AIP Overissue

[rockiesqiud]

Ladies and Gents. First can I apologise if this has been brought up before but I've not logged on for a while. Having been made redundant on the 1st September, I have recently received from SPVA a letter demanding repayment of over £1880. The letter only gives dates and no reasons or justification for the repayment. I was warned on my last day that CAS has decided that all AIPs from 2006 should be audited. As I had my application not only approved by my OC but unit's PSF, I'm confused how this is my fault. From my point of view, they seem to have changed the goal post denying that NCAMT pt1 is no longer a management qualification. Does the Royal Air Force not have Vicarious Liability. SPVA were not particularly useful and I'm relying on my old units PSF. Has any other Tranche 1 redundancy had any demand and if so how did you correct this? Many thanks for any help.

[Avtur]

Surely if you were awarded an AIP for having completed NCAMT Pt 1 then you should be entitled to utilise that money without risk of having to repay it. It is not as if you have been overpaid and deliberately failed to fess up.
Yes, I get the "its tax payers money" retort that will inevitably follow, but it was authorised and paid in good faith iaw extant T&Cs (as were all the failed acquisition monies over the decades that were not required to be repaid). If it is subsequently found not to be iaw the T&Cs at the time, then the individual should not be liable to shoulder the responsibility, and the cost should be written off.

Apart from the MT standing for management training, it has always been considered a management training qualification since its inception as the AACMT course at Hereford in the late 80s, so I fail to see how they could magic up that excuse.

All that said, I would suggest a quick chat with citizens advice or a legal dude to confirm your rights/position in parallel to seeking confirmation from previous hand brake house entities. You may have to pay it back and then sue in the small claims court??

Good luck.

[Tiger_mate]

AIP was never particulary well managed and it took a lot of digging when I pursued using my second AIP a few years ago, an objective that I never achieved. I recall that the only way for NCA to get an AIP was by the following:

QHCI
Q-SAR (paramedic?)
Q- CSRO dont know if that was updated to SERE
Q-HTI

The FEng and AEOp trades had similar highly specialist qualifications, but as you can see, there were/are very few that you can use. None of them were IIRC management courses. Also you could only claim one AIP per rank level, so although I have two of the above list, I could only claim one AIP. In short it was far from an effective process and the OP story was inevitable dor some almost certainly driven by a PSF person to busy to look up the rules and taking the easy option of 'yes itll be fine unless someone higher up the food chain in the know over-rules me '

In summary, we can sympathise all day ( and I do ) but you are being shafted and I doubt there is much you can do about it. There was another thread here when this was announced some time ago. I think that the Navy and submariners in particulary were the catalyst for this kicking off.

[Tiger_mate]

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/484301-over-paid-fifteen-years.html

[Tiger_mate]

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/494329-raf-coppering-up-pennies.html

[Wensleydale]

As a dumb question..... Was the AIP payment taxed as income? If so, then even if it has to be paid back then surely the tax can be reclaimed? I don't know the answers, so feel free to shoot me down.

[SARREMF]

You need to get into Government accounting procedures. I believe chapter 17 and look up Estoppel. You had an expectation the money was yours. You used the money and thus would suffer hardship if you had to return. If you can prove you had every right to believe it was your correctly that should give enought doubt to overturn. I won a case for one of my guys in 2001 using the argument and lots of photocopies etc worth a try. Challenge it. Then challenge it then challenge it again.

[rockiesqiud]

Many thanks for all the helpful advice. As I'm still looking for a job, £1884 will be difficult to find. PSF at my old unit have said that no decision whether to demand the money back or not has been made. So I wonder why I received a demand? I don't want to go down the legal route but I can't see any other way. Surely the cost of man hours of this "witch hunt" out ways the money returned. Again thanks for the help.

[MFC_Fly]

As a dumb question..... Was the AIP payment taxed as income?
An AIP means simply that you have gained some qualification (in the eyes of the admin staff at that time, but now apparently, in some cases, you either didn't or the goal posts have been moved!) to increment to the next level of pay, before you would normally do so. It is not a one-off payment, it is your basic pay but on one level higher than you would get without the AIP. So in answer to your question, as it is just normal basic pay, yes it is taxed.

[Pontius Navigator]

The letter only gives dates and no reasons or justification for the repayment

First step, challenge the reasons and justification. Make the b*ggers work for the money.

I continued to be paid for 2 months after I retired until I told them. They then demanded repayment of a sum that I contested and demanded that they prove it. I got about £25 interest while they faffed around.

Eventually, after I demanded a copy of the pay manual the penny dropped at their end and they 'proved' their calculation which previously they had failed to do.

[Whenurhappy]

RS:

I have before me a report written in September referring - in passing - to the AIP matter:
As a result of inconsistencies in the way that Additional Incremental Payments have been awarded, an audit is underway going back to 2001, potentially identifying up to ₤30M in overpayments. A total of 16,000 accounts are being checked manually, with the Audit Team to report by the end of the year; however units have been slow in furnishing returns. Debt recovery has been suspended subject to a response from a Ministerial Submission; of the 20% of records that have been audited, 3% have been identified in error (some have been under payments). The Audit is made more complex as some units have aligned with Army policy on APIs which is briefer and open to more liberal interpretation.
Given that you have received a demand for recovery, I suspect that the Minister has directed recovery action. Nonetheless, you received this money over an extended period in good faith (and spent it likewise) and you are being asked to resolve the consequences of the actions (or inactions) of others and will be financially embarrased in the process. It could be argued by the MOD that you are holding monies to which you were not entitled and thus cannot claim to be financially disadvantaged as a result (indeed, you may have benefitted from the interest accruing on these 'overpayments') but, frankly, if you do not agree to pay the monies back, they would need to seek civil recovery action through the Courts, and the outcome of that is far from certain from the MOD's point of view.


Seek advice from CAB or a friendly lawyer.


Were you, by any chance, at an Army dominated unit where the AIPs were awarded along Army lines?

[downsizer]

The ministerial decision has not been made. I know, I'm waiting to see if they take money back from me...

[Whenurhappy]

Thanks for that - although it doesn't affect me I am surprised that recovery action has been initiated before a Ministerial decision has been made on what is a very sensitive issue.

[downsizer]

The debts have been placed on payslips for potential future recovery. No recovery has started until the ministerial decision.

On a plus point a couple of my JRs have had circa 1800 notes each refunded....which to my mind means they will recover the money as the refunds have to be funded somehoew.

[essexlad]

I got an email from psf at the end of september stating that all AIP's from 2006 were being audited and that proof of completing the course i did to gain that AIP needed to be brought to them by no later than mid october. And that if i had failed to supply evidence of completion that they may recover any money gained using it. Did they not atleast contact you asking to provide evidence before a snotty demand for money came through the post?

[November4]

an audit is underway going back to 2001,

That's is every AIP being checked then as that was the date AIPs were introduced under Pay 2000.

[Vitesse]

Possibly it would be wise to contact the folks concerned and advise them that if any money is genuinely owed you'd be willing to return it by installments.

Certainly ask them to justify their demands.

If you can show that you've been willing to make repayments it'd be a bugger to force you into one lump sum. Try attending court one rainy Monday. See how they handle non-payment cases.

[rockiesqiud]

Again many thanks for the replies and advice. I'm still waiting for all the documentation before I push towards the CAB/legal route. As I'm currently unemployed, the courts might get about £1 a month of me:{. But I've informed my old unit that if the NCAMT PT 1 doesn't count then my appointment of lead acoustic operator 3 years before should count. Would I be in line for a refund? Somehow I doubt it.

[TheWizard]

RS,

Assuming from your posts that you are NCA then these were/are the only AIP's specifically available for NCA. Not sure who advised you about NCAMT PT1 (or NCACMT as was) but they were wrong AFAIK. Looks like your Lead Acoustic Operator does count but I don't think you will be able to claim now you are out of the Service :uhoh:

Direct from JSP 754


Trade Group N/A Trades Non-Commissioned Aircrew: WSOp (Aco), WSOp (Cmn), WSOp (EW), WSOp (L) & WSOp (Air Eng)

Q – PI – C
(Sgt only)
Management or trade related S/NVQ Level 4.
Foundation Degree in Applied Aviation Studies (awarded by University of Derby).
Foundation Degree in Professional Aviation Practice (awarded by University of Derby).

Diploma in Information Systems (awarded by the Open University).

Q – PI – D
(all ranks)
Management or trade related S/NVQ Level 4. Any other S/NVQ Level 4 or above that is eligible for funding via the SLC scheme.

Foundation Degree in Professional Aviation Practice (awarded by University of Derby).

Diploma in Information Systems (awarded by the Open University).

In addition the following professional qualifications are deemed acceptable and have been approved by the Non-Commissioned Aircrew Branch Sponsors:

WSOp (Acoustic) and WSOp (Electronic Warfare):

1. Lead Operator (Nimrod MR2).
2. Link Manager (E3).
3. Rack 1 (Nimrod R).
4. Upon completion of the AIC and 18 months instructional duties.

WSOp (Linguist):

1. Rack 1 (Nimrod R).
2. Master Search Operator and Voice Supervisor (Nimrod R).
3. Second Language Qualification.

WSOp (Crewman):

1. Upon completion of the AIC and 18 months instructional duties.
2. SAR Winchmen who are EIEC (Extended Immediate and Emergency Care Qualified – S/NVQ Level 4 status).
3. Upon completion of the QHCI/QHTI Courses and 18 months instructional duties.

WSOp (Air Engineer):

1. Upon completion of the AIC and 18 months instructional duties.
2. CAA accreditation – JAR FCL 4.


Notes:
1. Q-Cat-DS will become a mandatory qualification for Q-PI-A with effect from 01 Apr 06. (Once the training backlog has been overcome).
2. Q-Cat-ADS will become a mandatory qualification for Q-PI-B with effect from 01 Apr 06. (Once the training backlog has been

[Avtur]

"WSOP (Linguist): Rack 1 (Nimrod R1)."

Clearly the person who wrote JSP 754 didn't know who did what on the R1.

[rockiesqiud]

The Wizard. That's the form I was given the day I left the RAF. I was told that as the NCAMT is a management course and a requirement for promotion to FS that I could claim an AIP with it. If I was given misleading information then surely PSF would turn the application down? If they are demanding a repayment while I'm out of the Service, I believe that I should be able to amend the paperwork to my benefit. If I remained in I would be able to fight my corner face to face via PSF. Unfortunately, I don't have these facilities. If they would give me the relevant documentation then I could fight my corner. I'm waiting the reply from my old unit. Fingers crossed.

[November4]

Wasn't there also a line about any other qualification that the trade sponsor deemed suitable to the job role?

[rockiesqiud]

My trade sponsor has told PSF that my previous course doesn't count towards an AIP. Funny how the previous one did.

[Cornish Jack]

A word of caution re. repayments by installments. I am in the process of repaying an overpayment following my divorce. The overpayment resulted from my solicitor not passing on Pension change notification.
I eventually agreed to repay at a fixed monthly rate ... good, yes? No!!! the repayments are being taxed at normal rates before going back to the pension people. The original overpayment was taxed and the repayment similarly ... Same money but taxed TWICE??? Can't see how to avoid this other than coughing up a large lump sum initially. Thoughts, anyone??

[rockiesqiud]

As I'm unemployed and rely on my pension do they still have a claim on it? Would it be worth while contacting the "Forces" newspaper? Some people may find that disloyal but where was the RAF's loyalty to me?

[lj101]

Rockie

I found this web site link.

SupportLine - Problems: Armed Services and Ex Services: Advice, support and information (http://www.supportline.org.uk/problems/armed_forces.php)


Good luck.

[rockiesqiud]

Lj101. Many thanks for that. All help is gratefully accepted.

[lj101]

Pleasure

Just checked out your local MP (assuming Odiham)

James Arbuthnot MP (http://www.jamesarbuthnot.com/type3.asp?id=90&type=3)

What does James do? Well, his first priority is representing his constituents and over the course of a typical working week James will write over a hundred letters or emails on their behalf to ministers, local councils and other external agencies raising issues of both local and national concern.

Based in London, Monday through to Thursday, in addition to the usual votes, debates and questions which most MPs attend, James splits his time between constituency-related matters (meetings, lobbying and briefings, for example), and work associated with chairing the Defence Select Committee. The Committee’s main role is to hold the Ministry of Defence to account, and through evidence sessions, visits and correspondence they frequently issue reports on a variety of defence-related matters, analysing current policy and practice. On Friday and over the weekend, James is back in the constituency, visiting, supporting and listening to the views of local people.

There is a link to contact him too.

[thing]

"WSOP (Linguist): Rack 1 (Nimrod R1)."

Clearly the person who wrote JSP 754 didn't know who did what on the R1.

I don't think even the front end crew knew who did what in the back end of an R1.

[Tiger_mate]

I believe it is only a non-commissioned thing. From a period in time when the military rewarded those that go the extra mile to enhance their career. Times have changed though, and it appears that some in the pecking order begrudge those who put their head above the parapet; when it was impossible to claim an AIP without HR/PSF manual input/authority. Retrospective audits like this do much for morale.

[Sloppy Link]

Hmmnn...there has to be a read across with http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/501807-flying-pay-shambles-again.html that affects us Army types.

[Belle and Sebastian]

Tis true. It only affects the non-commissioned fraternity. Even though my pay-chit says that I have 2 AIP awards available, it isn't going to happen!

[TheWizard]

Extract from JSP754 - Accelerated Incremental Progression

General

03.0603. In addition to Yearly Incremental Progression (YIP) (see Section 4), an individual may be awarded Accelerated Incremental Progression (AIP) as an incentive for the attainment of key qualifications required by the individual Services. The effect of such AIP is the reward of an ‘immediate increment’ so that the Incremental Base Date (IBD) for YIP is unaffected.

Eligibility

03.0604. Subject to 03.0607 below, the award of AIP is made as follows:

a. The qualifications that generate the award of AIP must be relevant and meaningful and support individual Service trade structure requirements. The determination of what constitutes a relevant and meaningful qualification, within a trade rank structure, is a matter for single-Service consideration and determination, with an overview by DCDS(Pers) Pay & Manning. The relevant qualifications for each Service are set out in Annexes A-C. For Army personnel, payment of an AIP is an automatic process driven by receipt of the first Class 2 and 1 qualifications awarded respectively. RN/RAF personnel gaining a listed qualification are entitled to apply for the award of an AIP which will be backdated to the date of obtaining the qualification (see 03.0604d) providing the application is submitted within 6 months of the qualification date.