficult not to respond "If the Foo sh*ts, wear it", but...

No, I absolutely do NOT think this thread is a rant. I hope I made that clear in my first post. I'll say it again: In a big real-world system like NERC, the needs of the operational users MUST take priority.

I (and many others on my side of the car park) see the same problems you guys describe, and are just as frustrated by them. We are on your side.

The good news is that you guys are in a strong position. Keep banging the table, and eventually things will improve.

[sector8dear]

BEX you may well be right about some attitudes at LACC but just for the record (I'm still at LATCC) there are some important roles outside the operations room (software development etc).

These do not always require to be carried out on "shifts" and are thus done by those working 9 to 5 ish which is after all cheaper (No NOS for non-ops you know!) to NATS than shifts and spends less of the money so hard earned by you guys!

Good question though, and worth asking. I think that on occasion some admin staff would rather the "Operational" people went away, in the same way that passengers (SLC) b*gg*r up airline schedules etc
:D :D

[converse]

Out of interest have any of the ATC staff attempted to find out exactly how the "Office Staff" support ATC. Only a thought but it might help relations:rolleyes:

[BEXIL160]

Yes.

Always met with with same response. As listed above.

Again, I'm not talking about engineers, ATCI, etc in offices who KNOW what ATC is all about. No, I mean those who have NO IDEA (or wish to know) what the purpose of the building is. Indeed those who see the arrival of the operational staff as a BURDEN they could well do without.

I guess the issue here is MORALE. Or lack of it. More seriously it also has HF implications for the operational staff.

rgds BEX

[tug3]

Whats all this fuss about car parking spaces! I hear there is a plush new one up in Prestwick that constitutes just about all they'll ever see of their much publicised, (until recently!), New Scottish Centre. Operational staff for operational units - let the bean counters find a portacabin somewhere off the M25 and be done with it.

:)

----------------------------

Is that a '6' or an '8'

[converse]

Bex
You have the hump with Office Staff for some reason but i assure you that they are only to aware of the ATC Roll and have worked hard to get LACC ready for ALL ATC needs..........:confused: i am sure you should not tar them all with the same brush as they probably do not judge the ATC Staff on a few bad encounters........

[BEXIL160]

Except that I am not alone.

I, and many others, have had and continue to have such experiences.

My own encounters suggest that the majority of the office staff are NOT "only to aware of the ATC Roll"(sic), despite your protestation.

BEX

[sector8dear]

Two trew Bex!:D :D

[Scott Voigt]

Hey Foo......

"Despite providing an excellent service in the most complex and congested airspace in the world, "

Not denegrating the folks at NERC or LATCC... But you must have never been to New York, Dallas/ Fort Worth, Chicago, San Fransico, Atlanta or Los Angels...

regards

[achtung]

I have to agree big time with Mr Bexil, all ACCs are the same! we have a personnel department that is HUGE and we're really not sure what goes on over there any more... but I can tell you they earn more than we do!!.... it must be exhausting those papers!

[ATMWorldLeader]

"Despite providing an excellent service in the most complex and congested airspace in the world, "

Not denegrating the folks at NERC or LATCC... But you must have never been to New York, Dallas/ Fort Worth, Chicago, San Fransico, Atlanta or Los Angels...

Hear hear

We keep going on about our hugely complex and congested airspace when a quick look across to the US will show us that we have lots to learn!

[Warped Factor]

ATM,

We keep going on about our hugely complex and congested airspace when a quick look across to the US will show us that we have lots to learn!

IMHO the only major thing we need to learn from the USA is how they seem to be able to build more runways whenever they need them whereas it takes us forever even to just get to the planning stage.

WF.

[5milesbaby]

Bex. I agree in the main with your posts, it goes down to as little as the canteen staff who don't quite get that ONLY 30 mins to have dinner, then pi$$, and go back really means that. I frequently get annoyed at the prospect of cold/shrivelled food at times which don't really suit an operational shift, and get told its "too expensive" to change the timings. Other things like Sky TV to add to our basic comforts, where are they??? Oh, I forgot, not enough staff heard they had to join a hidiously expensive Social Club to get the priviledge. Sorry, didn't realise the £3000ish from LATCC Club wasn't enough. So many things that need a tweak, so little will ever be done.

Achtung - definately NOT a good idea to bring up pay...... :D :D

[Bigears]

You want Sky TV? Do you still get papers in the restrooms? (British meaning) :eek:

[alloneword]

No Dogs or Pets.

You Take It, You Pay For It.

The past is a foreign country, they do things differently here.

Don't put your feet on the (never been cleaned?) table.

For only £5 joining fee and £1 a month you can use the gym.

"It's your Swanwick" opening ball, only £25 per head - thank's for all that hard work!

No more LCE money for you! - oops, sorry we made a mistake...

No OJTI payment - oops, sorry we made a mistake...

and yes, no SKY TV, no newspapers, and about 30 soft seats in the building.

but, hey, who cares, it's the largest operational ATC centre in Europe!

[BEXIL160]

As we low caste ATCO souls enter NERC every day we are met with a large electronic display that reminds us that we are:

Now entering the largest operational ATC Centre in Europe

Presumably on the control panel for it there is a drop down menu that allows the word NON- to be inserted when NAS FLOPS again?:o

As for newspapers in the restrooms errr.. NO, not that I've found. Of course there was a time when newspaper would be threaded on a string and hung up in the "restroom" (US sense of the word) but the they weren't for reading........ At least not by the operational staff.

:D :D :D

rgds BEX

[Loki]

You can get newspapers at the "dome" only you have to pay for them. For some reason, you can`t buy "The Independent". "We are not a newsagents" I was told when I asked why not.

Customer facing? B*ll*cks.

[Captain Mayday]

NATS 'teamwork' survey = £70000
5x48in flat screen monitors=£40000 ?

Saving by scrapping newspapers@ScACC = £1000pa

= thanks folks, we really value you and your rest periods as part of the team:rolleyes:

Christ, I could have saved NATS £69k there if only they'd asked

PS Teletext is now the most reliable source for finding out what's happening in the company.....until they save another £109 by scrapping the TV.

Thought for the day, what will they call the TV room when they sell the TV ?;)

[terrain safe]

Probably the same as down south:- The room is now called the ORO:D :D :D :D

[eyeinthesky]

If you want any further proof that there are 'two NERCs' in operation you only have to look at the graphs of the results of the customer satisfaction survey which are posted all over the building at present.

All the various issues are identified and given a satisfaction rating percentage and a relevant importance percentage (e.g. you might think clean toilets are 95 % important but you might only be 50% satisfied). Funnily enough the graph shows all these issues with their results split into two halves: 'Swanwick Staff' (sic) and 'ATC'. And guess what, all the things which are important to a 24-hr unit such as catering and rest facilities score highly for the Office Staff and low for the ATC staff. Probably because they are geared to the neat 9-5 building which everyone thought we would spoil when we arrived!!

Now we are getting fold down beds, but they are all in unlockable public rooms (some of them with 2 beds) which are unavailable after 0700 and you are prone to being woken up by cleaners barging in at any time of the night (as I was at 0430). So much for ensuring ATC staff are able to get sufficient rest. Selby should be a warning to everyone.:eek:

[sony backhander]

be fair,they were on the comfy chairs first! i believe swipe cards on the restroom doors are being considered so the posh paper(US sense) doesn't get used on atcos.....

[Dungeon dweller]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Just a few points to add into the forum from one who has alledgedly been around the aforesaid place for a while.

With the exception of the Engineers and some of the more senior support staff most of the "Support Staff" have been locally recruited by NATS or many and various Sub Contractors. They have been indoctrinated over the years by NATS Senior Management on site (Many of whom used to hold an ATCO Licence!!) with many of the following ideas before 'O' Date:

"Once ATC get here then you won't be allowed to use the Gym, Ready Room, Recreation Room, etc..."

"You lot will have to Park and Ride so that ATC can park"

.... and many many more daft ideas....

With that lot in their heads they started out resentful. This is totally wrong in my opinion.

Most of the troops are proud to have put this thing into service and want to support the guys that do the revenue earning bit in the ops room. That's certainly how I feel.

If you want to point fingers, I would start with Quality Street on the 4th floor along with the hangers on on the rest of the 4th floor. The troops are primarily mis lead...

Rant Over!

DD:p :p :p

[kc]

It is the same in Maastricht, has been for the last 20 years and is getting worse.