Dissapointed with CFI

[ParsonsKHWV]

Hello,

I am a High School student who also travels half way throughout the school day to a Flight Academy with three other students from my High School. The actual Flight Academy is just a Ground School that goes over fundamentals, navigation, weather and everything that needs to be covered for the FAA written.

My Flight Academy sends groups across the street to the FBO for flight lessons. There are first and second year groups that go (two year program, I am a first year) the FBO across the parking lot, the CFIs and Aircraft are provided by the FBO.

I went on my first flight with a CFI that usually does not teach for students that come from our academy, I guess he does lessons with Student Pilots that aren't affiliated with my Academy. So as I was saying, I went on my first flight with him, heres the bad part. He was a slick guy, heintended he did a pre flight earlier this morning (it was about 12:30 PM), okay, I was thinking straight and proceeded to enter the plane. He then taxied to the runway without teaching me how, he took off by himself, he did banking by himself, he landed by himself, the only thing I had learned that day was how to fly straight :(.

I have been an observer in aircraft twice since the beginning of the school year (there is always two other student pilots from the academy that ride in the back watching for traffic) while I was an observer those two times, I learned how to pre flight, the student pilot in command learned how to bank, land and take off. When observing in the back seat bith times was with the regular first year instructor.

Have I been cheated? disrespected? I will be reporting this guy to my Academy and the FBO.

This whole situation has made me very dissapointed and so sad to think that I have been cheated blindly.

Please reply with your feelings about this situation.

[joseph500s]

Maybe you should tell your mum what happened?Failing that why not just ask the CFI why he didn't let you do it all? Instead of instantly assuming you have been treated unfair by him and reporting him. Every instructor has a different way of teaching. If he let you do a turn and landyou would probably be complaining why he didn't let you do some other flight maneuvers that a student has been observed doing in the past.

Best you talk to him about it :ok:

[zondaracer]

Talk to your instructor directly. Failing that, ask the school to assign you a different instructor, but seriously you should talk to the instructor first. I'm sure that if you did something that the instructor didn't like, he wouldn't go and "report" you to the head of the FBO, but would rather talk to you about it first.

[tonker]

If he flew it to expedite the flight to get to your part of the lesson, I'd get it. But and without overloading a student, you should be hands on at every component part of the lesson. Taxiing included.

For what it's worth as a 737 Captain, I still see this behaviour even now, when it comes to letting the F/O brake on landing to a taxi speed as per SOP's. My bugbear with this is that F/O will never learn to use the brakes if the Captain keeps taking control at say 80 knots. Same thing, just bigger:cool:

[mad_jock]

Actually if its your first lesson effects of controls or ex3 flight experence its not part of the learning points for you to fly the whole thing.

The instructor should though have been constantly talking through what they were doing though.

Its infact a problem with some instructors that they do just let the students go for it in a none structured way then put them into the circuit without the foundations being taught properly.

Book one of most ppl theory courses has long briefs for all the lessons its up to you to read them before the lesson so you get the maximum out of them.

We don't know whats in your training records it could be that you have been signed off for the preflight.

Saying that though it could be that the instructor has just had you dumped on them at the very last moment and you haven't had value for money. I presume at the school you will have a member of staff who looks after the course. Go and have a chat with them.

[Shytehawk]

ParsonsKHWV.

A sixteen your old on your first instructional flight and you suggest that you might have been disrespected (if there is such a word in the English language). Were you expecting the instructor to sit back, watch you do it all and then for him to remark what a born, natural pilot he had just had the privilege to observe?

[mad_jock]

It not worth it shyte.

It seems to be a big issue for youngsters these days this respect thing. Just seems to be the latest excuse for unprovoked violence and a diversion in dissagreements when someone is blatantly in the wrong.

The youth of today is never wrong its always someone elses fault.

[Juliette Alpha]

I really think you should talk to him before you 'report him'. Maybe the time of your lesson was restricted and therefore he did the pre-flight before. Also have you maybe thought that you didn't do very well when you were learning how to fly straight? And this was why he didn't want you to fly any more? Maybe he wanted to ease you into flying more complicated maneuveres. I think you're putting all the blame on the instructor when maybe you should be think about what you could do better. If you talk to him and he doesnt say there is anything wrong with your flying but still doesn't improve and let you do more complicated things then maybe you should talk to someone about it.

[B2N2]

It certainly appears the OP is not a native english speaker.

This whole situation has made me very dissapointed and so sad to think that I have been cheated blindly.


This almost reads like its been done with Google translator or Babel fish.
If the OP is a foreign student there might be some cultural issues as far as the "respect" thing goes.
We don't have nearly enough information here;
Did the lesson start late hence no teaching of the preflight which can easily take 30-45 minutes?

student pilot in command

Doesn't exist under FAA and supposedly you are training at Brookhaven airport? KHWV?

Me tinks dis here issa windup ora troll.....

http://antbag.com/images/troll_spray.jpg

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

MadJock is quite correct.

If this was your first lesson you start with the basics. You have to be careful with students. Overloading them with information on their first lesson is not the objective. There is no point teaching someone to land on lesson one when they have not learnt, effects of controls, straight and level, climbing and descending, turning, stalling etc. All it will do is overload the student and dent their confidence.

From an instructor point of view he should have briefed this. This is what I used to do with my students. It's all about development of your skills in a structured and manageable method. To reach your goals.

[giggitygiggity]

For what its worth...

I trained at one of the most well known European integrated flight training schools and although I started with a decent foundation in effects of controls, circuits, stalls etc, everyone (myself included) was forced to re-do the straight and level lesson first and then medium turns, climbing and descending lesson by lesson. I guess this is to ensure that everyone had been taught in the exact same techniques and put everyone on a level playing field. Their argument was that a solid foundation in these basic skills was key to good instrument flying technique. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is the way that all of the large flying schools will play it. Some instructors will vary of course, but this will probably be their official policy.

[sevenstrokeroll]

Hi:

I've seen a bunch of stuff on this thread that makes me cringe.

first off, presently 737 captain for a major US airline...but many years ago I was a CFIIMEI and taught lots of people to fly.

He (your crummy instructor) should have had you do the full walkaround inspection with him teaching you how to do it. AND you should ALWAYS do a walkaround inspection before each flight PERIOD. Just that he had done one earlier is reason enough to stay away from this guy.

When I was teaching...the very first lesson the student did everything...taxied, tookoff, climbed, straight and level, turns, descent and landing...certainly I was closely supervising and talking the student through everything...even working the radio , though that would be the last thing. The only reason I wouldn't do all of the above is if the weather changed and things got particularly difficult (eg: increase in cross wind).

I would report him to your ''academy'' right away...you can even take my comments here with you. I would also be very careful about spending my own money on any flying lessons anywhere.

where is shoreham? is it near West Point?

your lessons should go like this:

ground briefing in which the instructor tells you what you will do in the plane today and a full explanation of how to do it, why, etc.

thorough preflight inspection...and he should accompany you throughout this inspection until you are very good at it...and always remember to untie the ropes.

flight lesson....he (cfi) may be demonstrating the lesson objectives (eg stalls) but if the CFI is flying the plane for more than 5 minutes in a 1 hour lesson, you are getting gyped.

securing the plane after landing, tie down, shut down checklist.

walk to school room, turn around once to make sure you haven't forgotten anything.

post flight briefing...review what you learned, what problems you had and a sort of assignment for th enext lesson to prepare.

don't bother talking to him...and don't listen to this bit about each instructor having his own way. if you only ''learned straight and level"" then this guy is borderline.

im if you like

you should read a book called, ''stick and rudder'' before you take even one more lesson.

[B2N2]

I've seen a bunch of stuff on this thread that makes me cringe.


Yeah, no kidding, like this little gem:
first off, presently 737 captain for a major US airline...but many years ago I was a CFIIMEI and taught lots of people to fly.



:yuk:

Have you even read a book on flight instruction lately?
Like FOI?
Building block of flight instruction?Step-by-step?
Not the drop-em-off-the-deep-end-see-if-they-are-made-of-the-real-stuff method of flight instruction.
I'm surprised you didn't mention spins on a first lesson or did you cover that in the introduction flight already?



When I was teaching...the very first lesson the student did everything...taxied, tookoff, climbed, straight and level, turns, descent and landing...certainly I was closely supervising and talking the student through everything...even working the radio , though that would be the last thing. The only reason I wouldn't do all of the above is if the weather changed and things got particularly difficult (eg: increase in cross wind).



Sure terrified and overloaded....
Students need to understand what they are doing not simply being told and following orders.

I would report him to your ''academy'' right away...you can even take my comments here with you.
OMG are you kidding mr 737 Captain? That is really your advise, seriously?
Your way is the only way I'm sure. What a joke.
You absolutely have no idea what syllabus was used, what the school rules/ops are, what the CFI was supposed to do vs what he did.
You're talking about a 16 year old being taught his first lesson instead of being the ace he thaught he was.

[sevenstrokeroll]

Yes Mr B2n2...I have read FUNDAMENTALS OF INSTRUCTION...FOI

and no I wouldn't spin someone on their first lesson...nor in a plane not certified for spinning and not without a parachute (exception training for CFI).

TELL me what sylabus has pilots taking off in any plane without a current pre flight?

YOU make me cringe. Overloading a student with the four fundamentals of flight? An easy takeoff and talking through a landing...oh come on.


Students understanding...why do you think I indicated a briefing...and reading the best book on flying every written?

SAD state of affairs when you make excuses about ops and sylabus and what the school is supposed to do.

The original poster got a bad instructor...

and the only worse one I can think of is...fill in the blank ACE.

Age 16 is a perfect time to start to learn to fly. Neil Armstrong did it at 14.

Having an instructor takeoff and climb to altitude and then teach straight and level as the only student flown portion of a lesson is NUTS.

if I have passed THREE FAA CHECKRIDES for DIFFERENT INSTRUCTOR certificates, I think I know what I'm talking about...and in case you don't know, a captain on anything is responsible for instructing his copilot in the course of his flying duties.

sheesh...oh...maybe you taught those air france guys how to fly...makes sense.

[B2N2]

Sevenstroketroll, I think you need to read some of the gems you have posted on this board.

TELL me what sylabus has pilots taking off in any plane without a current pre flight
The preflight ws done as stated earlier, by the CFI who is the PIC.
For the benefit of expedience, can't see anything wrong with that.

if I have passed THREE FAA CHECKRIDES for DIFFERENT INSTRUCTOR certificates, I think I know what I'm talking about...

Sure you do....:ugh:
You instructed 30 years ago, things have changed a little as far as teaching techniques are concerned. Not one single syllabus has the student taking off in the first lesson.

and in case you don't know, a captain on anything is responsible for instructing his copilot in the course of his flying duties.



Does "your" airline know that?
I'm sure they'll be more then thrilled about you "teaching" your FO's on what you think to be right. Your way being the only way?
You're a tool, most you post is rubbish.
Go away.....

http://ak0.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/746548/preview/stock-footage-aerosol-can-spray-close-up-nstc.jpg

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Don't get all het up B2. SSR loves to jump on the outrage bus.

Ding ding, next stop 'Aggresion'.

[sevenstrokeroll]

Dear Sir:

The point the original poster had made was that the pre flight inspection was not done immediately prior to the lesson...it had been done in the morning and it was already in the afternoon.

Do you do a preflight hours in advance of flight? I don't.

AS to captains teaching copilots...it is quite evident in our company FLIGHT OPERATIONS MANUAL. AND we supervise and make sure the copilots are following the methods taught by the training department.


I'm sure you wouldn't understand if you don't bother to teach takeoffs in the first lesson in your flying school.


I'm glad you called me a tool... before I read that I just thought you were a weak sister and I felt sorry for you.

The original poster has already said he is taking ground school and the concepts of the theory of flight are covered in such a school.

why, why wouldn't someone teach someone to takeoff...it is required to takeoff before you can do anything else in flight.

Do you taxi the plane to the runway, perform the runup and pretakeoff checklist and control check, perform the takeoff and then, after you have trimmed up in level flight let the student control the plane?

wow...pretty lame

my students from 30 years ago are doing quite well having gone on to fine careers at many major airlines in the US.

I see them from time to time and NONE has ever said: gee, you should have taught me straight and level before you taught me how to takeoff.


try reading the original post again...the poster indicated that other students were learning to takeoff on their lessons.

someone who couldn't handle what I have outlined as the first lesson should be warned that using the B2n2 method will cost three times as much and make a pilot competent to solo DUMBO at DISNEYLAND.

Rubbish indeed...

[mad_jock]

The times have changed and the building block approach works very well.

It still takes the same number of hours if not less because the student doesn't have to work so long at the more advanced lessons.

The FAA has also started going in this direction as well after the dash crash and the studys which say the fundementals are lacking.

The jump in and let the student do everything does work with some students mostly young blokes. For the majority of the rest it produces pilots which may be able to hold it together but have little understanding in what they are doing. And will also take more hours.

When I started instructing my average was 6-10 hours in the circuit before solo when I finished full time instructing it was down to 2-3. The hours before entering went up from 4-5 to 8-12. About the same total time but they had alot more clue what they were doing.

BTW I was taught the jump in and do everything method and only really discovered what I missed when I did my instructors course.

[Shytehawk]

Sevenstrokeroll

Is your name really Dick Head as indicated under your pseudonym?

[stuckgear]

Parsons,

there's so much that cannot be determined from your post for anyone to make a judgement call.

perhaps there was a cross wind, perhaps there was more traffic on the taxi ways etc etc blah blah..

the fact is, your instruction program will be modified to fit how you learn and your individual capabilities...
as a point you may have observed others doing it, but that doesn't mean you know how to do it.

flying straight and level is a base for your flying skills that you will develop; you may think that you can handle the whole flight but you cannot and will pick up bad habits that inhibit your learning later on.

sorry, but the fact is, you dont know it all, you are there to learn.

as a side story back when i did my PPL there was another student that was a 'know it all' backchatted the instuctors, told them they were doing it wrong and wouldnt overcome his bad habits. none of the instructors liked teaching him or flying with him. consequently he solo-ed a lot later than i did, passed his x-country a lot later than i did and also his PPL.

the difference was that i sat down shut-up and listened, learned, asked questions no matter how dumb they seemed and if i didnt feel comfortable with something said so and why. you need to be part of the learning process and that means learning, even if you may feel that it is beneath you.

disrespected by your instructor? you seem to be making a fair job of that yourself.

[vetflyer]

Quote:
Do you taxi the plane to the runway, perform the runup and pretakeoff checklist and control check, perform the takeoff and then, after you have trimmed up in level flight let the student control the plane?

wow...pretty lame

Yes I do and..
...NO not lame all
This is EX 1 Therefore he needs it trimmed I demonstrate and then he has a go then practices

Also he follows through as required and I teach the checks etc


The OP & Richead Head need to calm down ! Reporting the CFI tosh !!!!
OP felt disrespected Why ? :ugh:

There, I feel better now after that rant:E

[sevenstrokeroll]

I've learned something...I really have...and I had read somthing similiar to this concept just a few weeks ago.

human beings are getting dumber due to high technology.

dear ORIGINAL POSTER...do yourself a favor...got to a different flying school/FBO and get a lesson with a different instructor.

some people can't learn to fly at all...and perhaps the instructors who don't push a little bit are just fattening their wallets.

a good instructor will push a bit...and then see if you can handle things, if you ''catch on'' quickly or need extra help.

while the technique described by my opposites here might be good for someone with certain learning needs, it is a waste of time with other students.

again...spend a few bucks, go to a different flying school at least 20 miles away and take a lesson...ask to take a lesson with a very experienced instructor or the chief instructor.

I've seen all sorts of instructors in my 37 years in aviation. I remember one gal who went out with a student and couldn't get a normal flight control check (free and correct). They taxied back, she wrote up the flight controls. I went out and checked the plane and...yes , she had the autopilot/wingleveler turned on and nothing was wrong with the plane.

The same instructor would not fly a tomahawk at the ''book'' approach speed...she felt it was too slow...can you imagine her surprise when she ran off the end of the runway?

so...don't be a BOZO or a wimp...if you have had ground school on fundamentals...you should be ahead of the game.

Change instructors at your earliest convenience. And your ''slick'' instructor has spent more time looking ''slick'' than talking and being with new students.

[sevenstrokeroll]

you have read violently opposing views...it is time for YOU to make a choice...but remember, YOU FELT that your instructor wasn't too hot.

a pilot has to make choices...some have belittled you on this forum about being disrespected...I have not...I think you should consider how YOU want to learn.

good luck, happy landings

[mad_jock]

while the technique described by my opposites here might be good for someone with certain learning needs, it is a waste of time with other students

Its not which is why the FAA are down this route as well. Even the ace of bases will learn more doing it that way. They will actually understand what they are doing instead of relying on reflexes and natural talent gettig them through. Natural talent plus knowledge and training will always beat just talent.

[Rithalic]

The only thing here that would give me any cause for concern would be that your instructor didn't do/ demo to you a full pre=flight check before your exercise. Other than that you said yourself it was your first flight, were you really expecting to be taught how to t/o, climb, turn, descend and land an aircraft before you've even covered the effects of controls?

Questions I'd be asking you would be, did you receive a pre-flight brief covering the content of the exercise to be flown? Did you then go and fly what was intended? Did you receive a debrief afterwards covering any salient points?

The first flight that we teach at the FTO/ATO (EASA ergh) in europe where I work is simply the effects of controls. The overall aim of the exercise is to be able to set an attitude hold it and trim (accurately). Spending time learning this incredibly important skill on the first exercise is much much much more important than you getting to take off / land on your first flight.

Relax, keep studying and let your instructor teach you. If in doubt about anything ask your instructor first. Im sure he/she has a good reason for doing things the way they do. If after a while you are not progressing and not happy then see your chief instructor and request a change.

[BigGrecian]

the very first lesson the student did everything...taxied, tookoff, climbed, straight and level, turns, descent and landing.

I agree with other posters - the above isn't appropriate and is not a building block technique and is often used at FAA schools which is one of the biggest downfalls of the FAA system where they through you into steep turns and landings straight away.

Under the JAA/EASA AOPA suggested syllabus climbing and descending is the 3/4th flight, landing would be around 10 flights in.

Each step leading up to the landing so that when the landing is complete it should be an easy process as the fundamentals are in place.

[B2N2]

Maybe often used at FAA schools but it shouldn't be at a good school.
As stated earlier, NO commercially available FAA PPL syllabus has you starting with doing everything.
Same as JAA/EASA, it doesn't come up till flight 4 or 5.
This 'do everything from the beginning' is BS.

[Pipersupercub]

Good school bad school... good FI bad FI ,what about bad student? or a too good student ? same topic over and over again... and we only see one side of the toasted bread!
This ain't going nowhere!

I am not a CFI , I had an Old hog as an instructor, which I really liked, but I thought I did not progress after a while. So i changed, (no problem!) I got a slick dude younger than me( i was his first student!) that pushed me so hard that i usually fell asleep exhausted in my car in the parking lot after a 2 hour flight!

some of my fellows liked him, other's did not... you just need to work it out, but to go and report him won't solve anything, grab your balls and go speak with him! that's what airmanship is about!

I can't remember my first flight though... but my first lesson, I was like 11 years old feeling great because I got to sit upfront ( had to sit in the back in the volvo) in the old man's 1946. 65hp Cub. My dad teached me to trim, and hold the same indicated airspeed, do turns( no pedals for me though! too short!) while the only thing i could see was the Old sunburnt "Texaco" Sticker on the leaking fuel tank.... he didn't let me land the cub though :8 ......... not that time!


Rick

[sevenstrokeroll]

what did you decide to do?

[caber]

This thread makes me laugh. People taking sides with great outrage over a one sided view of a first lesson. Without being there, we don't know what the instructor really covered, what kind of communication or attempted communication took place, or really any details of this schools initial lesson plan.

My only thought, as a former flight instructor and student, is that sometimes people just don't "click", and it is perfectly reasonable to try different instructors to find one that works best with your personality and learning style.

If you are hoping for a career, eventually you have to learn to get along with others, but at this stage a solid base of fundamental learning is the first priority.

[obgraham]

Not a CFI or better, here, just a lowly FAA PPL.

But: seems to me you are all missing the point. The objectives and plans for the lesson should have been reviewed with the student on the ground before walking out to the aircraft.

Doesn't matter if the "academy" is using the building block approach of today, or the laid back "I'll let you do a bunch and be here to keep check" approach we all learned under a while back.

Student has a right to understand the plan and expectations. Doesn't matter if he's 16 or 66. If he's being charged instruction rates, and that's all he did, then he has a legitimate gripe.

Too often in our US system, flight instruction is given by an hour-builder with no skill or training as a teacher.

[mad_jock]

Its a flaw in the european system as well.

In fact it will proberly get worse in the US now with the 1500 hour requirement.

What grates me is that people who have never wanted to insturct have no interest in instructing and no natural flare for it end up instructing and dragging the whole intial training system down.

[de facto]

PARSON,

Welcome to the aviation world.

You have now learned that aviation includes many types of individuals and ways of thinking:)
What i can recommend you is to check your lesson syllabus and discuss with your instructor the task before getting to the aircraft.(basically who does what and when).

That said,i know you are a young 16 year old but this thread is a good window to what is waiting for you in the commercial world,so you need to grow a pair.The earlier the better.
Talk to your CFI,if he aint getting it,fire him!:E
No one likes back stabbers even when right.

Enjoy the flying,its all youll get to enjoy before the next 20-25 years when you may start making a decent living...:ok:

[Halfwayback]

As Parson hasn't replied to any of the post I am closing the thread - he can always PM me to open it

HWB