Pilotless aircraft

[tchanhk]

Just been reading this article on Economist, the topic is about unmanned aircraft.

pick a little section below which i felt is quite interesting...like to see what people think...are we soon heading to unmanned aircraft?


"Commercial flights carrying freight and express parcels might one day also lose their on-board pilots. But would even the most penny-pinching cut-price airline be able to sell tickets to passengers on flights that have an empty cockpit? More realistically, those flights might have just one pilot in the future. Technology has already relieved the flight deck of a number of jobs. Many early large aircraft had a crew of five: two pilots, a flight engineer, a navigator and a radio operator. First the radio operator went, then the navigator, and by the time the jet era was well under way in the 1970s flight engineers began to disappear too. Next it could be the co-pilot, replaced by the autonomous flight systems now being developed."


Pilotless aircraft: This is your ground pilot speaking | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21567053-autonomous-civil-aircraft-could-be-flying-cars-go-driverless-your)

[flyboy7]

It is possible and will happen, but fortunately not in my lifetime.

[Hydromet]

As the old joke goes:"...this is a recorded message. We repeat that this is a completely automatic aircraft, and nothing can possibly go wrong, click, go wrong, click, go wrong..."

[PLovett]

It is possible and will happen, but fortunately not in my lifetime.

Then your lifetime may be shorter than you think.

Autonomous Flight Trials (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/astraea_flight_test_UK_pilot_autonomous_207746-1.html)

That is the start of some serious research into the whole issue and the pace of development will only get faster.

[DaveReidUK]

Your linked article says pretty much the same as the Economist quote in the original post:

"While passenger flights may not lose their pilots for some time, researchers currently believe commercial cargo flights may lose them sooner if the technology proves reliable and safe through similar tests and smaller-scale real-world application. For passenger flights, researchers believe it is more likely that such autonomous systems will first serve as a backup for a live pilot flying in the aircraft."

I would agree with the OP - it will be many, many years before George is alone on the flight deck in front of a cabin full of live passengers.

[RVF750]

The reason we are still there is simples. Who would they blame for the crash otherwise?

Can you imagine a row of shiny autojets sat there after one crashes....er climb aboard ladies and gents, these have new update software, honest...

Yea right.

O'Leary would have them in a flash though.

[The SSK]

This topic will be discussed ad infinitum on PPRuNe.

Shortly after which, pilotless airliners will become a reality.

[Guglielmo]

Back in the seventies there were suggestions that the two man cockpit would be reduced to one man, and in the right hand seat a dog.
What is the dog there for??
To ensure that the pilot doesn't touch anything.
Maybe it wasn't a joke?

[Basil]

Any suggestion that 'Hey! Let's just do it with freighters!' ain't going to go down terribly well with those living under the approach.
Last time an autopilot dropped out on me I was on a Cat 3 into Frankfurt.
The fog bank was, by now, halfway down the runway so, rather that start all the paddling in stuff, I just continued for a manual landing - sorted!
Let's see Mr Automatic do that :)

[Huck]

This has been done to death here.

Can't we just dredge up the old threads?

[EEngr]

Q: What weighs nothing, but when loaded onto an airplane keeps it from taking off?

A: Software.

:uhoh:

[Saint-Ex]

Yes I brought it up last month. To me the biggest problem is security of control. The Iranians have already tntercepted the USAF`s most advanced drone. The possibility of seizing control of a 500 passenger jet doesn`t bear even thi8nking about.

[Carbon Bootprint]

Back in the seventies there were suggestions that the two man cockpit would be reduced to one man, and in the right hand seat a dog.
What is the dog there for??
To ensure that the pilot doesn't touch anything.

And the only reason the pilot is there is to feed the dog...:ouch:

[jcjeant]

Hi,

This company is on the path from longtime ....
Experience: Systems Engineering: KinetX (http://www.kinetx.com/services.aspx?p=sysExp)

[fireflybob]

O'Leary would have them in a flash though.

Be even better though if we could have the CEO's job done by automation - might save us all from MOL's abusive attacks on his customers and his staff.

[ulxima]

even better though if we could have the CEO's job done by automation - might save us all from MOL's abusive attacks on his customers and his staff.


all depends on how the automation is being programmed :E

[The SSK]

To me the biggest problem is security of control

No, the biggest problem, and the one that will kill it stone dead, is money. Who is going to pay the billions and squillions it would take to get a pilotless airliner certified?

The airlines? No, they never asked for one
Boeing/Airbus? No, they don't have customers lined up and their regular buyers would crucify them if they thought they were funding blue sky research like this and passing the costs on to their bread-and-butter products.

Governments? Come off it, they want UAVs to do their dirty work, end of story.

At the end of the day, who wants pilotless airliners, and why? There are only two conceivable reasons, safety and economics. The safety case will never be proved, and the economics (fuel more expensive = crew relatively less so) will never overcome passenger resistance.

Not in my lifetime of the one after, anyway. maybe when the Chinese take over the world they will do it ther way, money no object, anything is possible

[Basil]

ExSp33db1rd - Post your story about the Dead Man's Handle :)

[Landroger]

This topic will be discussed ad infinitum on PPRuNe.

Shortly after which, pilotless airliners will become a reality.

Phew! That's good then. :) If it is actually discussed ad infinitum and then becomes reality, we are safe from Unmanned aeroplanes forever - ad infinitum indeed. :ok:

Roger.

[DownIn3Green]

This Thread is just PLAIN STUPID!!!

[Green Guard]

the way how today most glass cockpit pilots use their piloting technique, (not only in Air France), nothing dramatic would change initially.
However after ....when accidents and incidents are compared many of us may become very much surprised to find out what is more safe.

:cool:

[Taras B]

Embraer reveals vision for single-pilot airliners (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/embraer-reveals-vision-for-single-pilot-airliners-343348/)

The lonely airline pilot - Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2010/06/the-lonely-airline-pilot.html)

[Huck]

I'll post what I've posted on these threads for over ten years here.

When the freight trains start going by my house with less than a three-man crew I'll start worrying.....

[BerksFlyer]

From the article Taras B posted:

Allowing single-crew operation of airliners would provide substantial savings for airlines and help to alleviate forecast pilot shortages once the industry returns to sustained growth.


I've always had a feeling this line of reasoning would be used to justify the evolution to single pilot operations. If this shortage ever comes to fruition, which it never has, then why wouldn't the first option be to improve accessibility to training and improve entry level packages.

[bubbers44]

Since no passenger will step into an airplane with no pilots flying I don't think we have a problem. What do you think?

[parabellum]

As has been said here many, many times before, notwithstanding passengers being dead against it, it is security that will stop it from happening. A bunch of dedicated suicidal terrorist could take over a ground control unit, possibly but not necessarily, in a country where security may not be as tight as in others or they may just get them selves their own ground control unit that can block the signals from the genuine ground unit, either way mayhem and blood shed will ensue and no further passengers will board a pilotless aircraft. It simply won't happen.

[Airbubba]

I'll post what I've posted on these threads for over ten years here.

When the freight trains start going by my house with less than a three-man crew I'll start worrying.....

The freight trains that go by most people's houses in the U.S. now have less than a three man crew these days in case you didn't know...

Most freight trains on most railroads today have a crew of two: one conductor and one engineer.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conductor_(transportation)

Don't worry son, the union will take care of you... :)

[11Fan]

When the freight trains start going by my house with less than a three-man crew I'll start worrying.....

Or the rare one that has no crew at all.

CSX 8888 incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSX_8888_incident)

Basis for the movie Unstoppable.

Unstoppable (2010) - IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0477080/)

Decent flick, but they took some license..... OK, quite a bit.

[megle2]

If I take a position operating one of these which column do I need to use to log the details in my logbook

[SEIFR]

I remember when some old timers told me (i was just getting started as a pilot) there was no way we could go without the 3rd pilot.:cool:

[Lyman]

No Stick, No screens, no Yoke. Flight marshals with deadly force.

Boeing. Take some getting used to....

[etrang]

Since no passenger will step into an airplane with no pilots flying I don't think we have a problem

How many accidents have been caused by pilot error and how many by software error? Fortunately pax don't read the accident rreports.

[lplsprog]

With all the security these days most pax never see a pilot, so how would they know if one is not there?:}

[Ploz]

As its topical and soon, you might be interested in this:

http://www.raeng.org.uk/events/pdf/lret_flyer_2012.pdf

[funfly]

A few years ago when I was flying GA, there were loads of threads on here about the fact that GPS navigation could never catch on and should never be relied on.
Can you believe we used to go flying with a whizz-wheel clutched in our clammy hands together with a chart measuring 1m x 1m. on which we had made marks with china-graph pencils. The Pooley's book with the airfield data was also kept somewhere handy. We actually used all this stuff for primary navigation.
"dont ever use a GPS unit while flying, they are bound to fail and then what will you do?"

[Dusthog]

So only one pilot in the future?! He must come directly from flight school since there are no copilots anymore.

[grounded27]

It is getting to the point now that a controller sends the aircraft a message and the pilot has hot keys to reject, cancel or accept. Talk is cheap, 100001001001001000100 will be the only form of communication in aviation in the near future.

[D84178]

No, the biggest problem, and the one that will kill it stone dead, is money. Who is going to pay the billions and squillions it would take to get a pilotless airliner certified?

The airlines? No, they never asked for one
Boeing/Airbus? No, they don't have customers lined up and their regular buyers would crucify them if they thought they were funding blue sky research like this and passing the costs on to their bread-and-butter products.

Fedex for a start.


FedEx founder Fred Smith came by the Wired offices yesterday for a chat on a range of things, but I'll focus here on the bit relevant to this site. He says that they'd like to switch their fleet to UAVs as soon as possible but that this will have to wait for the FAA, which has a tough road ahead in figuring out the rules of NAS integration. Unmanned cargo freighters have lots of advantages for FedEx: safer, cheaper, and much larger capacity. The ideal form is the "blended wing" (example shown). That design doesn't make a clear a distinction between wings and body, so almost all the interior of both can be used for cargo. The result is that the price premium for air over sea would fall from 10x to 2X (with all the speed advantages of air).

As he notes, a modern 777 is already capable of being an unmanned vehicle. "They let the pilots touch the controls for about 20 seconds, to advance the throttles, and then the plane takes over," he said, only half-kidding. The truth is that the plane can take off, fly and land itself. Today pilots drive the planes on the ground, but there's no reason why the computer can't do that, too. Sully's a hero, but Smith's perspective is that humans in the cockpit make the airways more dangerous, not less.

Because the FAA rules are not in place, nobody's built that perfect blended wing UAV for FedEx yet. But Smith believes it's only a matter of time. As he notes, the key thing is having NO people on board, not even as backup. A single person in the craft requires a completely different design, along with radically different economics and logistics. The efficiencies come with 100% robotic operation.



Fred Smith: FedEx wants UAVs - DIY Drones (http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/fred-smith-fedex-wants-uavs)


Considering the new ATC coming in, and all the research going into UAF and IA, it seems very plausible to see FedEx drones flying over our heads in let's say 20 years top.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Huck et al,

Your worries start now....

Rio Tinto Iron Ore - Rail (http://www.riotintoironore.com/ENG/operations/497_rail.asp)

Note the comment in the 'train profile'.....

"Each train is operated by a single driver, and comprises up to 234 ore cars, each ore car with a load capacity of approximately 112 tonnes. A fully loaded train weighs approximately 31,000 tonnes and is about 2.4 kilometres in length."

AS the Flight Engineers, and the Navigators before them said.....
'They'll never get rid of us'.....

p.s. I for one, hope that 'they' don't...

Cheers:}

[deptrai]

AS the Flight Engineers, and the Navigators before them said.....
'They'll never get rid of us'.....

Just as a curiosity - Pan Am Clippers (Boeing 314 "Flying Boats") in the early days had a radio officer, a navigator (at the 7 foot chart table in the picture below), an engineer, a 1st and a 2nd officer at the flight controls, and finally the captain who was free to "roam" the flight deck, overseeing everything. The captain's position was the first to be made redundant, replaced by what was formerly the 1st officer (now captain).

http://ameliaearhartcontroversy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/PanAm-Clipper-Flight-Deck1.jpg

[grounded27]

This Thread is just PLAIN STUPID!!!

Says the man who is about to or has already retired. Just do your best to talk your grand children out of becoming career pilots.