Jobs go at OATS

[sally at pprune]

I just came across this thread, when doing a search.

(click here) (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13945&pagenumber=3)

I'm considering spending quite a lot of time & money with OATS (or is it OAT?). Should this affect my judgement? Some of the posters seem to be OATS instructors, so they must have inside knowledge.

What do you think?

:confused:

[Timmy O'Tool]

Hi Sally,

I have spent tens of thousands of pounds with OATS over the years and have consistently been treated appallingly by them as a company; however the standard of instruction is in my opinion some of the best around and the instructors are a great bunch.

I was at Oxford this week when around twenty-five instructors received letters telling them that they were to be made redundant, some of them with large mortgages etc, I felt very sorry for them especially when you see how they are treated by the powers that be.

Be very careful…!

Ps, Good luck to the twenty-five that are now looking for a job.

[Hyph]

Hi Sally,

I wish I'd read your message before I went to the training exhibition at Heathrow today. Doh!

OAT were running high on my preference list... right up to the point that I read your message. I'd rather find out now than after committing my money.

I shall be quizzing them at length on this and a number of other matters now - not that I would have gone and spent that kind of cash without checking them out, just now it'll be the fine-toothed comb job.

Hmmm... makes choosing an FTO even more difficult!

Very interesting - thanks for posting it.

Ivan.

[sally at pprune]

Hello Hyph

I quizzed them about it today, but didn't learn anything that the Fylying Instructors thread hasn't already said. I noticed that most exhibitors had lots of flying instructors on their stands, but OATS none. I don't think the guy I spoke to appreciated my comment that it must be because they'd all been made redundant, but I guess these are sensitive times for them.

I thought that the show was good - bringing lots of the schools together. I don't know if it has got me any closer to making decisions though.

[rebeccadblake]

I think the ground school will always be around, although the flying side has earnt itself a bad name.

If your going to spend money there, I would just do the ground school, I dont think they will be going bust any time soon, they have far to many students going though them, and as I saw about 3 weeks ago, most of there short and long term courses get booked pretty quickly, Unlikely that side will be going under.

Although quite a few people have recently been saying that the flying side is awful, and not worth the money that people are paying for it.

Hope this info helps.

Beckxy

[oxford blue]

I've laid off until now, because I didn't want to be seen to be rushing in to defend OAT, right or wrong. I do try to apply judgement to my posts here and not try to defend the indefensible.

But I do think that the thread here has missed the point. OAT has a reputation for an excellent ground school, excellent professional standards from the flying instructors, but a poor reputation for getting the students out on time. Many people also think that it has had crap management.

Recently the management has changed. Be under no illusions - they are well aware of the above comments - they read pprune, too.

Accordingly, they have decided that things have got to change. One of the problems is that so many people want to come to Oxford - and never forget that this is part of the problem - unlike any other FTO in UK. This means that the combination of UK weather and the number of aircraft they have often results in people passing out late.

They have recognised this, and have decided to do something about it. They are exporting all of their VFR and some of their IFR training to the USA. They have gone to the trouble and expense of buying their own airfield in Texas, which is dedicated to Oxford students - it's very name is Oxford Tyler, not just Tyler, as previously. This has 2 advantages - 1) the weather is far more predictable - especially in winter 2) it costs less per flying hour in USA and they can therefore avoid putting the prices up for longer.

The consequence of that is that they now need fewer flying instructors as Oxford. They have therefore laid some of them off. This is not a decision that they take lightly and they recognise that it causes great personal pain for some individuals. It would be wonderful if it were possible to make an omelette without breaking eggs. Unfortunately, it is not.

I feel desperately sorry for those individuals who have been made redundant. Some of them are good friends of mine and I know the pain. But if they were kept on, it would increase the fees to YOU, the student wannabes. The truth is that, if UK Oxford is only going to do IFR from now onwards, they need fewer instructors. It does NOT mean that the company has got the skids underneath it - it means that management is taking a realistic grip on future requirements, to ensure that Oxford stays in business, that the gripes that have previously appeared on pprune are being addressed and that YOU get better value for money.

Sally - be ruled by your head and not your heart. The fact that Oxford are laying UK instructors off ( whilst actually taking on USA instructors - which doesn't get reported on pprune) - means that you are going to get better value for money - no matter how painful it is that good friends of mine have lost their jobs.

And no, I'm not management. I'm a rank-and-file Oxford instructor.

[rolling circle]

Sally -

I suppose it was only a matter of time before the Oxford propaganda machine got to work on this thread and, had it not, I would have kept my counsel. However, let's have both sides of the argument, shall we?

I baled out of Oxford just over a year ago, after some 7, or so, years of service because I could see the writing on the wall. A number of other very experienced flying instructors had, by that time, already left. It was apparent to all of us that the people making the decisions did not really understand the problem and, as a result, OATS was headed for trouble.

As an aside, it is intriguing that one of the decision makers of that period, who also baled out, has now been re-employed as the MD - but that's another story.

Let's take Oxford Blue's points in turn:

Recently the management has changed. See above, the management of two years ago has been re-instated.
One of the problems is that so many people want to come to Oxford - and never forget that this is part of the problem - unlike any other FTO in UK. This means that the combination of UK weather and the number of aircraft they have often results in people passing out late. Because you want to go to Oxford, It's your fault you can't complete your course on time? I don't think so - bad management of the resources has always been OATS' main problem. Also, the premise that no other school in the UK has to turn away prospective students because it is over-subscribed is both exceptionally, but predictably, arrogant and just plain wrong.
They are exporting all of their VFR and some of their IFR training to the USA Where they are using low hours (cheap) FAA instructors who have little idea of what life is like in European airspace. I don't want to get into the FAA/JAA argument, it's purely a matter of relevant experience.
They have gone to the trouble and expense of buying their own airfield in Texas Well, they've bought a hangar and a portakabin - not exactly an airfield.
This has 2 advantages - 1) the weather is far more predictable Yes, it's located between Hurricane Alley and Tornado Alley, perhaps Oxford Blue would care to tell us how many days flying were achieved last month.....or perhaps not.
The consequence of that is that they now need fewer flying instructors as Oxford. Or, even, at Oxford. Typo's apart, the bottom line is that they have been able replace expensive UK instructors with cheap FAA instructors. OATS' costs have gone down, along with the quality of instruction and so, of course, the cost of the course has gone down....hasn't it?

Don't be fooled by any OATS propaganda, their marketing department has been shown repeatedly to have , at best, only a passing acquaintance with the truth. If your initial stats are to be believed then OATS compare rather unfavourably. When I left their employ, the CPL Skill Test results were about the average that you quote. However, bear in mind that the CPL Skill Test is conducted by OATS' own examiners. It may or may not be significant that the IR Skill Test, conducted by independent examiners, showed a first time pass rate little more than half of the average that you quote.

Get the information - visit the schools - make your decision. There are plenty of options, following the crowd is not necessarily the best of them.

[BEagle]

If Oxford intend to become 'IFR only' from now on, where do they think that they'll be conducting their training approaches? Oxford has no ILS and the only approach is based on some beacon in Mad Jamie's back garden.

I have no connections with Jerez, but from what I have read, it seems a far, far better set up for a full CPL/IR with ATPL knowledge than doing your basic VFR training in the US and then your IFR element at the mud and gravel of Kidlington International.

Jerez is only a short, direct flight with buzz from Stansted and has excellent facilities - in a JAR member state!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I couldn't possibly comment :o

WWW

[Tosh McCaber]

Oxford Blue

Are FAA qualified instructors qualified to train Oxford students in America for JAA qualifications?

Why not offer the sacked instuctors posts over there. I was told that Oxford certainly did have instructors there before, on their previous set-up, where PT1 training was carried out.

[Cruise Alt]

Be warned when talking to OATS about your concerns. Their pre sales and after sales procedures definitely don't come from the same manual! One thing I have found flying training is don't believe it until you have done it! And don't believe their b******s about finding you a job after you have finished. They do however use their "connections with airlines" as a threat any time you make any complaint about your treatment. I mean you wouldn't want a bad reference would you.....

[Megaton]

And, if you check their Tyler webpage http://www.oxfordaviation.net/oxford/modular/tyler_cpl.htm, they offer an outrageously expensive CPL and have the cheek to claim they include landing fees in the price! OATS marketig are a bunch of cowboys and the weather in Texas may be suitable almost every day of the year but it's not suitable all day. Every morning this week there's been a heavy overcast with cloud base around 2-3000 ft. And when a frontal system hits Texas there will be no flying for days or even weeks. Caveat emptor.

[pilot1]

Hi Sally

Just read you comments about OAT. Although I have no direct experience of Oxford, I do have experience of flight training in the USA.

Weather is great, but generally the standard of flight training received from low time FAA instructors falls way short of the UK requirement, irrespective of who sends you there. Hence, you need extra time back home to get up to speed and pass those expensive UK Tests. Result nil cost saving in the long run.

[oxford blue]

Rolling Circle

What ‘propaganda machine’? Where is the heavy hand of Oxford marketing in this thread? I’ve made it clear that I don’t work in the marketing department and that I’m writing as a private individual. If you find it necessary to resort to personal abuse in your post, it suggests that your arguments are weak. This is correct, they are.

The ‘decision maker’ to whom you object left because he thought the company was heading in the wrong direction – as you evidently did. BBA has now removed the previous MD and given the previous Director of Training the job, thereby vindicating him – there is no inconsistency or repetition of previous errors here.

Tell me what other school in UK has to turn away prospective customers – come on, name names. You can’t.

And are you telling me that US flying instructors are no good? Because you’re a British instructor, you’re that much better? I don’t think many Americans would agree with you. And then you accuse Oxford of arrogance? Of course it’s possible to run training up to PT3 in the USA with no dilution of standards – especially as the standards set-up is all UK Oxford. They can ensure that FAA-trained instructors deliver elementary training to JAA standards.

I have addressed the IR pass-rate on a previous thread. The national average, and the figures quoted by many other schools include re-treads and ex-military conversions. All Oxford students are ab initio.

BEagle

There is no shortage of ILS-equipped airfields in the Oxford area. And many pilots would say that if you can fly a locator approach properly, you’ll find a ILS much easier by comparison. As for the Jerez weather, I am not into the business of knocking competitors – unlike many of the other contributors to this thread. However, I think that you will find that every school has problems of weather and congestion. You may find that some of them bear further investigation.


WWW

You can’t run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. Either you’re a moderator or you’re a propagandist for your old FTO. Do make up your mind!! An “I couldn't possibly comment” is NOT neutral.

Tosh McCaber

As for FAA instructors – see my comment to Rolling Circle.

As for job offers – how do you know that they have not been? These are private matters, not for discussion on a public website.

Ham Phisted

Nobody ever said that the Texas weather is suitable for VFR flying every hour of every day of the year. There can’t be many places in the world where it is. But it is better than Oxford, and the flying is cheaper, which is all that was claimed.

pilot 1

These ‘low time FAA instructors’ are supervised by Oxford SFIs and Standards. And no one has ever suggested that Oxford’s flying standards are low. The students only do up to PT3 in Tyler. There is then another 12 weeks ground school for Phase 2 JAA Nav exams before IFR flying. They then do the full IFR phase at Oxford. It is not Oxford's experience that extra time is required to make up any shortfalls in training standards. In fact, it is not Oxford's experience that there are any shortcomings in training standards, provided it is Oxford's own USA school and not sub-contracted, as previously.

[BEagle]

Methinks he doth protest too much......

[sally at pprune]

Wow, some sore points touched!

Oxford Blue

Thanks for contributing. Your loyalty to OATS is commendable. Just addressing your point about the flying first time pass rates at Oxford being low because other schools have ex-military students:
- Are there really that many ex-military people to slew the averages?
- How is it that Oxford's groundschool results are good then?
- The people from Oxford Marketing who I spoke to made a lot of the fact that many of Oxford's students are airline sponsored. They explained the difference between the self-sponsored and airline-sponsored groundschool results being due to the airline-sponsored pilots being highly selected; "the elite". So how come that doesn't result in excellent flying pass rates as well as groundschool?

Rolling Circle

Are you really saying that OATS first time pass rate for the IR was ½ the CAA average figure? I was a bit gobsmacked that the figure I got from the CAA was so low! :eek:

Any Other Flight School

There must be someone out there that gets people through the flight tests first time. If what Rolling Circle is right, I can understand why OATS have been so coy when I've asked them for their flight tests performance. But none of you seem to want to publish your results, other than Alex Whittingham (who I am told runs Bristol Groundschool), who said he couldn't get the accurate results from the CAA for groundschool. This is your chance to bang your own drum based not on marketing bull**** but measured facts. Some of us have important buying decisions to make. Please help at least me make mine. And yes, I know there are a lot of other factors to take into consideration.

Mike Boulton

Thanks for the advert. At least you use your own name. What are your first time pass rates? :cool:

Yours, frustrated :( (and I'm sorry if it shows)

[oxford blue]

BEagle

Snide remarks and flip dismissals of a carefully thought-out post do not constitute a reasoned reply. If you can't manage to reply using fact, logic, and argument, don't bother to post.

mboulton

This is blatant misuse of this website for advertising, which is strictly forbidden by the rules we all agreed to when we joined pprune. I have reported your post to a moderator.

sally

I don't have the national average IR pass rate figures, nor Oxford's. I would expect any ab initio school's to be lower than the national average, because the national average includes experienced pilots who have let their IR lapse and just need a revalidation, experienced pilots from non-JAA countries converting to JAA, and ex-military. I would expect these to make up quite a significant proportion of those undergoing IRs. There is obviously going to be a heck of a difference between an ex-Tornado pilot with 2000 hours doing an IR and an ab initio with about 200 hours on Warriors and Senecas doing one. Oxford deal only with ab initios.

It may be true that airline-selected cadets do achieve better flying pass-rates than self-selected (ie, self-sponsored) students although I don't know if anyone keeps any statistics. I don't think that Oxford does, because at Oxford (or anywhere else) nearly everyone gets through the flying tests sooner or later. It is extremely unusual to find someone who simply lacks the flying skill to make the grade. A few, but not many. But a much higher percentage have to give up their dream because they can't hack the academics. And many have to wait weeks or months before re-sitting ground school exams, whereas you can re-sit a skills test after a few hours remedial training. So people tend to place more emphasis on ground exam results.

Not terribly helpful, I know. But I really don't know whether these figures exist.

All the best, whatever you decide.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Oxford Blue - take a chill pill.

I am often partisan and opinionated on this forum. As I am a somewhat qualified and experienced in the field of flight training I regularly take public positions. To not do so would be to the detriment of Wannabeism.

There are not that many people who have gone from Wannabe to FO, via PPL and Commercial instructing, whom are still willing to take an interest in Wannabes.

OATS has taken far worse bashings on this forum before now and I have stepped in to defend your company on many occasions. I have recommended people to train with you from time to time dependent upon their circumstances. The wicked witch of Kiddlington I am not and never have been.

I could create a real tongue lashing for what is happening now with farming most of the operation out to the US with FAA instructors picking up great new jobs whilst UK JAA instructors lose theirs. But I refrain.

Personally to answer Sallys original query I would do the Bristol groundschool followed by a Modular CPL IR with a smaller school that specialises in such. There is little sense in paying top dollar for an integrated course to impress and airline when none are hiring low time pilots for the next 12 months...

Which applies to Jerez and their ridiculous ATC restrictions/Crosswinds/Fog. ;)


WWW

[Tosh McCaber]

Oxford Blue

Just a thought- how is it that Oxford can publish perentage passes for sponsored vs self sponsored students for ground school classes, but not for flying classes? :confused:

[minus273]

Must be horendous to be a FAA instructor and know that you know nothing?

That everything you are teaching to your students is wrong.

That you have stolen someones job in the UK.

That you are deemed to be so incredibly stupid by your UK counterparts.

Oh by the way the above is sarcasm.

Just that I do get annoyed being told by someone that does not know me, that I am a hopeless instuctor because I only have 900hrs TT and 650hrs of instruction given.

So sorry that I am young and trying to teach my students.

Maybe people should be a little more humble when they post, rather than play "My sausage is bigger than yours" competition.

Oh look just opened a box of cereals and found my CFII licence.

Ah well time for another beer. Will wait a minimum of 8hrs. (Sleep)

Then back to work.

[Thoroughly Nice Bloke...]

Sally

You seem to be infatuated with first time pass statistics; the most influential ingredient in achieving a first time pass is you, through the commitment that you are prepared to put in coupled with any natural talent and ability that you may or may not possess.

Ps, I trained at Oxford, passed first time and no I wouldn’t recommend them…!

[BEagle]

Methinks he still doth protest too much....

Minus 273, I think that the reference was to low time flight instuctors - there is no intrinsic reason why a FAA qualified instructor with JAR/FCL approval should teach to any different standard to a UK qualified FI if both are subject to the same standardisation requirements.

[sally at pprune]

Thoroughly Nice Bloke...

I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the first time pass rates thing is a non-issue, or even if it is not, I'm not going to get the answers I'm seeking which is a shame.

Thanks for everyone who has made the time to respond constructively. I think I'll leave it there.

:D

[rubberman]

Sally, I feel for you and all the other wannabees out there.
As an ex employee of OATS, I had the great pleasure in 1999/200 of helping many modular students achieve their dream and getting their rating. There was no secret to the success, just dedicated instructors, customer orientated with ops staff who felt the same way. Sadly, after the takeover by BBA group, it became obvious that investment in training was not a priority. I even asked the question at the first meeting with the directors of BBA, ' how committed is BBA to training ?' The answer was clear..they moved onto another topic. You must be aware that the priority for the company is profit( no harm in that ) and to get the right return for the shareholders. This means Oxford airport, engineering and Signature flight handling get the dosh and training is farmed out to the cheapest method of completion. Unfortunately the ' new' MD will be charged with only one thing..maximum return for minimum investment. I know this because as former director of training he had no answers to the many questions we posed to constantly improve our product. Modular succeeded despite of Oxford, not because. Incidentally the new MD went to BMI when he saw what was in the future but got made redundant from there so hot footed it back to to his den at Oxford. I have no axe to grind just despair at the way both employees and customers are treated as just another drain on resources. To echo many other posters..choose carefully, choose wisely and choose once. There are alternatives to OATS no matter how much b*****t scottish marketing people may give you. Good luck.
PS: My company may be looking for low hours pilots on citations soon. I will keep you posted.

[Seer]

rubberman, is your outfit looking for skippers...?

Sorry folks for going off topic...