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The Blimp
20th Nov 2012, 12:31
From breakingnews.ie
'Hero' passenger helped land plane at Dublin Airport | BreakingNews.ie (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hero-passenger-helped-land-plane-at-dublin-airport-574862.html)

It has emerged that a passenger helped to land a plane at Dublin Airport early yesterday morning.

The Lufthansa Boeing 747 was en route from New York to Frankfurt with 264 passengers on board when the first officer became "incapacitated" while it was flying over the Atlantic.

Once the crew announced that the plane was being diverted, the passenger asked why, and offered his assistance.

The German national, thought to be a qualified pilot, then helped bring the plane down safely in an emergency landing at Dublin Airport shortly before 6am yesterday morning.

The Air Accident Investigations Unit is examining the incident.

Kevin Doyle of the Evening Herald said that Lufthansa has branded the helpful passenger a "hero".

"The understanding is that the passenger in question was an off-duty qualified pilot who had some experience with a different airline, so he has no connection at all with Lufthansa, but he had flown planes in the past," he said.

"Lufthansa said that they were very lucky to have a man with his qualifications on board at the time."

The Air Accident Investigation Unit (AAIU) of the Department of Transport has been notified and is investigating.

Experts from the AAIU attended the plane after it touched down in Dublin.

“Whenever you have any sort of medical issue on board, whether it’s a doctor or appropriately qualified person, that’s always appreciated. The flight would have been operated as per procedures and safely even if the off-duty pilot had not been there,” the Lufthansa spokeswoman added.

blissbak
20th Nov 2012, 12:43
Does Lufthansa operate the 747 with a 2 men crew only?

Dan Dare
20th Nov 2012, 12:48
Lucky it wasn't a british airline or the captain would already have been sacked for letting someone in the flight deck without a high viz jacket and hand-written authorisation from the home secretary.

hetfield
20th Nov 2012, 12:49
Does Lufthansa operate the 747 with a 2 men crew only?

Why not..?

paparomeodelta
20th Nov 2012, 12:53
If he is a qualified pilot, why is he then branded as a hero? Helpful, ok, but...

thegypsy
20th Nov 2012, 12:56
Cannot imagine he did anymore than read the checklist.

Blind Squirrel
20th Nov 2012, 12:58
The death-defying superhero who saved everyone from a fiery/watery/shamrock-adorned grave (insert cliche of choice from the Lazy Journalist's Air Crash Story Generator here -- The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator (http://radans.net/jens/planestory.html)) by bravely reading the landing checklist was himself a licenced and rated B747 pilot.

"It was a miracle," said a source involved in the operation. "It had all the elements of a Hollywood movie but thankfully one with a happy ending."

A Lufthansa spokeswoman said the man who stepped in was fully licensed to operate and fly the 747.

Hero passenger helps land plane in airport emergency - National News - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hero-passenger-helps-land-plane-in-airport-emergency-3300858.html)

aterpster
20th Nov 2012, 13:00
Let it go folks. The media has long since reduced itself to the equivalent of Mad Magazine.

tom775257
20th Nov 2012, 13:02
"Lufthansa said that they were very lucky to have a man with his qualifications on board at the time."

Are they insane? Are they saying that a single crew situation in Lufthansa would generally cause disaster? Or is it some arse covering as to why the captain let a non-company pilot into the cockpit.

bermudatriangle
20th Nov 2012, 13:02
our company sop for pilot incapacitation,requires a cabin crew member to occupy flight deck jump seat and read out landing checklist.thats it.
cannot see any need for a non company pilot to become involved,unless both operating crew are incapacitated,then it is a script for a disaster movie.

Phileas Fogg
20th Nov 2012, 13:06
What about the "incapacitated" First Officer, is he alive or dead or doesn't his liveliehood sell newspapers?

:mad: press :)

NigelOnDraft
20th Nov 2012, 13:10
Interesting one... Yes the SOP is to land 1 Flt Crew, 1 CC on J/S reading checklist.

However, given the further emergency (ill F/O), unfamiliar airfield, if I was made aware of a qualified on type pilot on board, it would be a triumph of bureaucracy over commonsense / airmanship to leave them down the back?

JW411
20th Nov 2012, 13:11
I wonder if the passenger had consumed any alcohol?

jcjeant
20th Nov 2012, 13:14
"Very lucky" would have been more appropriate .. if the other pilot had also suddenly been "incapacitated" :)

wannabe024
20th Nov 2012, 13:18
NOD,

Really?

As JW said had he been drinking? Qualified on the 744? Licence and documentation with him? Familiar with company SOPs? Are you aware of the individuals training history?

Could he be a Walter Mitty?

Way too many variables to make it a no-brainer I'd think.

Personally, unless the situation was incredibly dire, I'd go with company rated, sober and current given the choice.

misd-agin
20th Nov 2012, 13:35
Emergency authority of the PIC. Analyze the situation and take appropriate action. The Captain did. He took the best qualified assistance he had.

ODGUY
20th Nov 2012, 13:37
Having been in this scenario over the Atlantic, I have to say that I did not have a cabin crew read out any checklist nor help in any cockpit duties. Her only responisbility was to look after the incapacitated captain.

Our cabin crew had never been taught to read a checklist nor understand when to challenge or respond. I only had 400 hours on type at the time of the occurence, but felt that flying single pilot was safer than having someone read a checklist for me for their first time, while dealing with an incapacitated captain (high stress level for her).

I believe it should be at the pilot's discretion to use any means available to them at the time, in order to manage the situationa and workload. However, to make it an SOP... :=

Lonewolf_50
20th Nov 2012, 13:43
I am trying to understand the criticism of the captain's decision.

paparomeodelta
20th Nov 2012, 13:58
Lonewolf

The problem is that this passenger could be a clever, lying piece of s...t, trained on MS Flight Simulator, looking for an adrenalin kick, 15 minutes of fame and a story to lighten up his miserable life.

In best case.

He could also have been suicidal poor bastard, with revoked license longing to end his life in an epic pilot´s way, or why not high as a kite from sniffing cocaine as dessert, and eager as hell to show how to master a 744.

Or whatever else you can come up with.

Left Coaster
20th Nov 2012, 13:59
Where I come from, a Hero saves lives, or makes many lives better by their actions, or influences huge life changes for those who can't do it for themselves...Assist the Captain with a checklist? Helpful maybe, but no...he's not a hero. (One fellow does come to mind when I think about helping in an emergency and being off duty at the time...Denny Fitch...you might call him one!)

lederhosen
20th Nov 2012, 14:30
Accepting the usual newspaper hyperbole and the airline attempting to put the best spin on things (neither of which is exactly surprising) I am amazed by the downbeat tone of the majority of responders. The captain seems to have used common sense.

Most of us carry identification and the idea of Walter Mitty types drunkenly loitering with intent outside the cockpit door on the off chance someone is going to go sick is just ridiculous. He may not be a hero, but he certainly seems to have been helpful. I think a first class upgrade on his next LH flight would certainly be in order.

NigelOnDraft
20th Nov 2012, 14:30
As JW said had he been drinking? Qualified on the 744? Licence and documentation with him? Familiar with company SOPs? Are you aware of the individuals training history?

Could he be a Walter Mitty?

Way too many variables to make it a no-brainer I'd think.

Personally, unless the situation was incredibly dire, I'd go with company rated, sober and current given the choice. I'd agree it is not a no-brainer.

It will be via the CC you are made aware of their existence, so they will be the first assessment as to sober(ish) and character. I doubt I'd need to see their licence, and not interested if familiar with company SOPs - we're hardly following them single pilot as it is.

You will have to brief and discuss the role of the pax with them.

Google gives:# - CHECK IF A TYPE QUALIFIED COMPANY PILOT IS ON BOARD TO REPLACE THE INCAPACITATED MEMBER.and the presence of any type rated company pilots on board ascertained.

Interestingly our QRH gives more latitude, but I will not quote from here. Boeing 737 NG FCTM:...consider using help from other pilots or crewmembers aboard the airplane

Durban
20th Nov 2012, 14:37
How the Irish Rag chose to describe things is their ugly business. This captain made a brilliant decision which resulted in the desired outcome. Well done to him!

RetiredF4
20th Nov 2012, 14:45
The problem is that this passenger could be a clever, lying piece of s...t, trained on MS Flight Simulator, looking for an adrenalin kick, 15 minutes of fame and a story to lighten up his miserable life.

In best case.

He could also have been suicidal poor bastard, with revoked license longing to end his life in an epic pilot´s way, or why not high as a kite from sniffing cocaine as dessert, and eager as hell to show how to master a 744.

Or whatever else you can come up with.

That´s paranoia.

Let us look it from the cbin side. You are a qualified pilot (like in this case it seems to be) and are sitting in the cabin and being made aware of a problem in the pointy end. You offer your help and the remaining SOP slave rejects it. How would you feel, and how would other passengers, who sure get some information as well would feel for the remainder of the flight?

Even if he is not qualified on type he but a rated pilot on another type he will read a checklist better than a not trained cabin crew member, will be able to monitor communication or even be able to take over communication.

Are we that far degenerated, that a captains decision is not respected and questioned to death?

jetopa
20th Nov 2012, 14:59
Give him a pad on the shoulder, an HON-Circle card with unlimited miles and everybody's happy.

Maybe that's what be was interested in in the first place...?

casablanca
20th Nov 2012, 15:05
I am surprised they are flying Newark to Frankfurt with a 2 pilot crew...what is the time limit for that in Germany?

Bearcat
20th Nov 2012, 15:10
Letting a non company employee sit at the controls of an aircraft ? Doesn't matter if they are chuck Yeager .....I think the capt will be in a world of manure over this.

Denti
20th Nov 2012, 15:16
Why would he? Mohamed Atta didn't win over here like he did in the US or the UK.

Very sensible use of available resources apparently.

Luke SkyToddler
20th Nov 2012, 15:26
Ha, all the spotters and enthusiasts and aerosexuals who comprise 90% of the forum these days must be absolutely wetting themselves with excitement reading this, they all dream about exactly this scenario.

Personally speaking, unless the guy was rated and experienced and could verify such by producing a licence or company ID, I'd far rather single crew it, or get a cabin crew up to read the checklists, it's hard enough flying with a type rated min hours cadet, let alone a want-to-be-helpful pax. There's just way too many risks and unknowns with letting someone in the flight deck who might or might not be what they claim. Would be way much stress watching them like a hawk to make sure they didn't push any buttons they weren't supposed to. Far easier to follow the SOP, call the mayday and do the single crew divert

brakedwell
20th Nov 2012, 15:30
I am surprised they are flying Newark to Frankfurt with a 2 pilot crew...what is the time limit for that in Germany?

Not a problem, it's only a seven hour flight. We used to operate Munich - Los Angeles (B767) with a 2 pilot crew using Austrian flight time limitations.

bluecode
20th Nov 2012, 15:44
None of the aerosexuals or spotters or enthusiasts would be asked to join the Captain. Nor indeed would any non airline pilots.

I find the negative comments surprising. Apparently some of you who claim to be airline pilots cannot give the Captain the benefit of the doubt and trust his judgement. At the very least the passenger would have had company ID and it's entirely possible he was carrying his licence. All of which could be forwarded to the flight deck by the CC without any security risk. Plus a two minute chat would have established whether he was the real thing or not. If you were truly paranoid a call to company to establish his bona fides would be relatively straightforward.

Is is safer to sweat it out single pilot into an unfamiliar airport while a fully qualified type rated pilot sat in the back wondering at your paranoia? :ugh:

Lurking_SLF
20th Nov 2012, 16:06
At least the Irish Times makes it sound a little less like a Michael Bay Film....
Off-duty pilot assists in Dublin landing (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1120/breaking32.html)



Lurking...

hetfield
20th Nov 2012, 16:08
Would love to fly with that CPT.

Good decision making:ok:

reverserunlocked
20th Nov 2012, 16:11
The detail is sketchy but I'm fairly sure the helpful passenger was more than simply a Flight Simmer or spotter and was well able to identify himself as such. Clearly the Captain felt his presence was welcome or he'd not have asked him to go up there. Any rated pilot would be able to handle the RT, find the charts, run the checklist, keep a look outside and act as a spare pair of eyes.

We don't know who this guy was. He could have been anything from a Cessna FI to a Space Shuttle commander but the Captain felt his contribution was valuable so let's give him the benefit of the doubt, no?

goudie
20th Nov 2012, 16:15
As a previous poster mentioned, this man was a real hero, in assisting the pilot of a crippled aircraft

Dennis E. Fitch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_E._Fitch)

Durban
20th Nov 2012, 16:20
Sioux City!

It turned out that one of the passengers on board flight 232 was Dennis Fitch, a United training and check pilot with over 3,000 hours on the DC-10. Haynes asked Fitch to go back and look out the windows to check for any structural damage. When Fitch returned to the flight deck, he informed Haynes that the both of the inboard ailerons were sticking up, but none of the controls appeared to be damaged or moving.

Haynes asked Fitch to take control of the throttle levers to allow the crew time to sort out the other decisions they were facing. Fitch knelt down in front of the controls and began to work with the throttles to maintain control of the aircraft. During this time, the aircraft had completed two slow right turns while descending. Calling Sioux City approach, Haynes requested the ILS (Instrument Landing System) frequency for runway 31 (9,000ft).

AirDisaster.Com: Special Report: United Airlines Flight 232 (http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-ua232.shtml)

icemanalgeria
20th Nov 2012, 17:41
I travel as passenger too much, with many airlines these days sending crew in economy. very very few companies upgrading colleagues from other airlines and even worse not even giving extra legroom seats.

Will Lufthansa be the first major airline to change course, Give upgrade to qualified crew...... I don't hold my breath

Uncle Fred
20th Nov 2012, 18:01
Claybird is correct from what I remember. A flight attendant did come up to the jumpseat upon an event/incapacitation involving one of the pilots. Lots of good reasons for this--for one, this "extra" can communicate with the cabin as to expected landing time, intentions after landing etc. whilst the captain (or remaining pilot) works on flying and landing.

Sure one can operate single pilot but good resource management is just that--resource management. Use the assets at hand to ensure a safe completion of the flight segment. I have no doubt that our LH colleagues handled this in textbook fashion and made it a non-event--a Bravo Zulu to them.

I do think Dan Dare does bring out of good point however. Did this relief pilot have his hi-viz vest and ear defenders? What if he had slipped through security with a tube of lip balm or eye drops in his pocket...

racedo
20th Nov 2012, 18:08
I wonder if the passenger had consumed any alcohol?

Probably no more than the rest of the flight crew....

Agaricus bisporus
20th Nov 2012, 18:09
Some of the comments on this business simply beggar belief!

Imagining any security hazard from allowing access to the flight deck under such circumstances indicates not just a shortfall in but a complete absence of understanding of both the nature and appreciation of the risks involved in non crew access to the light deck.

Suggesting its better to get CC to read a checklist is better/safer/more desirable than having a pilot - even a PPL - in the second seat is hard to comprehend - how could it possibly be better to have a non pilot there than a pilot, even if he is not qualified on type? I cannot think of a single reason.

Suggesting that said pilot needs to be qualified and current on type again beggars belief. Why? You'd turn away a type rated man because he was not current? Holy sheet! You'd turn away a Dash 7 FO if that was all you had to pick from? I can't understand that. Especially if you put a cabin crew in the seat instead - that would be crazy!

Even a PPL understands the use, importance and protocols of checklist use, cabin crew don't. I know this is an old chestnut but surely getting someone with no knowledge to participate in a checklist is more hazardous than using someone who has some knowledge? Personally I think it's far - vastly - more likely to end in confusion if you use CC than if you do it on your own if there's no one else to help. But give me a PPL over that - at least he knows about lookout, can listen to RT, read an altimeter, identify a runway etc.

Oh - and why "only" 2 pilots Newark to Frankfurt? I take it some of the opinions here aren't from pilots - can't think why they are posting here in that case. Buddy, ever heard of Ryanair, Easyjet etc? They fly 5 days per week with duties 30% longer than that - with 2 pilots. As do scores of other airlines.

Haven't some people just let rampant paranoia and out-of-context "security" dogma take over their judgment? Scary.

Isn't all this just the most basic airmanship?

Oops! Bugger! I said it again. I'll get my coat...

racedo
20th Nov 2012, 18:13
I am trying to understand the criticism of the captain's decision.

Me too.................Pilot in charge, makes decision, lands plane, passengers safe.

Not really sure what else there is to add.

Loose rivets
20th Nov 2012, 18:17
There seems to be the general assumption that the remaining pilot will be okay. Murphy is just waiting for such scenarios and will apply Sod's law in an instant if the mood takes.

Let's just hop the poor old FO can keep his medial.

Sober Lark
20th Nov 2012, 18:17
A Lufthansa Boeing 747-400, registration D-ABVH performing flight LH-403 from Newark,NJ (USA) to Frankfurt/Main (Germany) with 264 passengers, was enroute over the Atlantic Ocean when the first officer became incapacitated due to severe head ache. The captain continued the flight to Dublin (Ireland) where the aircraft landed safely. The first officer was taken to a hospital.

A replacement crew was flown to Dublin and continued the flight reaching Frankfurt with a delay of 8 hours.

The airline confirmed a sudden illness of the first officer and later reported an off duty Boeing 767 captain of another airline volunteered and was accepted to assist for the remainder of the flight.

simmple
20th Nov 2012, 18:27
The captain made a decision..all turned out ok
End of story
Can't believe the criticism

racedo
20th Nov 2012, 18:28
The airline confirmed a sudden illness of the first officer and later reported an off duty Boeing 767 captain of another airline volunteered and was accepted to assist for the remainder of the flight.

Yeah how dare he as he is not capable of flying a 747 because he flew a 767. Everyone knows that every airline has different aircraft and no pilot would be capable of transferring his skills to another aircraft.
He also must be breaking the law as he is not trusted to be in the big pointy end :rolleyes: (some the little sarcasm guy doesn't really sum my post up enough).

Reckon it took the Captain all of 10 seconds to suss out whether the guy was a Walt or knew what he was doing at the sharp end.

Captain acted as I would have expected him to, Guest Pilot acted as I would have expected a professional to and reckon both will be dining out on it for a while..........enjoy it as you did the right thing.:D:D:D

Hedge36
20th Nov 2012, 18:45
In the event that my assisting pilot (also known as first officer) became incapacitated, I would definitely NOT summon external assistance from outside of the flight deck due to the obvious tragedies which were a direct consequence of the September 11th attacks. A captain should be fully capable of handling the flight on his own and unlocking the flight deck door may encourage any would be terrorists on board to attempt a hijacking.

Perhaps a disciplinary or even dismissal is needed for this so-called captain.

MHB
A340 Driver


And with this singular post, we see positive evidence that the terrorists have indeed won.

yippy ki yay
20th Nov 2012, 18:51
Perhaps a disciplinary or even dismissal is needed for this so-called captain.

Great idea - can't be having the captain engaging his brain and using his judgment can we?!

Agaricus bisporus
20th Nov 2012, 19:03
Its more than slightly worrying that someone claiming to be an A340 driver can be so confused about probability and risk. That is a pretty extreme level of irrationality!

Bloody scary in fact.

wiggy
20th Nov 2012, 19:04
Don't feed the Troll.

grimmrad
20th Nov 2012, 20:27
ODGUY

why not asking if a physician is on board instead of having a flight attending attending to the captain (no pun - oh well, maybe...)

bubbers44
20th Nov 2012, 21:48
The movie Airplane would make it a tough call if you are deflating.

The captain did what was safest for the flight and most US pilots would do the same. He could have continued the flight by himself and landed but did the safest thing and had a competent pilot in the empty seat to help.

Captains are required to use good judgement and he did. The hero thing the press put out is over the top but what else do you expect? CRM would agree 100% with his judgement.

DiCaprio
20th Nov 2012, 22:03
Have been listening to Irish media coverage all day: even I, as humble SLF, know that this situation was a fair distance removed from the 'narrowly avoided disaster' depicted by the hacks.

Got me thinking, though: given millions of flights per year, the possibility of BOTH 0a and 0b occupants going tits up cannot be completely discounted. What happens then? Can ground operations in any way control the aircraft? I guess the Helios crash would suggest not...but if so, why not?

david1300
20th Nov 2012, 23:50
Happened a while ago, and apologies if this has already been discussed:

"The flight from Newark to Frankfurt on November 19 was diverted to Dublin after the co-pilot suffered an incapacitating migraine.
Luckily there WAS an off duty pilot on board. A North American Airlines Beoeing 767 captain stepped up to the flight deck when requested. The hero pilot was also fully licensed to operate and fly the 747.
On landing the injured pilot was taken to hospital. The passengers waited for six hours for a replacement crew member to be flown in."

Full story here: Ladies and gentlemen is there a pilot on board? | The Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/travel/news/ladies-and-gentlemen-is-there-a-pilot-on-board/story-e6freqwo-1226520825312)

Despite the efforts of the media trying to make this a scare story, I felt all credit to the airline and the crew. Just wish they would report the positives more positively.

Load Toad
21st Nov 2012, 00:33
It has been discussed before - as has the definition of 'hero'.......

Capn Bloggs
21st Nov 2012, 01:04
No FO? No standard calls! Yippee! :ok:

Sober Lark
21st Nov 2012, 06:34
DUB is an excellent choice for such situations as from his office MOL can test his idea of 'taking out the second pilot and letting the computer fly it'.

55Jay
21st Nov 2012, 06:50
"The captain made a decision..all turned out ok
End of story
Can't believe the criticism"
:D
Making up all sorts of after the fact "what ifs" to a situation that happened and DID turn out ok, is a great opportunity for some to demonstrate their supreme knowledge of aviation from the comfort of home; is exactly the same thing done by the often despised SOP Writing Management Monday Morning Quarterbacks; can often be the very same folks who criticise the media for hyping up what they call a fairly mundane aviation related story for ratings.

Covered all around. Job security.

scotbill
21st Nov 2012, 07:58
The armchair bureaucrats speculating on drunks/terrorists/Microsoft aces masquerading as 767 pilots are overlooking the obvious fact that the passenger concerned would be listed on the manifest as staff and very possibly identified as "Captain".
Given Boeing commonality, any pilot opting to operate as a one man band when such professional assistance/monitoring was available deserves to have serious questions raised as to his/her airmanship.

Groundloop
21st Nov 2012, 08:05
Why have some people brought up the Sioux City incident? Dennis Fitch worked for United and was known personally by the operating crew. He was not a stranger of unknown capability.

It is a completely different scenario.

wiggy
21st Nov 2012, 08:08
Scotsbill

:ok:

Early newspaper versions of the story carried this comment, or similar.

The pilot was identified through the passengers’ list

Which seems reasonable, credible and sensible ;).


That now seems to have morphed into "can anybody here fly an airplane" :eek:.

Capn Bloggs
21st Nov 2012, 08:29
In the event that my assisting pilot (also known as first officer) became incapacitated...unlocking the flight deck door may encourage any would be terrorists on board to attempt a hijacking.

Perhaps a disciplinary or even dismissal is needed for this so-called captain.

Remind me to steer clear of your outfit...

Is there anybody on board who didn't have the fish?!

DaveReidUK
21st Nov 2012, 08:30
DUB is an excellent choice for such situations as from his office MOL can test his idea of 'taking out the second pilot and letting the computer fly it'.

Just the second pilot ? Don't be silly, by now MOL has probably read this post:

Can ground operations in any way control the aircraft?

:)

DX Wombat
21st Nov 2012, 10:50
The hero thing the press put out is over the top but what else do you expect?Especially when they are probably trying to wipe the egg off their faces after the Radio Amateur fiasco and divert people's attention elsewhere. ;)

Capn Bloggs
21st Nov 2012, 11:05
this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flight deck in the interests of safety.
We're talking about including the pax on the flight deck to help out.

Left Coaster
21st Nov 2012, 11:20
Groundloop...Denny Fitch was mentioned because his actions were heroic...the guy in this thread was a "helper"... Not a Hero...Although I'd be willing to wager he might be a little embarrased at being tagged as one by the media! :p

Lukeafb1
21st Nov 2012, 13:37
Without wading through the whole thread, in case I'm duplicating another post, I notice that none of accompanying photos on the myriad of articles on this 'dire emergency' actually shows a 747. There are many assorted other aircraft, but no 747s. Don't journos know what one looks like, or will anything with wings do? I'm looking forward to the first Jetranger photo (well, it is an aircraft isn't it?:p).

DaveReidUK
21st Nov 2012, 13:46
If it were a U.S. incident, he would also be in the CASS, thus ensuring he's legit.

Not necessarily, according to the criteria in your previous post:

In the U.S. there is CASS (Cockpit Access Security System). Any airman jump-seating or dead-heading on a plane is required to log on to to CASS

Judging from the reports, the individual in question was travelling, off-duty, as an ordinary fare-paying passenger. At any rate he clearly wasn't in uniform or readily identifiable as an airline pilot until he made himself known to the crew.

So, if it had been a US airline and the captain had been playing it by the book, the guy would never have made it onto the flight deck - for better or for worse.

DX Wombat
21st Nov 2012, 13:49
1 Don't journos know what one looks like, or 2 will anything with wings do?
1 - Quite possibly not
2 - Yes, usually, saves them having to think too hard. :rolleyes:

wiggy
21st Nov 2012, 15:08
So, if it had been a US airline and the captain had been playing it by the book, the guy would never have made it onto the flight deck - for better or for worse.

Worrying (isn't it?)

Call me old fashioned and maybe I'm missing something but surely all this learned discussion about the likes of "para 6.9 (iii) subparagraph x, sub-sub para y" is still trumped by Rule One, the one that goes something along the lines of "...the captain will make whatever decisions need making and take whatever actions need taking in order to achieve a safe outcome to the flight...."

yours

"Old Fashioned"

DaveReidUK
21st Nov 2012, 17:09
no matter if a pilot is flying off duty (jump-seating) or on duty (dead-heading)

OK, I guess we were divided by a common language.

I had taken your reference to jump-seating to mean just that - sitting on the jump seat, which our guy clearly wasn't doing, nor dead-heading on duty travel.

But any professional aviator, even when paying a full fare ticket, makes his presence known because he knows there might be an emergency and his services might be required.

Yes, it would be good to think that was the case.

highflyer40
21st Nov 2012, 18:56
I'm sorry, but who goes around introducing themselves as pilots everytime they fly on their own dosh? I'd be mortified as toe it would look like trying to curry favour.

Agaricus bisporus
21st Nov 2012, 21:39
Of course, again, we're talking about Europe, with different sets of rules and regulations, I realise that, but i cannot think of any airman who wouldn't notify the captain about his presence on the aircraft before the flight.

Wow! Just shows the gulf of comprehension that exists across the Atlantic. I suppose just occasionally someone sticks his head round the door and says "hello, I'm with XXXX how are you guys doing" but that's in the same spirit as pilots passing in a hotel lobby.
I can't think of anyone who would notify the captain that he was on board in the snese you're referring to. Been flying commercial for 20 years and never come across even a reference to this before. First I've ever heard of it. Sorry, doesn't happen in Europe. At all. You'd be flagged to the entire crew as an utter weirdo if you did, that's for sure. That really would be pure Walter Mitty territory.

highflyer40
22nd Nov 2012, 07:21
you keep mentioning deadheading or jump seating. what if a bloke and his family are just going on holidays? would you still introduce yourself? if someone did that on my flight I would pretty much think they were pretty far up their own ass!

Agaricus bisporus
22nd Nov 2012, 10:19
I hadn't realised the US jumpseat system was so formalised. What a wonderful thing it would be to have that in Europe. Although we can position while on duty - and that doesn't mean commuting home - on our own airline without a ticket; have to be ticketed at all other times.

For our US cousins info this can't happen here for various reasons. The punitive passenger taxes in Eu make it illegal to carry pax without paying it and that can only be done by purchasing a ticket. Airside access via your id card when not on duty would be taken very seriously indeed so can't be done - there is no other way through without a ticket. Very few airline would carry another's crew foc anyway when they could be taking money for a ticket, indeed the feeling in my company is that they'd rather take money off us than give us a ticket. No doubt there are companys that turn a blind eye to pilots travelling on the buckshee, but in the PC-crazy egalitarian-obsessed UK the idea that pilots might have 'privilege" (a word with almost foul connotations these days) unavailable to the ground staff would be highly contentious. That's the joy of the stifling dead hand of the Eu.

paull
22nd Nov 2012, 11:29
Someone said 'what is the risk that Walter Mitty just happens to be hanging around waiting for someone to get sick?'

Probably pretty slim, but if you asked me to arrange for the F/O to be slipped something in his coffee so that I could get access to the flightdeck I could do it. All you need is:
1- Know were the crew usually stay
1a- probably even check with them "hey guys are you the ones flying me back to Frankfurt?
2- An accomplice in the kitchen, or to be fairly sleight of hand.
3- A drug with some delayed effect - pretty simple to get right for a long flight.

Like I said before if you choose someone to let into the flight deck then the odds are heavily on your side. If THEY get to choose, beware!

F/O Sick AND loony on board, normally say (1/10000) x (1/100)

In my scenario its (1/1) x (1/1) and even a one-man terrorist organisation should be able to pull that off. After-all if you don't manage to administer the drug, try again tomorrow, provided you have an open ticket it does not even cost you any extra!

wiggy
22nd Nov 2012, 11:51
2- An accomplice in the kitchen, or to be fairly sleight of hand.

I think I might have spotted the one tiny flaw in your cunning plan :rolleyes: Most crewmembers are to tight to pay hotel rates for food, so you'd better plan on to staking out every McDs, stalk the crew from Diner to diner, or worse still source their source of food for Delsey dining.

fyggy
22nd Nov 2012, 11:57
didn't the report say it was migraine ?

SLFguy
22nd Nov 2012, 11:58
"Originally Posted by Mayday Hit Birds

In the event that my assisting pilot (also known as first officer) became incapacitated, I would definitely NOT summon external assistance from outside of the flight deck due to the obvious tragedies which were a direct consequence of the September 11th attacks. A captain should be fully capable of handling the flight on his own and unlocking the flight deck door may encourage any would be terrorists on board to attempt a hijacking.

Perhaps a disciplinary or even dismissal is needed for this so-called captain.

MHB
A340 Driver"

Has there been some ninja deleting of posts? :rolleyes:

aer lingus
22nd Nov 2012, 12:04
The F/O suffered a severe migrane attack. The off duty pilot was 747 rated, not sure if he was company.

DaveReidUK
22nd Nov 2012, 12:27
Has there been some ninja deleting of posts?

Yes, after the wannabe flier was outed he either deleted all his posts himself, in various threads, or it was done for him. All that's left are a few quotes in other posters' responses to his.

paull
22nd Nov 2012, 13:34
I think I might have spotted the one tiny flaw in your cunning plan Most crewmembers are to tight to pay hotel rates for food

Brilliant Wiggy, we can now use this in the risk mitigation plan to justify paying your food/drink out of the ever expanding Security budget. ;)

highflyer40
22nd Nov 2012, 13:36
paull - why bother buying a ticket at all. just slip them both the "delay acting" drug and sit back and watch CNN! (just incase some don't get it.. I'm taking the piss)

I really can't get my head around some people's obsession with security. yes something happened 12 years ago, but if people keep this up its as if your already beaten.

You could remove the flight deck door on every aircraft in the world for a year and nothing would happen. bring back the days of allowing the crew to invite pax to the flight deck

Dushan
23rd Nov 2012, 01:38
Hmm... JFK to FRA, day before Thanksgiving? Where is chuks? Chuks? was that you? Hero? Was the aircraft banking to and fro 30 degrees?

BRE
23rd Nov 2012, 09:39
Now if he could have flown for free international on his own or any other US airline except AA, why would he have bought a LH ticket?

DaveReidUK
23rd Nov 2012, 09:58
Now if he could have flown for free international on his own or any other US airline except AA

What makes you think that ?

BRE
23rd Nov 2012, 10:14
What makes me think that? Post 79 by Claybird:
"(...)
Now, in the extreme case a pilot neither jump-seats nor dead-heads (which is unusual for US carriers because -with the exception of AA- they provide unlimited flying privileges to flight deck crew both domestic AND international flights) then flight deck crew travelling as regular pax are required to notify the gate agent AND the captain, if possible, of their presence on the aircraft.
(...) "

But then, if it sound too good to be true, it probably is...

Left Coaster
23rd Nov 2012, 10:54
I don't think that's exactly right...it's more like positioning (in uniform maybe?) to a base of operation and to start work...not for holiday flights...If it was for recreational use, there has to be a ticket and taxes etc have to be paid...maybe some one who actually does it can set me right? As for notifying the Captain... Is that an FAA requirement? I fly quite a few sectors as a passenger in and out of the US (and the rest of the world per year) both positioning and on leave and have never felt it was required...don't want to bother anyone and I like my privacy! :cool: Cheers...
LC

DaveReidUK
23rd Nov 2012, 10:55
OK, I had understood that post to be a reference to duty travel.

It's hard to see how any US airline could make money if all of its flights were full of freeloading aircrew on vacation.

Sober Lark
23rd Nov 2012, 14:19
From an insurance point of view: Migraine is characterised by recurrent headaches with visual disturbance and nausea. Attacks can vary from one to two a year to several times a week. The duration and severity of attacks also vary and severe attacks can last from six to eighteen hours. Certain factors can trigger migraine - bright sunlight, stress, certain foods (chocolate, cheese) are all factors. Treatment by tablet form generally relieves all symptoms. Prognosis is good unless a major underlying cause is present. Wishing him/her the best.