Inadvertent IMC question

[tartare]

Chaps - a hypothetical question from a fixed wing PPL.
I am a non instrument rated pilot in a helicopter below MSA in deteriorating conditions, with steep terrain about a half kilometre away which I am travelling towards at about 120 knots, and being over thick bushland, there is no suitable landing site below.
I inadvertently enter IMC that shows no signs of thinning out, and am overloaded to the point that I can't remember the reciprocal heading to turn back onto.
Is best practise to:
*scan the panel to ensure I am straight and level, maintain airspeed and initiate an immediate climb to above MSA, because the translational lift over the disc will give me best climb performance, or,
*slow to as near to a hover as I can while keeping the aircraft straight and level, pull full collective and rise to above MSA
Question is asked in the context of a recent military crash I was reading about.
I had always thought that inadvertent IMC in a helicopter was less dangerous than a fixed wing because you could simply climb vertically to above MSA. However reading how difficult helicopter IMC flight is, and thinking about the possible disorientating effects of a rapid slow to a near hover while IMC - I'm not so sure.
Anyone able to offer any viewpoints?

[S76Heavy]

You should not be there in the first place. A lot must have gone wrong in your decision making to end up low, IIMC and above terrain that does not allow a safe precautionary landing, while moving towards high terrain.

Once in that predicament, climb at Vy to above MSA then level, get on your radio and call for vectors.
Any slower and you will have less rate of climb and an even more unstable aircraft. Any faster and you're eating up distance more than necessary while lowering your rate of climb.

Chances are though, you won't survive the climb if you're not accustomed to flying on instruments. And by that I mean more than the minimum exposure to flying the dials. The statistics are just not good.

[tartare]

Thanks.
So is Vy in a helicopter always at significant enough forward speed to have translational airflow over the main rotor disc?
Or can Vy be attained by being stationary and simply pulling full collective pitch to ascend vertically?
i.e. will I always climb faster if the machine is actually moving forward at speed, rather than acsending vertically from a hover?

[paco]

As mentioned, you need speed because the stabilisation surfaces don't kick in until a certain minimum IMC speed, which in the Dauphin is 76 knots. For most light helicopters, it's around 45 knots. You certainly shouldn't hover without a visual reference. You would have around 178 seconds to live, according to Australian figures. Inadvertent IMC is much more dangerous in a helicopter.

Also, as mentioned, you shouldn't be there in the first place, although you can occasionally get caught out, as the helicopter creates its own fog sometimes and you won't realise until you turn round. This is why you need to know the MSA before you take off and who to call at that altitude.

Phil

PS - VY is best rate of climb, which you get at a certain sweet spot between lift and drag, so you would climb faster at that speed. VX is best angle of climb, which would certainly be vertical if you had the power, but you would be very unwise to do that.

[tartare]

Question answered - thanks guys.
Having struggled to keep a Robbie in a stable hover VFR, I can't imagine what rotary wing IFR must be like.

[bogey@6]

1/2 kms to a steep terrain, IMC, 120Kts, below MSA, overloaded, non IFR rated! Hypothetical answer is>> Perfect set-up for a FIT! Can't even call it a CFIT because you'd lose control.

[Arm out the window]

Just to clarify a bit, Tartare (I guess you're asking in reference to the Kiwi Huey thread on the Military forum):

Lots of helicopters, including the Huey, don't have an airspeed indicating system that will read below about 40 kts. You do have attitude indicators, but the hover attitude is probably about 5 deg nose up and a few degrees left skid low, and will vary depending on loading anyway.

The bottom line is that if you tried to hover (or climb in a hover attitude, ie trying to stay over one spot) with no external reference, you would in reality be drifting around all over the place and it would be extremely hard work.

Secondly, and more importantly in this case I think, a heavily laden Huey may well not be able to hover out of ground effect (OGE), so if you tried to slow to the hover in order to attempt a vertical climb, you might well run out of power and end up going down anyway.

It would be great if you could do it, but having practiced trying to hover on instruments under a hood, it's damn near impossible because you don't have any idea of which way you're drifting - you could be doing 40 kt forwards (or backwards or sideways) without knowing much about it.

For those guys, being in formation would have greatly complicated the issue too, as a formation is a lot less manoueverable than a single ship.

[tartare]

That's exactly what I was asking about AOTW - thank you, clarifies a lot.
Hadn't thought about the OGE issue.
Had also forgotten of course that to hover effectively you need to pick an external reference point ideally in relation to airframe, and not let it move.
Kind of hard if you are in IMC.

[explorer99]

Here's my two penneth:

So you're hypothetically a PPL with virtually no instrument experience who's gone too fast into a situation that has just got you scared stupid. I am assuming that it's now too late to take any of the three options that are appropriate when encountering poor weather (slow down, go down, turn round) and that entering IMC is inevitable. I'm also assuming you're in a light single. That fright that you've just received, and the rapid realisation that you're way out of your depth, is going to significantly reduce your brain's processing ability, so my advice would be to keep the recovery actions as generic and as simple as possible.

1. Straight away, concentrate on your attitude indicator. That's the first step in keeping yourself alive. Put the wings level and the dot on the horizon. (Yes, that will probably induce a slight climb, but that's not a major problem at this point.)

2. Pull in power to your max continuous setting. Do this smoothly, remembering to feed in the appropriate pedal to have a chance of controlling the yaw. (IMO any more than max con for a VFR PPL in IMC is likely to cause control problems, and also needs brain capacity to remember the limit!)

3. Concentrate on the attitude indicator, but also check across to your airspeed - it will almost certainly be reducing if the AI dot is still on the horizon, but not too quickly; peg the speed at about 70 kts by putting the AI dot a couple of degrees below the horizon. (70 kts is a reasonable generic min power speed, hence best rate-of-climb speed, and aids stability. It's also easy for a low-hr PPL to remember, instead of using brain capacity trying to remember what Vy means.)

4. Make sure the slip ball is in the middle, and hold that attitude (with a quick check of the speed every now and then) until you are above MSA. When you get there, smoothly reduce power to something suitable for the cruise, remembering to use the appropriate pedal at the same time.

5. Concentrate on the attitude indicator, with occasional checks of speed, height and heading.

6. Put out a MAYDAY call on whichever ATC frequency you have selected - don't distract yourself from the attitude indicator by changing radio frequencies, otherwise you'll lose it! (There's a good reason, if ever you need one, for always having a suitable ATC frequency selected!)

7. Whatever happens subsequently, concentrate on the attitude indicator (see a theme here?) with occasional quick checks of speed, height and heading.


Even better, use those three options from para 1 before you get anywhere near Inadvertent IMC!

E99

[Savoia]

Tartare: The picture you portray (taken from the NZAF accident) is a 'rotarians' nightmare and several of us have lost friends in similar circumstances.

Some general points of airmanship relating to such conditions: One of first things to address is a reduction in airspeed the moment you find yourself approaching poor vis when in the proximity of terrain - this buys you time (not much) but time nonetheless. If you are in a formation (or even flying in company) this must be broken, as reduced vis + terrain + formed aircraft, do not mix. The flight would (should) have a break procedure.

Should IMC be entered into inadvertently then climbing away is one potential solution but, as discussed, it is not always possible as the aircraft's performance may be restricted. Moreover, unless trained in the practice of IFR, some pilots quickly become disoriented and which usually leads to disaster within seconds.

So what are some of the 'realities' in circumstances such as these? In reality and unless someone is confident enough to 'climb through' (confident not only in their ability to properly control the craft but also that the craft will be able to reach MSA) they will instinctively attempt to recapture VMC and which usually means one of four things; 1) Pushing on in current conditions while praying for an improvement in the vis, 2) Attempting to back-track (I say attempt because it is in attempting this manoeuvre that many souls have perished), 3) Descending (in the hope of exiting IMC), or 4) A combination of all the aforementioned.

While executing the above responses, many many drivers over the years have caught 'lucky breaks' (including yours truly) but, it is probably the most unpleasant of rotary-wing experiences and - many more have paid the ultimate price for 'finding' (or placing) themselves in such circumstances.

In my own case many moons ago and not too far away from New Zealand, my years of flying in Papua New Guinea brought me closer to heaven gates (or maybe even the other place) than I cared for.

Despite the fact that I had a reputation for 'playing it safe' when it came to weather, in a place like PNG if you only flew when the weather was fair, you simply wouldn't fly. Certainly no meaningful work would get done. As you 'learned' the weather you would develop the parameters within which you could safely work but .. that was very much an individual experience for each driver.

One time we had a newbie driver (ex plank) who inadvertently entered IMC in a 500. He ploughed through till he came out on top (I think at around 21,000 feet .. the MSA in most parts of PNG is usually around 19-20k in anycase).

Somehow (before running out of fuel) he managed to find a hole and eventually landed back at Goroka. He was lucky (as well as a few other things that I won't mention here). I remember the ship's entire strap-pack had to be replaced after his exploit.

May I share what often happens as you get older and gain experience? In a sentence .. you basically learn to steer clear of such scenarios. For me, as the years went by, I simply found myself able to better recognise patterns of weather deterioration and its relation to my environment (mountainous and hilly) and to respect the vice of weather. Low fuel and or fading light would cause me to push back, even further, those 'parameters' within which I had found I was able to safely work. That's the 'experience' bit. The 'getting older' bit (spurred by the loss of friends who had perished in circumstances of poor weather) meant that when a pushy client or demanding ops manager piled on the pressure, you simply dug in your heels with that life-saving word .. no!

I have over the past year asked myself several times whether in the case of AJ Smith, Agusta's new 'synthetic vision' would have given him the ability to 'swerve' the hilltop upon which he met his fate. I don't know. Possibly. Perhaps with reduced speed. Synthetic vision may turn out to be a blessing for cases of inadvertent entrance into IMC or .. it could achieve nothing (or even make things worse) if drivers use it to 'extend' the parameters of VMC.

At the end of the day in every single situation, it comes down to airmanship. Professionalism (if one is flying commercially), common sense (or just good airmanship) if you are flying privately and in both cases .. discipline.

The golden rule in this area is a pretty simple one. If you're flying VFR .. keep it that way!

[Fareastdriver]

Inadvertent IMC question

Looked like a deliberate question to me.

[Hummingfrog]

Paco

minimum IMC speed, which in the Dauphin is 76 knots.

To be pedantic the min IMC speed is 40kts with other limits as table below:-

IMC flight
The approved IMC envelope is shown at Figure 1
At least one lane of each autopilot channel must be operative.

Minimum airspeed 40 knots (IAS Hold engaged)
Minimum airspeed VY (normal operation)
Maximum airspeed VNE.

The only a/c I have flown that you could climb vertically IMC ( if within HOGE ) is the Seaking which had a doppler meter giving groundspeed in any direction up to 40kts. I only every used it once to climb IMC and that was in the Cairngorms (Scotland) where I had to do an IMC climb from amongst the mountains on a SAR callout. The idea was to fly at min IMC speed commensurate with keeping the doppler meter as near zero as possible, accelerating once past MSA.

I am sure that anybody who tried to hover IMC with no doppler meter would soon meet their maker!

HF

[RVDT]

Telling people it's possible to fly on instruments after Inadvertent IMC on a forum is just plain wrong.

You will not be able to do it. Do not get yourself in that position in the first place. Learn how not to get yourself in that position.

Treat the clouds like rocks as some definitely have rocks inside them. See Sav's post.

Always stay halfway between the cloud base and the ground. When the ground gets too close make sure you can land on it.

In the above scenario as you cannot hover you are now flying a fixed wing.

Would you place yourself in this situation in a fixed wing?

Remember the object of the exercise when getting in the aircraft is the successful completion of the flight, not suck it and see.

The best method is to start with where you want to end up and work backwards to where you are now.

You never want to feel like this guy.

http://www.cyberchromeusa.com/Portals/60113/images//paint%20into%20corner.jpg

[Evil Twin]

Where I used to work we had a student who went IIMC for 15 minutes in a Hughes 300 without even an AI to help. Just basic instruments and a turn and slip indicator.

The scenario goes something like this:-

The student was out on a pre PPL x-country navigation exercise who, when caught out by deterioratiing weather put a call out to Christchurch information (NZ) for assistance. Due to his location the radio conversation had to be relayed through a fixed wing aircraft. Somehow, CHCH thought he was an IFR equipped fixed wing aircraft and cleared him to climb to 7000' (ish can't remember the exact figures) The dutiful student that he was, and unbeknown to the amount of poo he was about to be in, he followed the instruction and begun a climb into the cloud.

Shortly after this he tuned up the second com set in the aircraft to our base radio and called in to let us know what was going on?! The very short reply was that he should remain only in contact with information and focus his efforts on flying the aircraft safely. We also didn't want to panic him though there were a number of very ashen faced instructors diving for computers to call up spidertracks. Now, we all new the equipment fitout of the aircraft and also knew that his chances were pretty slim on making it home. We watched the trace climbing up to 6750' ish and breathed a collective sigh of relief everytime we received a new ping. The next ping showed that he was descending and were later told that he was starting to get paniky as he climbed through 7000' and hadn't regained VMC. His next call to control was requesting a descent as not VMC and he was cleared back down to 2000' further descent was to be at his own discretion as he would then be out of radar coverage.

He eventually popped back out of the clouds at 1800' about 15 NM from base and made his way back without further incident. It's my belief that what kept him alive was that equalled to his presence of mind in working out that if he kept the compass pointing the same heading he'd be ok and if he maintained airspeed and power he must have a constant attitude, he also didn't know just how much of the brown he was in and therefore didn't panic.

We all thought that we were watching a dead man on the tracks that day, I am incredibly glad that he isn't and survived to relay his tale. I have told a large number of people about that day and indeed have had friends and collegues get in touch with him and ask questions.

I'm just about to complete my SECIR and would not want to be in a similar situation even with the limited experience that I have, I'm very glad that the trainee in question made it home safely that day. I also tell my students to stay away from clouds as aeroplanes and mountains hide in them.

ET

[Savoia]

RVDT: A better graphic illustration I couldn't imagine! :ok:

It should be in every pilot's crew room above the words "Dont let weather do this to you".

Well done.

[tartare]

Fareastdriver - legitimate question - honest.
To others, thanks for your insights - very interesting.
I grew up in NZ and in a former career as a journalist, flew with many NZ helicopter pilots (Alan Bond, Bill Black etc) in dodgy conditions like this.
I was also a fixed wing PPL at the time, so the human factors of rotary wing flight in near IMC is a topic of interest.
I flew with Bondy a few months b4 he died; we hover taxied down the Mt Hutt road in foul conditions, and I was astonished at the airmanship.
Insight from places like PNG is also very interesting - big mountains and rapidly changing weather conditions.
Gentlemen, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[RVDT]

E99,

Your hypothesis is based on the fact that you have an AI in the first place!

They cost a bit more than 2p I think.

[Savoia]

In PNG hardly any of the singles were fitted with an AI.

If inadvertently entering IMC it was down to using the standby compass (for the most basic attitude awareness) and the turn and slip indicator.

Not fun.

[Soave_Pilot]

I once got into IMC inadvertely, although I am IFR rated I was flying a non IFR helicopter, I got into low strats clouds 8/8, about 5 min after take off I lost visual references right after a crossed a hill so I imediately concentraded on my attitude indicator (only thing I had), since I had flown that route few times before I knew the MSA, I climbed 200 ft to clear the hill safely on the way back, did a 180 turn, flew the magenta line on the GPS back to the take off site once i got there started decending... and got out, and the pax next to me had no clue on what had just happened..

It felt pretty disconforting getting into IMC without actually planning on doing it specially in a non IFR aircraft, it felt like my mind wasnt ready for it, it was pretty weird.

[Nubian]

Bare minimums would be to keep the scan of the instruments going, not to fix on only one of them.
If you don't have an AI, the only thing that works is to keep the compass or DG (if you have) pointing in the same direction at the same time as the speed and altimeter should be "glued" on the respective values. (unless of course you need to get to MSA)

I had a not so pleasant experience doing a long ferry over water (lucky enough). I flew through a front I was not briefed about by the Met-office, that came up beyond PNR, and nowhere to land....! :eek: I had my IF rating, the helicopter had an AI, DG and an old GPS. I went back to what my instrument instructor told me "pitch, bank, power" (altimeter for pitch, DG for bank and airspeed for power) and kept the scan going until a popped back out again after about 10 minutes in the ****.. (I had radio comms with destination, and knew the weather was good there, and no terrain between, so I fortunately didn't have to climb to get to MSA) By far the longest 10 minutes of my career to date!

As said above, the best is to avoid IIMC altoghter:ok:

[John R81]

I have synthetic vision installed in an EC120 as part of the Flymap system. I have used it in good VMC both "down south" - where it is not shown to its best effect because we don't have much high terrain to worry about - and when flying through the Scottish hills & glens (valley) - where it is quite impressive; particularly when flying along a glen.

It might indeed be an additional help during inadvertant IMC but I have no intention of finding out.

[Non-PC Plod]

A good idea to cope with IEIC is to start making contingency plans as soon as you recognize that you are in deteriorating weather over difficult terrain. If you are flying as part of a crew, you can pre-brief what you are going to do....IF For example: "If we go IMC, I am going to maintain 60kts, and carry out a level turn to the right onto our escape heading of xxx." As part of a formation, IEIC actions should always be included as part of the formation brief before you depart. Its always easier to make difficult decisions before you are maxed-out!

[spinwing]

Mmmmmm ....


... the MSA in most parts of PNG is usually around 19-20k in anycase ...


Gee Sav ... your playing with the truth a bit ... thats not how I remember it ...

Google Earth reveals all .....


Yes there are some high bits .. BUT 19-20 K ft MSA is a bit dramatic !! :=

[RVDT]

Remember being in PNG in Mosby in a Baron with an Aussie bloke on the way to Madang.

He asked the local FOI about IFR.

The old codger looked over his specs and said, "can you maintain 17,000' on one engine?

Conversation end.

[Devil 49]

The scenario as presented has significant risk factors that will most likely destroy the aircraft and kill the crew.
A VFR pilot IIMC is probably going to lose control. Continuing into rising terrain below a safe altitude, without possibility of a vfr turnaround and deteriorating to IMC weather (especially with the rocks 8 seconds ahead- 120 kts over .5 km)
is an immediate life threatening situation. Land now, while you have power and control.
Pick a place where your least likely to catastrophically lose control of the helicopter in that process, like rolling down a mountain. The aircraft will suffer some damage, perhaps even be destroyed, but you improve the chances of survival significantly by sacrificing the airframe intelligently. IIMC crashes almost always destroy the aircraft and kill the crew.
If you don't want to face these choices, don't go where they're necessary.

[RVDT]

inadvertent
adjective
an inadvertent omission: unintentional, unintended, accidental, unpremeditated, unplanned, innocent, uncalculated, unconscious, unthinking, unwitting, involuntary; careless, negligent.

Just think you can probably be prosecuted for it as well if you survive.

The common terms are underlined which have parallels in regulatory terms.

It's called VFR - Visual Flight Rules

[Savoia]

Spinwing: You are right, the 'average' MSA must in fact be somewhere between 13,000 and 16,000 ft.

Lashings of apologies all round!

[pilot and apprentice]

False Horizon | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/features/features_article/FalseHorizon#.U74jF_ldWSo)

[Jet Ranger]

Good article. I read it a few days ago.:ok:

Especially interesting part is about the "caging the AH" during IIMC...


JR

[Bravo73]

False Horizon | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/features/features_article/FalseHorizon#.U74jF_ldWSo)

:sad:

There is a YouTube vid from Airbus Helicopters that is linked in the article. It is also worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMxuO77mdQo

[stilllearning]

pure gold !!! great article where sooner or later we all can find a lesson ...
Fly safe

[rotorboy]

An excellent article.

RB

[crunchingnumbers]

Excellent article and video. I'd seen the flight reconstruction at a safety meeting but this puts it all into context. I'll be presenting this at a Air Medical safety meeting for crews on Monday.

[rotorspeed]

As someone who flies IMC quite a bit in a corporate role, I also find it useful to fly with (brief) reference to instruments in VMC conditions from time to time, particularly when departing and approaching. It's pretty interesting seeing exacty what the AI is displaying as you lift, transition and climb away, particularly with pitch changes. Getting familiar with patterns of say a transient 10 deg pitch down, first increasing then decreasing, but with the VSI and ASI climbing, plus in a turn, is good training. And on approaches too. Clearly when you're flying in IMC, pitch and roll changes are much slower but it's good for your scan though to piece it all together on instruments on a VMC departure. I think some VFR pilots (and even some IFR) might benefit with being more familiar with the AI picture to give more confidence when hand flying in IMC. The stress of IIMC for a VFR pilot is sure to test whatever formal instrument training has ever been undertaken, yet this sort of informal self-training can be done on many flights.

[Mars]

For the most comprehensive coverage on a VFR/NVG LOC accident, visit this site:

Board Meeting: Alaska State Troopers Helicopter Crash (http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2014/2014_AKheli_BMG/2014_AKheli_BMG.html)

Once there, read all the relevant material but, specifically, visit the 'presentations' via the hot-field on the top right of the opening page:

Presentations (http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2014/2014_AKheli_BMG/2014_AKheli_BMG_presentations.html)

The discussion on this site - including the opening message from the Acting Chairman Christopher A Hart - is the most compelling I have seen ever.

Mars

[ShyTorque]

Tried to read it but clicking on the presentation link does nothing on my PC or Ipad.

I found it on Youtube by clicking on the other links.

I was most interested to find out what the pilot's instrument flying qualifications and experience were; now seen(!).
Obviously, there was no IFR backup plan.

[chopjock]

nelly
i was taught - if you enter the crap and you cannot see - Go up for a think and ask for help

I was taught never to enter the crap. But if I did I would be going slow and low enough to get back out of it in a slow, shallow decent.

[[email protected]]

nelly


I was taught never to enter the crap. But if I did I would be going slow and low enough to get back out of it in a slow, shallow decent.

And that's the bit that will kill you choppy..............If you are already so low and slow, you should have turned back or landed long before.

You are kidding yourself if you think you can maintain adequate control in low speed IMC flight and still have the awareness to avoid wires and other obstacles that might suddenly appear out of the murk.

[nellycopter]

nelly


I was taught never to enter the crap. But if I did I would be going slow and low enough to get back out of it in a slow, shallow decent.
im wondering why they teach and test VFR pilots with the Foggles every year - Chpjock.... you don't tend to hit things by going up a little for a think instead of down for a look - when you do end up in the crap..... i bet every one of you has had that eeeeerrrrrrrrrr moment in your days of flying helicopters... and had to do a 180..... or go up and do one ....
The radar controllers will help anyone ... even a VRF single who has inadvertantly enerted the cloud or crap - even in uncontrolled airspace ....
i wasn't in any way saying that is what it was or what caused it - living not far away and not been able to see the pylon tops...made me keep my feet on the ground.....

[homonculus]

How long can the average VFR rated helicopter pilot keep an unstabilised helicopter upright in IMC without SAS or an autopilot? We are not talking about preplanned IMC but sudden loss of visual references. And to then set up and follow a PRA (frequency and altimeter changes, changes of heading / height / speed, set up ROD ) because most likely the cloudbase will be below minima elsewhere......... The only lesson to be learned is dont go IIMC. Put it on the ground, swallow your pride and have a cup of tea.

[chopjock]

crab
.If you are already so low and slow, you should have turned back or landed long before.

You are kidding yourself if you think you can maintain adequate control in low speed IMC flight and still have the awareness to avoid wires and other obstacles that might suddenly appear out of the murk.

Agreed of course, but IF I was to enter IIMC it's already too late, but would prefer to be in a shallow 30 kt decent than tanking along blind trying to maintain adequate control...

[jellycopter]

For any low-times reading this, please stay out of cloud - full stop! In my opinion, the annual foggles exercise is nonsense - IMC just is not an option. When faced with deteriorating weather, forget the 500ft rule; stay VMC below. If you go IIMC you're signing your own death warrant. Remember, you can't crash into the rule book!

[4468]

I was taught never to enter the crap. But if I did I would be going slow and low enough to get back out of it in a slow, shallow decent.
Precisely the reason why some helicopter pilots can be so dangerous.

People think they can tool along in a helicopter in weather that is marginal. ‘Knowing’ that without adequate instrument skills and equipment, they can just go down and slow down to remain out of cloud. ‘Hoping’ that the weather will miraculously improve!

I have absolutely no idea what happened in the accident being discussed here, but anyone thinking they can follow chopjock’s advice. Please. Please. Please don’t. The moment the weather gets remotely marginal. Just find somewhere safe, put the thing on the deck, and shut down.

The only other safe alternative, if you have the equipment on board AND a suitable icing clearance, and the recent skills, is to climb to MSA, and fly an instrument recovery to a suitable airfield. Oh, and if you have any idea you may have to resort to this method, you really should include it in your pre-flight planning. MSAs, radio frequencies, (or guard!) fuel for diversion to a second alternate, and suitable approach minima. Very few private helicopter/pilot combos will have this option. If that’s the case, just put it on the deck, and walk away!

Take either of those two options, or you are simply an accident waiting to happen.

[SASless]

Agreed of course, but IF I was to enter IIMC it's already too late, but would prefer to be in a shallow 30 kt decent than tanking along blind trying to maintain adequate control...

That Squire....is choosing between two very poor Options...both of which shall get you killed in a very dramatic but boring fashion.

Unskilled, un-current, un-proficient, un-prepared Pilots in under-equipped helicopters is never a situation that turns out for the good when it comes to IIMC flight.

The key is setting safe limits and sticking to them.

A nice Pub Lunch and a coffee while you wait for the weather to improve beats pushing up Daisy Roots by far.

I used to be a very dedicated Scud Runner but never went IIMC....but I met some very nice people in the oddest of places.

I set limits to what weather I would fly in...and always had the mindset that I would never fly faster than I could see-avoid-land....safely.

I never did my silliness in the dark.

Always have Taxi Fare in your Flight Case in case you need it.

[Thomas coupling]

Simplythebeast, et al: please try and stay with it, eh? You are on a rumour network here (the clue is actually in the word Pprune). If we all stayed quiet until the AAIB responded, there would be no PPrune!
The nature of the beast is that we discuss options and assumptions......

Chopjock - you should know better by now. Quite a few newbie's come on here to look and learn. Telling them it's normal to "Scud Run" is not good for them or the fraternity, is it.

Scud running is illegal and will almost certainly lead to IIMC at some stage. And as Crab said - flying lo and slo under clouds is certainly a recipe for diaster.
A shallow descent out of IMC is pure fantasy. To achieve this one has to be able to "FLY" a controlled flight path on instruments to achieve the departure path you require to regain VFR, doesn't it and as Homonculus states - once in cloud and without currency, you are living on borrowed time and will almost certainly lose control of your aircraft, very very quickly - probably as this guy did.
C'mon chopjock polish your act up and act responsibly now:)

[paco]

Given that the stabilising devices on most light helicopters start kicking in at about 45 kts, and that I can't really gauge distance from the cockpit :), if I don't like what I see at 60 knots I prefer to be on the ground....

[Old Age Pilot]

i was taught - if you enter the crap and you cannot see - Go up for a think and ask for help .... NEVER go down for a look ...

I was always taught: "If you enter the crap and you cannot see, do a 180 and go back to the clear weather you from which you just came"

While going up is wise from an obstacle point of view, VFR helicopter pilots don't usually fair well in this situation. Logically, said VFR pilot would have most likely had some form of vis before entering the crap.

Obviously if the weather has closed in all around by that point, then go for the known outcome and land in that big ol' field you see below you. If you can't do any of that, then you shouldn't have gotten airborne in the first place.

Just my two cents.

[Old Age Pilot]

As for going down: oh dear :bored:

Agreed of course, but IF I was to enter IIMC it's already too late, but would prefer to be in a shallow 30 kt decent than tanking along blind trying to maintain adequate control...

And what is the long term outcome of this presumably ongoing gradual descent into the unknown murk? It just to gently plop onto a soft lawn that just so happens to be at the point where your shallow angled descent path meets the ground? Maybe the lovely person who has seen you coming in has put the kettle on and is fetching you a nice hot coffee as you do your two minute shut down.

[nellycopter]

within my first 25 hrs of training - my instructor had a blanket over my head taped to the cockpit windows and steam gauges of the 22 & 44 ....of course before anyone says it - he was outside the blanket looking where we were going .....
no cheating now like you can with the foggles... i remember him saying ....
i know no-one wants to admit on here but again bet you have all been a tad worried and in the crap at some point in your heli days ...

[SASless]

I suppose we need to dredge up prior discussions here on this topic of IIMC and what works when you are silly enough to commit that Mortal Sin.

180 Turns sound nice in theory....but the last thing you need to do is throw in a bank and turn immediately after going IIMC....granted that and other gyrations will occur quite naturally all on their own and not due to anything the Pilot can do to prevent them due to the "Inadvertent" entry.

As there are as many variables as there are pilots and circumstances surrounding the IIMC Event....one hard fast rule shall not work in every instance.

One of the Tricks of Old Aged Offshore Pilots is a "Find the Surface" evolution that involves Minimum IMC Airspeed possible...into Wind....and a very slow ROD...into a known area clear of obstacles...until you see something usable to control the attitude of the aircraft.....and done only as the very last resort prior to running out of fuel.

Soft ditchings beats heck out of an autorotative descent on Instruments without knowing where the surface really is.

So....yes a slow descent might be the thing....if planned and well thought out....but never done on the spur of the moment out of immediate necessity.

[jellycopter]

Nelly,

After 35 years flying, mostly in the military with an IR, and the vast majority in helicopters, I have never been IIMC! I've had a few unplanned excursions into IMC as a conscious decision in deteriorating conditions. But never inadvertently. The age old adage remains valid : Go down, slow down, turn round, land on.

[Cornish Jack]

Hmmm - there are, as in most things, exceptions. Professional S&R pilot plus three crew, hover-taxying up a valley in the murk, enters IMC and decides to climb out. Good move?? Well, actually no!! Climbed into the base of a Cb and they were spat out of the side at 12,000' ... as a kit of parts! 4 fatals, friends amongst them. Probably the one exception to prove the rule but, sh1t happens ... especially in helos.

[megan]

chopjock, I see from your profile that you own and operate a H500 and hold a PPL. I beg of you, please, please take heed of the advice given by the old heads here, SASless, Crab and Thomas Coupling. I'm betting you have no IF experience to speak of, scud running and driving your 500 into a cloud is only going to have one outcome, the exact same as prompted this thread. Get home'itis is a killer, park it and get the thermos and sandwiches out, or take a cab. Your wife/partner and kids will thank you for it.

[chopjock]

Guys,
Read my post, I said "I was taught never to enter the crap". I never have done and never will. I just said "IF". Jeez

[nigelh]

If you always keep forward viz of less than the distance to stop ....bit like driving .. you can always stop and turn around or land . It’s worked for me for many years and I have never had to resort to instruments. Landing should always be an option !

[fadecdegraded]

crab


Agreed of course, but IF I was to enter IIMC it's already too late, but would prefer to be in a shallow 30 kt decent than tanking along blind trying to maintain adequate control...

Im not sure I agree with you chop or more likely the person who told you this is what to do.
If you have the IF skills to keep descending and slow down and still keep it all upright then you also have the skills to climb and get away from the terrain and then radio a ATC falcility and get some help from them to get you safely back on the ground.
To keep descending and slowing down in IIMC is a recipe for disaster

[helicrazi]

Inadvertent IMC really focuses the mind, it takes alot of experience to overcome. It usually comes with disorientation and a loss of situational awareness. Low, slow and decending out of it smells of disaster, once it's happened IMO the only thing to do is climb to MEA and sort your $41t out.

Disclaimer: I'm talking about inadvertant IMC not this case in particular as I do not know the cause of events.

[chopjock]

fadec
Im not sure I agree with you chop or more likely the person who told you this is what to do.

No one told me what to do if IIMC. I was told not to go there! But "IF" it were to happen I would expect to crash and probably die. Therefore in my inexperienced opinion I would not know what to do and would want to try and lessen the impending impact by reducing my speed and inducing a controlled shallow ROD, attempt to get in to wind and look for visual references whilst trying not to panic...
Going up and away would simply aggravate the situation imo.

[jayteeto]

Chop jock, I lost a crew on operations abroad who tried to get out of IMC by slowing down and going down. I stood over their coffins as they were loaded to be flown back to the uk. The Inquiry was a nightmare, ripping their actions apart. Please listen, IF it ever happens, don’t try to descend IMC. I’m not after an argument with you, I’ve seen what happens

[helicrazi]

fadec


No one told me what to do if IIMC. I was told not to go there! But "IF" it were to happen I would expect to crash and probably die. Therefore in my inexperienced opinion I would not know what to do and would want to try and lessen the impending impact by reducing my speed and inducing a controlled shallow ROD, attempt to get in to wind and look for visual references whilst trying not to panic...
Going up and away would simply aggravate the situation imo.

IMO there are 2 edges of space, one is going to hurt alot, and with your methodology, you are going to meet it. Climb and ask for ATC assistance, they are fantastic at what they do, can do, and are underestimated

[helicrazi]

Chop jock, I lost a crew on operations abroad who tried to get out of IMC by slowing down and going down. I stood over their coffins as they were loaded to be flown back to the uk. The Inquiry was a nightmare, ripping their actions apart. Please listen, IF it ever happens, don’t try to descend IMC. I’m not after an argument with you, I’ve seen what happens

With you on this

[nellycopter]

we all agree we don't know what happened ..
but most of us agree - if you do end up 'in it....' going up for a think and ask for help is much better / safer than going down for a look .... every time ......

you might get the brown stuff in your pants .... but so long as you live to tell the tail ...

on your next annual check - get the examiner to simulate it with a cloth sheet see how you get on ?? why not , you might just learn something that one day could just save your life ....
im 15 or 16 years on and still enjoy a few hours out with my initial instructor, just for the jolly ride, and he never stops teaching ....
what would you do or where would you go if it conked now ? etc....

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Chopjock;

After every fatal accident you are on here giving us the benefit of your wisdom. I’m
expecting Pitts Extra at any minute too. Do rotary aviation a favour and keep your theories to yourself. You don’t know enough to know how dangerous your ignorant spoutings can be.

30kt in a descent? Why go so slow as to lose the stability benefits of fin and stabiliser? Why descend onto the unknown? You claim you’ve never done it, were taught not to even get close to IMC, in which case your theories carry even less weight.

Recently a son of a friend was about to do to do something he’d learned from one of your old posts. Luckily he told me before he did it. It wasn’t life threatening, but it was illegal. Lots of PPL’s come on this forum for professional pilots, and are welcome, but sometimes they also use it to find out how to do things, and in this case it was wrong.

I’ve flown IMC in a 332 from the Brent ro Aberdeen with no auto-pilot or stab due to a malfunction. My P2 and I took it in turns, at the end we were knackered, but both felt safe at 2500’ because there was nothing to hit. descend, 30kt IMC? No thanks I’d rather die in bed.

SND

Crab/Paco. CAA Man finally back. I’ll email dates on Monday.

[4468]

Totally agree with SND regarding chopjock’s spoutings! Anyone reading it without knowing any better. Please read the contributions of professionals, not cowboys!

But the truth is, even if a ppl could fly a wings level, speed stable climb after IIMC, they very, very likely couldn’t manage an approach to a suitable airfield. Even if their aircraft was equipped for it! That’s the sad fact!

For most ppls, inadvertent IMC is a one way ticket to nowhere. So please, please, please if ever you feel a knot in your stomach due weather, please just land while you still can!

[SuperF]

I have never heard of a VFR pilot going IMC and surviving. Not real IMC anyway.

For day VFR Pilots I don’t believe in IIMC. They made a decision a long time before to push the limits and go well under viz limits before they ever went IMC, unless they were in clear blue and punched into a cloud full speed.....

just slow down as the viz gets down, and then find somewhere to land while you can. It doesn’t have to be fog all the way to the ground before you decide to land, supposedly you need 500’ before you can start flying so that should be enough clearish sky for even the most incompetent pilot to get a helicopter onto a flat spot to shut down and wait it out.

i will always stay low and slow and in contact with the ground, but not going IMC. When you have to start thinking am I breaking the law, that is when you have to look for a place to land.

[Fareastdriver]

I’ve flown IMC in a 332 from the Brent ro Aberdeen with no auto-pilot or stab

I used to do that just to keep my hand in.

[helicrazi]

I used to do that just to keep my hand in.

Not allowed these days

[Sir Niall Dementia]

I used to do that just to keep my hand in.

They’ve taken all the fun out of the job now. In those days you did a non-precision approach without auto-pilot on base checks, nowadays it’s the one where you prove how clever you are with all the automatics.

Maybe its my age, but I do find myself thinking we had it better and did it better, my grandpa definitely reckoned his generation of pilots were far better than mine!

SND

[SASless]

There is no excuse for IIMC....ever. That being flying yourself into IMC conditions (being unable to maintain control of the aircraft by visual contact with external cues) while flying VMC.

That being said and I am not willing to debate that statement....a VFR only Pilot trying to build IMC and IFR Time with no notice....best hope your Life Insurance was paid up prior to flight.....no sense no good coming of your leaving.

A fully current and very proficient IFR Pilot will have problems coping with the event if the aircraft is not properly equipped....again invest in that Life Insurance.

The best and cheapest insurance policy....operating your aircraft in such a manner as you never go IMC in an inadvertent manner...ever.

In your trusty helicopter....use its unique capability to keep you out of trouble...slow down...hover if necessary...and fly at the speed that allows you to avoid ALL hazards.

In the context of this discussion....losing visual reference to the ground is the worst hazard possible.

If you can see and avoid wires, masts, trees, hills and mountains....why would you ever fly in a manner that does not allow for avoiding that really...really...really important hazard...losing sight of the surface?

You do not have to look at a weather forecast....I never had one in Iran, Burkina Faso, Alaska, and quite a few other places...to tell you how to fly once you are airborne.

The weather forecast can make hazard avoidance easy....marginal weather and forecast to get worse....weather below minimums....makes it simple....Coffee time.

Once you get airborne...if the weather deteriorates to below minimums for Take Off....HELLO! Land! Coffee time!

There is nothing we do in helicopter aviation that cannot wait (with the exception of perhaps SAR but even SAR Units have Minimums too!).

Why do you continue to fly in weather that if you knew existed along your route....you would not launch into?

My Hands are not clean....they are indelibly stained with guilt for having done exactly what I advocate against here.

I knew my limits and imposed the limitations that afforded me the ability to know when to call it quits before something bad happened.

The worst it got on occasions was not being able to get over a 35 foot high set of electric lines, or being unable to see my next Hover Spot....all of a hundred yards away....or relying upon a single wooden survey stake with some orange flagging as my sole visual reference atop a pinnacle/ridge landing site in a snow squall.

The Pinnacle thing scared me....for if that shaky wooden stake had departed its location...I would have departed into white out conditions in a VFR only MD 500.

The other life altering fright....was flying off the North Rim of the Grand Canyon in that same MD 500 (even the Airspeed Indicator had gone InOp....in very hazy conditions while holding up a big handful of VFR Map trying to figure out just where this Grand Canyon thing was....as I flew off the edge of the mile deep abyss...with only a few hundred feet of Vis.

There were some other frights including going IIMC in Rain while dropping water on an Ammo Bunker Storage Area Fire and winding up in the middle of a Monsoon Season Thunder Storm.

I survived....I went through some Guardian Angels who quit over not receiving Hazardous Duty Pay for their Duty Assignment.

Others of my Peers have not been so fortunate....I have attended far too many Funerals of Good Guys who were not as lucky.

[Hughes500]

Just to make life interesting for the ppl ( bearing in mind that a PPLH in EASA land has to demonstrate a 180 degree turn under " the hood" plus or minus 200 ft ) what would you suggest in this scenario. PPL Flying at 2000 ft agl in the cruise ppl looks down to check chart / change radio freq etc etc, looks up and is now IIMC as he has flown up into the layer of cloud does he
1. make a 180 degree turn ? This doesnt bring him out of the layer of cloud as he hasnt descended
2. Make a climb to avoid hitting anything and contact ATC for help ?
3. Make a shallow descent holding winds level with gentle fwd cylic as he knows he is 2000 ft of airspace under neath him ?
4. Makes a rapid descent using loads of collective down as per a normal descent ?
5. Do something else

Not meant to be a trick here just curious what you would advise a ppl to do

[Ascend Charlie]

There is no excuse for IIMC....ever.

Well, sometimes 5h1t just happens.

I was working on a massive bushfire in the Blue Mountains, when I was tasked to go from the south side of the fire to the north side. The only way in all that smoke was to follow the vertical sandstone cliffs (about 3500' here, tops in smoke) around the edges of the smoke-filled valley. I was sneaking along at about 40kt with very limited vis, using the cliffs outside my window for reference, when my windscreen was filled with a SeaKing doing the same thing in the opposite direction. He was marginally closer to the cliffs than I was, so the only thing to do was a snap turn to the left, out into the smoke. Dunno if he saw me or not.

Instant IMC. Onto the clocks, get power up to max, accelerate to 60kt and climb at the speed of stink, highest hill around 4000' but unknown position (before the days of moving maps.) All the smoke rising had turned into a big cumulus, so it was well over 6000' when I popped out into clear air.

Luckily I had a lot of instrument experience, and the aircraft was NVFR equipped, so I was relatively comfortable in the soup.

But I reckon that in this case, I had an excuse.

[[email protected]]

Hughes - for that particular situation, 2000'agl gives far more options than being at low level.

The 180 turn followed by a descent to not below 1000' agl would seem the logical solution - just depends on whether you are 2000 agl in a big valley with high ground either side of you!

As others have stated, there is no 'one-size-fits-all' solution as there are too many vaiables with the pilot experience, aircraft fit and actual conditions/terrain to consider.

Just make a plan, know your limits and stick to them.

[RVDT]

PPL Flying at 2000 ft agl in the cruise ppl looks down to check chart / change radio freq etc etc, looks up and is now IIMC as he has flown up into the layer of cloud

That would be the dumb bit. WTF was he doing hard up against the base? Obviously poorly trained. At least with a 2000' base he may be able to recover when he falls out of it upside down after about 45 seconds.

Fly halfway between the base and the surface - when the surface gets too close and you cant go back land on it and live.

The fallacy of giving a student 5 hours under the hood is delusional and I would like to meet the idiots that came up with that one. Never understood it.

Treat cloud/fog the same as rock because invariably that is what is inside it by the time you have got this far. Where is the procedure for doing 180 after you have hit a rock?

[jellycopter]

Hughes 500

Stick Back / lever up = inadvertent

Stick forward / lever down = outadvertent!

JJ

[VeeAny]

Anyone reading this thread would be wise to heed the advice of some of the more experienced folks on here, Jellycopter, Crab, Paco, SND,Sasless to name but a few.

Nothing I say here is in reference to the sad events in Yorkshire that cost a pilot his life, but in relation to the comments about IIMC flight.

IIMC kills, tried it once, nearly 20 years ago, did as I had been trained to do (180 degree turn) and it nearly killed me, Hughes500’s point about where it happens being the big issue, a 180 turn on instruments at low level trying to cross a ridge, nearly had me coming together with a 2-300ft tall antenna which I knew was there, but once in cloud didn’t know precisely where.....

You cannot crash into the rule book, you may get prosecuted for climbing, but even that is doubtful, it would be a brave person who would try to send that message to the aviation community (certainly in the UK).

ChopJock, I sometimes admire your ability to incite debate on the forum, but on occasion it is better to listen than offer under informed / experienced opinion, perhaps now is one of those times, who knows? Not a personal dig, take it for what it is.

As for the go down slow down concept once low level IMC , shortly after the very sad Brazilian wedding IMC video became public and lots of us had watched it, I became intrigued as to the bank angle and string combination very near the end. About two weeks later I put a good friend of mine in the sim (experienced VFR guy) and set up him for the same kind of scenario, I was amazed that his company had adopted a wings level, slow down go down approach to IIMC at low level, so I let it develop. Most of us steer with our feet at low speed, but for various sensible reasons attitude IF is taught at a reasonable rate of knots, feet being used for balance, once he got down below about 30kts it all fell apart very quickly and trying to stop a heading change with bank stopped working and we ended looking at the same picture in the Brazil video, heavily banked , no indicated airspeed , turning , not unexpectedly and not too soon after we hit the ground. Yes it’s just a sim, but the method did not work and we had no wires hedges, chimneys to contend with.

5 hours IF training in the PPL syllabus is often taught by instructors with no IF experience (been there done that, no disrespect meant), covering screens makes it more realistic, but its not like being in cloud, with the turbulence and often natural desire for the helicopter to climb.

Given a servicable helicopter that is the right way up, with servicable instruments, appropriate training and currency, yes low speed IF is possible, the UK military (so I am told) teach towering IF departures, and their method saved my skin once when I had windows freeze over at lowish level departing a well known and well surrounded helicopter landing site in Cornwall one clear winters morning, indeed had Jellycopter and I not discussed the technique some time the previous year I may well have made a smoking hole in the ground....

Good advice above about treating cloud like rock, simple and to the point.

If you are not qualified, current or you don’t have a helicopter certified for IFR flight, please for the sake of your loved ones STAY OUT OF CLOUD.

[whoknows idont]

I think it would be a good move to split this thread, for the sake of keeping it clean and also out of respect for the tragedy that triggered this discussion.

Reading this thread I kept getting flashbacks of the video of Mikhail Farikh covering up one instrument after the other in IMC in an R44. The guy that died in IMC CFIT in 2016, two years after posting that video.
One thought from my side: I'm suprised that nobody has yet mentioned things like EIR, CbIR and EASA vs FAA politics on SE-IFR.

[Vertical Freedom]

There is no such thing as 'inadvertent IMC' it is & always will be a choice the Pilot makes, albeit a criminal choice if He isn't IFR rated & current, machine IFR, a plan to enter IMC & go to LSA & a clear procedure (legal) to return to VMC :E After 3 decades of Rotory flying, mostly stooging around ****e weather in eXtreme mountains I've never been IMC. (& never will, not in a VFR machine) :8 Yep push it pretty hard for a Rescue, but always have an exit plan B & never loose visual......it's that simple :ooh:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h338/rotors99/rotors99009/78D7F300-8ECF-400C-B183-EBB82C6088F2.jpg

[SASless]

VF gets a Gold Star and moves to the front of the Class!

I bet he has found himself parked in the middle of no where....uncomfortable....but safely on the ground wondering what provoked him to make the decision that led to that situation.

[Viper 7]

Paco



To be pedantic the min IMC speed is 40kts with other limits as table below:-

IMC flight
The approved IMC envelope is shown at Figure 1
At least one lane of each autopilot channel must be operative.

Minimum airspeed 40 knots (IAS Hold engaged)
Minimum airspeed VY (normal operation)
Maximum airspeed VNE.

The only a/c I have flown that you could climb vertically IMC ( if within HOGE ) is the Seaking which had a doppler meter giving groundspeed in any direction up to 40kts. I only every used it once to climb IMC and that was in the Cairngorms (Scotland) where I had to do an IMC climb from amongst the mountains on a SAR callout. The idea was to fly at min IMC speed commensurate with keeping the doppler meter as near zero as possible, accelerating once past MSA.

I am sure that anybody who tried to hover IMC with no doppler meter would soon meet their maker!

HF

I also did one in the Sea King in the carribean once - an emergency freestream of our sonar ball up to 600 feet night IMC. I can't recall why we had to do it exactly, but it was probably a reeling machine failure with 600 feet of cable in the water...yuck.

We did practice it regularly though, so it wasn't anything spectacular. Great machine.

The best advice is above. Use the Mr. Miyagi method:

"Best defence, no be there!"

[miller745]

Anyone reading this thread would be wise to heed the advice of some of the more experienced folks on here, Jellycopter, Crab, Paco, SND,Sasless to name but a few.

I am reading with interest, being at the very beginning of flight training! I'd rather learn from previous events than to even think 'I can do it better than they did'...the outcome of that wouldn't be favourable for my existence.

[Vertical Freedom]

VF gets a Gold Star and moves to the front of the Class!

I bet he has found himself parked in the middle of no where....uncomfortable....but safely on the ground wondering what provoked him to make the decision that led to that situation.


Yippeee a Gold Star, thanks SASless :O 'twas always for pressure to Rescue a Blessed Soul in a Life threatening condition. Ironically I've never had a Rescue call-out in fine weather :{ & Yep I don't have enough fingers or toes to count how often I've parked up on an unscheduled stop-over, but I'm still here, that's the beauty of a Rotorcraft :8

[r22butters]

There is no such thing as 'inadvertent IMC' it is & always will be a choice the Pilot makes, albeit a criminal choice if He isn't IFR rated & current, machine IFR, a plan to enter IMC & go to LSA & a clear procedure (legal) to return to VMC :E After 3 decades of Rotory flying, mostly stooging around ****e weather in eXtreme mountains I've never been IMC. (& never will, not in a VFR machine) :8 Yep push it pretty hard for a Rescue, but always have an exit plan B & never loose visual......it's that simple :ooh:
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h338/rotors99/rotors99009/78D7F300-8ECF-400C-B183-EBB82C6088F2.jpg

Hmm, I think I'm actually going to agree with this one.

[EESDL]

Even for a trained IFR pilot the scan is pretty much AI, AI, AI, AI...... the first thing my QFI told me, part from where’s my wedding tea???

Savoia - as tragic as AJ’s accident was I can’t imagine he’d use any of that ‘fancy nonsense’ if it was fitted :-)

[r22butters]

nelly


I was taught never to enter the crap. But if I did I would be going slow and low enough to get back out of it in a slow, shallow decent.

Slowing down as the fog surrounds you, then suddenly the windscreen turns white. You try to keep it stable as the "navigator" next to you looking at his ipad tells you to head "that way a bit", but as you haven't been under the hood in ten years you struggle to keep the nose level.

Then the controls become sluggish and the aircraft begins to shake. Fortunately for your dumb a$$, just as the horn starts to blow, the ground begins to appear, not in front of you, but below, so you dump the collective and lower the nose,...again fortunate enough that you're in a valley so the ground is still slopping away from you giving you the room you need to recover!

Sure you could say that your "descent" got you out of IMC (though I wouldn't call VRS slow and shallow) but in reality it was just dumb a$$ luck you're still alive!

[4468]

Even for a trained IFR pilot the scan is pretty much AI, AI, AI, AI...
I guess you’ve never done UPs where the wings are level, but many other crazy things are occurring? High vertical speeds? High rates of yaw? LOW ROTOR RPM?? 😳

in a helicopter, and particularly at low forward speeds. Attitude is far from all you need to watch.

in a fixed wing, AIRSPEED (largely attitude!) is what keeps you alive. In a helicopter, airspeed (largely attitude!) is mostly irrelevant. It’s RRPM that keeps you alive! Never ever forget that!

Selective Radial Scan is the only mantra that will keep you alive when you have no visual reference! That’s why so many VFR pilots die within 3 minutes of entering cloud. Selective radial scan is extremely vulnerable to lack of sufficient recent practice!!

[MightyGem]

How long can the average VFR rated helicopter pilot keep an unstabilised helicopter upright in IMC without SAS or an autopilot?
For a fixed wing pilot, 178 seconds on average. For an unstabilised helicopter, less I would think.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/fai/local_more/alaskan_articles/media/178-Seconds_to_Live.pdf

[SASless]

Then if the poor Sod manages to regain control...then without being prepared or equipped to do so...there is that small issue of making an IFR/IMC transit and approach at some airfield...with not a lot of fuel, no approach plates, and a stress level that would be phenomenal even for a well trained fully able, current, and proficient IFR Pilot.

I flew single pilot on a Bell 412 with a nice Sperry System and that could be a hand full even with everything working and the IMC bit was planned for and filed prior to Takeoff.

Now make t hat IIMC in something like say a Jet Ranger, 350, or 500...with no SAS, Auto-pilot, perhaps not even an ILS capability.....oh my dear!

Add Darkness as a final factor.....and the work load really grows.

All that before things start going really wrong with equipment failures and the like.

Ever try to hold a D sized battery powered torch in your mouth to view the instrument panel?

It makes talking to ATC a bit garbled!

[4468]

Absolutely correct, and precisely why I wrote:
But the truth is, even if a ppl could fly a wings level, speed stable climb after IIMC, they very, very likely couldn’t manage an approach to a suitable airfield. Even if their aircraft was equipped for it! That’s the sad fact!
Of course the same may also be true of many CPL(H)

So don’t go up. Don’t go down. Just accept that if you don’t have the recent skills, the qualifications, the equipment, the icing clearance, the divs, the plates or the fuel. The moment you enter cloud, you will quite likely die within 178 secs. It’s that important never to enter cloud. So as I said, if you ever find yourself flying along in marginal weather. Scud running. The moment you feel that knot in your stomach, just put the thing on the ground while you still can! Because very shortly thereafter, you may lose that option!

[SASless]

That would be a very long couple of minutes....with damn poor quality of life in the last remaining bit of your Life.

Let's think back to a very nice A-109 that smacked into a Crane Jib in downtown London a few years back.

Then we might think of a Chinook up at the Mull of Kintyre.

Or...an Irish SAR 92.

Perhaps we can dredge up a couple of dozen US EMS crashes to leaven the mix and start thinking about this lack of vis and not knowing what is right in front of you thing.

It ain' just the newbie's that get bit by this snake.

Here is some light reading for you....three dead...night flight...EMS...marginal VFR at best....plenty of pressure to fly by Management.

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20041025X01691&ntsbno=MIA05FA008&akey=1

[gulliBell]

Being in cloud is not necessarily a 178 second lead time on a death sentence. You can survive even without an attitude reference, if you have a bearing pointer that can point at an (GPS or NDB derived) object in space in-front of you fly towards (or away from) it. Don't change the power, or make only very small adjustments in power, and make very small changes with cyclic. Watch the VSI/ASI, keeping it within a few knots or few hundred FPM of target (BROC speed is good). Granted, if your equipment has a suitable bearing pointer it probably also has an attitude reference. But in any event, it can be done without an AI. If the cloud isn't convective i.e. not turbulent, you can fly like that under complete control, without any gyroscopic instruments. However, and this is the key point, it's no reason to knowingly enter cloud thinking that you can actually do this, I'm talking about inadvertent entry here. The difficult part is safely getting out of the cloud. The way to do that with the best chance of surviving is over water, and descending. If you don't have water below you, you need a lot of luck on your side, a mental picture of the terrain, and obviously some ceiling at the bottom to get visual before hitting something.

This is obviously not something you're likely to pull off successfully without some exposure to IIMC training, which should happen during navigation training phase of the basic pilot course. And at each competency check. This is not theoretical preaching, it does actually work, in practice. It has happened to me, twice before. Through some freaky weather event that totally caught me out, that didn't afford me the turn around or land now options. 11,000' descent in cloud in a VFR 206L. Lucky for me I had some open ocean ahead of me, and a 100' of ceiling and good viz to play with at the bottom, and enough fuel to take my time about it.

[[email protected]]

The British Army have flown the unstabilised Gazelle single pilot in IMC for many years and continue to do so. It's not impossible but you need a good instrument pilot to keep it the right way up.

Without the training I suspect that 178 seconds is very optimistic.

So get trained or stay out of cloud.

[Ascend Charlie]

IIMC, for an untrained pilot, in an aircraft without an AI, is most likely a direct track to the crash site. Vertical.

Years ago I lost a young friend to this. The aircraft had been NVFR, with AI, HSI, ADF, turn needle etc, but the new owner, a non-flying doctor, took it all out to avoid having to service it. He needed to fly from his home to a city hospital. Normal pilot refused the job, left the scene. The junior pilot remaining was unexpectedly put in with a very demanding owner, who wanted to get to his appointments in a city hospital. Weather was helicopter VMC in places, but the cloudbase of 600' wasn't compatible with a pad at 500', surrounded by tall trees. Junior pilot tried several times to track up the valley to the pad, lots of turning around and around and looking for a gap, popped into a cloud, and emerged a few seconds later 90 nose down. Splat. Pressure from a non-flying owner, junior pilot, cockpit gradient too high for his experience levels.

You can always say "He should have refused the job, he should have not gone too close to the hill-filled clouds, he shooda...he shooda.."

[Thomas coupling]

Wow, this old chestnut has popped up again.
The feedback I'm getting though, is that us crusty old timers need to impart some of our wisdom, surely - if we are to make any impression on those up and coming helo pilots on here, who read all of this 'stuff'' but are afraid to chip in for fear of being mocked.
So , if I may, I would like to pass on my advice regarding a relatively common killer when flying helos - IIMC.
There's those who have been there and lived and there are those who have never experienced IIMC.
I am appealing to the latter (because the former have had that experience indelibly ingrained on their brain forever)

For those (NON IR or NON IMC rated pilots out there):

You must be wondering why all this scaremongering when it comes to flying into a little bit of water vapour, yes?
When you lose all external references in a helo, you have to employ a very different skill set. If this skill set has not been shown to you, or the skill set has not been practiced often, then you will not be capable of flying a helicopter in IMC with your existing (VFR) skill set for long because the two (VFR skill set and IMC flight) are incompatible.
For those who have never entered IMC, it is the rough equivalent of driving along a B road over the moors on a moonless night and at a reasonable speed (say 50 -60mph), with little or no ambient light and then your headlights lights go out and your brakes don't work.
{This is the closest analogy I can offer to a helo pilot who doesn't have a parallel experience to fall back on}

So: "assuming I have committed the cardinal sin by entering IIMC" what must I do to save my life (essentially)?
This is the difficult bit, because it might sound relatively straight forward but it is more than a technical guide, your emotions come into play and occasionally they can get the better of you. So you have to FOCUS like you've never focussed before. Physically and mentally. Do not let 'fear' control the helo.

The MAIN AI is your lifeline.
1. Wings level.(As soon and as smoothly as possible).
2. Nose on the horizon.
3. Select 2 to 3 degrees nose up.
4. Select best rate of climb speed for your helo.
5. Regain your composure.
6. Select 10 -15 degrees angle of bank (NO MORE). Attempt a 180 degree turn IF safe to do so (in an attempt to fly back into airspace which presumably might be more conducive to VFR).
7. IF you gain visual then recover visually to land or RTB. If you are still IMC - climb to your MSA for that area.
8. When safe to do so, communicate with anyone (local ATC / Drayton centre, anyone) - and ask for help. IE: Pan Pan x 3.

NOTES:
Use the HUB technique when flying on instruments: Starting with the main AI move out to other instruments but always come back to the main AI:
(a) Main AI (for say 5 seconds) - (wings level, ball in the middle).
Scan briefly out to
(b) ASI (for say 1-2 seconds) - (speed NEVER EVER below 60kts) 60-90 ideal.
Scan back to Main AI (for 5 seconds).
(c ) ALT (for 1 - 2 seconds) - Ensure you are still climbing or have achieved your MSA.
Scan back to Main AI (for 5 seconds).
(d) VSI (for 1-2 seconds) - Check level or climbing if needed at best angle of climb
Scan back to Main AI (for 5 seconds).
REPEAT THIS HUB SCAN WHILST IIMC

You will soon develop a slick and repetitive hub (or wheel) scan starting and ending at the MAIN AI.
ALL control movements must be smooth and gentle. NO excess demands in RoC or Speed.
Speeds below Vmin will cause disorientation as first the ball will slip and then height and speed will deteriorate.
Fly the dot (which is your aircraft) on the main AI bang on the horizon bar or very very slgihtly above the wings level position if you wish to climb.
DOT ON THE HORIZON. DOT ON THE HORIZON. DOT ON THE HORIZON. DOT ON THE HORIZON.
Don't let panic overcome you.

It sounds dramatic - it IS.
AND remember, you are in a helicopter, you can land anywhere at anytime BEFORE you go IIMC. You will never ever be ridiculed or break any rules if you LAND if this is the safest option. Your passengers (if accompanied) or your family (if solo) will be eternally grateful that they have met someone who knows their limits.

Final warning - very very few Non IMC rated or Non IR pilots will survive IIMC - it is almost certainly the death penalty. For those who retain their composure, there is a slither of luck that they might survive the ordeal to fly another day.
AT ALL COSTS - DO NOT PUT YOURSELF IN A POSITION WHERE YOU WILL INEVITABLY GO IIMC.

If just one newbie / ab initio / ppl(h)VFR pilot lives because they have heeded this posting - my entire 30 years of flying helos will have been worth it.
TC

[Hughes500]

TC

One for you, almost no one I have tested as recaged or pitch synced ( on an Aspen PFD )the AI before slowing down to do their 180 degree turn. Therefore the AI will give a false reading as to what is actually going

[SASless]

TC....if you had added "and then you run into a patch of dense fog and black ice...." to your analogy....it would be spot on!


For those who have never entered IMC, it is the rough equivalent of driving along a B road over the moors on a moonless night and at a reasonable speed (say 50 -60mph), with little or no ambient light and then your headlights lights go out and your brakes don't work.
{This is the closest analogy I can offer to a helo pilot who doesn't have a parallel experience to fall back on}



Gullibell.....I would accuse you of being an Accessory to Murder should it be determined a Dead Pilot used your advice on IIMC in a Helicopter without an Attitude Indicator as an excuse to find himself involved in an IIMC event.

Technically, perhaps you are correct but the reality is the odds of a newbie having the remotest chance of succeeding in that method is so remote as to be laughable you even suggest it here.

What you need to do is embrace the basic advice being given by the Old Pelicans...."If encountering weather below take off minimums....LAND!".

That one singular method absolutely guarantees survival by preventing an IIMC Event.

Your suggested method is the very last method I would endorse....as without an Attitude Indicator most pilots...even experienced pilots are not going to be able to control the Helicopter.

Example for you.

When assessing a Trainee's Instrument flying ability in the Bell 212/412 and S-76 Simulators, I used to carry out Unusual Attitude Recovery sessions on the first flight to determine what kind of Instrument Scan and Interpretation the Pilot had.

I did that by introducing the session in the same old tired way.... I will drive...you put your head down and shut your eyes...at some point I shall return the Control of the aircraft to you....you acknowledge you have the controls and return us to normal level flight.

Immediately upon the Pilot putting his Head down and closing his eyes....I would set his Attitude Indicator Five Degrees Wing Low to one side or the other.

Then, after a minute of Whoopsie Doodles....I would give him the Controls with the aircraft in a minor nose low or high-wing low attitude, yaw out of trim, and an altered power setting from cruise setting.

How many Pilots you reckon sorted out that their Attitude Indicator was giving bogus info....even in aircraft with Three Attitude Indicators to look at and compare?

A great many...way too many....never figured it out.

So you think not even having an AI...folks in IIMC are going to be able to fly an unstablized helicopter.

Your Bearing Pointer thing.....isn't that called a Mag Compass?

I am thinking your two experiences at this came in the Gulf of Mexico somewhere.

[ShyTorque]

I just checked my oldest RAF logbook (I'm now on logbook Volume 6). Having carried out approximately 40-45 hours total time on helicopters we (as those of us in the RAF's training system) began our instrument flying phase. This was in floppy stick (very floppy) Whirlwind 10 helicopters, so the basics were ingrained at a very early stage. I've held a helicopter instrument rating ever since, now some four decades or so. In the past I've operated a "floppy stick" police helicopter for public transport under IFR and properly IMC (now not allowed in UK), as well as far better equipped, SAR helicopters with full auto-hover, approach and auto-transition to climb modes.

I'd say that any unrated helicopter pilot finding himself in cloud will struggle to remember anything he was told or read about! Even those who have been properly trained need to bear in mind that instrument flying is a very perishable skill - me too!

Even though I now fly a single pilot IFR machine, with a fairly capable autopilot, and routinely fly VFR- IFR- VFR (or remain IFR to land), I do take care to remind myself of that fact.

[SASless]

Shy,

How does the work level and stress level change when your Electronic Co-Pilot decides to go on strike mid-flight and you have to hand pole the old girl?

Ever happen AND you get a change of route, a wind shift alters your planned approach, etc?

Ever simply drop your Pencil just as you are being given a new clearance and it safely lands down in the chin bubble?

Every have the Approach Plate Book fall from your fumbling fingers and land again...safely in the Chin Bubble?

Single Pilot IFR can get interesting

[212man]

Wow, this old chestnut has popped up again.

I'm just waiting for the 'Vortex Ring State' and "Height Velocity curve' threads to start up........

[OvertHawk]

I'm just waiting for the 'Vortex Ring State' and "Height Velocity curve' threads to start up........


I'm waiting for Chopjock to suggest Vortext Ring as his preferred safe method for exiting IIMC :E

[chopjock]

I'm waiting for Chopjock to suggest Vortext Ring as his preferred safe method for exiting IIMC :E

LOL well the rotor is more stable in autorotation...:\ (Less likely to tumble).

[SASless]

In the early days of Air Mail flying in the USA...and for the Luftwaffe during the latter part of the Second World War....Fixed Wing Pilots were taught to "spin" their aircraft down to VMC conditions.

That must have been a thrill ride!

[Self loading bear]

I'm waiting for Chopjock to suggest Vortext Ring as his preferred safe method for exiting IIMC :E

I learned from previous threads that it is much safer to fly IIMC in a helicopter with two engines!

Cheers SLB

[MightyGem]

I would set his Attitude Indicator Five Degrees Wing Low to one side or the other.
I used to do both AIs, leaving them power setting, ASI, compass and VSI/Altimeter to sort themselves out. :E :E

[ShyTorque]

Shy,

How does the work level and stress level change when your Electronic Co-Pilot decides to go on strike mid-flight and you have to hand pole the old girl?

Ever happen AND you get a change of route, a wind shift alters your planned approach, etc?

Ever simply drop your Pencil just as you are being given a new clearance and it safely lands down in the chin bubble?

Every have the Approach Plate Book fall from your fumbling fingers and land again...safely in the Chin Bubble?

Single Pilot IFR can get interesting

You mean along with the (hopefully) spurious engine or gearbox chip lights coming on over the hills because it's raining again? Yes, it can. But I have a plan... never use a pencil in case the lead breaks.

[SASless]

One we determined they were flying the AI and not all the instruments....we covered up all the AI's and went Instrument flying.

In my US Army Instrument Rating course...we wound doing a fixed card NDB approach in a UH-1 Huey....with No Gyro's. Mag Compass and Bearing Pointer....after doing a Hold.

That was rather entertaining.....and sure cure for boredom.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

I learned from previous threads that it is much safer to fly IIMC in a helicopter with two engines!

Cheers SLB

Go careful with that theory, there are plenty of twin engine, floppy stick, VFR only helicopters out there, flown by VFR only pilots. a multitude of engines helps you feel safe, all the IFR kit and a qualified pilot should make you nice and warm and fuzzy.

SND

[Thomas coupling]

SelfloadingBear: Are you for real?
WTF does the number of engines have to do with IIMC?

[SASless]

We have been told over and over how unsafe two engines are vice a single....remember!

SLB is referring to a Forum Expert on such matters I believe!

[Thomas coupling]

Many years ago in the military, I did a tour on the SeaKing simulator for my sins (between jobs). I was teaching a weeks worth of sorties for the FGN (German seaking pilots).
I distinclty recall watching them man up prior to start and the Captain hooked his dog tags over the E3C compass binnacle protruding from the centre screen above their heads.
I asked why?
He told me this story:
Several years earlier, the same two guys were doing an IF training mission near their base and were around 7000' in complete IMC.
They were old hands and knew the seaking inside out including its handling characteristics.
They were hit by lightning and lost ALL electrics. The only 'flying' instrument they had going for them was the standby AI which ran off the battery bus.They also lost auto pilot.
Their crash cards stated that flying off battery only - gave you around 20 minutes max before everything failed (electrically).
They immediately began a controlled descent to VMC - no instruments (except standby AI) and no radios.
During their descent, they lost the battery - so now they had NO electronic instruments, no radio AND no intercom.
Flying any a/c without any AI is nigh on impossible.
So the pilot took his dog tags off and hung them from the compass binnacle and used the "cup in bowl" compass as a very rough AI (spirit level) and used the dog tags as a fine tune AI.
If the tags leant right they would compensate and so on.
It meant they didn't exceed Vmax, or Vmin and they didn't exceed AoB and stayed relatively 'upright' until they broke cloud and landed.
How's that for improvisation!

IIMC

[MarcK]

How's that for improvisation!
Pretty stupid, IMHO:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9pvG_ZSnCc

[SASless]

Get it out of trim....and less than one "G" and see what happens!

[[email protected]]

It was a Sea King remember - it loves to be flown like that:)

[212man]

Get it out of trim....and less than one "G" and see what happens!
or more than one g and you are always upright!

[RVDT]

or more than one g and you are always upright! or in a spiral dive? :D

[SASless]

In the meanwhile the Altimeter, VSI,Airspeed, and Compass indications are what....???

As one poster said of the Dog Tag concept....pure bunk...really?

Absent the Dog Tags....I knew that as "Partial Panel" or as some would call it...."Emergency Panel".

[RVDT]

In the meanwhile the Altimeter, VSI,Airspeed, and Compass indications are what....???

If you are not trained in instrument flight? All lies !!

[SASless]

You might be lying to yourself...but the instruments are just set there doing their job.

[ShyTorque]

They'd have been better off with a cat and a duck.... (old story warning)

[LRP]

They'd have been better off with a cat and a duck.... (old story warning)

Just make sure you have a clean cat. I'm told the very first Lomcovak was performed by a pilot attempting to fly IMC with a dirty cat.

[Scardy]

If I may,
Having instructed new pilots to gain a CPL license i always commented to the TC office that the hood time was ludicrous!
With 30 plus years behind me and after 12 VFR and 18 plus IFR I quiver when I read about Indaverent IMC. Brrrr
Been in the sh×t a couple times at night over the chuk (same as IMC) when someting went sideways with the AP. Fortunately some hard leatned lessons and a good guy next to me we kept it together and calm.
The chances are not slim to none if you survive inadvertent ... there is no chance. Before you hit something hard the airframe is probably go to tear itself to pieces anyway ..... stress from your overcontrolling (stop to stop quickly).
I had a IR rating for many years before actually "using it" in a controlled two crew enviroment. During a long haul over water flight i pushed it a little to far and ALMOST got stuck between layers.... by gods grace when i looked over my shoulder i saw horizon. Scard - you have no idea - i was driving a IF equip ac but it had no stab. I surived for one reason....luck!
i have lost to many friends to whiteout over ice and snow when they were not actually IMC do to the fact they may have forgotten how too scan. Two were students of mine. I live with that.
just a sidenote... before the aircraft comes apart you will more then likely have come apart yourself shock caused by fear, muscle constrintion and irrational thought process will get you!
short story.... go IMC with no training... you have 32 seconds to say goodbye!

[John Eacott]

Many years ago in the military, I did a tour on the SeaKing simulator for my sins (between jobs). I was teaching a weeks worth of sorties for the FGN (German seaking pilots).
I distinclty recall watching them man up prior to start and the Captain hooked his dog tags over the E3C compass binnacle protruding from the centre screen above their heads.



Hopefully non-magnetic dogtags?


Nerd question of the month: what's the difference between the E3B and E3C compass ;)

[SASless]

what's the difference between the E3B and E3C


British CAA licensed were you?

[John Eacott]

It's a US military part designation, SASless ;)

[SASless]

Confusing a Compass and a four engine Boeing is hard to do...even for an Army Helicopter pilot.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Confusing a Compass and a four engine Boeing is hard to do...even for an Army Helicopter pilot.

I know one or two Air Force pilots who might struggle with that difference.

SND

[ShyTorque]

So the pilot took his dog tags off and hung them from the compass binnacle and used the "cup in bowl" compass as a very rough AI (spirit level) and used the dog tags as a fine tune AI.
If the tags leant right they would compensate and so on.
It meant they didn't exceed Vmax, or Vmin and they didn't exceed AoB and stayed relatively 'upright' until they broke cloud and landed.
How's that for improvisation!

It would work in the simulator, yes as a spirit level, but not as an AI in the real aircraft. A simulator is fixed to the floor and can't sustain any "G" so the dog tags would always point to the earth.