Upcoming BBC doc on Jets and the Cold War - help needed!

[tmoriarty]

Hi all - I posted this in the The Aviation History and Nostalgia thread but have been advised that it might get a bit more attention here....



I've got a favour to ask the PPRuNe forums.

I'm a researcher at the BBC and I'm working on a two part documentary about jets and their role in the Cold War for BBC2. I've done quite a bit of research on the topic and we're in the early stages of working out what to include - there's some fantastic stuff about the RB-45s and the U2s spying on the USSR in the '50s, and the contribution jets made to the West's deterrent, on both sides of the Atlantic - but the problem with all television is finding things to film!

My producers have asked me to put feelers out to get an idea of what's out there in terms of planes, places and people that we could get on screen, in the UK, USA and Russia. I've done a lot of digging into this but there's only so much google can tell you! I'd be really grateful if anyone has any tips for potential contributors, be they pilots/crew who flew the planes, experts in the field or enthusiasts, or any suggestions for some well preserved CW-era airfields, bunkers or bases. And if there are any great stories that show just how vital jet planes were in defining how the Cold War was fought that you think we should cover in the show, I'd love to hear them!


Post here, PM or:
[email protected]
07971 723731

[Rector16]

Tom

That's a big subject - it could run and run.

I'm sure that those older and bolder than me will have plenty of suggestions, but I come from the Tornado GR force so I'll limit myself to issues connected with them.

Of course the Tornado is still flying on Ops (from Kandahar) but it started 30 years ago, so it qualifies as a Cold War jet and we were nuclear-armed in addition to all the otehr hardware in those days - you could speak to that force to get some tales. Start with the Tornado Force Commander at Marham - he can connect you with the Cold War veterans who are still flying (there are plenty).

In terms of locations - I'd suggest RAF Bruggen for a visit. It's still a military base, but not for the RAF. It's an Army Unit called Javelin Barracks (I think), but I know that it is near Elmpt in Germany, very close to the NL border. It was a Cold War base long before the Tornadoes arrived (Jaguars prior to that). The other option in the area is the old RAF Laarbruch another Tornado base in the 80s/90s (Buccs prior). It's now a Ryanair hub for Dusseldorf, but last time I visited the military base was still there - it just had a brand new glass/steel terminal in the middle.

I look forward to the programme - good luck!

[NutLoose]

Yep, Bruggen still has all the Hardened Shelters in place, I would also suggest you ask on here

Historic Aviation - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4)

and at Bruntingthorpe as they have the Lightning QRA sheds and do scrambles from them with live Lightnings, they also have Buccaneers, Nimrod, Hunter, Canberra etc that also do high speed runs down the runway, they also have an Iskra which is a russian jet.... the above link will get you in contact with those that can help.

[Saintsman]

If it's a two parter, keep it balanced. The Russians had quite an array of aircraft that most people don't know a great deal about. It would certainly be interesting to know how good they were and particularly how servicable they were. Did the Russians have lots because they needed them or because they could?

[Roland Pulfrew]

If its a ll about the Cold War, don't forget to include the role of the Nimrod. 40+ years of service, much of it during the Cold War (and Cod Wars) doing exactly what it was supposed to do had the cold war had turned hot. Much of the infrastructure at RAF Kinloss and RAF St Mawgan still exists and there are a number of museums with intact Nimrod airframes. It would be nice to see something that recognised the Cold War contribution rather than labouring on the one incident in Afghanistan.

Edited to add:

ISTR a programme I think done by the BBC (was it the Horizon programme) called The Deep Cold War (if I remember correctly) which would also be a good starting point.

[Pontius Navigator]

You might try and search the archives for footage from I serve the Soviet Union which was a regular TV broadcast (weekly or monthly) which was both propaganda for the masses and feel good for the troops. If you Google that title you will get several hits.

It was not all perfect either. I recall a low level drop by a TU16 Badger that dropped 4 retards HE bombs. Three retarded and one didn't.

The broadcast was receivable in the UK so the BBC, Caversham?, might have copies. You might also try MOD as they were assiduous watchers too :)

[CoffmanStarter]

Good to see the BBC are seeking the help of those that know ... well done Tom ... looking forward to the programme airing :D

[MAINJAFAD]

Tom

If your doing the Air Defence of GB during the Cold War, The Radar Museum at Neatishead is a must as they have the Ops room that controlled the southern QRA from 1973 to 93 in the condition it was left when the system it used was replaced in the early 90's (along with the last remaining large ground based radar from the cold War used to control the jets). Plus the BBC do have footage of the place in use, as BBC East did an hour long programme about the place in the mid 1980's, that also covered the Phantoms at Wattisham and the long gone SAM defences that backed the jets up.

[lj101]

Tom

These guys are from that era and may be of interest to you.

Aircrew Details (http://www.hunterteam.com/pilot_details.htm)


Cliff Spink in particular is a really good bloke and was OC 74 Sqn (F4J) circa 1988.

Good luck.

[Tankertrashnav]

Lots of good stuff here - try the "Interesting Articles" link

V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/index.html)

BBC4 filmed at the Newark reunion in April for their programme The Golden Age of Flying, and BBC Leeds also filmed for an item on the Cuban Missile Crisis on the Inside Out programme. Might be worth contacting the respective producers of these programmes, and Newark Air Museum themselves are extremely helpful.

[Geehovah]

Happy to help if the F4 is of interest, Plenty of original pictures from the era:

The Phantom in Focus (http://issuu.com/fonthillmedia/docs/phantom_in_focus_fonthill_media)

I can offer a number of links from BBC archives

[Green Flash]

Tom

I can but echo lj101's words re Cliff Spink - top bloke:ok:

And you've allready seen him on TV! He was teaching Colin McGregor (Euans big brother) to fly the Tiger, then Havard and finally the 2-seat Spit.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Can well remember QRA in Valiants at Marham, loaded with 2 US weapons, at cockpit readiness listening to the Bomber Controller on telescramble whist Soviet aircraft were being tracked coming down the North Sea. Usually with pyjamas under flying suit and always seemed to be in the wee small hours. The cold war might have been cold but it certainly was for real !

Just wished I had been sharper at Swinderby and gone to Hunters flying somewhere warm !

On a funnier note, well remember being in the QRA Pen listening to the BBC radio when some pompous left wing lady asked just what sort of a man could even think of dropping a nuclear weapon on Soviet city xxxx. Well, just happened our target was xxxx. Security prevented me from responding, she could have spoken to 5!!!

[BEagle]

Tom, have a word with the BBC4 / BBC Leeds team who filmed us at Newark. Also, the Newark Air Museum has some very rare aircraft from the era in question!

As lj101 says, Cliff is indeed a top bloke and could give you some interesting tales. As also could Nigel Walpole, well-known aviation author with some ex-East German Air Force contacts.

If you want some Vulcan shots, let me know - also if you wish to chat with an eminent V-force historian and author.

Drop me a PM if you wish to know the part Sam Fox's parts played in perestroika with Tu-95 / Tu-142 crews.....;)

[Twin Rotor Fun]

Tom, if you search for a book by Nigel Walpole called 'Thinking the Unthinkable' you may find that some of your research has already been done for you.

[MMHendrie1]

Tom,

Have a look at www.wingedwarriors.co.uk (http://www.wingedwarriors.co.uk)

It includes photographs taken during the 1970s from Recce Canberras on NATO's southern flank and others of RAF Germany Strike/Attack Tornado GR1 aircraft from Laarbruch and Bruggen both of which were key RAF strike bases at the height of the Cold War. The website includes stories too, all from the era on which you are focused and it could point you to places well worth visiting.

There are lots of untold stories out there and very many cold war warriors who will be interested in what you are doing.

The very best of luck.

[Finningley Boy]

Tom,

My own book, due out soon, Fading Eagle, might provide some useful information covering the R.A.F. during the Cold War period, particularly the political arguments.:E

FB:)

[4Greens]

Just a change of scene. RN carriers with Scimitars and later Buccaneers were organised for 'tactical nuclear' weapons delivery. Check out the FAA Museum Yeovilton.

[Evalu8ter]

When organising a staff ride last year I got in touch with the people who now look after Upper Heyford airfield, Heyford Business Park. Through some very helpful people I was able to get access to the old WOC; it is remarkably well preserved with the last tail no / crew / wpn allocation tote boards all still marked up. Overlooking the 'pit' is the Nuclear release room; quite chilling really - you can even recreate Crimson Tide by flashing the 'EAM' sign on/off and pick up the 'red phone' to NORAD (no, it's not connected...). They also have access to the old Nuclear QRA HAS site..it's a real time capsule.

PM if you want any extra detail.

[teeteringhead]

Have posted a response on the AH&N forum.

[NutLoose]

Also see

BBC after help with a documentary - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=120990)

[5aday]

The Cold War ? It's a massive project and if the truth be known it was just about every aeroplane and missile (including IRBMs) in the R.A.F. whether involved directly or indirectly. This even includes MPA S.A.R. missions such as the loss of the trawler Gaul around the North Cape.

[PTR 175]

Another area to look at is the survival infrastructure such as ROC Reporting posts, a few are preserved. Regional seats of government, such as the amusingly named Essex secret Bunker. Then there was the MOS buffer stocks of food etc. Not forgetting Burlington.

Across the pond there is all the Minuteman sites which are shown on Benchmark maps, which causes me much mirth. NORAD in Colorado and its roles including the Santa tracker.

[Pontius Navigator]

The survival fly-off could be another programme on its own. SRMP - Varsities allocated North Sea search boxes. Lame Duck V-bombers with safe haven in the Irish Sea - on top of StrkFltlant :) Fighters simply flying out north east etc

[earswentpop]

Tom,

A fleet used to vacate Main Operating Bases and would deploy off-piste at a certain readiness state. The thinking was the MOBs were static, easy to find and would have been severely twatted shortly after kick-off. Deployed locations would often be only 30 or 40 miles from the Forward Edge of the Battle Area (FEBA) (cue sniping comments from those sans flaps on their boots) to ensure a very high sortie rate to support the pongos.

Deployment sites included options, such as bulldozing the contents of supermarkets rearwards (having secured alcohol & porn, obviously) to make hangar space and going up tiddly up up (and down) from the car park.

Aircraft were also deployed in the extensive forests, taking off from grass, tin strips, 'C'-class roads or autobahns. Even though one ate and slept there, it was, frankly, difficult to find your 75ft-square tin landing pad, in the average weather, from an IP to target run which started at ~450kn and ended at 0kn. We were reasonably sure the average Ruski on his first away match would have had a devil of a job to see anything of these sites.

Other contributors on these forums were better informed of the more closely-guarded plans. You could try a PM to noprobsbob.

Good luck.

[ORAC]

Subterranea Britannica (http://www.subbrit.org.uk)

Their "about us" page has links for similar organisations across Europe.

The Radar Pages (http://www.radarpages.co.uk)

Linesman/Mediator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linesman/Mediator) Rotor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROTOR)

SAGE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Automatic_Ground_Environment)

East German System

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/jvoc/GDR.jpg

[tmoriarty]

This is all great stuff chaps, thanks very much for your help. Some really great stuff - keep it coming, and I'll get back to people asap. Have tried to post on the Aviation Network forum but my account isn't being verified for some reason....so thanks for reposting it, I'll get on it as soon as they'll let me!

[noprobs]

Other contributors on these forums were better informed of the more closely-guarded plans. You could try a PM to noprobsbob.

I've already sent an email. :hmm:

[Geehovah]

An interesting chart ORAC. I wish I could chat with a couple of those guys in the border posts in GDR after an incident I related in my book. It's been interesting to see discussions of Falklands engagements but we don't get the same chance with Cold War encounters.

[Agatha]

Agree with MAINJAFAD - the Air Defence Radar Museum to the north east of Norwich is a must - it hosts much of the history of ground-based air defence of the UK during the Cold War as well as some of the equipment from that era including the Operations Room (exactly as we left it when we moved back into the bunker in the early 90s), a bloodhound missile system and equipment used at the Ballistic Missile Early Warning System site at RAF Fylingdales.
Your POC is:
Chris Morshead
Museum Manager and Curator
RAF Air Defence Radar Museum
Neatishead
Norwich
Norfolk
NR12 8YB
[email protected]
Index Page (http://www.radarmuseum.co.uk)
Tel: 01692-631485

The Association of RAF Fighter Control Officers could also assist with identifying key personalities from the Cold War era and putting you in contact with the controllers/master controllers/sector controllers etc who commanded and controlled the airborne QRA(I) and supporting aircraft during interceptions of Soviet Union bomber and recce aircraft approaching the UK. They can also assist with identifying Mission Crew from the BMEWS site at RAF Fylingdales. Send a PM if you need contact details for the Association.

[brokenlink]

Tom,
The Essex "Secret" Bunker is at Kelveden Hatch only a few miles from North Weald Airfield. You might also like to try Harrington and North Luffenham, both ex nuclear missile sites and recently listed by English heritage for some of their CW buildings and structures. North Luffenham is still an active MoD base though.
Good luck.

[LesleyP]

Tom - both my husbands (1 and 2!) and I were doing 'stuff' during the Cold War - me in Air Traffic at Leuchars, first husband flying bombed-up Valiants low level over Scotland then Victors, and second husband engineer/armourer also at Leuchars, then in the forests in Germany with Harriers.

[aw ditor]

It wasn't only Jets' in the Cold War, try contacting the Shackleton Association. I spos'e you could count a Mk 3 Phase 3 as a semi-jet.

[Shackman]

Curses aw ditor - beat me to it! It wasn't only jets in the cold war, and we did have our own nukes in Maritime guise, and in AEW form the Shack 'soldiered' on 'til virtually the end of the cold war as the only 4 engined fighter (well we were in 11 Group!!)

[P6 Driver]

It's both a big and very interesting subject, so good luck with the project!

From a personal point of view, put a word in for me for the producers not to;

1. Use "jumpy" or fast zoom & out of focus camera shots.

2. Keep repeating the same segments of film at random as if they've run out of ideas.

Just a thought...
:ok:

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Good luck with this, but keep it factual and politics out of it.

1 clip that is a MUST (to illustrate tactics to be used) is the ZSU-23 sight film (and soundtrack!) of the Buccaneers low-level at Red Flag. EVERYONE wants to see that again and the Beeb must have that in the archives somewhere.

I think it was the Beeb that did 'cuts' to the IAF shed at Leuchars during their New Years' Eve/Day programming in 1976 or 7 during which a 'live' scramble was conducted. Always thought it might have been 'fixed' (too much of a coincidence!) but given the regularity of intrusions in that timeframe, it may well not have been! Ivan was always keen to disrupt PH 'standowns'.

To Airpolice below: Yep, '77 that's a higher probability

[airpolice]

I think that would have been at the end of 77 as I had taken my girlfriend to visit Leuchars Ops that summer. (Romantic or what?) During the visit we had a live qra scramble, so she got to choose the callsigns for the aircraft being launched.

At new year when the tv show was on, showing the ops guy selecting callsigns and telling the crews to go, she was telling her family that she'd been there and done that.

[NutLoose]

Heads up guys,

The Programme is slated to be shown at 9pm on Friday 8th November 2013, BBC 2.




BBC2 Cold War: Hot Jets (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?127226-BBC2-Cold-War-Hot-Jets)