Do companies legally have to pay you for "ICUS/Training" flights

[QJB]

Hi there,

I have been looking through the award but am still not sure. If you are offered employment at a general aviation company as a pilot are they legally obligated to pay for the time you fly with the CP/check pilot in order to build up type hours for insurance/training purposes i.e. the time before you are checked to line? or are they entitled to call this "training" and not pay you for it?


QJB

[GedStreet]

Hi QJB,

There are a few legal variables here. CASA told me that when I was a Chief Pilot that unless I was operarting within a CAR 217 organisation, or had a specific CASA training dispensation, or I was a flight instructor (which I was and am) AND operated under a flight school AOC which would require the CP to have been check flown by that AOC holders CFI, I must not, and I quote, "conduct any activity that looks even remotely like flight training".

That, under the letter of the law, means a standard CP can only conduct "Standardisation and Proficency Checks" and those checks can only be for employees. So from a legal point of view, I think, seeing as you must be an employee - you should be paid.

Good luck!

Ged.

[QJB]

Thanks Ged,

Always good to get a clear answer as the first response!

Cheers,

QJB

[Checkboard]

By definition, ICUS isn't training.

[GedStreet]

Correct!

You must be fully qualified to perform the task in order to conduct an ICUS flight and if you look under the definitions of logging of flight time there are very few opportunities to legally log ICUS. It is my oppinion that the term ICUS is frequently used innappropriately in charter organisations.

[Bladeangle]

Are you actually employed by the operator yet? Or are you offering your time in the hope of being base checked and then being offered employment?

Its a sad state of affairs in GA. (And I dont for a second agree with how some operators treat their guys) But I do see ICUS as a mutual opportunity, for both operator and pilot. If your a muppet, they will let you go no strings attached, if your good you will get a job out of it.

We all know if you start jumping up and down about getting paid for icus, there are a half a dozen guys behind you willing to do it for nothing. You lose out.

Airlines do it in a round about way, they will throw you in the sim during the interview process to see if you can cut the mustard, and do you get paid for that?

[deadcut]

What about the legality of being a casual pilot, and then if you start stirring the pot about them not paying the award? The company just lets you go?

Since you are a casual employee what support do you have in that situation?

Sorry for the drift. Don't want to start another thread

[megle2]

And if you slip off the step leaving the aircraft and sustain an injury do you get Workers Comp?

[601]

ICUS and Training are not the same thing.

ICUS can be conducted by a pilot who is the holder of a CPL endorsed on the aircraft and has the applicable ratings for the particular flight. The ICUS pilot must have the same qualifications and the ICUS must be approved by the CP.

Except for conversion training, training within the AOC would have to be completed by a pilot approved under a CAR 217 approval. Conversion training that can be conducted by a pilot who is approved by CASA for the purpose. A private pilot can be approved to give conversion training.

As for payment, I guess you should look at the GA Award or if the Company has ab Industry Agreement, that agreement.

[Horatio Leafblower]

What about the legality of being a casual pilot, and then if you start stirring the pot about them not paying the award? The company just lets you go?

If you are employed, you are entitled to the award conditions as a minimum. It is easy to prove that you were in a master/servant relationship and if you were not paid the minimum amount there are several agencies who will extract it from your employer.

This is dfferent from the conditions around ICUS.

ICUS is a construct from Aviation legislation. It does not have a direct connection to the terms of your employment or the amount that you are getting paid. To log ICUS there is no direct legal requirement that you are being paid anything at all, although some inferences could probably be drawn by a good lawyer.

There is one other concept that must be introduced: the principle of Freedom of contract.

Essentially, you can form a contract with anyone to do anything for as much or as little as you like. The Law will not determine for you what is or is not a good bargain and the law will not intervene to correct your bad decisions. There are certain limitations and exceptions of course; for example, contracts for the exchange of real property must be in writing and contracts for employment must meet certain minimum conditions.

The normal circumstances surrounding the logging of ICUS are obvious: a period of supervised aircraft operation by a fully qualified pilot to ensure an adequate level of safety and understading of company operations. The supervision is provided by a company-appointed experienced pilot within the same organisation whose role is to ensure adherence to company SOPs.

ICUS is defined in CAR 5.01 thus: For the purposes of this Part, a person flies an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision if, during flight time in the aircraft, the person performs the duties and functions of the pilot in command while under the supervision of the pilot in command approved for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft.

So conditions for ICUS are:
(1)Performs the duties and functions of the pilot in command: the person is endorsed on type, holds the required experience on type for the class of operation, has all applicable ratings (night, IFR) and they are all current, holds a DG certificate if required, has CAO 20.11 certification, DAMP checks, company inductions etc

(2) ...while under the supervision of the pilot in command approved for the purpose... : self-explanatory

(3) ...by the operator of the aircraft: not necessarily a commercial operator though this is implied; approval from CASA to perform this function is not even hinted at.

An arrangement to conduct/receive ICUS is not automatically a contract for employment. It is a contract for one party to provide a service (supervision) in return for sufficient consideration.

As an AOC holder, to properly conduct ICUS you need to make a significant investment in the candidate. They need to be inducted, trained, and tested to the same criteria as any other pilot in your organisation making (in my view) the practice of "selling" ICUS a pretty shady activity.

None the less, done properly, I believe it can be legitimate AND it can be donw without a contract of employment, real or implied, between the operator and the ICUS-ee.

I just don't know why an operator would bother if the candidate is not someone they intend to keep :uhoh:

[The Kelpie]

Here's a different slant on the issue.

Let's say the operator after facilitating ICUS offers you a job, and given that you have already received induction etc to the normal employed pilot standards you do not require any further induction.

Is the ICUS now in fact training??

The Air Pilots Award (common for most GA operators) states:

16.5 Where employment commences under this award the pilot's service required to be undertaken by the prospective employer, prior to commencing employment, during training period will be recognised and any training required to be conducted at the employee's cost will be reimbursed to the pilot.

Discuss.

[deadcut]

If you are employed, you are entitled to the award conditions as a minimum. It is easy to prove that you were in a master/servant relationship and if you were not paid the minimum amount there are several agencies who will extract it from your employer.

Ok so I got to FWA and say I'm being under paid or not paid for ICUS etc. After an investigation FWA rules in my favor and I get some cash reimbursed.

The next day the operator tells me to piss off and I'm out of a job.

[SgtBundy]

The next day the operator tells me to piss off and I'm out of a job.

And the next day you go back to FWA citing unfair dismissal and the employer gets cleaned out. Its not to say its going to be sunshine and unicorns if you go back to such an employer after getting a judgement against them. The wise thing would be to go your separate ways but they would be moronic to flat out dismiss you after being proven wrong in front of FWA.

But isn't that the whole point of the award? You can point out the minimum legal standard you are entitled to and demand that if you are not getting it. If you are not getting that, and you can't sort it out one on one, then its probably not somewhere worth staying. They deserve getting smacked over the knuckles.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Given that the award is absolutely f*ck all, I am surprised that anyone would accept anything less. Given that the award is, in effect, the law, I am also surprised that any employer would put themselves in the position where they are going to get smashed.

Ok so I got to FWA and say I'm being under paid or not paid for ICUS ...
The next day the operator tells me to piss off and I'm out of a job.

There are provisions in the Fair Work Act specifically against this conduct by an employer, with penalties of up to $33k for organisations and $5000 for indivduals.

These provisions apply even if you have demanded an entitlement to which you are not, in fact, entitled. :ouch:

Is the ICUS now in fact training??

The Air Pilots Award (common for most GA operators) states:

16.5 Where employment commences under this award [snip]... any training required to be conducted at the employee's cost will be reimbursed to the pilot.

It's in the award, it's law, and I'm not sure there is much discussion required. The Chief Pilot should be making a strong case to the owner to ensure the pilots are paid what they are entitled to (minimum) if only to protect the owner from legal liability.

I might be naive but good pilots are worth much more than $47k + allowances.