Puma Upgrade Delay

[ORAC]

Defense News: RAF Delays Timetable To Field Upgrade Puma Helo (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20121114/DEFREG01/311140006/RAF-Delays-Timetable-Field-Upgrade-Puma-Helo?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE)

LONDON — Royal Air Force plans to field an upgraded version of the Eurocopter Puma helicopter have been delayed until at least the middle of next year, according to Britain’s defense procurement and support minister.

The Ministry of Defence said that the crash of a civilian version of the Puma in France in July, which killed key Eurocopter flight test crew, was partly to blame for the delay.

“There have been some delays to aspects of the project and work is being undertaken to understand whether this will impact on fielding plans” Procurement Minister Philip Dunne admitted in a parliamentary written response today. Dunne failed to specify the cause of the problem.

A Ministry of Defence spokesman later said that one of the reasons for the delay was the crash in the French Alps, which killed key Eurocopter test pilots. “A review into the causes of the delay has not yet been complete, however, the Eurocopter air crash [in July] was a factor, as are other unexpected delays — mainly, work we had not expected has had to be done,” said the spokesman. Eurocopter declined to comment.

Signed in 2009, the £339 million pound ($538.2 million) program to significantly update 24 Puma Mk 1 tactical transports operated by the British has seen the helicopter emerge with new engines, flight controls and other upgrades. At one time, the life-extension program of the tactical transport helicopter was a candidate for the axe as part of the budget-cutting strategic defense review in 2010.

The first production standard aircraft undertook its maiden flight in September 2012 and 21 of the 24 helicopter’s in the program have either been delivered or are in the update program being undertaken at a Eurocopter factory in Romania.

Dunne said the MoD “currently expects to field the initial aircraft for training by mid-2013 and incrementally expand the capacity and capability of the Puma Mk2 force over the subsequent two years.” When the deal was signed in 2009, it was expected the Puma Mk2 would enter service this year and reach full operational capability in 2014. The procurement minister said the upgrade is still forecast to be delivered within budget.

British rotorcraft plans envisage tactical helicopter lift being provided by Boeing Chinooks and Mk2 Puma’s, while with the AgustaWestland Merlin machines, which are also operated in that role, will be being used moved over to provide amphibious lift for the Royal Navy’s Commando forces, as its Sea King capability is finally pensioned off.

[Old-Duffer]

Perhaps the minister has been misinformed, or merely and more probably failed to grasp his brief?

[Frostchamber]

The quotes attributed to the Minister are taken from a written answer to a Parliamentary Question. The answer contains nothing that is incorrect (as far as I can see) but at the same time gives no more detail than is strictly necessary to answer the question - which is par for the course for these things.

[ARINC]

Is the work still expected to go to Romania ?

[high spirits]

Is that a delay from the 1980s when the first accident reports stated that engine anticipators should be fitted urgently.....?

[Fareastdriver]

Over 650 Pumas managed to survive without anticipators.

[Bigpants]

Just a thought but if we asked nicely how many nice big chunky Russian Helicopters could the MOD buy for £335 million?

You know the ones that work in Afghanistan...

Still I am sure the Romanians will do a great job...

[Fareastdriver]

MOD buy for £335 million?

A couple of dozen.... Then you would have to shell out another £350 million in five years time.

[ShyTorque]

Is that a delay from the 1980s when the first accident reports stated that engine anticipators should be fitted urgently.....?

In 1979 I gained access to a Boscombe Down TP's report that recommended that the aircraft shouldn't be accepted into service without engine anticipators fitted; it was dated quite some years before 1979 (first HC1s came into service in 1971).

We managed to cope all right, but they obviously can't get the staff of the same calibre these days. :E

Having said that, the most responsive Puma I ever flew was one in NI that was red-lined for lack of engine matching at low power settings (they were set up manually with a screwdriver after flight testing, sometimes took ages). It had a 10 or 11% Ng split; IIRC the max book figure was 3 or 4%.

Whatever you did to the Nr, the high engine wouldn't back off to flight idle and the rotor response was far better. It felt like a totally different aircraft!

As an aside, the old Wessex lags said that the Puma would never last in RAF service because the airframe was built too lightly. 41 years in service as a Mk1 has proved them totally wrong!

[Fareastdriver]

In 1979 I gained access to a Boscombe Down TP's report that recommended that the aircraft shouldn't be accepted into service without engine anticipators fitted; it was dated quite some years before 1979 (first HC1s came into service in 1971).

Everything about the Puma when it was bought was compared to the Wessex. Everything that was not Wessexy was slagged off. No anticipators, that were impossible to fit, Forward visibilty, not low enough, instrument lighting, the wrong colour. Some were reasonable like stability on the ground but even the engineers tried to service it like a Wessex.
The ultimate was when Den Holland and Phil Bleasedale had a doghouse come off and disable the tail rotor at 200 ft. They had to shut down both and carry out an engine off landing and if it wasn't for a wheel snagging a rabbit burrow they would have got away with it. They were dragged over the coals for not finding 'a power and control combination to enable flight to be continued'. A phrase lifted straight out of the Wessex checklist.

As Shy Torque says, 41 years later.

[wg13_dummy]

£14 mill a pop for a little over 10 years return of service. Value for money..... I feel proud as a taxpayer that my money is yet again being so well spent.

[Bigpants]

On 28 October 2008 the Royal Thai Army announced a deal to buy 6 Mi-17s to meet its requirement for a medium-lift helicopter. This is the first time the Thai military has acquired Russian aircraft instead of American.[6] Flight International quotes the Thai army’s rationale: "We are buying three Mi-17 helicopters for the price of one Black Hawk. The Mi-17 can also carry more than 30 troops, while the Black Hawk could carry only 13 soldiers. These were the key factors behind the decision."[7]

Actually I think £339 million would buy more capability for hot/high ops than a Puma Upgrade.

Lastly must we always go down this route after decades of service. Would the RAF have considered a Spitfire upgrade 40 years after its first flight?

[ShyTorque]

The Spitfire(s) remained in front line service for less than two decades and it wasn't really the same aircraft by the time the Mk 24(!) came along.

I reckon the Pumas have given the RAF mighty fine service, despite the design shortcomings. There can't be many other aircraft of any type that have retained the original Mk1 status after forty one years.

But at the end of the day, it's all down to money, as always.

[charliegolf]

41 years in service as a Mk1 has proved them totally wrong!

41 years at 30kts faster- that's a few miles ahead of the Wazzex!:ok:

CG

[dead_pan]

hot/high ops

Hopefully we won't be doing any of those for a while past 2014.

[Old-Duffer]

Bigpants,

May I suggest that, in part, the answer to your question is the way the armed forces of the UK procure capital equipment and then support it in service.

If 'the system' took a 'through life' view of the procurement and ongoing support, plus the likely requirements for upgrades and set down a plausible replacement strategy - should that requirement have been identified, the outcome for many of our weapons systems would be very different.

The major impediment to realistic costings is the annualisation arrangements and the grubbing around which goes on just to keep a weapon system viable against all the other claims for funding. The method by which future costs are measured against inflation leaves something to be desired and this without political interference in the process (would we have bought SA80 if it wasn't seen as important to keep a factory open?).

Old Duffer

[oldbeefer]

You sure it wasn't Neil Mitchel?

[Fareastdriver]

Could be but Den sticks in the mind. All junior pilots looked the same in those days.

[ShyTorque]

You sure it wasn't Neil Mitchel?

It does sound like Neil's accident, which he described it to me in person, it occurred in NI and he had troops on board at the time. He was criticised for not flying it back to Aldergrove! As we all know now, the only speed/power combination for a Puma with no tail rotor is about 70kts and engines off!

[Sand4Gold]

They had to shut down both and carry out an engine off landing

This is going back a few years -

If I recall, wasn't Neil criticised (in his incident) by the BOI for not shutting the engines down (exactly) iaw FRCs whilst executing a EOL?

Picky, picky BOIs? :}

S4G

[ramp_up]

WG13,
If you are concerned how your taxes are spent, perhaps you should question why we pay welfare benefits to foreigner's and still continue the Wildcat Programme.

[wg13_dummy]

Because Wildcat is with the FLC already and will have reached IOC before Puma 2 will even have got out of Romania.....plus it'll be in service for 40 years.

And I do also agree that Wildcat isnt the best way of spending tax payers money either. :ok:

[Fareastdriver]

IIRC and I'm not doing very well when I cannot get the pilot's name right, one of the members of the BofI was a very respected member of the Support Helicopter force. I was a surprise to me when the verdict started to filter through and it apparantly filtered through to the AOC. He took further advice and threw the conclusions back at them and told them to re-write it. At the same time the FRCs were amended.

Bigpants. It will all end in tears. The Third World is littered with derelict Russian equipment. There is nothing intrinsically wrong wiith them, there just aren't any spares. They are either not available or the lead time is too great.
I worked for a long time in China and in the late nineties the Chinese civil aviation was expanding explosively. They were buying everything in sight, even BAC111s. I flew a couple of times in the Tu 154M. One of the things that stood out when you walked in was that several of the overhead locker doors were missing. My Chinese engineers later explained that they were irreplacable even though the aircraft had only just gone out of production. In Tanjian in north eastern China I looked out of the window on the approach and there was a clutch of surplus Aeoflot 154s on a pan. They had been bought by the regional Chinese airline to be used as Xmas trees.
Apart from a few licence built AS Dauphines the civil helicopter industry in China is exclusively Western equipment and also since the turn of the century so are their fixed wing brothers.
They do produce helicopters that have a unique capability. To see a MI 26 underslinging a full sized tracked excavator into the hills during the Chinese Earthquake plus another one with a bulldozer in the back is something you do not see very often. However you cannot get away from the fact that they have low TBOs and poor spares support plus any political ramifications.

[ShyTorque]

Fareastdriver, from what I know of the accident I was told about, that very respected member of the SH force probably had the initials DL.

[PTT]

Wg13 - several Puma 2s are already well clear of Romania :ok:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

This has got Nimrod written all over it...

I just hope I'm wrong

[Fareastdriver]

This has got Nimrod written all over it...

Not quite the same. Nimrods were hand built and they, as they found out trying to put the big hulls on, were all different lengths. The Pumas, albiet built in Britain, were made in French jigs. The Makila conversion has already been done to Portugese Pumas and the rest is modernising the electrics. It's a shame they couldn't have flashed out on the single wheel undercarriage but you can't have everything. It may be over forty years old but it's a utility helicopter. The job that utility helicopters do has not changed much over that time and it goes as fast as any and carries as much as any.
I would not have believed that when I sat behind a Puma windscreen for the first time in 1971 that I would sit behind an identical windscreen, blue/amber pips and all, on my last professional command thirty eight years later.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Not quite the same.


Sure - but I meant more the delays, Govt still uber-short of cash, thinking the unthinkable etc, rather than the act of modernising an old airframe.

[Fareastdriver]

What! and make a load of Rumanian aircraft workers redundant. Brussels would never let it happen.

[212man]

The Ministry of Defence said that the crash of a civilian version of the Puma in France in July, which killed key Eurocopter flight test crew, was partly to blame for the delay.

Since when was the Cougar AS532 a civilian version? :ugh:

[CADENUS]

Yes it was Neil, with Phil Bleasdale and Ron Graham. No troops though. 37secs from bang to crash and thank goodness Den Holland, watching the event as numbeer 2 in the pair, said in a Mayday relay that the tail rotor had gone; because there were some empty thinks bubbles in the cockpit at the time, and only 300ft to play with.

[Shackman]

I was just about to say that Den was #2 but Cadenas beat me to it. However, his description of watching it all happening was 'interesting' to say the least. I always thought they had done an outstanding job actually getting it on the ground in more or less one piece, and as for DL's comment of the 'finding the power/speed combination' with only 2-300ft to play with................!

[Dundiggin']

I've got the photos of the after crash scene somewhere in someones loft. Tha aircraft turned on its side and apparently Ron Graham came out of the bottom cabin door and got a bollocking for not using the upper door!!:hmm:

[lsh]

He also got a bollocking for not assuming his correct crash position.
He spread himself flat on the floor and hung onto the seats - seemed to work fine!

If they can do all this retrospective stuff, maybe Neil could now be awarded the AFC he undoubtedly deserved?!
A nicer, more modest and more brilliant pilot it would be difficult to meet.

lsh
:E

[R 21]

Ah so it was Ron that started the non approved crash position which most Crewmen have used, in the various prangs that have occurred over the years.

It may not be official but if it works.........:ok:

[St Johns Wort]

A nicer, more modest and more brilliant pilot it would be difficult to meet.

Apart from you........ obviously:)

[Could be the last?]

But the 'Crash Position' or rather Crash Seat will be resolved with the upgrade surely.....................:E

[chinook240]

Surprised no one picked this up, bit of a milestone:
http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/puma-hc1-completes-last-sortie-raf-benson/

[Just This Once...]

So no aircraft available for either squadron?

Now last time that happened…

[ShyTorque]

Can anyone say for certain if the HC2 airframes will retain their original military registration numbers when they go back into service?

[Courtney Mil]

They'll have to. It would cost too much to change the cover of the F700.

[Fareastdriver]

No reason why they should. We had instructors at Oakington on Meteor T7s who had flown them as Meteor F4s.

[ShyTorque]

They'll have to. It would cost too much to change the cover of the F700.

Yes, I'm sure this was probably not included in the budget... ;)

[BossEyed]

Can anyone say for certain if the HC2 airframes will retain their original military registration numbers when they go back into service?

Not "certain" certain, but there's strong circumstantial evidence that they will.

This photo shows the first HC2 to be handed over, carrying "F-ZWDD" test marks as well as its original HC1 "XW216" serial.

http://www.key.aero/central/images/news/5350.jpg

I can't see the aircraft being re-serialed again at this stage.

[chinook240]

All Chinooks retained their original reg during the Mid Life Update (MLU)in the 90's, I'm sure the Puma will retain their's during their ELU!

[Rigga]

The only reason for the French registration is to allow civil pilots to complete flight checks after the mods have been embodied. (I have changed Dutch Mil Registrations for UK Flight testing for the same reason)

It is illegal to fly civil pilots on (foreign) military registered aircraft. So technically, someone in MOD knows all about this and someone at ECUK probably coordinates the required changes.

[MOA]

Rigga - it is not illegal for foreign civilians to fly 'our' military equipment. The pilots just have to be approved by the MAA (this activity for test and evaluation used to be carried out by D Flying/Flight Test Div which is now subsumed into the faceless animal that is the MAA).

This aircraft is F-regd as the military EC(Fr) activities at Marignanne is regulated by the French mil regulator and requires all aircraft to have a F-reg. The first 2 aircraft as I recall we be constructed and tested at EC(Fr) with the rest at EC(Ro). EC(UK) will put the UK 'eyes only' equipment on board and test and provide RTS recs.

For EC(Fr) activities, the UK serials should be 'clearly obscured' as they eloquently put in their regulations however this does not appear to be the case here - ho hum.

When the aircraft are at EC(UK) they will be operated under the UK mil reg as this activity now comes under the auspices of the MAA.

Clear as mud eh?

[Lynxman]

Although this photo was obviously taken in the UK so the French registration should have been removed, unless it was on the delivery flight from France perhaps.

[Fareastdriver]

Judging by the number of XW 216s spread around the aircraft it looks like they are all being dismantled and are making sure they connect the rights bits for each aircraft.

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

Anyone know the latest about this project? I have had a good trawl online but it seems to have gone very quiet! Are the trials for release to service complete? Anyone know if they have received the cabs on the fwd fleet?

[Door Slider]

The OCF followed by front line crews are due to start flying at Benson in July.

[Pontius Navigator]

And this was the aircraft that Swiss Des would have scrapped?

[Fareastdriver]

A noticeable lack of presence at the Queen's birthday fly past A noticeable absence from the Leuchers Air Day. What's happened? Fitting Makilas to Puma is nothing new and fitting glass cockpits and various other bits is not rocket science. Not only that Odious could not be bothered to send a Chinook up there either
Should tens of thousands of people make an effort to go to Leuchers to see the Royal Air Force then the Royal Air Force can make an effort too.

[airborne_artist]

I live almost next door to the secret Oxonian rotary base and I have not seen a Puma in ages. What are all the squadron guys/gals doing all day?

[pohm1]

A noticeable lack of absence

Does that mean they were there?;)

P1

[Fareastdriver]

Edited Damned wireless keyboards,

[Door Slider]

It has nothing to do with the RAF sending Pumas/Chinooks to the Leuchars Air Show, the decision rests with JHC.

Airborne Artist, there have been Pumas flying in and out of Benson almost daily for at least the last month and on at least a weekly basis for the past few months.

The RWOETU have been flying since last year and the first bunch of QHI/QHCIs have recently qualified.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Not only that Odious could not be bothered to send a Chinook up there either

The phrase "operational not decorational" could not be more apt; I can assure you that the SH force has been very busy as of late and whilst you may not have seen them at Leuchars this weekend the people of Salisbury Plain would have been well and truly sick of the sound of Chinooks and Merlins last weekend and a number of people from both forces were also enjoying the delights of the Plain on the bank holiday. They've also been supporting exercises overseas (and flying the weekends when our FJ brethren refused to)!

The downside of being able to land on a football pitch is that we get called on to support a large number of smaller airshows, village fetes etc around the south of the UK where the rotary wing presence is felt more and they quite simply cant get bigger aircraft on the ground. It's good for the locals and the image of the RAF but is a drain on crews (more so engineers).

Yes, well and truly a bite but just because you don't see aircraft at Leuchars dont rudely assume that it was because they "could not be bothered" to send aircraft up.

[Fareastdriver]

It's wasn't rude, or an assumption. They couldn't be bothered.

[wokawoka]

Sorry Fareast driver, but I am going to bite.

The Chinook is currently going through an update of the aircraft whilst maintaining operational capability - what other force does that? And I am not talking about a pod here or there - an entire new cockpit with a complete overhaul of the SOPs.

So I apologise if a Chinook could not be "bothered" to turn up to the Leuchars air day. 10 are on ops in Herrick and the rest of the fleet are on Salisbury plain practicing for said op. Where was the Typhoon for Odiham Families day? Or are they that busy? Probably not.

If there is one force that is bothered, it is the Chinook force. I still cannot believe why you would make such a comment apart from wanting to make me bite - which you have succeeded very well.:=

Now go away from my screen little man.....:ugh:

[wokkamate]

Fareastdriver - might be worth thinking before you open your mouth and let your belly rumble. The CH47 is going through a huge amount of turmoil and still working incredibly hard, Air Shows are an expensive luxury, which , while great for PR and morale, are not operationally essential. The CH47 has displayed at several air shows around the country this year, as best they could fit into another busy year (and won most of the display awards too - well done Piggy and the boys!) but they can't be everywhere so dry your eyes and stop being rude - please. :ok:

[Tiger_mate]

There are only three Air Force Board sponsored air shows, and next year it is probable there will be only two. In 2013 the displays of Hawk, King Air, Tutor, and Tornado role demo were all withdrawn. It is not unreasonable to expect the RAF air shows to have 100% primacy over the remaining display assets. No-one would argue that Leuchars is a fair slog for a helicopter, however the transit flights could easily have included training inclusive of Spadeadam EW range and some fighter evasion with the abundance of Typhoon flying that took place this weekend. To have not a single JHC asset at Leuchars is a reflection of who pulls the helicopter force strings these days, and there is more to JHC than Chinook alone.

"Where was the Typhoon on Odihams familys Day". Is not the way it works, neither does 'mates rates'. I appreciate though that one would like to think it could work that way, as indeed it once did. There is evidence that such a system influences international participation at UK air shows but that is compromised by a lack of appetite for public displays across the board. Thankfully is is yet to be as bad as in the USA these days.

[Tiger_mate]

AL1. I am told that Apache was scheduled but Cx due Wx. Which of course is entirely reasonable as the rain on friday was far from nice, and TAF poor for Saturday, although CAVOK prevailed for much of the day.

[Evalu8ter]

TM,
ET at weekends? Might upset the locals and make an interesting phone call to LF Ops....though I did arrange an affil sortie for the RTB with a Jag at the airshow party at Waddington one year...should have been a pair but someone had flattened the battery on his jet cranking the canopy to show 'interested tax payers' the cockpit . It was like clubbing a seal though....

Perhaps after events in the past, the Typhoon force has 'there be dragons' marked on their maps re the Odiham MATZ...:eek: