hadley page herald and f27

[Mickey Kaye]

why was the f27 so much more commercially successful compared to the herald

[airsmiles]

IIRC Handley-Page went down a blind alley initially with 4 piston engines on the Herald (Alvis Leonides?). Fokker opted for twin RR Dart turbo-props from the outset and, by the time HP caught up and redesigned the Herald, Fokker had a 3 year sales lead.

Fokker subsequently seemed to churn out different variants over the years but HP never managed to have much success in that area.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The Herald seemed to have far too much dihedral!

[42psi]

But the seats around the tables in rows 1 & 2 were cool !

Especially when used for loading mail bags :hmm:

[Herod]

Stand by for the Herald guys to come out fighting. If you look at the figures for both aircraft in their initial form I think you'll find they were very similar. One of the problems was political. Sir Frederick refused to be part of the merger (read carve-up) of the industry in the late '50s, early '60s. That resulted in Handley-Page being excluded from the bid for the RAF light tactical transport. That was won by the Andover. Nothing wrong with that, apart from the fact that it was low-wing (sand and gravel ingestion) and had a high floor level (OK, let's add a kneeling undercarriage). Not denigrating the Andover, but the Dart Herald would have been better suited.

Having lost out on that, the market for the DC3 replacement (we're still waiting ;)) was getting pretty crowded, and there was very little development of the Herald, while Fokker continued with the F27.

I'm not biased, but I've got 6,000 hours on the F27. Still, some of my best friends have flown both and can I'm sure give a better answer.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I haven't even flown in a Herald, but I do remember a holiday in Guernsey in 1985. Out on a Viscount standing up on the flight deck (I'd asked the captain for the jump seat having shown him my PPL but there wasn't a jump seat so I stood behind the P2 including t/o and landing). Came back on the jump seat of an F27.

The Viscount was quiet and smooth. But the F27.... How can an aeroplane with half as many Darts be ten times more noisy? :E

[dixi188]

I can't remember exact details but the F27 was about 20 to 30 knots faster than the Herald for the same fuel flow due to having less wing area. This gave it a commercial advantage.

The Herald had better short field performance and higher cross wind limits and hence was very popular with Channel Island operators.

[goudie]

I was a SNCO on secondment to the Royal Malaysian Air Force, in the '60's, when it had 8 Heralds. Can't speak for it's flying abilities but I do recall they were very high maintenance.

[WHBM]

Fokker struck a clever deal with Fairchild to produce the F27 in the USA. This not only covered more territory (European imports to the US were never well received back then) and gave more prominence but Fairchild had a real success with it and built more than 200, giving Fokker good cash flow back - in fact a Fairchild built aircraft was the first into service.

Meanwhile for the UK focused market the Herald and the 748 were two competing similar-sized designs that split the market between them.

Bear in mind the Herald was not a Handley Page design but was inherited by them when they bought Miles Aircraft of Reading (which is why its model number was HPR7). Miles had designed it as a growth from the useless Miles Marathon, a smaller aircraft with four smaller piston engines. Aircraft from another manufacturer's drawing office do tend to have limited success.

[macuser]

I think the 4 engined prototype herald was flown into alderney and remains the largest aircraft to have landed there. Also, the dart heralds that became operational were prone to major electrical faults.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

The Dart Herald's biggerst problem was that it wasn't an AVR748. The F27 was undoubtably a good machine but, arguably, it won orders on price.

[reynoldsno1]

ISTR there were also major corrosion problems brought about by spills & leakage from the galley floor?

[LTNman]

My father who worked for Handley Page was sent to Gander, Newfoundland with a team of production workers to repair 3 EPA Herald's that had corrosion due to what I thought was leaking toilets.

[old,not bold]

Speaking from the point of view of being responsible for a fleet of F27s in challenging conditions in Arabia for some years, and then a fleet of Heralds in similarly challenging conditions in N Africe for 6 months, I can assure Herald supporters that the similarities were superficial.

The F27 was reliable and rarely failed to do what was asked of it. This varied from 10 daily rotations BAH-DHA-BAH for 60 day periods between hangar visits (supported only by line maintenance and lots of wheel/brake spares). to ad hoc charters to soft sand strips in Oman with loads from there that were of very uncertain weights but probably well over the LS weight.

The Darts usually needed early overhaul as performance deteriorated from sand erosion; I have seen compressor blades reduced to 40% of their design size taken from engines that were still within performance limits (just). But the airframes just kept on trucking.

Now, turning to the Herald, where do I start? Admittedly they were ACMI aircraft, poorly maintained if at all. But nothing alters the fact that the Herald, in its final form as well as early ones, was unreliable, difficult to operate and maintain, and had dreadful performance. In short it was a dog. I'll leave it to pilots and engineers to explain the technical reasons for this, but believe me it's the case.

In Northern Europe, with good engineering support, there may not be much to choose between them. I wouldn't know. But as soon as conditions became more difficult, especially hot and/or high, the F27 was best, hands down.

PS Didn't the BAe 146 operate regularly into Guernsey? I would guess that it was bigger than a 4-engine early Herald.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Old not Bold, I might have flown on one of your F27s back in the mid 1990s. I was in Oman working on a bid for an IT system for Omani Oil company. We flew into Muscat for a day or so, then took an oil company F27 flight over the mountains into the Empty Quarter. We called at a few sand strips before we reached the strip which was our destination and I remember the rate of climb was not great in the 50C heat of the desert!

We travelled by landy rover across the desert to to the oil camp, and next day after a night at the camp we flew back to Seeb and on home.

It was an interesting experience!

[Herod]

Old, Not Bold. PS Didn't the BAe 146 operate regularly into Guernsey? I would guess that it was bigger than a 4-engine early Herald. It did indeed, but the poster was talking about Alderney, a whole different kettle of fish.

[old,not bold]

Shaggy Sheep Driver, it probably was one of mine, but the first word in my name means what it says, so I was long gone!

I'm glad you enjoyed the trip though. When the official shade temperature is 50C, any rate of climb is a gift from God. And the Darts may have been due for overhaul soon. If the aircraft were the same, they would have been 25++ years old in the mid-'90's.

The Heralds in N Africa had to visit Tamanrasset, 6,000 ft AMSL, regularly; there were occasions when all it could uplift was the crew and 2-3 passengers, even at night.

Herod

See comment above about age! How the h**l did I read "Alderney" as "Guernsey"?

[The SSK]

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned that one of them 'looked the part' and the other one was pug-ugly.

[Phileas Fogg]

The one that looked the part, like most Avro products, was the 748 ... the 'Budgie'.

Yes, I worked with the world's largest fleet of Fokkers (and 'we' operated Heralds also), the HPR7 was something of a joke, known as the dinosaur, slow, ugly and with a corrugated tail, not to say the F27 was anything to smile about and why Fokker stuck with the same 1950's design shape for their F50 ... well that's perhaps why they went bankrupt!

But ... the one that is still flying is the Avro 748!!!

[Herod]

PF. The F27 morphed into the very useful F50. You neglect to mention that the 748 morphed into the ATP, which had to hide itself under the alias Jetstream.

[tornadoken]

Herald was a 1956-turbine variant of Miles 1947 M.73; 48 were sold cf.786 F-27: in ’95 a ’71-built F-27 was bought for $1.2Mn. by Channel Express/Hurn to replace its last Herald whose price new in 1963 had been less. Aer Lingus (then a BEAC-Associate) had been Launch Customer for F-27 in 1956, discarding HP's bid, unimpressed by weight of Victors in work, underwhelmed by HP’s priority on the richer product. They sought performance guarantees, fixed prices/specs/delivery, including spares and tools: Greek to HP. At that point no-one knew the practical operational issues posted here.

It was quite difficult actually to buy a Herald: R.Jordanian A.F. took 2, R.Malaysian A.F.10 as HP knew his way around military business (though 3/62 MoA chose 31 HS780 as RAF Andover C.1). But airlines were alien: HP Ltd. had ventured beyond Dover to terra incognita only twice - 1919 to China for 6 bombers-as-transports, and SABENA,Belgium, 1922, 2(+13 licenced) others. HP preferred to sell in Whitehall’s one-stop shop to RAF and Imperial A/W. Civilians despaired and went to Fokker, who cared. Flight Intnl. 23/12/98 Herald obituary: “the pilot feels he is exercising some skill if he taxies (smoothly...cockpit: ) tolerably comfortable for relatively short flights” but its virtue had been seen as “pleasant handling characteristics...pilot appeal.” Airliners are not sold to pilots.

Failure was not Govt.'s fault. HP was given Launch Aid by way of imposition on BEAC of an order for 3, funded from the Scottish Highlands & Islands budget (today: EU cohesion fund). Netherlands Govt. did not order 12 for RNethAF until the type had penetrated wide civil market..inc. Oz, to HP's chagrin. I suggest brick dunny, normal Brit heaviness, over-engineered, heedless of operating economics, which in UK then were never a Design Case.

[The SSK]

I was amused to read in W'pedia that the last ever Herald passenger flight was for ... Ryanair.

My one and only Herald flight was for Sabena.

[Phileas Fogg]

Herod ...

But the 748 was an Avro product, the Herald was a Handley Page product ... and guess who's product the Jetstream was ... Handley Page :)

Agreed though that the ATP was/is a piece of cr@p :)

[Jhieminga]

...not to say the F27 was anything to smile about and why Fokker stuck with the same 1950's design shape for their F50 ... well that's perhaps why they went bankrupt!
I guess it's more a case of 'why they didn't go bankrupt earlier' as they certified it as a 'F27 Mk.050' while marketing it as a 'F50'. Much cheaper as you can sidestep the whole new airplane certification bit and just add a new variant to the TCDS with a lot less testing and costs. They did the same for the F70 and F100 which are officially the F28 Mk.0070 and F28 Mk.0100.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The ATP. Ha! I remember when they were on Scottish services from Manchester when I was running a project in Glasgow. More often than not the aeroplane would go tech and BA would put us on the Man Shuttle to H'row, then the H'row Shuttle to Glasgow.

I much preferred the Budgie, and BA used to do quite a good breakfast on them on the morning flight Man to Aberdeen. Much better than the alternative Business Air Saabs whose o'head lockers wouldn't even take a briefcase!

[old,not bold]

Since the 748 has somehow landed in this thread, let's not forget that the RAF's Andover version, with its fancy undercart, rear loading ramp an' all, could barely lift itself off the ground in hot conditions, even at sea-level, let alone a payload.

When the glorious Twin-pin was sacked from Sharjah, the Andover replacement sometimes picked up less for a particular sortie than the Twin-pin would have done in the same conditions. That was, admittedly, partly because the Andover flight's idea of a suitable diversion fuel load was a bit different from the Twin-pin flight's more pragmatic notions.

It also brought with it an intolerable amount of bureaucracy; we had to "check-in" 30 minutes before a flight instead of rolling up to the aircraft in a Landrover while the engines were starting, at SHJ at least, but that's another story. They wanted to take our personal weapons as well, but they lost that one.

[evansb]

Eastern Provincial Airways (Canada), based in Gander, Newfoundland, operated 4 Dart Heralds. One was lost in a fatal crash in 1965 due to corrosion. The bottom of the fuselage ruptured.
http://www.al-airliners.be/d-j/eastern-prov/epaher.jpg

[Jhieminga]

ASN Aircraft accident Handley Page HPR-7 Herald 202 CF-NAF Upper Musquodoboit, NS (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19650317-2)

[tubby linton]

The SSK,I think that I may have done one of those Ryanair flights in a Herald. BAF had a short term contract to fly the LTN -Waterford route in 1988 as the 748 they usually used was not available.
I thought the Herald was an awful aircraft. The cockpit layout was a disaster and the handling was less than crisp.Flying it was like trying to drag a supertanker through custard with one arm behind your back.

[The SSK]

evansb: curious about the pic, whose is that middle Vanguard?

[Herod]

By a strange quirk of fate, my initial line training on the F27 was done by "Hazel" Hasleden, who, as Chief Pilot for HP, had an "interesting" arrival in a field in a Dart Herald. I'm sure it's on the net somewhere.

[Jhieminga]

whose is that middle Vanguard?
I would guess at Europe Aéro Service, have a look at this page: europe aero service (http://www.vickersvanguard.net/page18.html)

[treadigraph]

Looks like Europe Aero Services colour scheme to me SSK.


Edit: Snap!

[p1fel]

Want to know more about the Handley Page Herald? There's a book written by Graham Cowell isbn 0 7106 0045 3 published in 1980 by Janes in the UK.

Herod, Sqn Ldr Hazelden was at the controls of G-AODE on its was to the 1958 Farnborough Air show, when suddenly the low pressure turbine of the starboard dart burst and a large fragment cut through two of the engine bearers and severed the fuel line, causing a catastrophic fire. The flames melted the nacelle off in about 2 minutes and it fell off, complete with the engine. The fire extinguisher had little effect, they lost height and tried to make a crash landing. The aircraft started to pitch and he thought it might break up. When the engine fell away there was a violent roll which he was just able to recover control. Fuel pouring from the tanks fed the flames, which in turn caused part of the tailplane to come away. Hazelden made a wheels up crash landing in a stubble field near Godalming. All nine occupants managed to rush to safety.

I cut my teeth on the Herald as a young F.O. (I flew the Herald a total of 642Hours). It was a very slow docile machine but could handle one hell of a crosswind with ease (if memory serves me well officially rated 35Kts across) was a doddle at that and more.

The Friendship on the other!!! (I Flew the FK27 2,938 Hours). Although it was a faster aircraft than the Herald the FK27 was trickier to handle (if memory serves me correctly I think it was rated 28 Kts across) and it could be a pig. I think Herod would agree, it sorted the men from the boys did the FK27 Friendship.

As with most flying machines, they had their pro's and con's.

I did some desert work in the HPR7 and with its double nose wheels it was able to do 180's without getting bogged down in the sand. The FK27 on the other hand had a single nose wheel and when the locals started operating them doing the same desert work, they soon got into difficulties with it.

[Phileas Fogg]

And didn't Air UK have 2 green lights for the F27 nosewheels ... to be sure to be sure?

[Fokkerwokker]

I flew both back in the early 70s : The HPR7 with BIA and then the F27 in the Gulf where we were collectively known as the ‘Friendly Fokkers’.

I had previously flown as a Flight Test Engineer with Handley Page at Radlett where a favourite expression of HP crew about HP aircraft was “Too heavy, too slow, too late but they handle beautifully”.

The Herald certainly cut the mustard with the weather around the Channel Islands. I remember on one occasion ‘letters to the editor’ of the local rag in Soton. “Sir, During the recent storms shipping was delayed, train services disrupted, trees blown down blocking roads and women and children blown off their feet. It was significant that British island Airways was operating to schedule at Southampton Airport.”

Compared to the Herald the F27 was a bit of a sports car and did a pretty good job in the various roles around the Middle East for Gulf Aviation/Gulf Air swapping from pax to freighter with relative ease – the large cargo door making the loading of oil drilling equipment comparatively stress free. With the boosted RR Darts it managed the raw heat of the desert although the performance wasn’t exactly sparkling mid-Summer. I well remember the slogs, from Muscat to Salalah, in the monsoon getting a basic radar service onto the sand runway there – or was it an NDB approach?

Pretty basic stuff in those days……Topo., stopwatch and the odd NDB in the desert that may work if someone had remembered to fill the generator with diesel.

Great days even tho’ they wrecked my hearing!

:}

[Discorde]

Here are the entries for the F27 (http://steemrok.com/kya/kyafriend) and the Herald (http://steemrok.com/kya/kyaherald) from 'Know Your Airliners' (1957). Pictures © Roy Cross. Text © J W R Taylor

[Herod]

Hello P1fel.

Yes, and I had the privilege of being told it by Hazel himself. A nice little touch. He had a pen that had been presented to him by the HP management. Said pen was in the holder alongside the seat. After the remains of the Herald were extinguished, one of the firemen returned the pen: undamaged. The Herald was, I believe, being accompanied to Farnborough by a Hastings. If any pictures were taken, they don't seem to be in the public domain. I guess since it was supposed to be a trip to drum up sales, such pictures would have been quickly destroyed.

Leeds/Bradford with a wind of about 220/25, gusting 35. I'm sure you remember it well! Not only did it sort the men from the boys; it also sorted the men from their hair.

[DCDriver]

P1fel sums the two a/c up well.

I too began on Heralds in the mid-70's and because it was my first airliner, I at first I thought it wonderful! It handled well but the performance was dire - (eg)we would use standing waves off hills to gain altitude because it was the only way we'd make our cleared level to cross (say) an airway. It was well-built and was very stable in strong X-winds & bad wx.
Then, after 500hr or so, I went onto the F27 and realised why the world was full of Fokkers! Faster, better performance, does what the sales brochure says. But, as others have stated above, not as nice to handle, all over the place in strong winds and a pig to land well. And we all looked on enviously at Avro748 drivers, 'cos we all knew instinctively it was the best twin-turboprop of the day.

Funnily enough, I went on to fly the BAC111 as my first jet. Then I went on to fly DC9's and very quickly realised why the world was full of DC9's and not BAC111's - a DC9 on one engine had a better performance than a 111 on two! Not unlike comparing the Herald and F27, except that the '9 was built like the proverbial outhouse, had fighter-like performance due to those big JT8's, was pure joy to handle, and the mount of choice in appalling weather.

[brakedwell]

After returning from Singapore I flew BIA Heralds for four months during the winter of 78/79 before joining a new start called Air Europe. My distant memories of the aircraft are very favourable and I would have been happy to have spent longer in what was a very pleasant job. Unfortunately, at that time BIA Herald captains earned less than Crawley bus drivers and I had a family to support!

Pro's: It flew a lot better than it looked. The Herald handled nicely and cruised at a respectable 200 knots. It was remarkably stable and cross wind landings were a piece of doddle, even in a howlng Manx gale! I can't remember ever being delayed by a technical problem. Being snowed in at Jersey and then Guernsey during January 1979 was a high spot. The BIA hosties!

Con's: A Heath Robinson nosewheel steering system, which consisted of left and right micro-switches activated by a small yoke on top of the control wheel. Straight ahead could be a variable wander!
The flight deck could get extremely cold, even on one hour sectors. Dark early morning newspaper flights to Jersey and Guernsey before fitting 50 passenger seats and another four sectors.

[xtypeman]

Along with the book there is a very good DVD as well that has the arrival and departure from ACI in 4 engine version and shots from various south American tours and a start up at STN at the end of there careers.

Ah the whistle of two Darts.......

[p1fel]

Herod,
I have a photograph of the burning wreckage of HPR7 G-AODE, but I suspect due copyright I probably cannot post it here (even if I knew how to!).

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

To get the best out of your Herald in the climb contact Capt Geoff Hyam.

To get the best out of your Herald in a howling Channel Island cross-wind and chuck some fog in at the same too, contact Capt Spenny Spencer.

I realise my advice is about thirty-five years too late but there we are!

Ex BIA Mocon.

[norwich]

Gentlemen ! What a very interesting and educational thread this is, thank you all !
I can add nothing but one photo ..... should you wish to see one of each side by side, still looking reasonably well cared for, then a visit to City of Norwich Aviation Museum !
Interestingly the Dart Herald G-ASKK is the very one that was shown at Farnboroug in 1962 as CF-MCK in Maritime Central colour scheme, if I recall correctly this registration was never taken up .... for whatever reason ??

Keith :)

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/DSC_0024-5.jpg

[pigboat]

Norwich the assets of Maritime Central were acquired around that time by Eastern Provincial Airways. EPA bought two of their own machines, CF-EPI and CF-EPC. They also took CF-NAF and CF-NAC that had been slated for Nordair. NAF was lost to an explosive decompression and inflight breakup while climbing out from Halifax on March 17, 1965. The breakup was caused by corrosion underneath the forward lav.

I was surprised to read that you filed 200 kt with the Herald. I thought it would have been a little faster. We operated a Fairchild F model F-27, and filed 240 in the winter and 230 in the summer.

[p1fel]

My archive photo's of two Herald's I flew.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fieldroost/8162290546/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fieldroost/8162274609/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fieldroost/8162256895/in/photostream/

[UK019]

Ah, the HP7 and the F27! That picture posted by Norwich - I've flown 'em both!

I joined BIA in March 78 and did 2 years on the Herald, getting my first Command on it – and then 9 years on the F27 when we became Air UK, ending up as Training Manager then Fleet Manager, so I have a good insight into the differences.

The Herald was a superb aircraft for a first Command – easy to fly (except, like all turboprops of that generation, on one engine) leaving you to absorb the nuances of being a Captain for the first time. As mentioned, the crosswind handling was a joy compared to the F27 and the flight-deck layout was much better too. There were a few ‘gotchas’ though – for example, the nosewheel steering handle was on the top of the control column and, being hinged at the bottom, was stowable. Folding it away in flight was a bad move - an open invitation to score an own-goal by forgetting to raise it for landing. There followed an agitated, hasty, cursing fumble to vacate the runway … one only did that the once.

As F/O, you always knew if you were going to get a sector (no automatic ‘leg & leg about’ in those times – sectors were ‘granted’ by sir) because there was a steering switch in the centre of the instrument panel to select which nosewheel steering handle was active. If you were going to have a sector bestowed upon you, the Captain would flick it across to the right – usually with an ostentatious flourish, at which point it was ‘de rigueur’ to genuflect in gratitude. The HP7 also had one of the first flight directors – the Sperry Zero Reader – which didn’t cope with any drift – hah! Ours were also originally fitted with half-needle RBIs for the ADF. My NDB approaches using this equipment were almost transcendentally awful, drawing crowds of bemused onlookers.

De-icing was interesting too. The wings had a heat-exchange system using hot (but not bleed) air which exited out of ports on the wingtips thereby generating your very own clear-air turbulence – but that wing, perched high as it was, was not de-iced on the centre-section over the the fuselage and could accrue alarming amounts of ice.

In all other respects, the F27 was a superior aircraft. Commercially, for a similar passenger load, the Herald’s APS weight was about a ton heavier. This meant that you could carry about a thimbleful of fuel with a decent load on the Herald, whereas you were tanking on the F27. We used to fly the F27 direct to Milan (Bergamo) in the mid-80s, which would not have been possible on the Herald – one, because you couldn’t have got the fuel on and two, the F27 would go to FL230. FL170 was the HP7’s top floor; after the Canadian Flight Deck detached, they drastically reduced the max diff. Someone correctly mentioned that the F27 was 30-40Kts faster too.

The F27’s handling in a crosswind could be challenging to say the least. I was teaching a lady to fly the aircraft at Norwich in the mid-80s, and most of her training was conducted in fairly gusty conditions. At the time I was playing golf (poorly) and had complained about developing a nasty slice. When she had completed the course and had left NWI for her base I found a box of golf balls in my pigeon hole with a note from her saying “I hope you keep these straighter than I kept the F27!”

Strangely, planning the descent in the F27 was an art. Whereas in a jet one works on three times the height plus the appropriate increment to slow down, one uses FOUR times the height in an F27. This was because the Dart engine should not be idled in flight – one has to maintain 40 psi torque (some airlines mandated 100 psi) to avoid reduction-gear ‘chattering.’ Even my current mount - the slippery B757 with winglets - is easier to ‘go down and slow down.’

I had a terrific decade on the F27, visiting in the process some challenging airfields which were as mixed as Heathrow at one end of the spectrum and Duxford at the other, and until we got access to a full-flight simulator in 1987, training new guys and girls on the raw aircraft could present some ‘moments’ (my PpRune name is my old Air UK training callsign.) As we had only a couple of aircraft with autopilots and none with flight directors I don’t think my instrument flying skills will ever again match that period.

Happy days – and thanks to Herod who drew my attention to the thread.

JB

[A30yoyo]

G-AODE had visited Croydon before its fire .... lower down on:_Croydon Airport & RAF Croydon Airfield (http://www.controltowers.co.uk/c/croydon_photo.htm)

possibly the only turboprop seen there?

[p1fel]

Great summary JB, only a top trainer would pen!

Am I correct the 'reduction gear chattering' was also known as 'lay shaft chatter'?

Oh that min 40 psi torque!!

Having to 'milk' the HP cock lever to prevent overtemp on engine start.

And what about the moving of the HP cock levers in the cruise to/from lock out. Great care and monitoring needed there.

Another issue was the RR Dart gearbox on the FK27 if over filled with oil, it had a habit of venting the oil out. Red oil pressure light requiring a rapid shutdown to protect the gearbox from damage.

Interesting landing uphill runway 28 into a very strong wind at LBA, had to be quick from selecting ground fine to get the control locks in, avoid touching the brakes before applying power to prevent rolling backwards.

Pneumatic system, minimum 1500/1500/2500 psi before take off. System leaked pressure in cold overnight conditions. Either system had to be bottle charged or wait ages with the engines running to charge to min's.

Also a throttle lever linkage broke on one of the Friendships to one of our colleagues.

The worst incident was a rudder bracket break which was well handled by one of our former colleagues who diverted into Creil. I'll leave it to my friend and former colleague to comment if he wishes to.

Although the friendship was undoubtedly a slicker machine than the Herald, it certainly had its faults.

[Midland 331]

I've read elsewhere that the F27 was very sensitive in pitch when in the cruise, so much so that the movement of the drinks trolley was distinctly noticeable.

So, with no AP, was it hard, tiring work to hand-fly on longer sectors? ABZ-AMS must have been over two hours, and the brief NCL-CPH, circa 1985-6, was around 2hr 35 eastbound and longer westbound. The yokes reminded me of the steering wheel of a mid-fifties tractor.

The noises heard on some of the older Air UK machines used to make me smile. On some, the cabin bell was exactly that, a bell, or so it sounded. And the air systems sounded quaint. Put these two together, and you could be on a tramcar.

Like all Darts, brown liquid streaming back over the nacelles was another quirky feature.

[Turnberry]

A few more memories of Air UK F27s to add to the above:

- first few days as a new command on the F27 and losing all of the contents of the main pneumatic bottle somewhere over the North Sea whilst inbound to Amsterdam. Once the gear had been lowered it would mean, in theory, that we couldn't raise it again. As Amsterdam was 200' overcast we decided to divert to a slightly more favourable Humberside. Interestingly, the main pneumatic bottle started to charge again once we had lowered the gear as the original leak was in the UP line of the undercarriage.

- as mentioned earlier, the gearbox warning light was a manual shutdown if illuminated. This was necessary to protect the accessory gearbox on the F27 as the was no fire protection there. First experience of this was, again, during my first few weeks of command. Light illuminated on final approach to Newcastle - we decided to delay the shutdown until after we had landed.

- the F27 was noticeably faster than the 748, as well. Followed a BA 'Budgie' out of Edinburgh one evening and overhauled him within the first twenty minutes. I believe that, as with the Herald, we had about 30-40 kts speed advantage over him.

- with hindsight, I believe all initial crosswind training for an F27 should have been performed on an Auster or Super Cub or similar - anything more than about 8 knots across I would give it full into wind aileron and full opposite rudder. This seemed to keep it tracking,beautifully, down the centreline on landing.

- my first inflight shutdown of a Dart engine occurred a few weeks before I completed my last flight on the F27. A control rod that was the direct linkage to the FCU on the left side of the starboard Dart engine had snapped at the eye-end. This meant that the engine was operating at minimum power with no throttle control. Manual shutdown as per QRH. Years later, I still don't think I have recovered from the unscheduled Southampton nightstop.

- being invited to take part in the Dutch Friendship Association's 40th Anniversary of the first flight of the F27. You don't get many opportunities to fly around the Netherlands, for two hours, in formation with five other F27s. Abiding memory was, shortly after getting airborne from Schiphol, in a left turn, glancing over my left shoulder and seeing the Dutch Air Force F27 tucked up under my port wing - stunning!

- carrying a CAA Flight Ops Inspector with us on the jumpseat for a couple of sectors. He didn't say much but, before he left us and disembarked in Southampton, he stated that he "wished all new airline pilots could get the chance to fly an aircraft such as this before moving on to bigger things."

Happy memories.

[king surf]

I am amazed my hearing still seems to be intact after 3 years on the Herald with EXS.
I took loads of Video-a lot of fun looking back=happy days indeed

[t7a]

Turnberry - 'Happy memories' indeed, although an even happier one was converting to the F100!!

[Turnberry]

Agreed, T7a.

I was more than ready to transfer to the F100 and enjoyed my short time on it.

Then the VNV came along and it was time for 'pastures new' (along with a large number of other Air UK pilots).

[JammedStab]

Am I correct the 'reduction gear chattering' was also known as 'lay shaft chatter'?

Oh that min 40 psi torque!!

Having to 'milk' the HP cock lever to prevent overtemp on engine start.



The 748 had the same 40 psi minimum for layshaft chatter, but I never did understand fully what layshaft chatter meant. And why was there such a big torque split on takeoff sometimes but no particular yaw from it.

Milking the HP cock seemed to only be an alternative to using the fuel trimmers.

[JammedStab]

Ah the whistle of two Darts.......

Do you really like the sound of two Darts?

Hawker Siddeley 748 Start up - YouTube

Air North HS748 engine start and take-off Vancouver JUL 4/10 - YouTube

[Herod]

Do you really like the sound of two Darts?


Pardon??

Ref the comment on the pneumatic leak, as a colleague once said "the advantage of pneumatics over hydraulics is, in the event of a leak, the sky is full of pneums" More than once departed with the pressure showing normal (ish), only to have the nosewheel light stay at red. keep the speed down below gear-limiting and after a few minutes there would be a "thunk" and the gear would be locked up.

I have to say I liked the F27. Built of girders and would see you safely through anything.

[p1fel]

The 748 had the same 40 psi minimum for layshaft chatter, but I never did understand fully what layshaft chatter meant.

Milking the HP cock seemed to only be an alternative to using the fuel trimmers.

A positive engine driven force through the gearbox was necessary to prevent lay shaft chatter. A torque range between 40 psi and 0 psi could mean the reduction gears receiving prop forces instead of engine driven forces, presumably RR detected increase wear damage to the reduction gears/shaft.

Milking the HP cock was needed after trimming the fuel trimmers back to zero. A normal start, OAT less than 15c fuel trimmers set 100% prior to start. OAT above 15c fuel trimmers set to 50% prior to start. With either setting, as soon as light up occured the EGT would rise rapidly meaning in practise the first action was to trim back to zero, with EGT tending to continue to rise rapidly one had to ease back the fuel HP cock to prevent exceeding EGT start limit.

p.s. It is all a distant nightmare... I mean memory E.O.E. EGT may have been TGT.
p1fel

[Herod]

An odd coincidence. When I was about twelve, and aviation mad, I was living in Western Australia. The local airline, McRobertson Miller was replacing its DC3s with F27s, and the paper ran a competition (I forget what the entry was) with a first prize of a day out with the crew. I won the competition, but the notification arrived too late to take up the offer, and the airline wouldn't budge on an alternative date. Strange to think that some twenty years later I would end up having a command on the same type.

[JammedStab]

Milking the HP cock was needed after trimming the fuel trimmers back to zero. A normal start, OAT less than 15c fuel trimmers set 100% prior to start. OAT above 15c fuel trimmers set to 50% prior to start. With either setting, as soon as light up occured the EGT would rise rapidly meaning in practise the first action was to trim back to zero, with EGT tending to continue to rise rapidly one had to ease back the fuel HP cock to prevent exceeding EGT start limit.

p.s. It is all a distant nightmare... I mean memory E.O.E.
p1fel

Hmmm....Its been quite a while but I thought it was 85% for start below 15 degrees. Maybe that was takeoff. Or was it 85% due to an NTO fron Hawker. Can't remember anymore. Only saw the HP cock used once to trim.

Seem to remember something about an 1830 mod. on the Dart. What was that?

Anyways....back to youtube for more.

[Flap40]

Mod 1860 reduced the cruise EGT to 680c rather than the 730c (720?) for the un modded engine.
In my two years on the aircraft it was rare to see an aircraft with two engines with the same spec.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I had a cockpit trip on a Viacount many years ago and much use was made of the 'fuel trimmers'. What were they?

[DaveReidUK]

I had a cockpit trip on a Viscount many years ago and much use was made of the 'fuel trimmers'. What were they?

Good description here:

http://www.vickersviscount.net/images/Photos_Other_Medium/Fuel%20trim.jpg

Vickers Viscount Network Newsletter May 2012 (http://www.vickersviscount.net/Newsletters/Newsletter1204Print.aspx)

[p1fel]

HI JammedStab.

Well it was 30 years ago!!

I know nothing about the Dart SOP's for the HS748, I'm refering to the engine in the FK27-200 which if memory serves me correctly, was the 528-7E variant.

This SOP was used by two different UK operators of the FK27-200 in those days.

Nice to reminise though!

[pigboat]

I flew the F-27, the Fairchild version, for awhile and this thread brings back a few memories. Re the crosswind. I thought it handled crosswinds pretty well. We used to regularly experience winds of 30kt at one stop, occasionally up to 35kt, but that was pushing it and the runway had to be bare and dry to handle that kind of crosswind. Every autumn we usually experienced pneumatic leaks - primairly from the nosewheel steering system - but after a few days, maintenance would generally clear it up. When it was extremely cold there was really little you could do though, just hope the compressors were up to the task. We delayed flights when the surface temperature hit -40, a not uncommon occurrence in Western Labrador.

With reference to the split torque values. One of our ground instructors was a gentleman by the name of Eric Appleton, an ex-RR engineer. As Eric explained it, when the Gulfstream G159 entered the corporate scene most of the pilots had stepped up from the DC-3. They were used to looking at all the needles in approximately the same places on the engine instruments and when they began to see divergent values on the torque meters, they were quite upset. How can one engine put out rated power at say, 385 psi while the other required 405 psi torque to do the same job. Something was suspect. What RR did, they looked at engine performance in the test cell and paired those that had the same or nearly the same torque values at rated power. Not only that, they jiggled the serial numbers so the pairs were sequential, thus a G1 would have two sequential engines having identical or nearly identical engine parameters. When the F-27 began to be used by corporate operators Rolls simply continued the practice. The fun began when a loaner engine was required and the torque values no longer matched. :D

[emeritus]

Arrghh...the dreaded fuel trimmers.

First Officers were made with left hands so that they could constantly trim the engines.

Basically the Dart fuel control unit (FCU) supplied the req fuel to the power plant, however to maintain the req Jet PipeTemp/Turbine Gas Temp one had to adjust the FuelFlow for changes in atmospheric conditions..eg flying in and out of cloud or changes in OAT. This was achieved by making fine adjustments to the FF with the Trimmers.

In basic language the FCU set 95% of FF and the FO adjusted/set the other 5%

So power settings were RPM and JPT or TGT depending on model of Dart.

As an aside as I recall the original Dart put out around 1200 hp and this was improved over the model range to around 2400 hp due in the main by improvements in the ability of the turbines to accept a higher temp.


Emeritus :8

[emeritus]

Reading back through some previous posts I am suprised to read that the starts sometimes req metering the HP cock in European climes.

In Australia it was common practice particularly in the outback in summertime with temps often up around the low 40's C.

Most times one was using ships battery so Very conscious of not having to abort the start and having the temp needle hovering around the red line.

One tended to use a lot of Water Meth too.

Took off once at Tennant Creek south of Darwin in a Viscount. OAT was ISA +25. Could see the W/M quantity guages dropping during t/o and I'm sure I could hear it gurgling down the pipes!

Emeritus.

[JammedStab]

Reading back through some previous posts I am suprised to read that the starts sometimes req metering the HP cock in European climes.

In Australia it was common practice particularly in the outback in summertime with temps often up around the low 40's C.

Most times one was using ships battery so Very conscious of not having to abort the start and having the temp needle hovering around the red line.

One tended to use a lot of Water Meth too.

Took off once at Tennant Creek south of Darwin in a Viscount. OAT was ISA +25. Could see the W/M quantity guages dropping during t/o and I'm sure I could hear it gurgling down the pipes!

Emeritus.

Hmmm, never operated in temps that warm. We were the other way. Usually performance improves as the OAT gets colder but once you got to an OAT of minus 20 C, performance suddenly dropped off(ie WAT limits). Why.....no more water meth allowed below -20.

[UK019]

Ah, P1fel how right you are - layshaft chatter it was indeed. You'd think I'd remember. Hangs head in shame! :(

And milking the HP Cock - I'd forgotten that too! Emeritus, I seem to recall that we'd be doing that in temperate climes if there was a tailwind or low electrical power.

And that self-emptying gearbox. I was on the approach to EDI RW31 (as it was then) and BOTH lights came on - one solid and one flickering. I declined the brand-new F/O's suggestion ... no, I won't elaborate further - you can guess! Turns out the gearboxes had been refilled overnight by a new guy in the hangar who, the crew-chief told me, had been a postman the week before!!!

Someone mentioned the Creil diversion with a rudder hardover and an engine out. There is a chap on this very forum who is probably too modest to talk about it who was the Captain on that famous flight. It was one of the finest bits of flying I've ever heard of.:ok:

[p1fel]

UK019
I hope he does too :cool:
without over emphasizing the dire straights they were in, just a small bit of recall I have of the incident; the aircraft yawed violently when the rudder bracket failed causing significant uncommanded rudder deflection. Cross control was required to keep the pointy end going forward. I gather it required some very skilful correction :ok: because of the infamously limited aileron control of the FK27 with no rudder control available.

With the fuel system arrangement having a collector tank inboard of the wing, the wing that was low caused the collector tank to empty which resulted in that wings engine to fail which ironically was a god send, as it made the aircraft handling more manageable allowing successful landing at Creil.

[WHBM]

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/7-1985%20G-BHMZ.pdf

[Herod]

I'm not sure the compliments are deserved, but thanks anyway.

In a nutshell, the cause of the problem was loose rivets in the rudder trim tab. As the aircraft accelerated in the descent, the tab started to flutter, and with the loose rivets it had a frequency resonant with the rudder itself. The result was very rapid deflections of the rudder and eventual partial breakup, leaving full starboard rudder applied.

As P1fel said, the fuel system didn't like the angle of bank, and the port engine quit, making life a little easier. After touchdown, with the loss of the correcting bank, the aircraft decided to take to the grass.

Having landed at Creil, the FAF base, we avoided the press until the publication of the report some twelve-months later when the Yorkshire Post ran a headline along the lines of "Passengers Escape Death in Aircraft crash in Paris."

Oh, and 019 and P1fel, don't forget there were two crew on that flight. Sue H was the handling pilot until I took over.

If anyone wants to trudge through the details, they are here.

Air Accidents Investigation: 7/1985 G-BHMZ (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/formal_reports/7_1985_g_bhmz.cfm)

Oh and I've just realised, it was twenty-eight years ago last month. Now that does make me feel old.

[om15]

I worked on all three types over the period from 1979 to around 2000 and held a Type rated licence (A&C) on all three, the Herald was the most challenging to maintain, both the F27 and 748 had a good product support to provide repair drawings, advice, spares and manufacturers repair facilities. The Herald did not have such support, and particularly in the latter years spares were sourced from life expired airframes, often on firedumps.

Each aircraft had its’ own weakness, the Herald nose wheelsteering system has been mentioned, the F27 freezing and leaking pneumatics,748 gust lock problems, however all three benefitted from a good robust engineand prop system.

The Herald was by far the best freighter, with the large double doors at the back ( less chance of hitting the prop with the fork lift)and a virtually indestructible cargo bay, the solid airframe could take farmore impact damage from careless or hurried loading. Dispatch reliability was around the same for all types, common problems were electrical snags, hydraulicrapid cycling, anti icing systems not working.

In the early nineties a programme of freight conversion was carried out on the Heralds, incorporating a class E smoke compartment and weight reduction modifications, in one case the removal of all non-essential systems and sound proofing increased the pay load by 500 kg, this gave the aircraft nearly a decade of good service, however lack of spares, and changes in regulations meant that the last flight was in early 1999, a well-known south coast freight operator replaced the Herald with the F27, but the aircraft wasnot nearly as robust as the Herald and suffered a much higher accident rate.

The book by Graham Cowell (ISBN 0 7106 0045 3 ) outlined the development proposals for the Herald,including the replacement of the Darts with Speys ( the Jet Herald), and alsosupplementing the Darts with CF700 engines in wing tip pods, that would havebeen interesting to maintain.

[UK019]

Ah yes Herod, Sue - I wonder where she is now. You'll see a picture of her on our reunion site.

I have always liked your "Herod" title and am constantly reminded of the schoolboy 'howler:'

"Salami danced naked in front of Harrods"

;)

[Herod]

UK019. Chosen because he was a much misunderstood and underrated leader who was around before Pontius even started basic training.

On a more serious note, I think the worst situation AirUK had was Des Holdcroft's accident at Schiphol. The starboard main gear wouldn't lock down and collapsed following a textbook landing. IIRC it was Des's first sector in command - quite a start.

I can't get the video to link, but a search of "F27 + Schiphol" will bring it up.

Strangely I can't seem to find the accident report on the AAIB website.

Herod (Antipas)

[JammedStab]

748 gust lock problems, however all three benefitted from a good robust engineand prop system.[/FONT][/COLOR]



Gust lock problems?

Was that the elevator locking on the takeoff roll? I remember you were supposed to move it up and down at some point during the roll.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

748 off the end and into the sea at Sumburgh? Presumably he'd done the 'full and free' pre t/o and the lock re-engaged during the t/o roll?

[Herod]

The report on that nasty accident is here.

Air Accidents Investigation: 1/1981 G-BEKF (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/formal_reports/1_1981_g_bekf.cfm)

[old,not bold]

Since we are recalling examples of superb flying in F27s, I have been cudgelling my 3 remaining brain cells for the name of the pilot who extended and locked a recaltricant main leg by landing hard on the other one which had locked properly, in a "touch-and-go" with a difference.

I knew that this procedure was written up as a last resort, but I never thought I would meet someone who had done it.

As far as I can remember, it happened at Dubai in the 1970s, on a Gulf Air scheduled flight with a full load of passengers.

[p1fel]

As we are comparing the virtues or otherwise of the HPR7 and the FK27, although I flew the FK27 four times longer than the HP7, inevitably one is potentially slightly more exposed to issue's with the later.

Regarding the Herald, operating the spill valves to de pressurise the aircraft was quite interesting. When it was your approach as an f.o, one had to swap hands whilst flying the ILS to operate the spill valves below and to the right of your right shoulder. The flight deck layout was a bit of a mess, with Inverters switches all over the place as bits of necessary equipment kept being added. Other than the nose wheel steering handle's, I do not recall any other particular issues with the Herald to that previously mentioned in other posts.

Regarding the Friendship, I once had to hold before arrival into the Isle Of Man. (if I recall correctly it was an NDB at Carnane)
As was very often the case, holding was due to awful weather at Ronaldsway airport.
We had been holding for some 20 minutes or so, in icing conditions and careful monitoring of the ice build and appropriate timing to break off the ice using the de icing boots was required.
Eventually we landed safely, to find that the vertical stabiliser had about 3" of ice build up which hadn't been shed, the issue was with moisture in the system freezing, preventing the vertical stabiliser boot from inflating.

[WHBM]

....extended and locked a recaltricant main leg by landing hard on the other one which had locked properly, in a "touch-and-go" with a difference.

I knew that this procedure was written up as a last resort, but I never thought I would meet someone who had done it.
Piedmont Airlines 737 had a go at the same in Charlotte NC, as the start of this video on YouTube exactly shows. Unfortunately this time it didn't work and so it continues to the one gear landing

Piedmont Airlines 737 Landing gear up landing - YouTube

As far as I recall the ground crew at departure had stowed the chocks inside the wheel well (:rolleyes:) and then forgotten about them, and they subsequently jammed the gear when it was retracted on lift-off. Piedmont management were a group of pleasant Southern gentlemen but there was a stream of instant dismissals the next day when the reason was discovered.

[om15]

A JEA F27 suffered a main gear failure at Lulsgate around 1991 (or 2), the right hand drag strut failured, the cause of failure was a change of section machining at the upper end had insufficient radius and a radial crack had formed leading to a fracture of the strut, shortly afterwards a second F27 had identical failure at Baroda in India (East West Airllines), I remember that the crack was obscured by the lower attaching clamp of the small spade door and so was not obvious on inspection.

The HP7 had a main gear problem also, the door sequence valve striker arm failed due to age/fatigue/incorrect rigging, and when fractured the main gear would hang up, generally found on maintenace before disaster struck, however G-BEZB did an inelegent arrival at Guernsey in 1984 with one main locked up due to this,

br om15

[p1fel]

Air UK F27 video at AMS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzQ6LZri4eU

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Very nice landing! I wonder if he thought he'd pulled it off, before the leg finally folded?

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

On the 25th of April 1977, I was the first officer on the hastily de-seated BAF Herald G-BCZG, flying from Groningen to Stavanger with the replacement blow-out preventer for the rig Ekofisk B which had popped its cork. The BOP was a massively impressive piece of kit, sitting squat and mounted mid-cabin on load spreaders. I forget what it weighed, but it was A LOT.

Fortunately, as it turned out, we had an engineer with us, because offloading at Stavanger, it slipped off the spreaders, and went through the cabin floor like a knife through butter. Much consternation, but having secured it, careful examination revealed that it had missed all the control runs and hadn't pierced the fuselage skin. After some considerable time and difficulty, it got fork-lifted off. (I could imagine Texas Red jumping up and down, demanding to know where in tarnation was that goddam Bee Oh Pee. Yes, it was the great man himself on the scene, out at the rig.)

We were out of hours by then - this hadn't quite been the start of the day's fun - so an unscheduled nightstop was spent in SVG finding out how expensive beer is in Scarwegia. :)

[p1fel]

The HPR7 certainly was a good cargo carrier. We had a lead lined coffin which was massive and very heavy. Servisair at MAN had great difficulty getting it loaded, but load it they did. Both rear cargo doors required opening to get it in using a fork lift truck. The Friendship would not have been able to carry it to the IOM with a load of passengers as we successfully did with the Herald in 1980.

[pigboat]

Since we are recalling examples of superb flying in F27s, I have been cudgelling my 3 remaining brain cells for the name of the pilot who extended and locked a recaltricant main leg by landing hard on the other one which had locked properly, in a "touch-and-go" with a difference.

I had the same problem once with a G1 nosewheel. The gear was down, you could see that in the polished prop spinner, but there was an unsafe indication and the horn would go when we throttled back. We tried everything in the book, g-loads, blow it down with the emergency system etc. but still no go. By this time our maintenance was in contact with Gulfstream and when I suggested we do a touch-and-go and bang the nosewheel on the runway to try and knock it locked, the answer was "Why not, you got nothing to lose." We did a normal touch and go, I only let the nosewheel touch momentarily , but it worked. A couple of months later we were at FSI on a refresher, and during the emergency procedures session the instructor mentioned there had been an instance where a crew had used a touch and go to get a reluctant nosewheel to lock down. He called it the Hail Mary procedure of gear extension.

Quebecair lost an F-27 in 1978 or 79 in Quebec City when the right prop and part of the compressor secton fell off the aircraft right at rotation. Short version of the story, they got an uncontrollable engine fire, shrapnel from the engine entered the DC electrical panel behind the co-pilot's seat and they were unable to raise the gear. Additionally the lower cowling had jammed down against the MLG drag strut. It was at night and they were taking off on R06, weather was crappy, a couple hundred feet and a mile viz in fog and mist. They turned right to try and complete a visual circuit and landing on R30, and almost made it back, but the stew moved the passengers sitting on the right side of the aircraft over to the left side to keep them away from the fire. Moving the passengers around put the airplane out of the rear CofG limits and they crashed just short of the R30 approach lights. There were a few survivors, but the three crew were killed. I believe there was a similar accident in Rome around the same time.

[dhavillandpilot]

I remember my dad going to Holland years after he retired on a holiday. Whilst there he and mum visited the Fokker factory, only to be warmly welcomed. It turns out he was the most senior in hours on type (F27) in the world.

He started flying on the F27-200 at the introduction of the type for Airlines of NSW, with a ferry flight from Holand to Australia and progressed to finish his career on the F27-500. The reason for the high hours was all the other senior pilots went on to fly the F28, but dad decided he liked the of F27.

Finished his career with a 12 month stint as one of the Captains on the Sandringhams flying between Sydney and lord Howe. he thought this was just like one long holiday.

As a side note, I put dad on one of our aircraft for a ride about 5 years ago. He sat next to the young pilot, who upon learning dad had "flown during the war" offered dad a go at the controls.

My father flew a perect approach down to 500 feet when the young pilot took over. After landing the young pilot complimented dad on his skills remarking how he hadn't lost any of them since the end of the war. The conversation finished with the young pilot inquiring how many hours dad had managed to get - thinking the answere may have been around 600 or so.

Imagine the young pilots face when dad in his laconic way casually mention he actually had 26,000 hours.

[Phileas Fogg]

The country is "Netherlands", not "Holland"!!!

[The SSK]

KLM's inflight magazine os called 'Holland Herald'. So the thread drifts back slightly towards its proper track ...

[Phileas Fogg]

Much the same as the "English", and the majority of foreigners, refer to the British Isles as "England" ... The Dutch have also given up trying to educate the foreigners!!!

I live overseas where the most frequent tourists are Aussies ... When they refer to the British Isles as "England This and England That" I question why they called it "New South Wales" and not "New South England"! :)

[t7a]

:ugh:Good grief!!!

[t7a]

Do all you F27 aviators remember the first flight of the day gymnastics? Doing the feathering checks correctly before you ran out of oil pressure? And checking the maxarets before running out of air pressure?

[brakedwell]

While we are at it can somebody put the N in Hadley. Handley Page built the Herald, not Hadley Page :ugh:

[JammedStab]

Regarding the Herald, operating the spill valves to de pressurise the aircraft was quite interesting. When it was your approach as an f.o, one had to swap hands whilst flying the ILS to operate the spill valves below and to the right of your right shoulder.

And I thought only the 748 would be silly enough to have something like that.

[brakedwell]

Similar system in the Britannia - must be a British thing :rolleyes:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Was it the Beaufighter that had colour-coded fuel cocks located behind the pilots left elbow? Very useful for those individuals endowed with colour-sensitive elbows!

[pigboat]

o all you F27 aviators remember the first flight of the day gymnastics? Doing the feathering checks correctly before you ran out of oil pressure? And checking the maxarets before running out of air pressure?

Heh heh, remember it well. It was always feasible to carry a package of handy-wipes to clean your hands off after the maxaret check.

The Fairchild prototype suffered a gear collapse on the ground early in the flight test program. They'd come back from a test flight and the crew went to lunch. More flight tests were scheduled that afternoon, so nobody had installed the gear pins. A mechanic was walking by the aircraft and heard a hissing noise from one of the pneumatic vents forward of the cargo door. "Ha ah!" said he "There's a pneumatic leak!" so he pressed a finger over the hole from whence the air was hissing, which happened to be the emergency pneumatic vent. By some feat of pneumatic sorcery the system though "There is now positive pressure on this side of this valve, therefore we are airborne, why is the gear extended? I shall remedy this forthwith" and the gear retracted. :ooh:

[spacegrand]

Well done H. You all did have a great time in France though.

[oxo]

Very nice landing! I wonder if he thought he'd pulled it off, before the leg finally folded?

No, he knew it would collapse.

Really nice to see that vid of my old friend Des. Absolutely superb pilot.

[Flightwatch]

I started my aviation career in 1966 flying the HS748. Now I am retired, however one of my original examples is still paying it’s way flying (albeit unpressurised) as a freighter in Northern Canada some 46 years later.

If it is of any useful comparison, the relative success of the types might be gauged by the statistics of number of examples still in civil use today

HP7 0/50 built
F27 33/758 (inc Fairchild production)
748 34/361

And the winner is ………………….?

[brakedwell]

And the winner is ………………….?

The Hadley Avo Foker 78?

[Herod]

Pigboat. You used your hands to test the Maxarets? A swift flick with the toe of a shoe seemed to do the job perfectly.

As oxo says, Des knew the gear would probably collapse. Hence his holding that wing up as long as possible. Brilliant job, well executed.

[VictorGolf]

As SLF I was much impressed by the approach in to Interlaken in a Globe Air Herald in September 1966. We arrived in the overhead then descended in what seemed to be quite a steep 360 degree turn on to finals. I guess the Swiss pilot flew Swiss Air Force Venoms at the weekend.
Not quite so impressed with a flight back from Frankfurt in 1986 in an Air UK F-27 which the pilot said had been dragged out of the jungle in Africa somewhere and put back in to service. Anyway aforesaid pilot came back and said he was opening the bar for free as there were strong headwinds and it was going to take longer than the usual 1hr 40 minutes. However this wasn't as generous as it might sound as there only 4 passengers on board but it did take 2hrs 15mins. My ears didn't stop ringing for some time after that. Things improved when the 146s arrived but that's another story.

[t7a]

Herod, you're correct about the toe. I can't remember whether it was Bob D or Roy H at Norwich who exhausted the last of the air pressure and was left hanging onto the gear strut screaming for assistance as the aircraft rolled gently back towards the terminal windows!

[Herod]

If I recall, it was Rocket Socks!

[t7a]

He of the ' I'll just have a small morangie' fame eh.:ok:

[Michelangeloman]

I remember the F27 well having amassed around 2000hrs on the old girl. A lot of firsts for me - 1st proper airplane, 1st command, 1st engine failure ( no fun at all on a 100 series), 1st electrical failure. I think to say I 'cut my teeth' on the old girl is probably a bit of an understatement but the experience has stood me in very good stead as my career progressed. I remember once I was tasked with taking one with a time-ex engine down to BM engineering at East Mids for an engine change. The deal was to stay with the aircraft and bring it back to base on completion. By day 2 I was a bit bored so I wandered over to the hanger to check progress and to have a look around as you do. I was in one of the maintenance rooms when I noticed a Dart engine on a stand. To say this thing had been through the wars was an understatement The (external) canular combustion chambers were so bad they had holes in them and the rest of the engine was no better - the whole thing looked to my eyes a complete mess. So with piqued curiosity I asked the guy in the workshop where they had found it. The answer was " we have just taken it off your airplane." The engine performed fine on the way in except the TGT was a bit higher than usual. Amazing engines. I must say I never really saw those engines in the same way after that, even though with 1 exception they never let me down.

[Herod]

Michelangeloman. Battered they may have been, but they kept running, didn't they? One thing all three types benefitted from was the Dart. Tough as old boots, minimal maintenance (waits for replies from engineers), never let you down. Again I confess a bias, but I never felt unsafe in the F27.

[om15]

1960s Air Manila advertisement for the Herald



http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/AirManilaadvert.jpg

[om15]

G-ATDS fully laden departing Bournemouth for Jersey summer 1984,

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/G-ATDSbournemouthsummer1984.jpg

[om15]

Air Uk Hangar at Norwich June 1984, at the rear is G-BEZB having a belly skin replacement following landing incident in Guernsey, at the front is Skyguard G-AYMG on rotine maintenance, operating from Birmingham carrying post and general freight

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/HeraldsatNorwichMay1984.jpg

[om15]

G-JEAH F27-500 shortly after landing at Lulsgate with a fractured drag strut, the engine, prop and drag strut replaced, temp repairs carried out and aircraft ferried to Exeter for repairs 3 days later.

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/G-JEAHLulsgateMarch1993.jpg

[om15]

G-JEAI on air test from Exeter 1990, first of a batch from Australia operated by JEA,

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/G-JEAIF271990atExeter.jpg

[om15]

G-CEXA F27 freighter, repairs following a hard landing in Jersey,

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/G-CEXARepairsJuly1997.jpg

[om15]

G-JEAP at Coventry July 2000 after using the perimeter fence as an arrester hook, notice the forward part of the cockpit is on the road with double yellow lines under the foam


http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/G-JEAPcockpitatcoventry.jpg

[om15]

G-JEAP at Coventry, following the incident local plod attached a parking ticket as the aircraft was on double yellow lines.

Thats all for tonight, I hope this has brought back a few memories, pretty good fun times compared to the EASA nightmares these days


http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/G-JEAPparkingticket.jpg

[UK019]

Herod, it was indeed Rocket Socks (RIP) who was seen trying, with his bare hands and screeching heels, to hold 12 tonnes of G-BLFJ rolling backwards - and, t7a, not towards the terminal, it was towards the hangar, but its rearwards travel was arrested by the catering van! Dick Holt (also RIP) was hanging out of the adjacent F27 DV window utterly helpless with mirth.

Poor old Rocket Socks ("mine's a double Glemorangie thanks old boy" "Gently gently old boy - look outside the window, see how fast you're going") had a somewhat unfortunate relationship with the pneumatic isolation bar - did a little 'gardening' at Stavanger one day, bless him.

I landed at NWI only a couple of months ago to take an aircraft to the paint shop and as I taxied past the very spot I described the incident to my colleague - how odd that it should be recalled again here.

[pigboat]

I started my aviation career in 1966 flying the HS748. Now I am retired, however one of my original examples is still paying it’s way flying (albeit unpressurised) as a freighter in Northern Canada some 46 years later.

Flightwatch if that aircraft is CF-AGI it was, I believe, the first HS748 to fly commercially in Canada. It was acquired brand new by Michael Pouliot of Air Gaspe Inc, hence the registration. It changed hands several times and now flies for Air North, based in Whitehorse, YK.

Quebecair had three gear accidents with their Fairchilds over the years. In the first one the aircraft was taxiing in and ran into a hole in the gravel taxiway that had been dug for a soil sample. The gravel hadn't been tamped properly. I can't remember the results of that one, it was a couple of years before my time. In the second they undershot the runway at Havre St. Pierre and hit the lip of the gravel runway with the right main. It broke the gear scissors, but they managed a go around. With the scissors being broken, there was nothing to hold the gear sliding member and it slid out to the stops and the gear wouldn't enter the well. They flew the airplane back here where a gear up landing was carried out. There was surprisingly little damage. The airplane remained upright and it was simply jacked up and the right gear replaced, the belly taped up and it was ferried back to Montreal for permanent repair. In the third one, they had done an emergency gear extension. Upon arriving at the gate, after a brief discussion with the co-pilot who objected strenuously, the Captain place the emergency gear selector back to the normal position, with predictable results. The Captain was an older gentleman who'd instructed in the military during WW2, and possessed a lengthy vocabulary of profanity. I didn't hear the CVR tape, but I'm told he used all of it as the airplane sank to the ground. Apparently there was more damage to the airframe in that accident than there was with the gear up landing. The nosewheel was chocked, and as the mains collapsed they tried to force the nosewheel against the chock.

We suffered a collapsed nosewheel with our machine. The crew had returned from a flight and were turning around in front of the hangar when the nose wheel follow-up mechanism came unshipped and kicked the nose wheel down lock off. Oops! I ferried the airplane to Montreal for repairs with the nosewheel down and the mains retracted.

[Flightwatch]

“My” a/c was c/n 1576 delivered new in Feb 1965. It then went through a succession of airlines mainly in Asia and Africa before arriving in Canada in 1989. It’s previous identities were:

G-ATAM, XA-SEI, PI-C1020, G-ATAM, 9G-ABV, G-ATAM, OY-DFS, G-ATAM, 9J-ABL, ZS-HAS, G-ATAM, TR-LQY

It is now C-GMAA operated by Wasaya Airways and based I believe in Pickle Lake and Red Lake.

http://website.lineone.net/~biggles200/G-ATAM%20Avro%20748.jpg

C-FAGI is a relative newcomer having been built in 1971.

The 5th oldest 748 still flying I think she has done pretty well in her long career!

[lights to minimum]

Herod, you are correct, it was Rocket Sox kicking the maxarets but BD was in the galley asking the girls for a cup of tea and a buscuit with his usual "hows you, hows you", and failing to push the isolating pin in.
Result - brake release due to lack of pneumatic pressure - and the wonderful sight of our handlebar moustached hero hanging on to the drag strut with smoke pouring from his shoes as the aeroplane rolled gently back into the catering van.

I have a cartoon somewhere whch I will post if I can find it.

Happy days

[pigboat]

Thanks for that Flightwatch.

Wasaya lost a 748 - CF-FFW - last summer at a place called Sandy Lake, ON. They were hauling fuel, using a 'Honda pump' to pump the fuel out of the aircraft and the pump caught on fire. They still have 3 machines left. For northern fly-in settlements where ground transportation is not available in the summer, the 748 is pretty near indispensable. Here's the accident thread from another board.

Hawker on fire in Sandy Lake. (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=82080)

Here's a nice shot of a First Air (ex Bradley Air Service) Whisperliner on the approach down the fjord at Pangnirtung, Baffin Island.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/download/file.php?id=4283

[tornadoken]

pig: that is not a nice shot. It's simply stupendous.

[Hussar 54]

Never had the pleasure of the Herald, but over 2,000 hours on the F27 and....

Not bad.....Not bad at all.....But just a half decent A/P and much more relaxing it all could have been..... Until just a couple of years ago, we were VFR-ing around North and West Africa ( our choice - rather trust ourselves than ATC ) and would have loved something to make it less tiring.....Other than that, always felt safe in the various F27's I worked on and only a single brown trouser day was an RTO when our nose cowl vanished over the top of the fuselage at 80kts at CMN....Never did find out why, but not too bad for almost 8 years in a 40 something years old airframe with a 90+% on time despatch rate in darkest of dark Africa but where lack of spares could keep us AOG for days if not weeks.....We traded ours for a couple of older ATR's a couple of years ago - expensive experience to say the least.....

As for the 748.....My step-father spent 10 years at Avro in Woodford screwing them together and always said it was was built to last - if only he knew now, 40 years later !! Mind you, he also said that about Shackletons and Vulcans.....

[pigboat]

tornadoken I can't claim to have taken that shot, but I don't know who did. I nicked it from an aviation photo thread on another board. I believe it was taken for the Captain on the airplane that day. That approach can be quite exciting if the winds are high enough.

Here's another pic in a less spectacular setting.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a343/rowdypilot/elkmay095.jpg

[JRFD]

Any chance we could have the spelling corrected to Handley Page?
This great Company at least deserves to be recognised with the correct name!

[t7a]

:ugh:Good grief (again)!!

[p1fel]

HPR7 normal checklist Fuel contents table, hard to believe full tanks 3888 Kgs :ooh: with that amount left in the tanks in last machine I flew, I'd feel very uncomfortable.
HPR7 Normal Checklist | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fieldroost/8219650627/in/photostream)

[pigboat]

p1fel all I got was the dreaded red X.

That sure wasn't a whole lot of fuel, after 4 hours you must have been looking for a place to land. The F model of the F-27 could carry tons of fuel. Standard with full outboard tanks was 9200 lbs, and depending on how many cells in the wing center section could run as high as 14,000 lbs. In addition, there was a mod, ECP245 if memory serves, that added a bladder tank in each nacelle giving a total of 15,000 lbs of fuel. With that fuel you could carry the three crew and their baggage and that was it. I only know of two machines with this mod, ours and another that was flown by a company in Corsica.

[JammedStab]

pig: that is not a nice shot. It's simply stupendous.

Yeah...the only problem is that much of the time this is done at night.

[pigboat]

Well, beginning about now until the end of January they don't get a whole lot of daylight in Pang. :D

[Airbanda]

I was a teenage enthusiast at Leeds in the mid seventies.

Air Anglia F27s passed through morning and evening on the NWI/LBA/EDI/ABZ bus stop service. From around 75 they took over the Amsterdam route from BA and upped the frequency from three rotations a week to twice daily. The AMS aircraft was stationed at Leeds and was notionally idle between the am and pm rotations. It was however used for crew training so it would either be round the circuit, practising the NDB/ILS procedural approach or on a longer sector to another base. One pilot, I assume the trainer had a very distinctive clipped accent and a tendency to refer to the QFE as 'the fox-echo'.

Must have been June 76 start of the long hot summer, only time I've seen an airliner nearly come to grief. Cannot remember the airframe - there were about five at the time. Departure from 33 and just airborne one of the engines was cut - you could hear it run down. Now whether the trainee messed up or whether, as some said doing engine out practice in the prevailing OAT was foolhardy, I don't know but the aircraft crossed the threshold level and then sank gently until almost disappearing below trees by Yeadon cem. The crash alarm was sounded just as recovery was achieved and the a/c climbed away.

None of us present had a radio so not able to glean anything from that. Nothing ever reported either.

And on another AQ related note here's a picture of an unusual type livery combo:

Handley Page HPR.7 Herald 214, G-ASVO, Air Anglia (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1040684/)

G ASVO was wet leased from BMA in spring 75 to cover an F27 overhaul.

[Herod]

Airbanda, that picture has got to be a one-off. Never knew AA operated the Herald, even on lease. I was based at LBA from the end of '80 to the end of
'91, F27, Shorts 3-60 (thankfully only for a short time), BAe 146. The engine-out procedure off 33 in the F27 was a turn down the valley, leaving the tarn on the left and going over the cemetery. No way were you going to clear the Chevin. Thankfully never had to do it for real, as it could have been interesting, especially in our -100 G-SPUD/G-BLFJ.

[DH106]

Airbanda - I too grew up around LBA in the late 70's/early 80's and remember with fondness the Air Anglia F-27s and the (seasonal?) BIA Heralds to the IOM.

One moment of drama I can recall is a fairly close 'near miss' between an A.A. F-27 and a Cessna150 in the circuit. I watched the F-27 departing on R33 from the open viewing area to the right of the terminal. Takeoff was normal until airborne but after the gear was raised the pilot flying seemed to keep the nose very low and not gain any height at all - crossing the Harrogate road perhaps 50ft or so above the approach lighting. It was only then that I noticed the C150 flying across it's path perhaps a couple of hundred feet above at most - after having apparently turned RIGHT from a R28 departure. Presumably this was a student pilot c*ck-p in the C150, having turned right instead of the more usual left hand circuit from R28.

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

A good proportion of my initial line training with BAF in March 1976 was on G-BCWE, which was on wet lease to Air Anglia, flying Leeds-Amsterdam. It wasn't a total wet lease, because we had an Air Anglia stewardess teamed up with us for the week, the sole cabin crew member. (BAF always operated with two stewardesses on the fifty seat Herald.)

The superior performance of the F27 was amply demonstrated one evening when the Air Anglia Fokker took off behind us out of Schiphol, and proceeded to outclimb and overtake us, on its way to Newcastle - or was it Edinburgh? But hey-ho, I'd finally broken the magic 5,700kg barrier, and I had an aircraft with gas turbines, AC electrics, and pressurisation - of a sort - ARB (General) for the passing of!

BAF eventually acquired the British Midland Herald G-ASVO, and I got to know this aircraft very well on the Gulf-Air wet lease in Bahrain in the spring of 1977, until it was replaced by G-BAVX for the last few weeks of the contract.

[pigboat]

One moment of drama I can recall is a fairly close 'near miss' between an A.A. F-27 and a Cessna150 in the circuit.
American c&w singer Charley Pride survived a mid air collision between his F-27 and a C172. Both aboard the 172 were killed and most of the vertical fin was lopped off the F-27.

Charley Pride and band survive mid air collision that killed two. (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19800806&id=XvhVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5-EDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3915,2057529)

[om15]

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/IMG_0323.jpg

Taken in June 1992 following a major overhaul at Exeter, freight conversion carried out together with upgrade in avionics and improved electical systems, ( static inverters ), originally operated by Sadia, went on to BAF and BIA as G-BEBB, following service with Janus at Lydd became semi derelict for several years before operating with Channel Express.

br om15

[om15]

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/IMG_0316.jpg


HZ-KA8 operating from Batha Strip in Saudia Arabia, photo taken in Oct 1996, the aircraft had a military strenthened frieght floor and operated around the Empty Quarter in a combi config carrying mixed cargo, construction workers and equipment.
Suffered from sand erosion of the engine compressors due to the environment, but other than that was extremely reliable, operated for several years with an annual visit to Exeter for maintenance.

[Heathrow Harry]

isn't there a bit of a Herald at Woodley near Reading?

[DaveReidUK]

isn't there a bit of a Herald at Woodley near Reading?

No, there's an entire one:

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1168928M.jpg

G-APWA, looking a tad grubby these days ...

[wub]

My first ever flight was in BEA Herald G-APWC, Turnhouse to Renfrew. Cost 13/-

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

OK, so hands up all those who got the Herald ARB exam paper which had the "What is the Irving Beak" question? Yours truly's response to reading this was: "The Irving ******* what??!!"

The Irving Beak is an aerodynamic mass balance in the leading edge of the rudder - that notch-shaped discontinuity which shows well in the photo of G-CEAS, above the rose. I'd never come across it before, or since, so perhaps it's unique to the Herald. The technical manual mentioned it once, in passing, but needless to say some bright spark at the ARB seized upon it with glee! :hmm:

[Planemike]

JRFD

Any chance we could have the spelling corrected to Handley Page?
This great Company at least deserves to be recognised with the correct name!


Yes please, can someone put an "n" in, to make it Handley-Page. Sir Fredrick must be turning in his grave !!!!

Planemike

[mustbeaboeing]

G-APWA HP Herald 100 series

I used to work for a company that used to handle BAF. 1977/78

The groan/moan that used to come from the refuelling company when they were advised of it's arrival.

Over-wing refuelling. Boy, did they 'Love It' :ugh:

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Apart from the major drawback of the lack of single-point pressure refuelling, 'WA was non-standard in other important respects. The engine fire extinguishers were operated by big red buttons in a panel above the centre windscreen, instead of the internally lit handles either side of the CWS panel on the front coaming. A short differences course was necessary in order to get checked out on it, which I managed to avoid, somehow.

This was the aircraft that HRH Prince Philip took on a sales tour of South America, and there was a commemorative plaque on the rear cabin bulkhead. Unfortunately, it mis-spelled his name - 'Phillip' - tut, tut. I wonder if it's still there? :)

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

In 1966 Autair purchased three Heralds from The Ministry of Aviation.
G-APWB/C/D. They had been used by BEA on their Highlands and Islands network and were in very bad nick. At the time of their purchase they were not cleared for pressurised operation and on their arrival at Luton spent months sitting outside our hangar before eventually undergoing extensive maintenance and being put to work on the Scheduled Services. However we were a resourceful lot at Autair and during this fallow period these wrecks very occasionally took to the skies. I do recall the coldest 'Joyride' of my life when on a very cold winter's night one of our 748s (Pete Hogg) burst a tyre at Glasgow and Len Prudence together with a gaggle of engineers and me took a Herald up to Glasgow with the spare wheel. There were no seats in the cabin, no pressurisation and naturally enough no heating. Brass Monkeys indeed!

Incidentally both G-APWA and G-ASKK saw service with Autair in 1963.

I well remember G-ASKK having a lousy serviceability record during my time with BIA (73-78) she certainly kept my grey matter in good working order. To me it is ironic but nevertheless pleasing to know that she survived to be preserved today at Norwich not thirty minutes away from my home.

[pigboat]

I just recieved a short video on the now-defunct Nordair. Nice little tribute, but fast forward to the 5:46 mark and there's an in-flight shot of an MCA Herald with what looks like some passengers being heaved out the door. :ooh:

ttYuPdO3WkU

[bigal1941]

At about 5 min in there is a crew shot, and the gentleman in the P1 seat whose name was totally unpronouncible, crewed a Dakota from Bari to somwhere near Peenamunde on the Baltic in WW2 to collect a V1/V2 liberated by the Polish Resistance. The Dakota got stuck in the mud and with the occupying forces becoming aware of a Dakota at full power, the crew calmly dug it out. Fuller details can be found in an Obituary from the Daily Telegraph of a few weeks ago. He was apparently chief pilot with Nordair and in WW2 a brave man indeed. Alan

[Wander00]

Bigal - I think that incident forms part of a feature film made either during or just after the war - it might also featrure in the film "Operation Crossbow", but I am not sure on that later one.

[om15]

G-ASVO operated as a freighter with Channel Express with that registration until early 1997, following a taxi accident at Bournemouth it was declared as unrepairable and withdrawn from service.
http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/IMG_0327.jpg


G-BAVX became G-DGLD and again operated with Channel Express until 1996 when it was withdrawn from service due to the condition of the aircraft.

The ex BAF aircraft that were bought by Channel Express were generally re registered to prevent any liens in Europe from being applied when operating to European destinations.

br om15

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y386/tom1125/P1000688.jpg

[oldandbald]

Nice postcard ! Bringing back memories of my first years in ATC at Luton. Question.. When Autair retired the Heralds we were treated to a short formation "display" by all three aircraft at Luton, does anyone have photos of this event ?

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

The only photo I have seen is on page 68 of the book 'Colours in the Sky' (History of Autair and Court Line) by Graham Simons. Out of print and prices now asked for it are often exorbitant. Your best bet a well-known internet auction site. I think that Capt Jimmy Gross was Red 1 !

[Level bust]

I managed to get 4 trips in Autair's Heralds when my Dad worked for them. One of which was an epic day trip to Jersey that he scrounged a family trip on. The only trouble was it went via Hull! But as the flight was full out of Hull we had to be coached to RAF Leconfield as it couldn't depart from Hull with a full load, because of the chimneys at the end of the runway I believe. I seem to recall we didn't get long in Jersey. My log book shows we spent a total of 4 hours 45 minutes in the air.

[koreafan]

Hi all

Just came across this thread while researching data for a book on the Herald.

I hope you don't mind me asking for data, photos and info here as I have quite a few unanswered questions, particularly surrounding some aircraft that flew with BIA/Air UK/Chan Ex.

Please feel free to send me a PM if you'd like to contact me directly.

Thanks
Martin

[Phildm]

I was posting about my Grand parents who died in the June 1967 Air Ferry crash and I thought I would take a look at Handley Page as my mum used to work there, and this thread about the Dart Hearald came up,which was what she worked on.

Mum, named Margaret worked there between 1960 and 1964 in the design offices (though not as a designer) and at the time was taken up to take photos of the plane, how it performed and that sort of thing. I wonder if any one remembers her. Sadly it was her mum and dad that were in the Air Ferry plane.

[Mr Oleo Strut]

Forgive them, Sir Fred - they really do mean Handley Page. Shortly before the big crash of the company the old chap came down to Woodley to talk to us apprentices, and said that he was going to offer us the chance to take flying lessons. We all volunteered to a man but it was too late. I worked on WA and the Woodley Heralds, Hasting main-spar renewals, and Victor bits and pieces and it was all good fun while it lasted. At Woodley there were memories and the ghost of Miles everywhere, and I can still hear the 'miaowww' of the Darts on taxiing even though its more than fifty years ago. But its history now, just part of the archives, like this good, old thread, but many thanks to all for having revived such pleasant memories of a different age. Now its back to the degreasing tank for me and the whiff of trico...
PS: We firmly believed that the Herald won hands-down against the 748 at the Martlesham rough/short field trials, but we would, wouldn't we!

[Sir Niall Dementia]

748s (Pete Hogg)

Same Pete Hogg who spent a few years as a guest of Her Majesty for not disposing of his late wife well enough?

SND