John Houlder and G-AWOE

[AdamFrisch]

Does anyone know what's happened to the late Elstree owner John Houlder's Aero Commander 680E, G-AWOE? It's an interesting bird that's been all over the world. Has someone taken stewardship over it or has it been sold?

[Cows getting bigger]

I saw it at Elstree 4 weeks or so ago and thought it looked in relatively good order, having observed it in a more ragged state some months earlier.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Last seen parked at the back of Elstree's main hangar.

In fact, in nearly 40 years of visiting the place, I don't think i've ever seen it parked outside!:eek:

[AdamFrisch]

I do hope it doesn't end up like the other stuff at Elstree. Be a nice traveller for the right person and can be operated rather cheaply for a twin if it's been well maintained.

The 680E was the last of the bathtub Commanders. It's a great performer: 1700ft takeoff roll fully loaded, 24K service ceiling, 225gals of fuel that will carry you 1400nm and a cruise speed of 190-200kts. The GSO-480's are plentiful and it's relative simple plane to maintain with good parts availability. Burns about 34gal/hr at knuckles to the wall, but could easily be flown at economy around 20-25gal/hr depending on altitude. A great traveling machine that can be had for not very much money.

Does his estate still own it?

[Beech_Boy]

John Holder no longer had the lease for Elstree aerodrome when he passed away earlier this year. In fact he had given up the lease for the aerodrome a couple of years ago I think it was.
With regard to the aero commander, I seem to recall that John Holder was the only person who could fly the aircraft due to something to do with the autopilot system that he had fitted/designed himself that was in the aircraft, although I can't remember what exactly it was that was so special about it, there may be someone else who could clarify this.
Also sadly his engineer that looked after the aircraft for him passed away earlier on this year.

[Wrong Stuff]

All hearsay, but an IR examiner I flew with told me something similar a few years ago - that it was single-pilot equipped (so renewing his IR involved some blind faith in his abilities) and that the aircraft C of A was specific to him alone. Once he passed away, so too would the Certificate of Airworthiness.

He also told me stories of John flying through the alps in IMC, using his weather radar to plot his position relative to the mountains.

I have no idea whether any of this is true. My guess is, probably yes.

Beech Boy - who was the engineer?

[Beech_Boy]

I don't think the aircraft had a p2 seat as it was removed to compensate for the autopilot equipment.
Wrong stuff- his engineer was a guy called Jeremy

[flyme273]

I too heard the story of using the radar for the approach to St Moritz from John himself (he had made some plates of the expected shape of the mountains and would compare the shapes on approach). He was once in a holding pattern with other aircraft circling above cloud at St Moritz, then commenced an approach. On seeing John descend into cloud, the other aircraft thought he had had an emergency and radio-ed distress.

He always went ski-ing at St Moritz.

Originally the P2 seat was removed to allow installation of the rather bulky Decca Nav - this long pre-dated the advent of GPS.

However, in later years John re-installed the seat as he decided the presence of a co-pilot was desirable. He was 92.

Altogether a long and remarkable flying time, a specialist on instruments.

flyme.

[irish seaplane]

Well worth a read, a fascinating piece for me anyhow.

Here s the URL.....

Air Squadron (http://www.airsquadron.org/PastMembers/HoulderJohnObit)

[Newforest2]

Fascinating for me too, thanks! :)

[Stampe]

An inspirational life.Would it be possible to follow an equivalent path in todays regulatory regimes.VBR Stampe

[flyme273]

Why did John originally take the lease to Elstree?

One story that often made the rounds in the Elstree clubhouse, was that John was intending to land one dirty evening when the air traffic controller refused him landing clearance on the grounds of adverse weather. John protested but was unable to get the controller to relent.

Next day John visited Elstree and became the leaseholder.

flyme273

[rgsaero]

When Houlder took the lease from Lord Aldenham, there were no such things as Air Traffic Controllers at other than major airports.

Perhaps the only person who might remember is David Ogilvy, former instructor immediately pre-war and still a leading light in AOPA

[wsmempson]

Houlder was clearly a remarkable man.

However, Elstree went markedly downhill during the last 10 years of of his tenure and it has only really recovered in the last two years, since the new owners have taken over and invested in the crumbling infrastructure.

[UK019]

I once had a memorable ride in that aircraft with John. I was an instructor at Elstree in 1974/5 and he took me and the then girlfriend (are you still at LATCC Jane?) to Sunderland (I think) to see a ship of his(!)

He constructed an approach on his Decca, which worked out beautifully, and he then took us to the docks, pausing for egg and chips at a disreputable transport café - but they were delicious.

On the way back, the right engine shuddered to a halt, spewing oil (and the oil filter) all over the show. He elected to divert into Luton and carried out an absolutely immaculately flown single-engine approach and landing. :D

Thereafter, he wandered off and made a phone call (no mobiles then) and about an hour later a limo complete with chauffeur pitched up and transported us to Elstree.

The man was very unassuming - almost an anti-hero. He was clearly a very wealthy bloke but travelled around in a scruffy little Mini.

Happy days!

[Beech_Boy]

His yellow mini is still sat at the aerodrome now, behind the old mont clare shipping office

[flyme273]

He had the mini because parking was easier and cars were not his interest. He also used the train to go to the London offices of Houlder Shipping. Elstree did run down but then it was not John's interest. I don't think he would have been concerned if no one else used the field - profit was not a priority. He was extremely wealthy.

Many people wondered why he did not get a jet.

flyme.

[ex jump pilot]

It wasn't all that long ago on a sunny Saturday lunchtime when I saw (and heard) the black aircraft going towards Elstree from White Waltham direction. It was very noisy - as though it did not have silencers.
Thanks for the URL to his obit.
Have flown a few times to / from Elstree when he owned it - including in the early 1990s parking a Stampe there overnight and later an AN2 operated by James Black.

[MrAverage]

Adam Frisch

Somebody rang us last week to see if OE was for sale. I was told earlier in the year, after attending the Memorial Service at St. Clement Danes, that it was part of a large estate that would take years to sort out and passed that message on to the caller.

Apparently it is for sale, so if the caller sees this post please feel free to ring us again.

During daylight hours - in it's current position - it can be seen on our webcam next to the heli pad. (search: Elstree Webcam)

[AdamFrisch]

I like your thinking Callum, but one headache is enough! :ok:

[Buster the Bear]

Not too sure it is at Elstree now. If that is the case, what happened to it?

[MrAverage]

Still very much at Elstree. All offers via Elstree Airfield Manager.

[Sir George Cayley]

I bid 10 quid.

Next!

SGC

[MrAverage]

I'll bid £15 if you'll take it apart for a share of the parts sold.

[AdamFrisch]

Is it still there and for sale?

[Sir George Cayley]

I understand it is still there 'in store'.

If you are bidding anything above £30 I'm out;)

SGC

[AdamFrisch]

How much they want for it?

[MrAverage]

I'll ask the boss and get back to you..........

[YODI]

and what a beautiful beast it is...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/rsyodi/Aircraft/IMG_20150606_184122_zpskgtti9bh.jpg

[AdamFrisch]

Thanks. Might be interested to bring her back to life if the price is right. Prob not flown for 5 years, so there would a little bit to do to get her running.

[Romeo Tango]

1997, Larnaca, en-route Pakistan

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/553/18826260999_960ea2548d_b.jpg

[AndoniP]

I presume that any modifications that were made to it specifically for mr houlder under CAA approval would need to be reverted to original specification?

[MrAverage]

Adam

I spoke to the boss. There is no asking price. You need to make an offer.

[AdamFrisch]

Hmm, OK.

Well, it's close to 10,000hrs TT. It has the Hartzell recurring AD props that need inspection every 500hrs, if it's not the older hubs which need it every 250hrs. The spar needs Eddy current inspection every 500hrs after 6000hrs unless it's been modified. The engines have 1400hr TBO - do you know how much time they have on them? In any case, after sitting for 5 years they'll need at least a top overhaul and maybe some cams. How are the fuel cells etc?

As she sits now, condition on having closer inspection, I would offer £10K today.

Also, someone mentioned that his mechanic also died a few years ago. But maybe the organization he worked for still exists? There must be someone there one could get some info from. Do you know serviced the Commander?

[gordon field]

I think that John Houlder also held the appropriate CAA engineering licences and 'signed' off his own work. Those were the days.

[Wrong Stuff]

Bonkers though you undoubtedly are, Adam, I think this one might be too much even for you ;)

I remember John and his Commander coming up in conversation with an IRE while revalidating my IR once. According to this guy, all the IREs tried desperately to avoid him whenever his IR renewal came due. Not only was he by then getting on a bit, but he had removed the copilot seat and controls from the aircraft, so they had to sit in the back and if anything untoward did happen they had no way of taking control.

He also mentioned that there was a special restriction in the aircraft's documents that named John as the only authorised pilot, so that when John died, effectively so did the aircraft.

I did read an obituary online which confirmed these details. A Google search may turn it up.

[Stampe]

Adam I follow your threads with great interest.Just remember this is not aviation in the USA as you know it.You must be forgetting the delights of dealing with our beloved regulator and the poor maintenance organisations that shelter under their patronage.vbr Stampe

[AdamFrisch]

No, I know. I would have to inspect both plane, logbooks and see what nasty other things turn up. But, taking customary installations out is always easier than putting them back in. So as long as he did that and didn't rip certified stuff out, it might not be the end of the world. Many other things might, tho.

I'm in Cardiff all summer for work, so I might pop over and have a peek at it.

[MrAverage]

Just spoke to the boss again. He'll put some fuel in and getting running for you if you arrange a date. His son owns engineering so he can also answer any questions.

[AdamFrisch]

Cool. I'll PM you when on Blighty's shores and closer to it.

[AdamFrisch]

Well, aircraft is now de-registered from CAA database, so I assume Houlders old 680E met with the scrappers. This also marks the last Aero Commander I can find on the UK register, which is a bit sad. Surprising, since it's a type that's very well suited to UK grass fields and shorter takeoffs. Maybe someone will bring a Turbo Commander or a Shrike onto the register in the future.

[wigglyamp]

There are still quite a few operating in the UK on Manx or N reg plus several other EU aircraft coming to the UK for maintenance at Gama Aviation.

[YODI]

Adam, it hasnt been scrapped just de registered a little while ago but it still lives at Elstree, and was last run a few months ago.

A picture I took over Christmas below, I have some more on my Instagram and a video if you want to look username is AV8_YODI https://www.instagram.com/av8_yodi/

https://scontent-lht6-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s640x640/sh0.08/e35/c158.0.764.764/15534809_1153850774710744_5499740308683882496_n.jpg

[terry holloway]

Known in The Royal Air Squadron as "the Black Beast"!

I too heard the story of using the radar for the approach to St Moritz from John himself (he had made some plates of the expected shape of the mountains and would compare the shapes on approach). He was once in a holding pattern with other aircraft circling above cloud at St Moritz, then commenced an approach. On seeing John descend into cloud, the other aircraft thought he had had an emergency and radio-ed distress.

He always went ski-ing at St Moritz.

Originally the P2 seat was removed to allow installation of the rather bulky Decca Nav - this long pre-dated the advent of GPS.

However, in later years John re-installed the seat as he decided the presence of a co-pilot was desirable. He was 92.

Altogether a long and remarkable flying time, a specialist on instruments.

flyme.
He always said that he held the first ever IR in the uk and he renewed it not long before he died. He was a very accomplished pilot and a very clever engineer. There was a second seat in the front but out of reach of the controls. He regularly took a passenger with him and in more recent years that was Lady Isla Abinger. As a fellow Royal Air Squadron member I knew him well and was on a nomber of trips with him. Trips he made in the Commander included to the USA, N Norway, Pakistan Jordan, South Africa and throughout Europe!
The seat was moved closer to the controls when late in his life a dictat said he had to be accompanied by another pilot but he didn't do a lot of that!!

[nohold]

There is an Aero Commander showing on the Elstree webcam (to the right of the ATC building)...November the 8th at 08:15.

ELSTREE WEBCAM | FlyElstree 020 8953 6868 (http://flyelstree.co.uk/elstree-webcam/)

[surely not]

nohold, I think that is a Turbo Commander, though my eyes are not always reliable
. Those aren't so rare as the piston engined Aero Commander and Shrike Commander

[YODI]

That's M-BETS a regular visitor

[nohold]

My apologies, much obliged for the kind updates.

[Flyingbadge]

webcam or not, she's still sitting at Elstree.

[Katamarino]

Surprising, since it's a type that's very well suited to UK grass fields and shorter takeoffs.

Maybe not so well suited to the UK/Europe's obsession with financially punishing anybody who might want to do something out of the ordinary like flying, instead of sitting at home watching X Factor like all the obedient little citizens are expected to do :sad: