Two killed in crash at EIBR

[Blind Squirrel]

Aircraft believed to be EI-AST.

Aircraft EI-AST (1968 Reims F150H C/N 0273) Photo by Noel Kearney (Photo ID: AC742004) (http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/742004.html)

Latest details at link below.

Two killed in light aircraft crash - National News, Breaking News - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/two-killed-in-light-aircraft-crash-3290913.html)

METAR at approximate accident time at EINN, nearest reporting station.

EINN 111630Z 19006KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT050 BKN080 08/05 Q1015 NOSIG

[ma11achy]

Very shocked and saddened to hear of this yesterday evening. I've been to EIBR a few times and found all there to be very welcoming bunch of guys and girls.

My thoughts are with their families and their friends.

Their iconic Cessna 150 (aka The Crow) most likely has also been lost.

[AOB9]

Ireland has a relatively small GA community and is very sadenned by this tragic event.

[Blind Squirrel]

The Irish Examiner reports:-

It is believed the aircraft suffered engine difficulty and was struggling to gain height.

The pilot tried to turn around and get the plane back to the airfield but was unable to do so.

Instructor and student killed as light aircraft plunges to ground | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/1112/world/instructor-and-student-killed-as-light-aircraft-plunges-to-ground-213754.html)

This seems consistent with the impact pattern, as shown in an earlier report in the same paper.

Fatal aircrash inquiry underway | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/fatal-aircrash-inquiry-underway-573952.html)

The reason for the engine problems won't be known for some considerable time. Continental 0-200s, however, are notorious for induction icing, and the chart shows that conditions at the time carried a risk of serious carburettor ice at all power settings.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/56519/carb_icing.pdf

Could be a lot of other things, of course, but the above scenario does seem a possible one in light of the known facts at present.

[irish seaplane]

Much respected flying club with a long tradition of good hospitality, has lost one of it's young blood instructors and a promising student pilot in an accident involving the well known Cessna 150H that was the stalwart of of the clubs group "A" training endeavours. While time will reveal the links that broke in the chain yesterday evening, these were two good spirited guys who simply wanted to fly.

They're cleared to the highest flight level of all. Go fly guys....

Irish Seaplane

[Kiss My APU]

Condolences to the families, friends and club involved.

There, but for the grace of nature and engineering go the rest of us.

@Blind Squirrel - When conditions are conducive to carb. ice at all power settings what is best procedure in the take off phase? I always give a blast of carb. heat on the threshold anyways but would it be advisable to take a bit of carb. heat at full power during the whole take off? I fly with a Rotax 912 f.i.y.

[Rod1]

“I fly with a Rotax 912”

Mod – you may want to move this.

In the UK 912 equipped aircraft do not normally have carb heat. This is due to the higher under cowl temps possible with a water cooled engine. My own MCR does not have one and has never suffered. Having said that if it is fitted I would check the POH (if there is one) and follow the advice given. If your aircraft is on a permit there are some uncertified options to heat the body of the carbs which are on all the time and may be of interest.

Rod1

[Blind Squirrel]

APU:-

Carb heating regimens are so specific to aircraft/engine type that I'd hesitate to offer you advice about a Rotax 912. As a general rule, though, I shouldn't have thought that there was ever a good argument for using partial carb heat in any regimen. And if you've taken action to ensure your carburettor is ice-free before beginning the take-off roll, there's no reason to accept the power loss involved in keeping it on all the way through.

That said, if there were a recipe for building up as much carb ice as quickly as possible, it would look something like this:-

1. Operate an O-200, perhaps the most efficient carb ice generator ever designed.

2. Run it for a good while at low RPM, e.g. during a long taxy...

3. ...with the relative humidity at or near 100%, and OAT in the -3C to +16C range...

4. ...over wet grass, with lots of water droplets that can be easily sucked up.

I wonder whether that's what happened here. EIBR is a grass field, and the local news reports said that it had been recently raining.

This much I know for certain. O-200-powered C150s ice up like you wouldn't believe, especially in the kind of (relatively) warm and moist conditions found in northwestern Europe. When they do, the symptoms do not always match the stereotypical "cruise pattern" of a steadily decreasing RPM over a long time followed by rough running. Sometimes the ice build-up occurs within seconds, not minutes. Sometimes you get a huge RPM drop and associated spluttering without any prior warning at all. Sometimes the engine just stops. I lived in eastern England for a while and used to fly a decrepit C150 from an even more decrepit grass strip. In the kind of conditions prevailing at EIBR last Sunday, it would ice up so badly that we couldn't taxy from one end of the field to the other without the use of carb heat. We'd go over a bump; the engine would die; and we'd be left sitting there for five minutes until it melted and we could re-start and have another try. That taught me everything I needed to know about O-200s and icing (and the same manufacturer's O-300, which is nearly as bad) right there.

When flying C150s --and I now own one -- I am religious about carb ice prevention: before take-off; in the cruise; and on final approach. Given the appalling number of recorded stoppages due to induction icing with this type of aircraft, there's absolutely no reason not to be. It's a known killer, and a completely preventable one.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I did my PPL on 0-200 engined C150s off grass. We were taught the usual carb heat use and we knew carb heat was an ever-present threat. But I don't recall any plummetting as a result, despite all these neophytes driving around the skies behind 0-200s.

I think the C60 in the L4 Cub I flew was worse for carb ice. And our Yak52 didn't even have a conventional carb (single point fuel injection into the blower) but would readily ice up on the ground on damp days. I once opened the throttle to take off, and the engine stopped!

[bluecode]

I knew both men, flew with then both and shared many a chat and cup of tea. Niall hoped to find the elusive job soon and may have started jump flying next year. Damien was learning to fly on Tesco's wages. Which isn't easy. Very unfortunate. A real tragedy for the club and town. Birr unlike many towns with airfields has a good relationship with the flying club.

I would concur with Blue Squirrel's suggestion of carb icing. Conditions on the day were very conducive to it. It was quite a mild day with plenty moisture in the air and yes EIBR is plenty wet at the moment. Standing water in places. Long taxys were common too although whether it happened on the day is another question.

I suffering carb icing in cruise in a C150 years on a very similar day. Scared the hell out of me because I didn't instantly recognise it. It's initial symptons were simply vibration followed by a gradual loss of power. Luckily I was at 2000 feet not 300. A few years ago another C150 spun in fatally during a PFL again attributed to carb icing. It is of course very early to be looking at a cause. But the wings were observed to be rocking by one witness, a pilot in fact. Also in fact the terrain where it came down is not particularly favourable for a forced landing particularly from less than five hundred feet. Again it's too early to draw too many conclusions from that.

But one thing can be said, as usual the newspaper reports are not entirely accurate. Not sure where they got the 'warning lights' idea. Also the suggestion that Shannon raised the alarm when it dropped off the radar is pure fiction. It was never high enough to even appear on radar. It was reported missing by club members.

Other than that I have to say media reports have been generally well informed and respectful.

I'll be attending the funerals. Lost count now of all the pilot funerals I've been to.

[cockney steve]

I was going to reply to APU, but suddenly found a reke of "hidden" posts on the subject.
IMHO, the 0200, per se. does not , of itself, suffer "carb icing" I'd suggest that it's the specific installation that causes this problem.
"the other brand" suffers less because it's carb is sheltered from the icy blast of cooling-air.....a deflector baffle would be too easy, for the 0200...think of the certification-costs!

Whilst I accept that carb. heat will rob a bit of power, the increased safety is out of all proportion to the slight performance degradation.

Rotax is a different animal altogether...there are induction heaters on the market....again, there is a performance hit,but they apparently work well.
Have seen icing on cars as well, rare but not unknown....again, most cars have a thermostatically controlled air-blend-even if it's a simple bimetal-strip and pad over the "alternative" hot air pickup (Minis/metros/marinas etc. used a crude, simple and effective one like this) but it seems that stuff like that is too advanced to fit to certified aircraft (permit stuff would probably be OK )....the" either clean. filtered ambient...OR....hot 'n dirty from around the exhaust-manifold." is just so antiquated ,it should have been legislated out of service in the 1960's


All just my opinion , of course, as an "outsider" looking in.

[bluecode]

Have seen icing on cars as well, rare but not unknown....again, most cars have a thermostatically controlled air-blend-even if it's a simple bimetal-strip and pad over the "alternative" hot air pickup (Minis/metros/marinas etc. Suzuki Swift I had suffered from Carb ice. It was brother's originally. He's an aircraft Engineer and recognised it immediately. Pulled off the most of the induction piping. It helped but on certain days you could go ten miles or so and it would stop, usually on motorways thus full power. You waited for the ice to melt and then drove on. If I wasn't a pilot or my brother wasn't an Engineer. It would have confused the hell out of us and we'd have spent a fortune in garages.

As it was we were amused.

[hhobbit]

Only for obstructive legalities and costs of certification people would now be alive. It's an outrage. If I owned a C150 I would cure this myself and to hell with the niceties.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

As I noted abive, it's not just C150s. There are lots of equally bad examples, and some worse ones.

[Maoraigh1]

Only for obstructive legalities and costs of certification people would now be alive. It's an outrage. If I owned a C150 I would cure this myself and to hell with the niceties.
How? I fly a Jodel with an O-200, and carb ice is an almost always present problem - controlled by regular carb heat. As it is EASA 2, it could be modified IF you know of a solution. I believe there have for long been STCs for detectors.

[Mike Cross]

The A series are just as prone.

If you think about it most of the small aero engines are Continentals. Small engine, burns less fuel, has a smaller carb throat and smaller induction manifold. Smaller air passages mean less ice is needed to cause a problem. Burning less fuel they produce less heat. The larger Lyco's tend to have a sump rather than a separate oil tank with the inlet manifold pipes running in channels cast into the sump to help keep them warm. Small Continental tend to have everything hanging out in the breeze. QED

This is simply a response to the comments above and nothing to do with this tragic accident.

[cockney steve]

The basis of the simple,crude yet elegant solution worked out by British Motor Corporation (remember them?)

collector round exhaust manifold with duct to air cleaner INLET
Cold outside air ducted to cleaner inlet a pad is affixed to a substantial folded bimetal strip such that the pad is normally close to, or blocking the hot air duct. (think a pair of sugar tongs, one tong anchored, the other carrying the pad.....the "loop" faces TOWARD the air-cleaner which feeds the carb.(whole assembly is inside the duct and thus subject to induction-airflow)

Upon initial startup, the cold induction air passes over the bimetal , which pulls the pad away from the heated-air inlet...as the exhaust-manifold heats up, the warm air is blended with the cold air and this passes over the bimetal which regulates the warm to cold mix.....the engine, when warmed, breathes only filtered air at ambient or higher. Whilst there's no facility to COOL the incoming air on a hot day, I am led to believe theact of lifting above the earth will automatically do this :} As the damper-pad can't be in two places at the same time, it's failsafe. The engine always gets an air supply.

Hope this shows that there ARE advances to be made to designs that appear to be frozen in the 1920's.

ISTR Porsche designing a modern-tech. engine , probably 30 years ago....just needed a single control......anyone else?

[dont overfil]

Steve, the reason it is pilot controlled is because a C150 will need a runway the length of Heathrow to take off breathing hot air.

BMC were maybe not the best example of quality engineering.:)

The real answer is fuel injection or even pilot awareness.

D.O.