downshifting

[hot ngukurr nights]

G'day all,

Just putting a thought out there to see if anyone has been through a similar situation before and has done something about it. Before I start, I want to say that this is far from a whinge, it is a genuine call for help from others as I feel my current position can't be maintained, despite the fact I feel incredibly fortunate to be here.

I have been flying for the last ten or so years, and have followed the normal rungs up the ladder and ticked the boxes that needed to be ticked. 12 months ago, I finally cracked the airlines and have been flying around the big brown land in a nice shiny jet since.

I started flying to eventually work for an airline, loved GA (even in the NT!) but always worked towards the jet. Now I'm here and I feel like there's no place I'd rather be less. The airlines don't suit me, I enjoy the actual flying of the jet but not the other 99% of rubbish you have to put up with to be there.

At this stage, I am longing to be back in GA or somewhere outside the airlines. I have for the first time in quite a while, thought about updating my CV and looking around. I don't want to make any silly decisions though as I am somewhere where so many people want to be and don't want to blow it.

I'm sure there are others out there who have experienced this, what have you done? Is it worth sticking around for things to improve? I just feel like maybe I haven't given it enough of a chance, I am well aware a year is not a very long time. Maybe it'll get better, maybe not.

A couple of notes before the judge, jury and executioner move in for the cross examination and sentencing. I am not gen Y, I worked in other areas before flying, I payed for every cent of my training, I respect my colleagues greatly and I deeply value my job and how lucky I am to be here. The simple fact is I'm not happy. I feel like I'm flying around with my hands tied behind my back as the decision making process has been removed from the cockpit and placed into a manager's briefcase sitting in the window of a small office near the brekky creek.

Be careful what you wish for I guess.



Hooroo

[mince]

I completely agree with you mate.

But for me, it comes down to money. As much as we love flying, we also need enough coin to have a decent lifestyle.

And that's why I am going to stick with the jet.

[FullySickBro]

Agree with Mince, it's money and lifestyle.

Turboprops was possibly the most fun had flying but jet salary allows for a life outside aviation and I enjoy that too!

[Falling Leaf]

The airlines don't suit me, I enjoy the actual flying of the jet but not the other 99% of rubbish you have to put up with to be there.

My concern with going to the airlines is that 99% of the time the jet is flying itself!

[Xeptu]

I know exactly where you're coming from having been where you are myself.

In my experience I love aviation (35 years), but didnt enjoy the airlines all that much, it is the reason I finally pulled the pin and had been feeling that way for quite a few years. My most enjoyable time was in the northern territory in GA, flying kingairs. Since then most of my experience is airlines.

The airline culture today is not what it was 20 years ago, I put that down to the rapid growth over the last decade or so, the 89 event and more recently the 911 event.

My advice to you is keep doing what you are doing at least for the next couple of years, holding a command makes life a little more bearable but you're not going to all of a sudden love it.

One thing you must understand, if and when you decide to take action and quit the airlines, there's no going back, so be damn sure that's what you want and GA won't be what you remember it to be, as you age your perspective and tolerance changes, it's unlikely you'll be any happier in GA either.

You can PM me if you wish, if you need someone to bounce this stuff off, try to keep your collegues, particularly the ones you work with, unaware of your true thoughts and feelings, they can't help and are more likely to make it worse for you.

[FullySickBro]

If it has only been a year then perhaps stick it out a little longer? As Xeptu mentioned it may be hard to re-establish a position in the airlines down the track if you have a change of heart. Kids, schools, mortgages are themes I hear that change priorities away from flying quite readily and it would be a shame if you already burnt your bridges..

A couple of colleagues of mine fly lighties every now and then to get the buzz back and one even maintain a command instrument rating on a turboprop. Also leave without pay does present itself occasionally.. Good luck!

[Captain Nomad]

If you can hack the shift work, have you considered RFDS? Not for everyone but still probably one of the best employment options outside of the airlines.

[Mach E Avelli]

Xeptu's advice is good. Hang in there until you get your command. Give it a couple of years beyond that. If it still sucks, plan to get out then, but bide your time and maybe pick up a corporate jet job instead of going back to bugsmashers. Which neither pay well nor are all that satisfying to fly after the good gear.
If you do not do this, in later life you may have regrets. Because it really is a one way ticket once you quit airlines and go back to G .A. Also, G.A. is not the freewheeling industry it once was. All the peripheral bull**** from high vis vests to dealing daily with the security goons is there, as well.
This, from someone who is now a 'has been' but better a has-been than a 'never was'.

[B58]

Some pilots work their whole careers to get in the front of a nice shiny jet only to be dissapointed in the job once they finally get there. For others, the dream is realised and is or will be the best job they have ever had.

I guess everybody is different and what they want out of an aviation career can differ greatly as well.

I think I knew fairly early in my career that I didnt want the particular lifestyle that is afforded the airline pilot. Although I will never earn the same dosh as an airline captain, I have a young family and prefer to spend more time at home rather than flying all over the country spending nights in hotels. (remember I'm not having a go at anyone this is just my choice).

HNN you sound like someone that may well be suited to working in GA rather than the airlines although I guess every job will have its downsides. For me the RFDS was the perfect way to have an enjoyable job, lifestyle and earn decent money. Its not for everyone but then again as I said above neither is the airlines. Right now my job allows me to work 3-4 shifts per week (12 hour shifts) followed by 4 or sometimes 5 days off depending on the roster, up to 650 hrs per year max and earn well over the 100K mark flying a turbo prop around the bush as well as up and down the east coast.

I guess what I'm getting at personally is that money is not everything but lifestyle plays a big part in happiness when it comes to career and especially family. Except the one night a week that i'm on night shift, I am home every night with my kids which is pretty important to me.

Anyway thats my 2 cents woth if any of it makes sense to you. I definately think you should consider a change if your not happy with your current career path.

Cheers

[Jabawocky]

RFDS or similar

[compressor stall]

There are companies flying jets that have the variety of random charter to keep it mixed up a bit.

[pull-up-terrain]

Im not a pilot (but a LAME) but flying one of those 717's or F100's around Western Australia looks quite a fun gig. Looks more fun than flying an A320 for jetstar.

[waren9]

hot nights

the danger with staying for a command is that, it is an unknown number of years away (6+?), and 1 or 2 years after that to see, you very quickly adapt to the income. try going back after that.

there is more to life than chasing promotion and flying planes for an indifferent employer. some don't ever realise that, you realised it pretty soon.

the bigger they get, the less like flying it becomes. i wish i stayed on turbo props.

if you're seriously not happy, make a change and don't look back. i dont agree that going back to ga is a one way ticket. save your check history, get a trg capt to write you a ref etc.

[Ultralights]

if your not happy, then that wont likely change until you start doing something that does make you happy.

Its not all about money and lifestyle... in fact, make sure your happy first, then lifestyle will follow.. Money will not make you happy, just read the newspapers every day to figure that one out.

you only get one shot at life so dont waste part of it being unhappy. i was unhappy at QF for many years, the day i left was the best day of my life. if your happy, then everything improves, relationships, friendships, general well being, all far more important than money and lifestyle.

[Mach E Avelli]

Some actress famously said words to the effect of "I have been rich and I have been poor - rich is better".
Most flying short of maybe combat eventually becomes routine and then boring.
Where airline pilots often go wrong is they get hooked on the big money, buy the mansion overlooking the harbour, his and hers matching Beemers and a gas guzzling gin palace power boat. Then they get caught shagging some hostie (sorry flight attendant) and the missus takes off with all the goodies and they are stuffed. They can't afford to step off the treadmill.
By maintaining a modest lifestyle (and not getting caught shagging the aforementioned) you can make airline flying work for you.
You have put in the hard yards to get so far, so maybe you need to take the attitude of not what you can do for aviation, but what aviation can do for you.
Later, if you really miss flying, you can buy yourself a bugsmasher and play at it all you like.

[CoodaShooda]

A couple of thoughts from one who turned his back on flying for a career and came to "enjoy" years of regret.

Spend a bit of time standing outside the fence watching the activity at your local major airport. Imagine being no longer a part of it. How do you feel?

If you honestly feel you wouldn't miss it, by all means find something else to do. But make sure it's something that will improve your lot in life and not be a backward step.

Otherwise, start focussing on the positives of what you have rather than the negatives.

Remember there are plenty of people out there working to live and not enjoying their work either. It's not just an aviation thing.

[Centaurus]

You are indeed fortunate to have been offered so much good advice on the subject. Especially heed the wise words of Mac E Avelli. He's been there-done that - and knows what he is talking about.

Sure you are now bored with the button pushing and the ever so pedantic SOP's even to the extent where the company tells what CDU page you should be on at each stage of flight. But for my book it beats flogging around in general aviation clapped out twins, bashing into thunderstorms with defective radar if you have one, and scared to write up defects in the maintenance release lest the operator or the aircraft owner sack you for making waves.

Take the opportunity to hand fly your shiny jet on raw data as much as possible and you will soon rediscover the pleasure of flying. Of course, much depends on the twitch factor of individual captains you fly with - but not all are automation addicts. Just ask them and the enthusiasts will say fill your boots while others cringe in fear at the thought of you disengaging the automatics.

You are bored being the first officer in an airliner. But are you a professional who reads the manuals out of sheer pleasure to increase your knowledge which may save your life one dark night. Or do you just sit pissed off and bored. It happens to us all sometimes.

Australian GA is full of penny pinching operators who stretch the rules on fatigue and aircraft maintenance and have no hesitation in getting rid of you when the work isn't coming in. By your username it is likely you were operating in the NT on charter work. The dust and mossies at night are fine for those who like the heat and eking out a living on dodgy light twins for the rest of your life. But I for one would prefer to be flying at 35,000 ft with beautiful views and regular good pay and a comfortable seat whether left seat or right.

Once a command arrives in 3-6 years, your outlook will change, believe me.
But I know many pilots would envy you your current job in the RH seat of a shiny jet. It must be a difficult decision for you otherwise you would not have posted your very fine post on pprune. My advice? Sit on your hands for a couple more years at least and watch your bank account grow. Then if you are still bored after that period of time you would have sufficient experience to make one of the most critical career decisions of your life. Best of luck, either way:ok:

[Snakecharma]

I may have missed it, but Hot Nights have you actually said what it is you don't like about airline flying?

Is it the two crew stuff, is it the discipline, is it the "being just a number"?

I note that you said:

"I feel like I'm flying around with my hands tied behind my back as the decision making process has been removed from the cockpit and placed into a manager's briefcase sitting in the window of a small office near the brekky creek."

I guess that means that you are now with Virgin.

I have a pretty good understanding of that Company and can tell you that the management of that company expect pilots to make decisions and get frustrated when they don't.

Yes there are lots of rules, FCON's, amendments etc, but that is just part of operating in this world full of lawyers and people who are ready to complain when something doesn't run according to the script.

I don't know what base you are in but go and talk to your SBP or MLO and express your frustrations. They may be able to help or give you a different perspective to think about. You said you feel as though you can't make a decision. Identify what decisions you want to make and talk to someone. I suspect you will find that there is plenty of scope to do things within the bounds of the OM.

There are also plenty of things you can do to resolve your dislike of airline flying if you can figure out in your own head what it is you dislike.

By extension you must identify those things that you like about this job.

My airline flying has allowed me to fly brand new jets still with the new car smell, around the world. I have been to numerous places that a career in GA would never afford you and that with GA wages you could never afford.

I have worked on projects that have challenged me but when done are extremely satisfying and you can look back and see the fruits of your labours.

I have met people that I like very much (and go as far as to say love - but in a manly non sexual way:))and met people I don't like.

I met the love of my life in this job (no she isn't cabin crew) and in short my airline career has provided me with 2 awesome kids and over 20 years of happy marriage - with no divorces (or beemers for that matter).

My suggestion is cast your net a little wider. Look at the things that you can do to lessen the impact of the things you dislike about airline flying and maximize the things you like.

You can do simple stuff by trying to make each flight as technically perfect as possible (without becoming an anal asshole and miserable to fly with). You can use the trips you do to explore the cities you overnight in.

Develop an interest in photography - pardon the pun (a pun which may be lost on modern generations where they don't remember film). Use the flying to develop your photography skills (oops another photography pun) - there is a thread in this place that runs for hundreds of pages with photos

Develop an interest outside the flight deck - and before anyone suggests it is a greasy pole suggestion it isn't, look at ground school facilitation - EP's, CRM/NTS etc, peer counseling, incident support, FDM gate keeping.

If you are really convinced that this isn't the life for you, approach your management and see if you can get 6-12 months leave without pay. Dip your toe back in the GA waters and see how you go.

My airline career has funded good schools for my kids, a decent house, the occasional holiday, more big boy toys than I care to name. Line pilots get more days off than the average bear and as a result can drop kids at school and pick them up again - not all the time obviously, but more frequently than someone working an office job and more than someone trying to scratch out a living in GA.

So my advice is this, you have worked your backside off and gotten into the right hand seat of a shiny jet. Don't get buyers remorse and walk away prematurely. By all means walk away at the end of the process if you are convinced it is the right thing to do, but getting into that seat is hard work and more than a fair share of good luck. You would be unlikely to be able to do it twice (an employer would be a bit gunshy looking at your résumé) which actually raises another good point. A GA employer may look at your résumé and see a relatively small amount of airline flying and decide that you either failed or got the push - and give you a miss as too much of a risk. An airline will look at your résumé and see a small amount of airline flying and decide the same things and/or that you are a risk of doing a runner again after they invest the best part of 100k in training you - and so will give you a miss.

Don't end up with nothing.....

[Flying Bear]

HNN, great discussion here!

I, like most others, started flying with the aim of joining an airline and flying the "shiny jet" - but as I worked through the industry my mindset changed and I ended up running away and flying in the military for several years before reaching the point that 10 months per year overseas or on exercise needed to stop.

So, when I wanted my life back, I rejoined civil aviation and identified that if I was to make a go of it, have enough financial strength to enjoy life and still fly on my terms (and I enjoy single pilot work, flying aircraft that won't mitigate my every error and getting my take-off and landing each hour...) - I would need to find a niche, because as many above have identified - line flying in GA won't work except in few rare cases (ie RFDS).

Therefore, if you elect to return to GA, you can make it work by finding that niche - be it check and training (many of those former dodgy GA operations are being dragged into the brave new world of CAR 217) or pilot management (maybe you would like to be a Chief Pilot who could actually make a difference?). Now, you won't get the same money that the LHS of a 747 would attract, but you can still do quite well - but it is a big challenge to do so. Didn't you say that you wanted the challenge?

Clapped out twins, maybe, but although relatively easy to fly them safely, it is bloody hard to fly them well - and with a variety of types to mix up your day there are some things in GA to cherish.

However, as you no doubt will, weigh up the pros and cons - and do some research before committing to a course of action. You would do well to target some specific GA operators that you would like to make a start with - and see what they say. With your experience, you should be able to sift the BS from those who genuinely try to go about it the right way...

[hot ngukurr nights]

Some really great points and lots of things to think about, really appreciate all the input.

Snakecharma, I guess it's just an overall dissatisfaction with the airline experience. I feel frustrated with the complexity of tasks that were once simple and are now no longer, indeed I understand as you mentioned why that is as it's part of working for the airline with litigation around every corner and the absolute requirement for having to justify every move you make. I know it's a good company, and I know every airline in this part of the world operates to the same standard, it's certainly not a gripe with the operation but more so the environment in which we work as airline pilots. Bit of a generic response I know but the simple fact is that I feel that it's just not for me. Maybe as centaurus mentioned it is indeed the new FO experience, and maybe in a decade with a command under my belt it'll all make sense. After all, a year in a career is barely a drop in the ocean and I understand that.

I know nostalgia of the old days in GA can very much cloud the perception of what it was really like, and that is why I'm going to be careful and take my time with any decision. Having been back once before I know exactly what it's like, it takes but a couple of days and you're right back there with the same old problems. No drastic decisions are going to be made, I just thought it would be a good idea to get a perspective from a professional point of view as it's very easy to convince yourself in isolation that one way is better than the other. I will most certainly return to GA, but whether that's sooner or later I'm not too sure. Either way, I want to make sure I'm being the best I can be and giving everything to the job, not simply rolling up because I have to.

I think I'd really suit the RFDS or a training role (or both!) so that's something I'll certainly throw in the mix so cheers B58, bear, jab and nomad for the replies. At the same time I think it's wise to hang about for a bit longer to do the best I can, and if it's still the same in a year or so I'll have to make a decision.

Every now and then, despite the crap that goes on here sometimes there's a lot of valuable help and experience out there be it from pilots, ginger beers or interested parties so thanks all for taking the time to reply. You've certainly given me something more to think about.

Cheers all, HNN

[Unusual-Attitude]

I was insanely bored of the flying in Aus, ILS to ILS, AP engaged by 1000', disengaged at 300'...long sectors across the GAFA with nothing to look at...

I'm now with PX in PNG on Dash 8's and absolutely loving it! Best of both worlds IMHO.

The stability of a national carrier, very good pay, but off the scale fun flying around the islands and highlands, with top guys who generally feel the same about their careers/flying.

I'm not saying its perfect, (what job is?) or for everyone, but it has reenergised my formerly jaded outlook on airline flying. If you want challenge and lots of command decision making, this is the place I recon.

Saved me from canning the whole thing in, worth a thought.

[Swamp Duck]

G'Day hot ngukurr nights,

The first thing you should get your head around is your title "downshifting". I disagree. I spent a large part of my career as a Airline Captain and have done just what you are asking, no regrets. The best job in aviation has little to do with the size of the aircraft unless you get off on telling everyone at the pub that you are a jet pilot. That respect died years ago. I got to same place you are, sick of the egos, bull****, and constantly watching my back. It was taking its toll on both my sanity and self confidence. It wasn't fun any more. I decided to get off the merry go round. I now work for the RFDS. I must admit initially the decision was a big call, right out of my comfort zone but I now work for an organisation that treats me with respect, is highly respected by both the community and the aviation industry and I love going to work again, as do all of my work colleagues. Did I mention great aeroplanes, constant variety and I'm helping people. So no it is not "downshifting", its stepping up. If you are not happy, do something about it, just my thoughts

[hot ngukurr nights]

Cheers again for the feedback, a lot to think about. All very much appreciated,
HNN