"The Development of the Angled-Deck Aircraft Carrier"

[India Four Two]

I've just stumbled on this really interesting paper. Here's the first paragraph:
In late 2006, Andrew Marshall, the Director of the Office of Net Assessment in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, asked us to answer several questions:Why had the Royal Navy (RN)developed the angled flight deck, steam catapult, and optical landing aid before the U.S.Navy (USN) did? Why had the USN not developed these innovations, which “transformed carrier design and made practical the wholesale use of high-performance jet aircraft,” in parallel with the RN? Once developed by the RN, how had these three innovations “jumped the gap” to the USN?

http://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/afe51317-dabb-4379-b802-79eb1d9815fc/The-Development-of-the-Angled-Deck-Aircraft-Carrie

The paper is a summary of part of this longer paper on the same subject:
U.S. Naval War College | Innovation in Carrier Aviation (http://www.usnwc.edu/Publications/Naval-War-College-Press/Innovation-in-Carrier-Aviation.aspx)

[Old-Duffer]

Whilst asking these questions, another query ought to be added. It is: 'why did the US Navy presist with flight decks which were not armoured when the Brits introduced it on their carriers?'

Old Duffer

PS This is not intended as a finger poking contest but as a serious question. Inventions happen anywhere and in any field and they are subsequently taken forward, improved and developed, often by others and not the inventor. The Brits have certainly invented many things but then failed to capitalise on the invention, which has been developed elsewhere.

[teeteringhead]

One was slightly surprised when visiting the Pensacola Museum to see their preserved WW2 carrier flight deck - consisting of wooden planking.

But then I suppose that was arguably ahead of Fighter Command's contemporary grass strips/

[irishair2001]

The idea behind wooden planking on the flightdecks of WW2 carriers,was because battle damage could be repaired easily and quicker in theatre,rather than having to put into port and carriers or their support vessels always carried a supply of planking for that purpose

[FlightlessParrot]

IIRC, I read an account somewhere that argued that an unarmoured deck enabled the carrier to be less compromised as a ship, and for more aircraft to be carried. Trade off, as usual, and it rather looks as though the USN got it right.

I read this argument on-line somewhere, so I'm sure Google will find it--would be interesting to hear a critique.

[Old-Duffer]

Not convinced the US Navy did get it right at the time.

Their carriers were particularly vulnerable to aircraft crashing on or through the deck - both their own and Japs during the Devine Wind period.

There are many advantages of planked decks but the US Navy did lose quite a few big carriers destroyed by fire. After losses in the Med and Indian ocean, I can't recall the Brits losing a big (relative terms) carrier to direct enemy attack but I haven't checked this morning so i could well be wrong!

Old Duffer

[Load Toad]

Wasn't going for armoured also a negative effect on speed...? I reckon in hindsight the USN would have preferred armoured....?

('I reckon..' showing I have no real idea.)

[Old-Duffer]

Load Toad,

Please don't be defensive with your posts. We none of us have cornered the market in the 'infinite wisdom' stakes and everybody has an opinion as valid as the next guy/gal.

Old Duffer

[BobM2]

There are many advantages of planked decks but the US Navy did lose quite a few big carriers destroyed by fire.
Us Navy only lost 3 fleet carriers in WW2, all in 1942, & all of which were pre-war builds under the weight restrictions of various naval treaties of the 1920's & 30's. All three were sunk by torpedoes. The 24 Essex class carriers were the first built without the treaty restrictions & none were lost during the war. The Essex class located the armor on the hangar deck rather than the flight deck which made the ship 1,200 tons lighter, lowered the cg for better maneuverability, & allowed more aircraft to be carried.

They were hardly an inferior design.

[david parry]

The were many fires onboard USS Carriers all wooden flight decks i think??Kearsarge , Oriskany and Forrestal and Enterprise spring to mind

[BobM2]

Yes, but Forrestal & Enterpise have all steel armored flight decks. Did they fare any better?

[Old-Duffer]

I think this is fairly accurate:

Let’s just get the USN fleet carrier losses etc in WWII straight, if we may please.

Lexington: Torpedoed but also bombed and major fires started which ignited the aviation fuel. Eventually sunk by five torpedos from the USS Phelps.

Saratoga: Effectively crippled by kamikazes in Feb 45.

Yorktown: Although eventually sunk by torpedos, she had already been crippled by a mix of torpedos and bombs.

Hornet: lost at Santa Cruz, mainly as a consequence of torpedo hits.

Wasp: sunk by USS Lansdowne after torpedo hits but was consumed by fire beforehand after enemy attack.

Langley: hit by five Jap bombers off Java and sunk by USS Whipple.

Old Duffer

[BobM2]

I think this is fairly accurate:

Let’s just get the USN fleet carrier losses etc in WWII straight, if we may please.

Old Duffer
You're right, I had forgotten about the Wasp, also sunk in 1942 in one of the fierce sea battles for Guadalcanal, another of which claimed the Hornet.

But... the Saratoga was not sunk, was still able to land aircraft after the attack & was repaired & back in service by June '45.

The Langley was converted to a seaplane tender in 1937 (AV-3) & was not a fleet carrier when sunk.

So FOUR fleet carriers were lost by the USN, Lexington, Yorktown, Wasp & Hornet, all in 1942 & all prewar builds which suffered from weight restrictions imposed by interwar naval treaties.

The fact remains that no USN carrier built after the treaty limits expired (Essex Class) were ever sunk & their ability to carry more planes, more fuel, & achieve greater speed & maneuverability was a fair trade-off for the lack of an armored flight deck.

[Old-Duffer]

BobM2,

Thanks for clarifying my earlier post regarding carrier losses and the improvements which made the Essex class more resilient and flexible in use.

There are very few preserved warships in UK and I think the only vessel of any size and consequence which served in WWII is HMS Belfast - I expect there's the odd motor gun boat somewhere. There are also a few ships which are moored up and used as HQ ships (HMS President????). I am ignoring HMS Victory and Warrior in this.

In the USA, I seem to recall hearing of at least one carrier that is now a museum and I expect there will be other capital ships still extant. Any lists available please?

Old Duffer

[Load Toad]

For you OD...

US Navy Museum Ships (http://navysite.de/specials/museumships.htm)

Preserved Naval Vessels in the US (http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/preserve.htm)

[4Greens]

Had a gliding instructor in my youth called Nick Goodhart. In his spare time he invented the mirror landing system.

[Old-Duffer]

Load Toad,

Thank you for posting those lists. An impressive array and much longer than I had imagined.

I understand that the USS Arizona is still regarded as an 'active' vessel, if that is the correct term and that, inter alia, there is still a 'colours' ceremony morning and evening.

Old Duffer

[DaveReidUK]

I understand that the USS Arizona is still regarded as an 'active' vessel

It's a designated war grave and memorial, the resting place for the remains of several hundred of crew whose bodies could not be recovered in the aftermath of the explosion.

[India Four Two]

The USS Lexington, in Corpus Christi, is well worth a detour, if anyone is visiting Houston or Dallas.

There are tours of the ship and there is an excellent collection of 20 aircraft, including an F-4 with a very strange cockpit profile. I asked a museum volunteer about it and he told me it was a prototype F-4 (http://usslexington.com/aircraft/f-4a-phantom-ii/).

We continued chatting and when he found out that I was originally from England, he gave me an enthusiastic history of the British invention of the angled-deck, steam-catapult and mirror-landing system.

[Kitbag]

Original proposal by McDonnell to the USN of the F 4 had it as a single seat as well as two seat aircraft.

[Jarvy]

Let me help, I am a volunteer on the Intrepid in NYC and also the only 'Limey' volunteer.
As said before the wooden deck was used for ease of repair and it also meant a lower centre of gravity. Those that have been to the Intrepid will note that it has a metal deck, this was put on over the wooden deck by the museum for protection.
Intrepid is an Essex class carrier and it wasn't until the late 50's that the angled flight deck was fitted to allow the aircraft to go round if they missed the cables. It also had the advantage of allowing launch and recovery at the same time. The wooden deck was used throughout her service (until 1974) even with the later jets. She even did trials with F-4's which although successful were never used.
Intrepid was originally fitted with hydraulic catapults later replaced by steam.
During WWII she was hit 4 times by Kamikaze aircraft which on 2 occasions passed through the flight deck into the hanger deck.

[Johnflex]

I was grateful for our armoured deck when on HMS Hermes. On the 4th Sept 1962 a Sea Vixen crashed on deck when attempting to land at night. My cabin was immediately under the deck at the intersections of the centreline and no.1 wire. I awoke six inches above my bunk due to muscle spasm and adrenaline. The deck suffered only minor dents and scoring. Unfortunately the Vixen and its crew were lost.