Lion air P2F terms to change 2013

[cirrus_]

I have a rumour from a fairly reliable source at Lion air that the T & C's are changing for 2013.

current T&C is 44k including base training for 500 hours + 4 year contract
2,200 US per month plus share apartment

new T&C is 55k excluding base check for 500 hours + 5 year contract
pay 1,000 US per month including share apartment

the price of training has gone up due to demand and the T&C's have got worse for the EXACT same reason as they know they can get away with it!!:ugh:

[truckflyer]

I don't know exactly about this, but I do know of LOADS of Indian pilots getting into blood contracts with local agencies, paying 50.000 Euros for TR and job placement with Lion Air, for TC's that are pretty bad!

Specially considering that as an FO, you will be treated as a puppet by the company!
They pretend you are flying, but actually they are allowing you to push the buttons they give you permission to push!

Pay peanuts, get monkeys comes to mind! :D

[cefey]

People should loose they licenses for doing such a thing!
Are you stupid enough to pay such money for work - you are too stupid to be a pilot!

[cirrus_]

Only a matter of time before a nil salary is introduced, lion air will become the most profitable airline in the world by 2020

[goaround737]

As childish as it may sound, I struggle to think of anything more constructive to say than “Ha-ha!”

[AlexanderH]

Rumours or is there any truth to this?

This is pprune after all so it is difficult to take anything seriously on here.

[falconetti]

Lion is for REALLY panicking "pilots to be" !

Are you informed about what is actually going on in Indo ?
Do you have any idea wether you will be able to stay in Jakarta for more than a few years?
Nevermind the economics...(well, terrible stuff), are you willing to sitt two feet from a captain smoking constantly ? YES, they smoke in the cockpit !
I know more than a few p2f "pilots" with Lion, they all hate it !!!!!
So,..before you spend all your parents money, please rethink the whole deal.
I've been to Jakarta....it sucks big time(if you are from the west).
We are all better off working in a supermarket as ..whatever.

[FlyingStone]

are you willing to sitt two feet from a captain smoking constantly ? YES, they smoke in the cockpit !

And you think there is no smoking going on in European airlines? Whether it's legal or not, some people do smoke in cockpit - even in Europe.

[flyingdog]

This Lion Air people are loosers ... it is still too cheap, I would ask you for twice as much money + I would ask you to kill your parents ... and you would still think about it ...you're desperate and pathetic :yuk:

[cirrus_]

Indonesia has become the pilot Jail of the world - all people who suck at flying go there and never come out and rightly so:D

[DJRA]

Cirrus are you a pilot? (I didn't asked you if you have a licence..)

Do you thing what you said is fair for who is flying out there 110h a mount, in hot days, in bad weather operation, landing a 739 in short runways?

People from pprune must start show some respect, because being a pilot isn't just have a licence in the wallet to show-off..

And if you think i'm a Lion Air pilot, you are wrong.

[AlexanderH]

Can we have that in English please?

[truckflyer]

DJRA -
How can the WHORES of the industry be showed respect?

They are not working, they are paying to sit in a jet, what respect to they deserve?
That they can fly an airplane? or that they are actually paying somebody to be allowed to do it, because if not they can not get a job!

[cirrus_]

DJRA you want to know what a pilot is? a pilot is someone who works 2 jobs to put themselfs through flight school, someone who studys hard and wants to learn everything there is to know about flying. someone who has respect for the industry and is prepared to move up at a steady rate, progressing and learning through instructing, turbo prop or small RPT operaitions, and then when the time is right and they have 3 or 4 years real flying experince the oppertunity to start flying a jet within an airline, thats a pilot.

these people whom just make it through there CPL's and then pay $$$$$ to Lion air are not pilots, they are the wannabees of the industry and are a danger to the general public and the 220 odd seats/lives there are on the 900's!

when nothing goes wrong most pilots could fly the 73 without incident, but what about when things go bad?? thats when we see the great divide between wannabees & airline pilots :D

Thankyou & Goodnight :D

[PilotWA123]

I totally agreed what Cirrus said.. Sorry for those 200 plus hours CPL you are ashamed for aviation industry..

[DJRA]

Cirrus, i don't know if you were in the aviation business back in 2000 - 2005, i flew with a lot of 200h right seated pilots in 180 pax jetliner. And believe me, a big percentage of them were great pilots, great workers and above all, great persons!

Back in that time pilots with 200h and 21 years old were finishing the CPL and already doing interviews for big national companies.
Now things are not so great for wannabes, but that's life, always was and always will be.

Some of PPRuners just cant respect who is doing what they cant or didn't had the opportunity to do.
"Paying to have an easy start it is not correct" I totally agree with that!
I also didn't paid for one, there was nothing on that time to pay for, there was no self sponsored TR or Line Training's, now they exist, maybe the price for becoming a pilot might be increasing.

Aviation is money, money is aviation. That's the reality, CPL may cost you 60k, a lot of people had the dream to become a pilot and they cant because they don't own the money. It's sad. But i believe you don't see these people facing pilots calling them sweat adjectives..
We cant call those guys out there or any other pilots those adjectives, because THAT is more disrespectful for our profession than paying a really expensive formation!

They are not drinking mojitos out there, remember that. They are also working, maybe more than anyone in here, and they have the same TR than any other experienced FO, so they must know how to cope with emergency's.


I'm not protecting Lion Air pilots! What i'm trying to do is asking you people some more respect! This is a public chat.

Safe Landings.

[M-ONGO]

DJRA you want to know what a pilot is? a pilot is someone who works 2 jobs to put themselfs through flight school, someone who studys hard and wants to learn everything there is to know about flying. someone who has respect for the industry and is prepared to move up at a steady rate,

Cirrus

You should take heed of you're own advice. You started another thread about P2F saying how you were a 777 pilot who had paid a certain low reputation Indo carrier for a 73NG T/R and line hours. You later deleted the thread after a reply along the lines of "if you were a real pilot with a 777 rating, why the hell would you whore yourself out to a 73 operator on a P2F scheme?"

Enough said.

Threads like this show you as a wannabe.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/495442-tsa-approval.html#post7412181

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/495704-failed-atpl-exams.html#post7430054

cirrus_

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 26
The 14 ATPL subjects in the UK are renowned to be a real bitch, and this was even agreed by a Check and training captain I spoke to at Cathay.

a couple of options for you, FAA ATP is just 1 exam, or CASA is 7 so if you fancy a bit of travel and are prepared to obtain the nessasary visas this would cut down the volume a bit.

on the more negative side, when you get to TR, interviews etc the amount of paperwork and knowledge requried is massive compared to ATPL subjects.

I have a TR on the 777 and am currently in the process of doing the 737NG and there must be something like 50,000 pages to read, its endless!!

however my passion gets me through, find passion in this and it will never be hard again

Good luck

Oh and this old chestnut

cirrus_

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 26
ah good luck to all those who go for this, I self funded a TR to go on this with Falcon, but failed the sim assesment, and there are no second chances.

if your not up to scratch they take no pitty on you, nor do they care about the money you have spent to get this far.

they really do put you through your paces in the sim, be prepared.

despite what you read on here, Lion do have very high standards and its not a job you can just walk in to.


truckflyer

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere close to me
Age: 44
Posts: 409
DJRA -
How can the WHORES of the industry be showed respect?

They are not working, they are paying to sit in a jet, what respect to they deserve?
That they can fly an airplane? or that they are actually paying somebody to be allowed to do it, because if not they can not get a job!


Couldn't agree more Truck.

Standing by for you to delete this thread...

[cowhorse]

Well, my great grandpa was a bus driver, one of the first bus drivers in Sicily. And he was heralded as a hero by the community, as he was negotiating 'dangerous mountain roads of inland Sicily', 'full of road bandits', 'falling rocks' etc. He was paid quite a nice salary, and you can be sure of the fact, that many children wanted to drive a bus for a living in the 40's.

Driving bus in Sicily is still quite dangerous today - traffic is horrible, roads are awful, you are responsible for the lives of your passengers, you have to get up at 3:00 am, and accidents do happen: 15 people died in Catania 20 years ago when a bus plummeted down a cliff, 7 people died and 40 were injured in a similar crash about 10 years ago in Enna. But the job of a bus driver has become just that: a job. Gone are the bandits with luparas, falling rocks, twisty mountain roads etc.

So, the sooner you get a grip on reality, the better. And remember, ancient Romans were wrong - there is only one virtue in this world: profit maximisation.

[Callsign Kilo]

Is this place not the place where people go when they have failed every flight test about 3 or 4 times, failed every interview they've ever had, cocked up every sim assessment etc etc. Is it for people with loads of money and not a lot of sense? It seems to have that reputation amongst my peers.

[howflytrg]

Having had a good catch up beer with an airline (uk) recruiter friend oh mine, both he and I were intrigued. As the aforementioned airline is EU blacklisted, the hours logged are not accounted when applying to her bunch. She reliably tells me the same case at her previous outfit where she also conducted recruitment. Apparently, whilst it is a requirement to log the hours, the UK airlines ignore the existence of them as the insurance companies consider the experience null and void. In their eyes if an insurer will not touch you if you cock up, why employ them based on that experience.

So all in all it would appear to be a total waste of money, time, effort and luck from the bag you hope isn't emptied before the experience bag is full.

Of course it probably is not the case for all uk/eu airlines, it seems it depends who underwrites the assests of the company you hope to work for one day.

Worth considering perhaps.

[training wheels]

new T&C is 55k excluding base check for 500 hours + 5 year contract
pay 1,000 US per month including share apartment

When I first saw this, I thought that's the amount they pay you, the pilot and thought, hey that's not bad pay for an Indonesian airline. But now I realize that's how much you pay them to fly for their airline!! What a :mad: joke!!

No wonder Lion Air undercuts Garuda by almost 50% in their ticket prices because they can afford to since the pay to fly F/O is making up for the short fall in revenue. This is a real disgrace to the industry.

And you then earn $1000 USD a month as your salary once checked to line? That's 9.6 million rp. Even some of the senior flight attendants in the major airlines in Indonesia earn more than that. What a joke!

[VNAVPTH]

The revenue management/commercial department in this airline are laughing at pilots signing up to this. You may as well walk around with TW&T written across your forehead. But if daddy owns an oil well and needs to offset profits against tax...............well...........

[cefey]

There will always be pilots he is willing to fly like that. And of course, companies who will use that scheme.
The worst part (out of my experience), thats guys with rich parents (nothing wrong with that! but), who pay for their whole education, type, LT and so on. The real problem is that they dont even bother to study. They dont know anything of what they SHOULD know!
They do memorize for the exam (questions/answers) and thats it. Our instructor did construct his own test (changed numbers in questions) and all those guys got 15-30%!! Etc - pure guessing! All the questions!!

And its up to rest of the pilots to take it into their hands. If "good" pilots "deny" to fly with those guys - no companies will hire them. Its a matter of 2-3 years before NO ONE will take such a line training, because you guaranteed NOT to get a job after you done.
After all, OUR life depends on that too! Do you want a co-pilot who dont know NOTHING? What if you get ill and he have to land airplane by him self? Do you trust you life to him? Life of all the passengers?

We can not blame industry and expect it to change. We have to do it our self.
Create some kind of International Pilot Union, that will stand against those guys. I know it sound hard or maybe even "stupid and unrealistic", but for me it seems like the only way industry can get back where it was once upon a time.

[B200Drvr]

The best way to rid this industry of this scourge, is to introduce the 1500 hour airline rule, simply put, no pilot may occupy a seat on a registered airline without at least 1500 hours and an ATP. By the time all these wannebe's get 1500 hours they will not want to pay anybody anything, it will also weed out the real pilots from the dreamers, as they will have to go and instruct or fly humanitarian relief etc for a few years!!

[cefey]

I think it will move this corruption only lower down the system.
If everyone will start looking for instructor jobs, only those who is paying under the table to CGI will get that job. And who will that be? Parents-sponsored guys, that dont know nothing them self at all.
And few of the smartest kids in the class. But what should rest of the guys do? Not the top-notch, but still good, hard-working students?

And do you want YOUR instructor to have close to 0 knowledge? Well, that exactly what will happen at schools!

[turbine100]

If everyone stopped buying ratings / line training. Perhaps this stuff would stop and Lion Air would have to recruit properly.

[gonzags]

Please note our program based in Asia consisting of 500 hours of line training as a B737 NG first officer followed by a 4 year employment contract and whose details were previously emailed to you for information is placed on an indefinite standby status effective January 1, 2013 by our contracted partner airline due to its lack of line training capacity for foreign first officers for the near future which is due to the following:
A high number of local cadets hired by our contracted partner airline with long term bond commitment need to receive line training before starting long term employment with the airline.
Our contracted partner airline has taken over a foreign airline where authorities do not authorize foreign first officers to operate. Local cadets of this foreign airline need to be line trained by our contracted partner airline at its home base before returning to their airline in their home country in Asia.
The scheduled delivery of aircraft to this foreign airline for the years to come with its subsequent local cadet FO line training requirements combined with the scheduled line training of local cadets by our contracted partner airline leaves no room to this contracted partner airline to provide line training to foreign pilots for the near future.

Eagle Jet International is contracted with several B737 partner airlines. As soon as our other partner airlines have provided Eagle Jet with the 2013 program details (schedule, price, etc), corresponding information page will be emailed to you but the next B737 line training class will not take place before February or March at the earliest. There is no need to reply to this email unless you do not wish to receive B737 program updated information once available.

[PosClimb]

Europe is in a serious recessions... so pilot jobs are scarce. The notion that requiring 1500 hours will change anything is a farce.

It'll just mean that you have 1000's of unemployed pilots competing for very few instructor slots. And most humanitarian flying requires a lot of experience usually.

And now, as expected, some bottom feeding Asian airlines are filling their FO slots with locals. It was bound to happen sooner or later.

Once the locals have enough experienced Captains, then it will be bye-bye expat Captains all around Asia as well...


I don't know who will hurt more... the guys losing their jobs?

Or poor Bing-Bing from the Pink P*ssy Parlor in Bangkok who will see her largest customer base (but poorest tippers) dry up...

We live in interesting times...