WOULD YOU JOIN UP NOW

[turbroprop]

My next door neighbours son has just joined up and passed out of Halton. He is now onto his trade training. Although I have been out of the mob over 10 years and to be honest I only stayed the last few years because of the pension.

It made me think would I join up now. Queen and county and all that and well done on 65 years mega respect, but back in my day there were plenty of postings and bases to visit, travel, respect etc.

Things have changed, but is it still fun and not all hard work

[Bob Viking]

I think it's called the exuberance of youth. If I were a kid again I would be as keen as ever to join.
Just because things aren't how they were when we joined up it doesn't mean they're worse. Just different.
For the record, I'm still enjoying my job. Not completely bitter and twisted just yet!
BV

[ArthurR]

I left in 76, and yes I think I would join up again, my only overseas posting was Aden 65-66, not the best of times, but not the worst either, like all I had good times, bad times and some that where just times. But I was able to do somethings that would have cost money in civvy street, ie Diving, rock climbing and freefall. All in all I would do it again, if only I was younger and know what I know now.

[Diglet]

Im 10 years into an 18 year contract and Im looking to leave as soon as possible. Its not the force it was 5 years ago never mind 10 years ago. So many cuts in so many places and that total lack of efficiency that has probably always been there is now causing some severe problems on a daily basis. To be 100% honest, all the good stuff like climbing/sking etc is becoming few and far between and just dosnt happen as much any more. Maybe im just at that bitter and twisted stage but I will not be pushing my son to join a bankrupt company that will never actually pull the plug.

Diglet

[turbroprop]

Yes Authur

I would do it all again. Did lots of sports and had plenty of bad times. You accepted the **** ( I can use that word as it was I the context of 1980ish ), but I was thinking more of could I work in a military with all the political correctness etc. All I knew was in my day if the SWO was screaming in my face then it was my fault for getting caught. I hear the is no more jankers. How can the mob work with out you getting a kick up the arse ( 1980's again) when you deserved it!

[Tiger_mate]

The saving grace for newbies is that they know no different. Most that have been around for a generation or two would not consider joining after a time wharp. In short: No, I would not join.

The one sided contract was ok when balanced by benefits unique to service life, most of which have gone. Medical, Dental and Gym facilities are not enough to balance the contemporary BS.

[cuefaye]

I'd have my time all over again, but now I'm too old to answer this question! Tho' from the youngsters that I know that are serving, they seem to be enjoying their early time in a similar way that I did - albeit with caveats imposed by H&S/PC/Budgets etc. Go for it I'd say.

[The Old Fat One]

The only people that can really answer this question with a balanced view are those that have completed careers in the mob and then outside.

Some of you still in think life has turned a trifle harsh...just wait until you get outside.

If you still need to hold a job down after your military careers, boy, are some of you in for shock!!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

TOFO is right. Left RAF in '93. Wouldn't have rejoined any time since (I was asked to in '98). Quit second career in Civvy Street (teacher) in 2008 after that tanked. I cannot find a job that is worth doing where the company doesn't treat you like sh!t these days. Fortunately, I don't need to. I make my money on property and short term contracts. Deeply disillusioned with the way the world of work is going. Recommending to all the kids who ask me to start their own business, or be prepared to.

[Old-Duffer]

Next month, I start my 50th year of regular or reserve/volunteer reserve service. The changes in that half century have been amazing and in 1962/3 I could not/would not have imagined where the armed forces would be now.

I have agonised as to what the future holds for the current generation because I teach cadets and they want to know if there is a future for them. Whilst it is increasingly difficult to offer an unequivical answer, the armed forces still 'hold up' against other walks of life.

So - YES - I would join again if my life was given back to me, with what I know now. However, there are just a very few people who would get a kick in the slats if our paths crossed again!!!!

Old Duffer

[Basil]

I was ex TA REME and MN engineer when, at the age of 23, I left IBM to join the RAF.
Other than for pilot training I would not have joined. I was already an engineer and would probably have gone back to IBM or to a power station. The MN demonstrated the difficulties faced by navigators transferring out of their profession so, when I was asked at Biggin Hill, if I would accept nav training, the answer was a polite "No, Sir."
That's just me - then. Now, for someone else, is different. I'm not saying that you should ask "What's in it for me afterwards?" at the interview but you should have considered that before applying.

[turbroprop]

50 years service bloody crazy OLD DUFFER I wonder what the modern version of a kick in the slats is. As to other posts I have been lucky in my second career. Stuck in Gdansk with no aeroplane due to ground crew sunshine and it looks like the fog will be here for a few days. Good point that the newbies do not know any better.

[pr00ne]

Wouldn't go any where near the military if I had my chance again. So much more to go, do and see without ridiculous restrictions, petty rules and a totally outdated and outmoded approach to life.

Amazed that anybody wants to do so these days.

[Squirrel 41]

One of my juniors at work put his papers for the RAF Reserve in today - good for him; he's 25 now and could have 25 very interesting years. But I can't speak for the Regulars.

S41

[Roland Pulfrew]

totally outdated and outmoded approach to life.

Of course we could never apply that to the UK legal profession, could we?

Would I do it all again? Yes, if I was joining the RAF I joined (but I would try to make one or two changes to my career path).
Would I recommend it to someone joining today? Not so sure, but on balance probably yes; with the advice - don't expect any loyalty from the top, get as much as you can from it (it is still pretty good training), have an exit plan up your sleeve and enjoy it whilst you can.

[Rigga]

Wot Proone sez.

So much more outside - and without rank-bound restriction too.

[Bob Viking]

Proone and Rigga.
Maybe you shouldn't have joined in the first place. It's not for everyone after all.
BV

[BEagle]

Would I join what I joined in 1968? Yes!

Would I join the RAF of today? Emphatically NO! Too much has been lost or thrown away - and no-one seems to consider anything except wasting people, money and effort in a futile war against peasants in the North-West Frontier.

[Old-Duffer]

Just a comment on ranks, restrictions etc.

On leaving regular service, I worked for a business consultancy and was frequently mocked - in a jovial way - about the whole rank business and things like saluting.

On saluting, I pointed out why it was done and also would comment that in civilian clothes and wearing a hat, I would toff my hat to a lady or a gent such as the vicar or whoever. It was for me that and saluting were common courtesies and I never got uptight about it; saluting was a visible demonstration that I was a servant of the crown.

Regarding rank structures, I pointed out that the company had a very well defined hierarchy and this manifested itself in many ways, including who had the private offices, the personal secretaries etc. I also reminded them that whenever somebody I didn't know phoned or spoke with me, the conversation would start on the lines of: 'I'm Joe Bloggs, an associate partner in the Process stream' or 'My managing partner, Penny Buggins, has told me she wants you to ....'. Again this didn't bother me.

I agree that the armed forces is not for everybody and although I have had my fair share of being messed about, my attitude has allowed me to ride with the punches. Two days ago, I was told that there was good news and bad news. The good news is that I have been 'signed on' as a volunteer reservist until I'm 70 (14 months time); the other news is - not a day more!!

Old Duffer

[sisemen]

A repeat of 1963 - yes. Now - probably (providing I didn't have a memory of the experiences when the RAF was at its post-war peak).

And I wouldn't believe those bastards at Biggin who told me that I would never make a pilot.

[ukcds]

No, no ...no.... No and er no

[ian16th]

Do they take on 75 year old Boy Entrant's? :cool:

[Pontius Navigator]

In a flash. The chance to visit the USA, Canada, Middle East, Europe, South Atlantic, all the adventures of Boy's Own.

A tour in Aden? Same as a tour in India before the First World War, relatively speaking.

Javelin, Valiant? Same as the the Bleriot.

[charliegolf]

There's 2 million unemployed, and the under 25s are disproportionaly represented in that group. Kids don't have the service track record for informed whingeing yet- they will- but not yet. The training will likely be better than most other places, and they will have an employment record after even the shortest stint (3yrs?).

They might get killed. But probably not.

CG

[orgASMic]

Only if I could pass flying training next time round!:rolleyes:

[glum]

Yes.

It isn't the place it was, but it will still give you a bunch of standards, respect for those higher up the chain and personal confidence that you CAN cope no matter what gets thrown at you.

It can also give you a new perspective from which to base the rest of your life: Seeing others maimed really does help you to see what matters and what is 'niff-naff'.

Personally I'm now working for a great employer, with a career path I manage and far more opportunities than the current Air Force provides. The pay is very good and the benefits definitely worth having. I certainly feel valued.

I certainly wouldn't go back, but I am very glad I experienced everything I did over the 23 years I served.

[Pontius Navigator]

There's 2 million unemployed, and the under 25s are disproportionaly represented in that group.
Unfortunately, according to the Torygraph, 1 million of the under 25s don't have a single GCSE and 84,000 have but one.

With the downsizing of the armed forces the recruiting pool is looking vanishingly small too.

[charliegolf]

Fair point PN, but for a school leaver with 5 GCSEs with Maths and English, who doesn't fancy BTech in Underwater Basket Weaving, it is a good opportunity.

CG

[Roland Pulfrew]

1 million of the under 25s don't have a single GCSE and 84,000 have but one.



Well that's the army catered for then :E

[Lukeafb1]

I left the R.A.F. in 1973, having joined in 1959. Would I have advocated any of my four children to join? I doubt it, even though back then, I had a good career. Albeit, my eldest daughter did eventually fly in the U.S. Air Force.

But I have often wondered since I left, whether I made the wrong decision to join (or rather my father, who signed me up at 15 until I was 30). Even in my early teens, I desperately wanted to be either a pilot or a film director. And a film director seemed like pie in the sky.

When I came out in 1973, I started to pursue a media career and eventually reached the dizzying heights of Director (after Cameraman, VT Editor and Producer). However, my question to myself is, had I started my media career in the early 60s instead of the 70s, would I have made it to Hollywood big time? Who knows (although I did do one Hollywood series)?

My point is, did my air force career eventually stop me achieving my full potential? Although it gave me many skills (including flying) which I otherwise would not have acquired I’ll never know; and whilst I enjoyed my time in the air force, I do often wonder what might have been.

Like others on this thread, I would pose the question, where do you go after the military now? The answer seems to be a very big question mark, especially in today’s economic climate. I would hate my children to have served in the military and now be looking for a virtually non-existent job in Civvy Street and trying to support a family. :confused::confused:

[1.3VStall]

Would I join now? NO!

Would I join again if I could turn the clock back 44 years? YES!

(Best decision I ever made in my life was to join the RAF; the second best decision I made was to leave. I did enjoy most of the intervening 28 years though).

[taffyhammer]

I totally concur with 1.3Vstalls views: the best thing I did in 1975 was to join the RAF, the second best thing I did was to PVR in 1999 (after signing on to age 47). I thoroughly enjoyed my time until 1995 when the changes really started and leading to the subsequent closure of RAFG. So would I join now NO. I am seeing as much of the world now working on airliners as I did in the mob so there are other options to travel with work other than joining up.However I would never dissuade anyone from giving it a go; what maketh the man or women etc etc etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jumping_Jack]

Having just been reading the DIB on NEM I am more and more convinced that I would not join up now. Any document that uses phrasiology such as:

'The NEM is not a cost cutting exercise, it is about delivering improved value for money within the same resource envelope.'

merely demonstrates the depths so which the organisation that releases it has sunk to. Trying to cut through the guff the NEM seems to say that:

1. You will pay more for your accomodation, if you can get it.
2. You will be paid more if you are Executive Stream (look out for 2nd class service from 2nd class employees)
3. You will be told you are being given stability for wifes career and childrens education, and the loss of allowances that compensate, but we won't guarantee that we won't move you anyway.

:rolleyes:

[sisemen]

The trouble with speed reading is when you come across a phrase like this

give you a bunch of standards, respect for those higher up the chain

and the brain interprets as "give you a bunch of standards, except for those higher up the chain"

And given the pecadilloes of VSOs from time immemorial seems to fit quite adequately.

[5aday]

On reflection probably not. However I would have tried to go to Hamble then B.O.A.C.

[Pontius Navigator]

taffy, you joined as the '73 redundees were leaving. Same question would have elicited the same answers as now I feel.

[ArthurR]

Turboprop, but I was thinking more of could I work in a military with all the political correctness
no I don't think I could, I like people to say what they think, I only get up set when they don't

[NDW]

Fair point PN, but for a school leaver with 5 GCSEs with Maths and English, who doesn't fancy BTech in Underwater Basket Weaving, it is a good opportunity.

CG

Just like me :E. Only I've got 7 GCSE's :8.

All seriousness though, I'd love to be able to join up tomorrow (if I could), but to be honest with the ever-growing redundancies, maybe its times to look into another career sector (If the Goverment don't keep shrinking those aswell!!).
Thankfully, I'm working within Aviation at the moment, so i'm half way there :ok:

[essexlad]

Being in for only 4 years as of april next year i have noticed quiet alot of changes since leaving my trade training units. Most of the benefits i were entitled to have been withdrawn (GYHEY, free rail/air warrants etc), conpared to what i experienced in my first two years the cameraderie and team spirit that existed in my bay has almost dissapeared, changes to my pension meaning i wont get it untill 65 once ive done 22 years instead of instant payout,more pressure to get the job done on time with lack of manpower, promotion being a case of whos backside you kiss and not how good you are at the job and feeling like your constantly going against the grain. I enjoy my job but on hindsight would i do it all again? Id have to think very carefully. Afterall if i hadnt joined i would never have met my fiance, had my child and made some great friends. all whilst earning a decent wage and having a trade under my belt.

[Backwards PLT]

Would I? Yes, absolutely.

Unless you can point me to somewhere else where I can fly really fast pointy things. I didn't join because I wanted to travel or be "an officer", thought most (honest) aircrew were the same?

[taffyhammer]

Pontios; I have done all the same except south atlantic both mob and civvie (lucky escape) I am unable to comment on current academic achivement levels now attained by the under 25's, and to far removed from the military system to really comment onwhat the current acceptable level is; but as far as I am aware it has been dumbed down from the good/bad old days. However I am willing to accept any chastisment to the contarary!!!!!!

[ian16th]

1 million of the under 25s don't have a single GCSE and 84,000 have but one.PN,

This didn't stop tens of thousands entering the RAF through the Boy Entrants scheme.

The RAF realised that not having a good education did not mean that you were stupid. The RAF were leaders in using IQ tests and aptitude tests to stream recruits into suitable trades.

I left school in 1952 and became a B/E at 15 years and two months.

After my 13 years RAF service, I had a very good and rewarding career in the computer industry, where most of my peers were university educated. I held my own and succeeded. In the main because of the RAF's training and the confidence in my abilities that the RAF had nurtured.

[oldmansquipper]

ian16th

As a mere 4t6th `rook` I have to agree with you on the B/E point.. I hated it at the time but on reflection 50 years on they were great times. 39 years service and I don't regret a minute.

As for joining today - I expect I would as I would have no knowledge of how it was - those times have passed and are as relevant as fuel in the bowser after take off.

Nonetheless I was privileged to visit 4 SofTT this year 50 years after attesting in 62. We were hosted at lunch by some airmen trainees and I was so impressed with their enthusiasm and dedication so early in their careers..Great stuff.

No,, Its not what it used to be...but life goes on - good luck to them all :D

[Pontius Navigator]

Taffy, I did FI on a day return :) best way.

Ian 16th, while what you say is undoubtedly true with many becoming sqn ldr or higher, the point is that today there is not the same BE scheme and competition for the nearest equivalent scheme, like Junior Leaders, is very fierce.

As the forces total, are less than the Army alone of a few years ago, and not much more than the size of the RAF then, there is no way that the Service intake could absorb more than a handful of those NEET, nor would they want to.

These are really just asides from the OP to which the answer must remain, many people do want to join.

[Blacksheep]

Would I join today? If the only other option for a young chap with 6 'O' levels including Maths & English was a craft apprenticeship in a chemical works, sure, I'd do it again. :ok:

[Rigga]

Taffyhammer...

We lost touch when I left FCA. Still keeping them jets going? - Where are you now JT?

[taffyhammer]

Hi Rigga

Still with the company, volunteered to go round the world to see sun, sand and sea. So I am sat here in my appartment in Finland covering our wet lease over here. Not a lot of sand and definateley no sun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OJT

[Rigga]

...Nice weather for staying in Finland?


PM to follow

[Dengue_Dude]

Err . . . . . . . . No

[Party Animal]

Would I join?

Yes - absolutely. For the same reasons that I did 32 years ago. Bored to death with studying engineering, the Army/Navy/RAF/police/fire brigade offered the perfect solution. Having looked at them all, the desire to fly in the RAF far outweighed the other options and nothing else mattered.

Would I have accepted pilot/nav/AEng/AEOp/LM?

Yes absolutely. I wanted to fly - in any seat and never even considered a career beyond making the grade through training.

Would I have accepted ATC/FC/Regt etc...

Probably, but only at officer level. If this was the only option, I would seriously have looked at the Army and Navy as alternatives. Lets face it, some of us like parachuting, driving tanks, operating ships etc.. and service life will always attract these type of characters.

However, if you asked the question:

Would I stay?

Absolutely not. I think between 9 and 12 years would be my absolute limit. Enough to master ones art, do everything worth doing and realise that beyond that, the whole edifice is crumbling and rotting away around you without sufficient rewards to make it all worthwhile. I'm sure it would be a great 9-12 years but definitely time to move on at the end...

[84nomore]

After serving 23 years, commissioned and non-commissioned, I have to admit it was the best time of my life, and there were some very low times as well as extremely high.

As other posters have said, it may not be the same as it was, but those who were already serving when I joined up in 1984 had the same complaint. The opportunities are there for those who want them. I did most things I could get away with on the sport and AT front, others did nothing, and then whinged about not doing them. I travelled to places I had never thought of going (good places!) and saw so many things my non-serving mates could only dream of.

My son is now considering joining and I wouldn't stop him. The only thing I have said to him is go the commissioning route. He’ll have a better lifestyle and more money, and more importantly, an additional qualification having been an officer, which these days, still affords some respect in civvy street.

Would I join again? Maybe, but then again, I know better! Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

[MechGov]

Would I join?

No

[Uncle Ginsters]

In a word.....NO.

IMNSHO, we've been cutback too far. All of the intangibles that kept folk happy have (or are) disappearing because beancounters don't work in such ways. Sport, AT and most other peripherals are becoming harder and harder to achieve whilst our primary roles are largely under-supported in a wide variety of trades...:(

[Two's in]

What some former service people are missing is that they have witnessed a significant degradation in the terms and quality of service over the years, which understandably has created an unfavorable impression of life in the services.

This comparison with "back when I joined" is not valid for somebody joining today. There is no yearning for the good old days when you started yesterday. The pension will be the pension that's in place today, the equipment and manning levels will be what they get used to.

Compared to what the outside world has to offer, a career in HM Forces still looks very attractive. Few would argue that the training, discipline and can-do attitude learnt in the military create an ecellent baseline of skills for life beyond it. The cameraderie and travel may look bleak when compared to the 1970's Armed Forces, but compared to being a customer service advisor for Direct Line it, still looks very impressive today and tomorrow.

Although being in or retired from the military requires every sentence to start with "back when I joined", it helps if comparisons are made with what young people have as realistic careers options. Comparisons with the halcyon days of the Armed Forces are not entirely objective.

[Pontius Navigator]

TI, spot on.

On the night Kennedy was assinated I was 'advised' by a young retired sqn ldr to resign.

A year later, on the first day in my first operational mess, I was again encouraged to resign.

The ignorance of youth will not listen to the tales of the twitter and blistered and recognise them for what they are, the tales of the disenchanted old and decrepit aviator which does not hold any relevance for them.

[Bob Viking]

You have captured the exact spirit of what I was trying to say in post #2. Guys joining now won't know any better and will love the job regardless. If not, they will leave. Ever has it been thus!
If I'm honest I find it moderately offensive the way some of the 'old and bold' continue to slag off today's military because it isn't the same organisation they joined back in 1962 (or whenever). I think some people need to get over themselves and accept the fact that the world will continue to evolve and sadly things will change. Not always for the better but c'est la vie. If people hadn't accepted change in the past we would never have had an Airforce and we'd still be using aircraft for artillery spotting.
I'm glad that certain individuals are enjoying their new lives in the big, wide world. Just let those still in the military enjoy their time and quit your whining. It's boring!
BV:mad:

[Pontius Navigator]

BZ BV :D:D

[Out Of Trim]

Would I join now..... N O. Servicemen have been despised by the last two governments and without a Military Coup to resolve the governments commitment I don't see things changing for the better!

Not a chance, I wouldn't protect this lot for anything! Sad, but oh well that' s how I feel now.

[gijoe]

'As other posters have said, it may not be the same as it was, but those who were already serving when I joined up in 1984 had the same complaint. The opportunities are there for those who want them. I did most things I could get away with on the sport and AT front, others did nothing, and then whinged about not doing them. I travelled to places I had never thought of going (good places!) and saw so many things my non-serving mates could only dream of.'

This sums it up well.

There are young graduates where I am now in their first jobs - there are guys that have been there 40 years. I pity them sometimes if this is what they aspire to. None of them have had the experiences, solid 3 meals, roof over their head, med and dental, lows and highs that I enjoyed in 21 years...and all for a good living.

The ex-service guys all speak the same language. 'When-I's' they are not.

It is not the same now , and never will be again.

...but I would wear the 2 colours of uniform that I wore and would do the same again without question. It made me.

:ok: G

[Union Jack]

On the night Kennedy was assinated I was 'advised' by a young retired sqn ldr to resign.

PN - Without in any way diminishing the significance of the events concerned:

a. Which Kennedy?

b. Surely the "squabbling bleeder" didn't think that you were in any way responsible.

c. Assinated - sounds very painful ....:sad:

Jack

PS Back on thread - I'd join up like a shot - but only if I could be guaranteed to reach my present rank - at least!

[Pontius Navigator]

UJ, if you looked at the chronology.

[BEagle]

If I'm honest I find it moderately offensive the way some of the 'old and bold' continue to slag off today's military because it isn't the same organisation they joined back in 1962 (or whenever). I think some people need to get over themselves and accept the fact that the world will continue to evolve and sadly things will change. Not always for the better but c'est la vie. If people hadn't accepted change in the past we would never have had an Airforce and we'd still be using aircraft for artillery spotting...

Bob, the point is that, while there were earlier redunancy and 'Golden Bowler' schemes, the RAF was still large enough to cope and for most people very little changed in their microcosm. But since the mid-90s, the RAF effectively imploded. The RAF hospitals closed, virtually everything else was cut to the bone and the future was increasingly grim for everyone except a few arse-licking star-hungry thrusters.

As was once said, when your 'goodies' bucket fails to counterbalance your '$hit' bucket, it's time to pull the B&Y. But the problem now is that there is cock-all with which to fill the 'goodies' bucket and far too much with which to fill the '$hit' bucket....

If you ever find a copy of the old 'Frustration' FS movie, you'll see what the real RAF used to consider frustrating for most aircrew. Whereas the same things nowadays would be considered quite luxurious!

Once the UK wises up and stops wasting our best people, money and time in an unwinnable war in Afghanistan, just what roles will the UK's Armed Forces be expected to fill?

[Bob Viking]

BEagle.
As I said. Times change. With all due respect, maybe you should let those that are currently serving make those decisions for themselves. I've been in for over 13 years so far and my bucket is just fine. For now.
Others buckets may be entirely different but I'll let them fight their own battles.
I'm not saying life is perfect but then when has it ever been? Was it really so different twenty or thirty years ago? Was everybody completely happy?
There are many things I would like to change. Some crap things have happened in my time. I used to be based at Coltishall so I know all about the good life. Sadly we just have to accept the changes and move on or we spend our lives being miserable. Or we leave.
I think the bottom line is that everyone in the UK has had to have a bite of the same **** sandwich and life is not perfect anywhere right now.
The forces still offer a good life for those that like that sort of thing. It probably always will. It just won't be the life it was in 19...(insert year here)!
BV

[Union Jack]

UJ, if you looked at the chronology.

I ain't go no time for "ologies" ...:)

Jack

[Robert Cooper]

In answer to the original question, NO. The RAF I served in is not the same as todays.

Bob C

[Tiger_mate]

I'm not saying life is perfect but then when has it ever been? Was it really so different twenty or thirty years ago? Was everybody completely happy?

Iam still serving after 35 years so am qualified for an opinion. As late as 1990 the green wailing minis would wake you up at unearthly hours on frequent occasion for yet another war game.

War games for me included arriving at work unshaved and climbing atop the nearest unmanned helicopter to BF it whilst groundcrew opened hangar doors and ensured F700 were good to go. Once a crew (2 persons) had been constituted, you loaded the cab and flew to a briefed forward site (farmyard). On more than one occasion I have been the first person on site with no GC support.

You then spent however long it took in freezing conditions living in a rat infested barn and packing up daily as you were unlikely to end the day were you started.
No comms with home and initially you had no idea whether it was a game or the real thing. Toilets were a spade and a luxury item was a bowl filled with hot water from a lazy something or other that provided hot water.

Morale and comeraderie were sky high. Budgets did not feature in the MoD dictionary and if one of lifes dramas came your way, it was rapidly deleted by in house suport. The only fear by military aviators (families) then was the arrival of a staff car, female officer, padre and exec in No 1s for aircraft did fall out if the sky far too often.

Work hard, play hard was a way of life, not a cheesy quotation. Few if anybody in todays military can say that and nobody has a key ingrediant of a military career: Job Security. It has changed - significantly- and whilst the new generation know no different, that does not make the support you receive from Govt morally right.

[BEagle]

Apart from general downsizing and a reduction in the number of aircraft types, the RAF of the early 1990s wasn't really that different to the service I'd joined in 1968. For example, the students on the UAS at which I instructed enjoyed a similar way of life to that which I'd experienced 25 years earlier - if anything, their flying training was rather better. But there were few APOs amongst their number....and in equivalent terms, their pay was a fraction of the pay we'd enjoyed as APOs in 1972.

However, after Gulf War 1 it was cut after cut after cut and ever increasing levels of niff-naff and triv until my personal QoL minima were reached 11 years later. It was time to decide FIIQ and to pull the B&Y only 3 years before my NRD - things had dropped to a level which I would no longer tolerate. Interestingly, whilst at Binnsworth I told a DeskO that I was considering PVR-ing and he advised me that he'd be off like a shot in my circumstances - in his opinion the RAF was destroying itself and there was little worth staying in for.

The next 10 years were pretty good though - working on a worthwhile programme for which I was well-qualifed under a boss (ex-mil) who understood leadership and people's needs and who inspired the small, productive team who worked for him. Lots of European travel and no administrivial arguments over reasonable expenses.

[Dengue_Dude]

If the question is 'Would YOU join up today' (my capitals), then why complain when people state why they wouldn't? We can only judge (honestly) by reference to our own experiences and beliefs.

If you don't WANT to see what folks other than you feel about the questions, then stay off the thread or the forum.

Each of us has the right to answer the question honestly, dishonestly, emotionally, or whatever suits - that's why it's a forum.

[ChristianR354]

As a military aircrew wanna-be. I would definitely join up and I intend to. Its all I've ever wanted to do!

There seems to be a lot of negativity about the service these days from some of the ex-serving guys and gals on here. I understand your reasons for it. The Forces have changed a large amount from the looks of things since the Cold war days.

From my perspective, I wouldn't know what those days were like. Unfortunately I never will. I can only read threads of the types of things that happened on here from you guys who served in the different eras. Some have given me some great laughs reading. I'm sure when I join up (if I get selected) I will have a fantastic time and will love it. The Forces still seem to offer a great lifestyle with opportunities that civvi street simply cannot compete with! I'd be mad not to attempt joining.

Plus what else is a young lad studying a Bsc Mathematics to do for a career? I don't fancy being a teacher all my life! :ok:

Chris.

[theboywide]

I'm 14 years in and raring for more!
Yes, there is more **** but ultimately it's a very rewarding job with so much variety compared to our civilian counterparts.
Wides

[84nomore]

Chris

Go for it! When people remember their past lives, some remember the good times, and others the bad. I had a great career, and while it is different today than what it was then, it will still be great for you. Make the most of the opportunities on offer and take what you can from it. Plus, give back what you can and you will have a long and successful career.

Good luck to you!

[The Old Fat One]

Equally good views from both sides of the fence here. I like BV's posts, but also think Dengue Dude's point above is spot on.

A wee extra contribution if I may. The biggest difference I noticed between my military and civil careers was in the people I went to work with. In the RAF a very high percentage of good eggs and a very low percentage of oxygen thieves. In civvy street, less of the former and much, much more of the latter.

And I suspect that is one thing that has not changed too much.

[GGR]

Well said Beagle, could not agree more.

[Pontius Navigator]

Lots of . . . travel and no administrivial arguments over reasonable expenses.

In my last job initially I was treated as an adult. I self-authorised my T&S and I guess the cost was around £250 per year. I was also give a £100 expenses/entertainment fund for coffee and biscuits.

Then the Army took over and every expenditure had to be pre-authorised. My entertainment bill increased to around £500 (and we did it to the approved rates and cheap too). My T&S also increased to around £1200.

My last shot from the finance officer was about my 1st class rail travel (before the rules changed) "But the Colonel goes Standard." So? I travelled 1st.

Treat people like adults and they should behave responsibly. If not jump on the individual not everyone.

[BEagle]

ChristianR354, good luck in your endeavour and I hope you are selected to become an RAF pilot.

Typhoon is becoming more and more established, with F-35B not far off. On the ME side Voyager and Atlas should be in service by the time you graduate...oh and some helicopters too, although quite what they will all be doing post-NW Frontier is moot.

Good luck with your degree in Hard Sums! Have you considered joining the OTC or URNU? Or perhaps the UAS, although the flying isn't terribly generous these days and the CAA won't allow much of it to count towards a civil licence (except the NPPL).

It's a pity you won't have anything like the opportunities which were available even 15 years ago though. But try to make the most of what's left.....:(

[dctyke]

The most important thing to me in my 36yrs (came out 5yrs ago this week) was that you knew if anything went pear shaped the 'company' would look after you and your family. Towards the end of my career that one thing was eroding at a vast rate of knots and I worry there is very little left. I am still in contact with colleagues who are still in who now seem to be treated nothing other than an employee. The reciprocal to this is that folks start to treat the RAF as just another job. It's a downwards spiral...... and no, I would not wish to start 'again'.

[Haraka]

Perhaps those considering joining the Service today should consider the issue as to whether or not there will be sufficient justification for an independent Royal Air Force, much past its centenary.

[Finningley Boy]

I'd sooner join the Zimbabwean Air Force, better T&Cs!:ok:

FB:)

[BEagle]

I'd sooner join the Zimbabwean Air Force, better T&Cs!:ok:

Perhaps back in the days when it was the Rhodesian Air Force....

?v=-p1NRLFso6Q

Caution - includes strong language!

:ok::ok:

[Ali Qadoo]

Fascinating thread. It's easy to fall into the trap of "fings ain't what they used to be," and I too can bore for Britain on the topic of, "I miss the Service I joined, I don't miss the one I left," and it tickles me pink to see the "one I left" in 1995 now held up as the good old days.

In answer to the OP's question; wind the clock back to 1976 with me as teenager who'd wanted to be a pilot since he could remember, and of course I'd join up. Funnily enough, no sooner had I arrived on the UAS than I discovered that all the QFIs bar the boss had PVR'd and, over a few pints, could be heard complaining that, "It's no fun anymore, not like the old days etc." I knew they were probably right, but at that age, the prospect of flying one of Auntie Betty's pointy aeroplanes and actually being given a few beer vouchers for doing so, was all I cared about. I'm sure there's no shortage of youngsters out there who feel the same now. However, give them a few years, an idiot boss with the career light on, too much nif-naf, a marriage and a couple of kids, a posting to Afghanistan or somewhere really remote like Valley, and they'll turn bitter and twisted just like so many others.

I think there's a grain of truth in the, "It's not the Service I joined any more," line but I think it's we who change most as we get older and our priorities evolve. That said, I spent 19 years in the RAF and apart from time spent working for people like the B-word, I look back on it with great fondness, and am equally glad to say that I have never once regretted leaving.

So would I join up today? No, not even for a chance to fly the Typhoon: 150 flying hours a year if you're lucky, and that leaves an awful long time between trips for the highly-paid help to make your life pretty miserable. In no particular order, here's why I wouldn't:

1. The notion of a 'Military Covenant' between HMG and the Services has become a fiction. Loyalty is now a one-way street and they can't even afford the grease for inserting the cricket bat these days. No more military hospitals, pensions under threat, ditto MQs, allowances cut back etc as many earlier posters have pointed out.

2. And what would I actually be defending if I signed on? The days of the Cold War, with Ivan's tanks only 36 hours from Calais have gone, and I wouldn't trust a government of any colour not to put my delicate pink body in danger, on a political whim, by dragging the UK into another criminally pointless waste of blood and treasure like Afghanistan or Iraq.

3. Finally, it's never been the serviceman's lot to be picky about who he's fighting for, but, looking at the wreck of a country I was once proud to call home, and some of the oxygen-stealing biomass with which it's populated (and no, before anyone gets the wrong impression, that's not a race/immigration thing), then, no, I most certainly wouldn't sign up today to protect them.

As a footnote to my last point, I remember my late father who somehow managed to survive a stint on Hurricanes and 2 full tours on Typhoons, saying, just before he died, 'When I look at the state of the country now, I don't know why I f*cking bothered.' I think he was right.

[Courtney Mil]

Ah, that's the Ali Qado I remember. Direct, to the point and deliciously cynical. But, underneath it all, absolutely right as ever.

My years in the service constituted a very mixed bag, but with many more plusses than minuses. I was there for the flying, although managed to hang on for a long time after that was all over as long as the odd mate took me for rides now and then and I felt like my time in the mahogany bomber was doing some good for the guys and girls, the front line and whatever it was we were supposed to be doing at the time. I only left a few years early and that was only because of a very good redundancy offer and circumstances at the time. As it turned out, I certainly left at the right time. For me.

Would I join now? As things stand, no, my life has moved on. As it was when I joined; Hell, yes. If I were a youngster with a dream of flying today; yes, I really think I would.

It's a good thread, this one. Very interesting points being made.

[Out Of Trim]

Ali Qadoo

You said it much better than I!

It's more to do with how I perceive today's UK and it's very poor recent governments and their failure towards the military covenant, rather than the service I was once proud to be a member of and would go the extra mile for in my day. :{

[ChristianR354]

84nomore & BEagle
Thank you for the kind words and encouragement to join the RAF. Its words like these that keep the motivation high to strive for the ultimate goal. I appreciate it! With all the current cuts that are happening its sometimes hard to think I could get selected. The competition is very fierce.

Long story regarding the UAS - I went to apply for MASUAS during my first year of University however I was still a member of the Air Training Corps at the time. I couldn't be a member of each simultaneously. It was one or the other. After long discussion with my squadron CO I decided to stay in the ATC for my final year as I was put in for promotion to F/Sgt and was also awarded my gliding scholarship so it was the best choice for me personally. I was awarded an ACPS too.

Start of my second year of University I re-applied for the UAS. Having timed out as a cadet due to my age I decided to give it another shot. Interview went well however I came across a little too shy. First time I've been interviewed by a Sqn Ldr, Flt Lt and an APO at the same time so the nerves got to me. In the end I wasn't selected for the UAS. Very disappointed news it was. I tried my best though!

I feel this set back puts me at a disadvantage to the competition when applying for the RAF. Especially against candidates who were selected for the UAS. I'm in a pickle as I don't know if this set back will really effect my chances of being selected. Still going to go for it though. It hasn't put me off joining a single bit. I've recently started as a CI at my cadet squadron so still keeping in the loop and volunteering!

Thanks again. All the best!
Chris

[AR1]

AQ - Saved me half an hour typing it out myself..

Would I if I were 18 again? - Yes. Would they have me? - No chance. At least not with the standard of education with which I left comprehensive in 1977.

I can understand why those who shot for and attained a higher standard might now consider that under the same circumstances they would choose a different route, but imagine how many of todays youth who's attainment lagged potential (read me...) have no (or at least a limited) outlet that will teach them how to be men, educate them and set them on the right path. You probably need 10 GCSE's to be a cook. Well, you might if they still existed as a trade!

[Robert Cooper]

To answer the question as posed, then I would say no because the Air Force as I perceive it today is not the one I knew in the 50's and for 30 years thereafter. However, if a young man or woman wants to fly and test their abilities to the max then i would say go for it! You will not have the same experiences I had, but that is to be expected. However, you will have your own experiences with good men and women who share your endeavor and enthusiasm for flight. I don't regret one minute of my 30 years in the RAF, but there is no doubt that todays air force is different and some of us old codgers don't quite understand it. My dad who flew with bomber command in WWII had a different perspective than me too! I will say this, the training and experience you get is second to none, and you will acquire something that makes you stand out from the crowd for the rest of your life.

Bob C

[Pontius Navigator]

Christian, that should not be a problem. Provided you learn from that experience, get a good degree, gain in confidence etc. It could even work to your advantage.

[GeeWhizz]

I found reading some of the opinions here fascinating. Especially those from waaaay back. I just couldn't resist leaving my opinion here too.

I'm a gnats dick over 10 years in and still here just about. Only a short stint so far in comparison to some of you but I think it's a certainty that things have changed during my time. Indeed I fall on the side of the fence where the changes have been for the worse. Here are a few random thoughts off the top of me swede...

It seems so convoluted to get anything done in recent years (3-4) as each thing needs an in depth analysis or auditing or a signature from 20 different people. Over complicated procedures usually for the budgets sadly. Using ELCAS for something useful can be a challenge for instance.
Oddly I used to be able to get a lot done during down time with the random cluster of pals we find ourselves amongst. So I think perhaps less 'work' is being done over a casual pint in the bar/mess than it used to. I also think its a sad fact of todays RAF that although opportunities for AT and sport are still there, it's damn difficult to get the time off to do it. Overall we've probably got a little less work to do with much less manpower, resulting in some ridiculous workloads and OOA turn overs.

Job security came up earlier. Even so little as 5 years ago job security was a main reason for sitting tight and enjoying ride. But new legislation seems to threaten that security, as well as the redundancies. For example the new RAFFT process reads like a quicker way to get rid of people (I'm not starting a debate on the FT, it's one of those hoops though which we must jump). its almost as if there's an increasing amount of new 'do this or you're out!' rules being forced on us.

I often ask myself what has changed for me over the last 10 years and I'm not sure I can put my finger on it. Would I join now from scratch? No.... but maybe. Because it's alright, fun most of the time, good mates, reasonable salary. It was mentioned earlier about having an exit plan. Definitely wish I'd had one of those now as I would probably consider the big ol PVR. I think I'd refuse a promotion or two too, things don't seem so much fun now with this extra crap to deal with. This isn't to say that I wouldn't encourage others to join. I'd just advise them to KNOW what they are doing, rather than be railroaded into something misunderstood and misguided. Good luck to them too!

[Red Line Entry]

Lots of people commenting on what's changed and having started my career working for the Scottish Gp Capt when he was the Scottish Gp Capt, I've seen those changes too. However, to me the important stuff is what hasn't changed. In the main:

I still go to work with a bunch of people I would trust my life to.
We still banter in pretty much the same non-PC way we did in the 80s.
If they're asked to do stuff then they'll do their damndest to get it done.
Apart from missing the family, Ops are still the most satisfying part of the job.
The youngsters are just as keen, motivated as we ever were (but they're probably cleverer and less naive)

So they're missing out on RAFG and Tacevals in the same way I missed out on Changi and Aden. Their Air Force is less than 40,000 strong, 'my' Air Force was almost 100,000 and the old lags when I joined talked of an RAF of a million. Things change, but the character of the people doesn't. In the end, so what if yesterday's generation winge about the state of things - it was ever thus.

I'm sorry if all this sounds PR guff but it's how I feel. The RAF is still a great place to be for the people who want to be there. And that includes, for the moment, me.

[The Old Fat One]

^^^:ok: RLE...well said sir.

To anybody still in the mob and reading this pretty decent well-balanced thread, the game of..."everything's changed for the worse" is clearly as old as the hills. You can imagine an old centurion lamenting such like, shortly after Caeser got voted out the forum, Roman style.

Fact is times change and whether the net effect is for better or worse is entirely a matter of personal perspective.

Just remember the old adage...look before you leap. The WSOP job was recently advertised in the press, at a starting salary of circa £34K. Where I live that is the going rate for a senior manager in a large company, or a company director of a small business (I've been both). And I absolutely guarantee that...

They will be working a lot more hours.
They will have zero job security.
They will have 28 days off a year...if they are lucky.
They will not have a pension unless they are buying it themselves.

Of course they probably won't be being shot at...so you pays your money and you take your chance.

GL whatever each and everyone of you decide to do.

[Whenurhappy]

I've resisted joining this thread, but here goes...

After 27 years in 2 Services and several close shaves with leaving the RAF prematurely (and still serving) I enjoy immensly what I do. Would I have done things differently? Probably. Do I miss my brief flying career? Not really.

Have there been tours I've hated? One or two were not what I wanted but I got the best out of them, in part due to the great guys and girls that I have worked with. And that's the key - it's the people, not the job. Several years ago we went to a family wedding and the happy couple (both City lawyers) were supported by some of their City Alpha Male (and Alpha Female) friends. They were all about 30, earning 6 figure salaries...and hating every minute of it. They didn't trust their co-workers, they didn't trust their bosses, they were incredibly cynical about their work, and they couldn't wait to do the mythical 'down-shift' and move to a more simple life.

By comparison I had just returned from AFG, had a really interesting job in MB, had previously served overseas etc etc. I trusted my bosses, I really trusted my fellow SP and CS, I generally believed in what I was doing...etc.

Yes, the RAF is smaller and there are few overseas postings now; but when I joined people were bemoaning the loss of Singapore, Gan, you name it. However, for those who know me and my blunty background, in the last 13 years I have managed to pack in a huge range of operational tours, overseas postings, joint appointments and now likely to top it off with another great posting (probably my last). How have I done this? Self belief and doggedly pursuing the Desk officer with options - not problems! (and an understanding wife....)

In sum, would I join if I was 18-23 now? Absolutely!

[Charlie Time]

26 years in and AQ has it about right. It's a NO from me.

[orca]

Here's the exam question for the nay sayers out there:

What would you do instead?

If a young lad or lady asked your advice - you'd genuinely say "Don't bother mate, go and be a ......". Really?

Where else can one fly, control or maintain (whole ship me!;)) military hardware? Why do 'lad mags' regularly contain some form of military fantasy? Answer - because everyone has one but few have the motivation to fulfill them. We are those few, those happy (sometimes not) few. Fortunately we enjoy an all volunteer armed forces. Which is actually the great part about this thread - everyone volunteered no matter whether or not they'd do it again. (Well done us.)

I have always felt incredibly sorry for those, no matter how well off, that go to work simply to pay for their hobbies at the weekend. I go to work because it pretty much is my hobby.

And yes I have worked with knobs, yes I have genuinely wanted to kill some people 'on our side' and yes - I have briefly flirted with plans to leave. But I'd do it all again in a heart beat.

[Pontius Navigator]

I have an 18 yr old nephew. He wanted to be a pilot in the RAF. Then he switched his goal to the AAC. More recently to go civvie. I suspect that he has been persuaded to go in that direction with scant consideration of the inevitable costs to his parents, as there is no way a bright 18 yr old can finance his own training.

The Forces on the other hand . . .

TOD has the right of it on earning power. Yes, there are high powered, higher paying jobs but even now to they offer the quality of life?

[St Johns Wort]

I left last year just shy of 42 years service. The RAF has changed, but no more so than virtually every other aspect of life in the country.

Would I join up now? In a heart beat.

[Bob Viking]

I've only just read your post (#68) and presume it was directed at me. You appear to have missed my point.
I wholeheartedly agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion and I, for one, am very glad that we are not all the same. Life would be dull if that were the case.
I was just trying to answer the original question. Would I as an 18/21 year old still want to join the RAF as a fighter pilot in 2012? The answer is a categorical yes because I wouldn't know any different. I joined in 1999 having harboured the dream of flying FJs since my parents took me to the Yeovilton Air Days of the early 80's. Wild Horses couldn't have dragged me away (tenuous Rolling Stones reference).
On the other hand would I, as a 36 year old married father of two, join in 2012? Maybe not but that was not my personal circumstances when I went to the recruiting office. However, as mentioned above, what the hell would I be doing instead? I would bet money it wouldn't be as much fun as flying low level at high speed and dropping bombs.
I can absolutely understand why others feel differently but to compare the RAF of 1972 with the RAF of 2012 is fallicy.
I am very heartened to see that there are still guys who want to live the dream. good luck to them all.
I don't want to come across as a stuck record so I shall leave it there.
BV:oh:

[BEagle]

Bob, the first Yeovilton air show I can remember featured the Avro 707C! (No, not the 504 before any smart ar$e suggests that!)

The shows with formations of Sea Hawks, Sea Venoms plus the odds and sods like Meteors and Wyverns...

Then there was the show which featured the 'forthcoming' Sea Vixen and Scimitar prototypes. I can still remember exatly what the Scimitar's impressive arrival and max rate turn around the airfield sounded like!

The show with Vixens doing an airfield attack - and another doing a simulated tactical nuclear weapon 'over-the-shoulder' attack. Good flash, bang and petrol mushroom cloud followed!

The shows with the 'new' Phantoms......and Simon's Circus.....and the Blue Herons....

Yes, you can't compare the RAF of 1972 with the RAF (or RN) of today. But you could compare the RAF of 1992 with the RAF of 1972 and it would still have been easily recognisable. It was the rapid degeneration following the mid-90s which ruined everything in my opinion, I'm sorry to have to say.

[Wholigan]

Having read all of this with some interest, and being officially "an old fart", I feel that I ought to contribute my twopennorth.

At the age of 6 or 7 I was intrigued by aeroplanes and thought it would be great if I could "do that".

At the age of 10 I was pretty much decided that I was going to be the best fighter pilot there had ever been (apart that is from Ace Brave who was really a space pilot but who cared, he was still a hero!).

At the age of 15 I had narrowed it down to the fact that I was going to be the best goddam Hunter pilot in the world!

I was very fortunate in that I fooled enough of the people enough of the time that I was able to become a Hunter pilot.

I really rather like to think that there are still a lot of young bloods out there who have today's equivalent of my dreams, and who will pursue them as hard as they can. If I am wrong then I shall go sit in a corner chewing a hankie and crying.

Right you lot, yes I lived through the best of times in the RAF (OK OK in my opinion that is).

Would I recommend that today's youth sign on the dotted line to join the RAF? Not only would I ...... I do whenever I get the chance.

Whether or not I believe that the RAF today is as much fun as it was, is as much of a challenge as it was, is as well equipped as it was, is as well supported as it was, is as well led as it was, or whatever ..... the one thing that I can pretty much be certain of (because it has to be this way) is that the people you will serve with will be an amazing bunch of guys and gals that - in my opinion - will be better in every way than the people that have chosen not to follow such a dream at your particular point in time.

You will have an awesome time that will be difficult to match anywhere else. You'll be pissed off severely at times, hell I was pissed off severely at times. Learn to live with that sh1t and make the most of life at its best anywhere!!!

So fu**ing there!

Edited to say: Joined in February 1964 and served continuously for 46 years, the last few as FTRS running an AEF.

[high spirits]

Beagle is talking hoop as far as I'm concerned. The helicopter world was definitely not ruined in the mid 90s and has enjoyed it's heyday whilst I have been in. It's still a hoot and you know that you are doing a good job for those on the ground, whatever your service. Nothing like low level into the GZ in Helmand to give you the 'pucker factor' which has endured in spite of fewer aircraft numbers. The other enduring factor is the banter and camaraderie.

The answer is an emphatic 'yes I damn well would'.

[Dengue_Dude]

I wholeheartedly agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion and I, for one, am very glad that we are not all the same. Life would be dull if that were the case.
I was just trying to answer the original question. Would I as an 18/21 year old still want to join the RAF as a fighter pilot in 2012? The answer is a categorical yes because I wouldn't know any different. I joined in 1999 having harboured the dream of flying FJs since my parents took me to the Yeovilton Air Days of the early 80's. Wild Horses couldn't have dragged me away (tenuous Rolling Stones reference).

Not just you, and yes perhaps I did read your comments wrongly. Your point is sustained. But as I said earlier, we can only judge honestly based on our experiences and beliefs. As you said, if you've not yet HAD those experiences, then I agree.

Sounds a bit quaint, but I did join up and learn a trade and I'm grateful for that. Would I join up now . . . unequivocally no. What would I do instead - wow, that's the tough one, frankly I don't know.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up - that's one of the better things about some folks on the site. Not everyone can do that without a slanging match.

Take care.

[Onceapilot]

No, and I don't think they would have me with 4 "O's" and a CSE in maths!

[teeteringhead]

Well said high spirits:ok:

And these days they wouldn't make me fly upside down at 30 000 ft before letting me near a helicopter! ;)

[Rigga]

"Here's the exam question for the nay sayers out there:

What would you do instead?"

I'm doing exactly what I want to...and to a level that suits me, not the RAF.

I answered earlier implying that I believed the (justifiably required) Rank structure and the snobbery that comes with it, holds people back. Since leaving the RAF in 1999 as a Sgt, I have been working in aviation positions equivalent to OC Eng (or whatever today's name is) or higher and with probably more responsibility than they have.
If I told you my title, military folk might just sneer because it is something you have but you treat it with contempt and generally ignore it. Civil aviation folk would not sneer - and some might even move back a step or two.

I am grateful for the training and confidence the RAF gave me - I enjoyed much of my time in the Mob as many here have also said. However, I am not sure new entrants would get anywhere near similar treatment and I believe the status of servicemen nowadays is only a tadge better to being long-term unemployed. I don't think there is any security in any jobs - military or civil and, with the loss of any tangible care or benefit for being a serviceman/woman and the current out-sourcing to FTR and Reserve service, the whole military ethos is being undermined.

Again, No. I would not join up now and I would not advise anyone to do so. But I would not prevent anyone from doing that if they really wished to ('Cos that's what my parents (who were both ww2 combatants) did for me when I was young).

[orca]

But that's the point isn't it? You are now able to do a job which in all respects equals that of an OC Eng because of whatever 'right stuff' you had to start with and how it was formed by your service...and you reached Sgt...so any wonder you have leadership, supervision and management squared away.

The thread is about what would you do now as a school leaver. Join or not? My question - if not, then what? Not now, as someone who clearly excelled in the RAF. What would you do now as a (theoretical) 16-18 year old that gets you to 'what I want'.

[BEagle]

high spirits, this thread was quite polite until your inappropriate rhetoric appeared.....:(

Nevertheless, I grant you that the rotary world has indeed been busier in recent years than hitherto. But quite what do you expect to be doing once the UK pulls out of the North West Frontier war, as surely it will?

teeteringhead, in my day anyone daring to suggest that they'd sooner fly a helicopter than fly upside down at 30000 ft would have their attitude seriously questioned. Probably unfair, but that's the way it was back then. And anyone on our JP course expressing a wish to fly multis would certainly have been viewed as being distinctly suspect with a whiff of LMF about them. Turning a Gnat inverted at FL450, pulling to 30º below the horizon, barrelling to 40º and watching the little thing go supersonic was something we were all expected to prefer to chugging around in a Whirlwind or Wessex* - or to becoming a co-pilot.

In fact after one hard day at Brawdy, whilst making himself a cup of tea, our Flt Cdr jokingly remarked "If you think this is all TFD, you can always volunteer for helicopters". 2 students took him at his word and were off the station soon afterwards........to become navigators :\

However, à chacun son goût.

*Other rotary types were also available....I think?

[high spirits]

Beagle,
It wasn't inappropriate to suggest that your assertion that the RAF was ruined in the mid 90s was just plain wrong. If it was regarded as LMF to go rotary or multis in your day, that just shows how one eyed some of your generation were. Try suggesting that AH and MERT are tasks that could be carried out by the spineless.

As to what helicopters will be doing post AFG, read your recent history. Helicopters have been involved in pretty much everything from anti piracy ops to disaster relief, as well as in conflict. You are either anti helicopters because you don't understand their utility in Air Power, or you are just jealous because we are still a branch of the military that knows how to have a great time.

Either way, rotary remains a very sought after and popular first choice of many joiners today, and that is what this thread is about.

[BEagle]

high spirits, please disabuse yourself of the notion that I am 'anti-helicopters'. That is simply untrue. But your comment that I was 'talking hoop' was certainly inappropriate.

Yes, we were 'encouraged' to be FJ-centric in my day, rightly or wrongly. That's the way it was.

Using RW aircraft for anti-piracy and anti-smuggling tasks certainly seems an excellent future role, assuming that the aircraft are adequately equipped and that the UK wouldn't try and do it on the cheap.

A branch of the military which still knows how to have a great time? That's probably subjective - but enjoy it anyway.

[teeteringhead]

teeteringhead, in my day .... bless you BEags, but I think you'll find "our days" were probably the same!

Of the 3 (all keen volunteer) rotary postings from my JP course, one became a 4-star, one a 2-star .... and I haven't done too badly myself! None were invited to retrain as directional consultants.

And for our rotary brethren (and sororiety), flying on operations is nothing new; my first three tours, covering 1970-76, all involved me (at least potentially, often actually) in being on the wrong end of someone else's ammunition. I recall in Norn Iron on my second tour sitting in some god-forsaken FOB Portakabin watching a televison documentary on the (Gnat-equipped) Red Arrows, where one of the team said:

"..and of course we are the only Squadron (sic) in the RAF who are actually doing what they are trained for!" :yuk:

On that same tour, returning hurriedly from Londonderry to Ballykelly having come under small-arms fire, I overheard a Valley Gnat on guard. First of all the bumbling, tongue-tied stude cocking up his Practice Pan, then the same-callsign-different-voice Sky God in the back seat doing a perfect PATHASATNIE - one could almost hear the "for :mad: sake Bloggs, this is how you do it!" on Intercomm between the transmissions, probably accommpanied by a firm slap on the bone-dome..

Being of a reflective nature even then - albeit quite scared at the time - I pondered that not only did those guys not know what another part of the RAF was doing at the very same moment not 150 miles away, they probably never would .... When were you at Valley BEags? ;)

So FJ-centric it was then, is now, and probably ever shall be. But being legally authorised to a min ht of 0 feet - latterly at night also - IMHO beats your "little thing going supersonic" 7 miles up. But horses for courses, we will always need both, and animosity between forces only provides fuel for those who wish to see the end of an Independant Air Force.

I think too you are being uncharacterstically optimistic if you think "small wars" will cease with the withdrawal from Afghan. Moreover, with the notable exception of Libya, rotary has normally been "first in last out" on operations. Who knows where the next Op will be..... but it will need SH.

It's always the "unknown unknowns" that get us ........

And to avoid the accusation of Thread Drift, I answer the OP's question with a "yes" - but I probably wouldn't stay as long - although my SSC DEC "B" is getting a bit long in the tooth now......

[Pontius Navigator]

According to today's Torygraph, the AFG of post 2014 may look little different from today.

The Afg Army will be offered air support. Air support needs a base. A base needs defending. CSAR will be required. That base will need supporting, etc etc.

What will change will be the active patrolling that the Army is doing now.

The airbase however will need an outer defensive perimeter at whatever distance the bad-guys can reach. Dien Bien Phu springs to mind.

[high spirits]

Beagle,
Anti piracy, anti smuggling and worldwide disaster relief are not 'future roles'. They are just some of what helicopters of all services have done and continue to do. Witness RN mk1 Merlin, SK4 and Lynx off Africa, RAF disaster relief ops in Pakistan and Mozambique. All done in addition to conflict in Middle East, West Africa and the Balkans since I joined.

I firmly believe that I take a more balanced view of the original question than you. Why? Because I still serve and can comment on the 'now' part of the question than purely the 'you' bit. I think that your judgement has been clouded by one-eyed idiots (JP QFIs) who belong to yesteryear.

It's still a good place to be, and an exciting job that is suitably paid. Like all jobs, it has its good and its bad at times. But, it still attracts the same calibre as ever; there are just fewer seats. I would have my time again - definitely.

[Party Animal]

Beagle,


assuming that the aircraft are adequately equipped and that the UK wouldn't try and do it on the cheap


Do be serious old chap! ;)

[BEagle]

When were you at Valley BEags?

1975



.

[Blacksheep]

chugging around in a WhirlwindBeags: On 32 Sqn in the seventies, one of our Whirlwind pilots was a Korean War F86 veteran with Mig15 kills to his credit. Over in the other hangar, one 207 Sqn Devon pilot was a WW2 veteran of 303 Squadron with Heinkel, Dornier and Bf109 kills. There's no need to wrinkle one's nose at helicopter and multi piston pilots. :=

[Roland Pulfrew]

Blacksheep

There's no need to wrinkle one's nose at helicopter and multi piston pilots

To avoid this becoming a witch hunt, which it was never meant to be, that isn't what BEagle is doing. What he is saying is that when he went through training (just after the war) a desire to be anything other than a fast jet pilot was frowned upon. Please note that BEags isn't saying that he thought people had LMF for wanting to go ME/RW but the system viewed it that way. To be honest, when I went through training in the 80s it was still the same; it was fast jet and nothing else. The view was, rightly or wrongly, that only those who couldn't make the grade as FJ pilots went ME or RW. Sadly for me, my brain didn't work at 7 - 9 miles a minute and I only really cracked 5 - 6 miles per minute, so ME for me and lots of global sight seeing.

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed. I can't see what BEags said that provoked all this. As Roland said, he was recounting the way things were, not expressing his own opinion.

RTFQ

[Whenurhappy]

An update ....Would I encourage youth today to join?


Crash Minor has just joined CCF (RAF) and done his first AEF at Leeming (and enjoyed it immensly). Would I encourage him to join in a few years? Defnitely....as it will stop him from raiding the Bank of Mum and Dad in years to come.

[Pontius Navigator]

when I went through training in the 80s it was still the same; it was fast jet and nothing else. The view was, rightly or wrongly, that only those who couldn't make the grade as FJ pilots went ME or RW.

The logic for everyone going fast-jet was the need for more fast-jet pilots (and navs) than ME/RW.

It was also perceived that the young man wishing to train for ME saw this as an easy option for gaining ME hours and a civvie licence.

[BEagle]

Roly, you'll pay for that! 'Just after the war' indeed!! Still, I'm glad that both you and Courtney were able to understand my point...

The logic for everyone going fast-jet was the need for more fast-jet pilots (and navs) than ME/RW

When I arrived at Cranwell as a Flt Cdt, from a typical pilot course perhaps 3 went to Valley, 1 or 2 to Ternhill and 9-10 to Oakington. But by the time I'd wasted the Queen's money at University for 4 years, everyone was expected to go to Valley - or to be restreamed. The very small residual requirement for additional ME or RW trainees was made up from those who were suspended from FJ training. Indeed in 1976, unless you'd made it to a FJ OCU, you were unlikely to be restreamed ME and the wretched Jestreams were actually taken out of service for a while. Some refresher training for those returning to ME squadrons was outsourced to the Beech Baron at (I think) Hamble.

[turbroprop]

Great read. I started the post after trying to explain to a Polish handling agent that Fog was know as ground crew sunshine thus allowing me to go on the pop as I had no aircraft to play with. What I have learned is that there are plenty in the Mob who enjoy their service and you can not really compare my time in with the present. When I talk with my neighbours lad I am certainly no going to use the phase or anything like it " I MY DAY.........". Just encourage him to enjoy it and take what he can in they way of training, sports etc.

[teeteringhead]

BEags no offence intended my old, I suspect I was at the time of the from a typical pilot course perhaps 3 went to Valley, 1 or 2 to Ternhill and 9-10 to Oakington. I was on a course which finished with 17 (started with lots more !) at Syerston. Of those we had 4 to Valley, 3 to Ternhill and the rest to Oakington.

[45 before POL]

Would I do it again if I was 18? I would have to say yes, would I have stayed longer?(10yrs) No. I enjoyed the time, yes it maybe different now but that's with any role in life, it changes/evolves. I learnt quite a bit. Met good friends and some nobbers too.
The RAF helped build a foundation of skills along with awareness of integrity/loyalty....and how i hate being late....no one irons my shirts but me....the list goes on.
I wouldn't have got to where I am now without it as helped set a direction in a trade and career.

[Tiger_mate]

FWIW I am detecting another phase of military life unfolding and not a welcome one. There is a growing trend that is quite possibly 'blame culture' under the banner of Duty Holders numerous and various. Added to this that it is not necessarily the man at the top who will 'carry the can' when something contentious unfolds. I do not see this being a productive development for it may encourage risk averse leaders. I could be wrong, for I often am, but watch this space for I think that not only has a 'Can-do' attitude had its day, but also there maybe a future in store in which many will not make decisions without top-cover. The morale is, dont look back but worry for the future.

[Pontius Navigator]

TM, blame culture was rampant in the 70s so nothing new there. Sqn Cdrs were fired left (and maybe right and centre) if one of their blokes screwed up. BoI would go through a sqn with a finer tooth comb than a pre-AOCs uncovering any evidence of slackness or whatever which resulted in the dismissal of the sqn cdr and sometimes stn cdr too. That was why people like the B-word and J-P at Lossie were such . . . . . . . s as they feared for their careers.

You can imagine the culture to which that led.

[Red Line Entry]

Fully agree with PN. In comparison with 20-odd years ago, I think the operating culture we have today is far, far better and thus safer than it was in the past. That's not to say people don't get sacked these days (as a certain field-leading sqn has discovered), but it's not the instant scapegoating that used to occur.