Fatal Crash, Replica Mustang, Emu Gully Airstrip, Queensland

[Rotor Work]

From ABC News

A light plane has crashed at Helidon Spa in the Lockyer Valley west of Brisbane.
Emergency services are on their way to the crash site.
It is unknown how many people are on board or the extent of any injuries.
The crash has caused a grass fire along Twidales Road.

Light plane crashes west of Brisbane - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-03/light-plane-crashes-west-of-brisbane/4351200)

Update from Courier Mail

WITNESSES have told of seeing a light plane plunge into trees and explode after apparent engine failure on take-off near Helidon today.
The male pilot, who was a plane buff and well-known in the area, is believed to have died in the crash about 9.30am today.
"My husband was riding his horse on the arena. He saw it take off,'' a nearby resident told The Courier-Mail.
"It was going off to the right a little bit then the motor just cut out and it started spluttering.
"It sounded like the motor blew up then it just went down into the trees and there was a big explosion.
"We rang triple zero straight away but it was a big explosion so I don't think whoever was flying it would have had any chance.''
The plane was a P51 Mustang replica and had crashed near the Emu Gully airstrip near Helidon, only about 20m to 30m from Whylaway Boarding Kennels (http://www.whylaway.com.au/).

A triple zero call about 9.35am on Saturday reported a single-engine plane had crashed at Helidon, east of Toowoomba, the Department of Community Safety says.

It is believed the pilot was the only occupant and has died in the crash.
The plane had exploded on impact.
A man aged in his 30s suffered minor burns to his legs and smoke inhalation trying to assist the pilot.
The crash sparked a large grass fire which was brought under control by 11am

Very sad
RIP
Fly Safe
R W

[TBM-Legend]

One of the good guys is gone.

RIP Terry K.

[zac21]

RIP Terry
Another good guy gone,

Condolences to his family.

[BPA]

The crash occurred at the entrance to my aunties property. I was up at the Toowoomba airport open day when I heard. Apparently he was heading up the open day.

RIP

[VH-Cheer Up]

Aviation community in shock after deadly crash
Sat 03 Nov 12, 22:24pm AEST
The aviation community on Queensland's Darling Downs is in shock after a second deadly crash involving a replica plane in as many months. On Saturday 52-year-old Terry Kronk, a pilot with more than 15 years experience, was killed when his light plane crashed at Helidon Spa in the Lockyer Valley, west of Brisbane. Mr Kronk's replica mustang, which he built himself, came down seconds after taking off from the Emu Gully airstrip about 10am AEST. Witnesses rushed to the scene but were pushed back by flames. One 30-year-old man who tried to rescue the pilot suffered minor burns to his legs. The pilot was killed instantly, and is survived by his wife and two daughters. He was on his way to Toowoomba to show off his plane in an air show. Mr Kronk's friend Matt Handley says he was pro...

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Aviation community in shock after deadly crash - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/4351542)

[gileraguy]

particularly taken with the following paras:

Queensland Police Inspector Richard Kroon says it is too early to say what caused the crash.

"Police will be conducting an investigation covering all aspects including any possible mechanical malfunction of the aircraft," he said.

PTSB?

[VH-XXX]

Given the experimental nature of the aircraft they will likely be the only ones investigating, so yes, PTSB.

From the witness reports it has been told the redrive failed. Not the first time and won't be the last unfortunately. An automotive engine with a rubber drive as a gearbox doesn't cut the mustard in my books as a go anywhere reliable and safe aircraft.

[gileraguy]

XXX

I really should have known...

Hat,
Coat.

[VH-XXX]

Didn't mean for that to sound anything other than infomative gileraguy. Apologies if it didn't come across as such.

[captainavgas]

No need to apologise VHXXX, you were just stating the obvious.

[FarCu]

I think you will find the police investigate every fatal aviation accident as they are the ones that report to the Coroners Court.

[gileraguy]

XXX.

None taken, I should really use emoticons! (but I feel they are juvenile...)

The response was based on an old Motocross Magazine from the USA where the guy who solved mechanical issues used it in ALL his replies to readers questions:

"you really should have known"

So if it's an experimental category, there's no ATSB involvement?

What if it had a Lycoming engine? Would that still be the same procedure?

[VH-XXX]

There seems to be no precise formula for the involvement of the ATSB in experimental crashes and fatalities. One can assume it's to do with available resources at the time so what happens next is anyone's guess.

[gileraguy]

after checking out some redrives and some you tube footage of the aircraft I would say that is a highly stressed drive on that powerplant.

Most redrives I have found are rated at 200hp max.

Those belts last forever on a Harley final drive but that replica absolutely hammered...

[VH-XXX]

I read that it was scratch built, but was wondering if it was a commercially available kit? Hats off to anyone that could scratch build an aircraft like that from a pile of sheet metal.

[Sunfish]

The problem is that the red rive, engine and propellor may all be perfectly satisfactory on their own.........but when you put them together as a system there is the possibility of resonance even with certified aircraft.

[Jabawocky]

Sunnie,

That is true, however the most common problem with any toothed belt drive, and I have some considerable experience here using these in industrial application, is the alignment and hence belt tracking.

Unless the two shafts stay perfectly aligned the belt will track, often the pulleys have a flange either side, but I have seen many where alignment is such that the belt forces the flanges off the pulley.

I have no idea whether this is the item that caused the power loss, to the prop, but if so I would take a wild guess at tracking. Flexing of the mountings only needs to be minimal.

The concept of a few hundred HP at those RPMs is not uncommon for a Gates PolyChain or even the older HTD drive belts. The belts rarely give trouble, often in shocking conditions. But misalignment is another matter.

Who knows? Unless there was some prior history or tracking problems or otherwise, we will never know as the evidence is most likely destroyed.

RIP TK

[blackhand]

"It was going off to the right a little bit then the motor just cut out and it started spluttering.Sounds like an engine issue not a drive problem from that description

[Jabawocky]

And you believe in the tooth fairy?

I may be wrong......but since when do you believe eye witness reports unless well qualified ?

Inside info so far suggests otherwise......but until I have heard otherwise, the drive train is usually the issue.

[TBM-Legend]

For those who knew Terry, his funeral is on Friday, 16th Nov, at 10am at Hume Ridge Church of Christ, Toowoomba.

[601]

We are broke. ATSB will not investigate.

Probe too expensive for Lockyer Valley pilot Terry Kronk | Gatton Star (http://www.gattonstar.com.au/news/Lockyer-Valley-crash-terry-kronk/1611917/)

[27/09]

From the article linked above

The 52-year-old Toowoomba and Lockyer Valley identity appeared to be attempting to return to the Emu Gully airstrip when a mechanical failure sent the plane plummeting to earth.

Is it more likely the problem was the reason for the return and control of the aircraft was lost executing the return, perhaps attempting the "ïmpossible turn"?

Automotive engines haven't the best reliability in aircraft use and neither have gearboxes/reduction drives on engines with less than 9 cylinders been all that successful in aircraft. It sounds like this aircraft had both.

Two ag outfits over here each spent a kings ransom developing their own V8 engines (one a big block GM the other Ford) plus gearbox setups to replace the venerable IO720, In the end they gave up.

[VH-XXX]

Are there many aircraft compatible gearboxes out there for automotive engines? I know there are a few for Subarus but they look quite heavy.

[mcoates]

There are heaps of new gearboxes for auto engines every year.

Just go to Oshkosh each year and you will find a couple of new versions that are claimed can take you to the moon and back.

They are their the first year to try and sell their product, most don't come back a second year but if they do they don't make a third year.

A year after that we all talk about....

"do you all remember that Gearbox that used to be made for the car engine....., I wonder whatever happened to that......"

and, the cycle repeats itself.

[Jabawocky]

From what I understand there was not any attempt to turn back, there was nowhere else to go.

As for auto engine installations, the engines are not usually the problem odd as it seems, it is all the ancillary items including reduction drives etc.

Lycoming and TCM/CMI have that sorted, Rotax for the smaller sizes.

[Up-into-the-air]

From:

Probe too expensive for Lockyer Valley pilot Terry Kronk | Gatton Star (http://www.gattonstar.com.au/news/Lockyer-Valley-crash-terry-kronk/1611917/)

AS police investigations begin into the plane crash that claimed the life of Lockyer Valley identity Terry Kronk, Australia's peak transport investigation authority says it cannot afford to look into the incident.
An Air Transport Safety Board (ATSB) spokesman said it could only investigate a "finite" number of incidents each year, and it will not be investigating the Helidon crash.

"In this instance, because it is amateur-built, it helped to inform our decision," the spokesman said.
Mr Kronk died when his replica P51 Mustang, classed as an "experimental" aircraft, crashed into the ground soon after take-off.

The Queensland Police Service Forensic Crash Unit is conducting investigations to prepare a report for the coroner on the crash of the experimental Mustang P51 replica, which crashed on take-off from the Emu Gully airstrip at 9.25am on Saturday.

The 52-year-old Toowoomba and Lockyer Valley identity appeared to be attempting to return to the Emu Gully airstrip when a mechanical failure sent the plane plummeting to earth.

Close family friend and spokesman for the Kronk family Mark Freeman paid tribute to his long-time friend and expressed shock at his untimely death. "It was all a huge shock and we are all a bit numb," Mr Freeman said.
"He was passionate about aviation and was a great pilot who loved flying.
"He flew every week."

An Air Transport Safety Bureau spokesman said the ATSB had ruled out any investigations into the accident due to budget constraints.


Well atsb??

Didn't you say at the Senate hearing that you still had funds at the end of the year???

[Flying Binghi]

.


Up-into-the-air,what do you want the ATSB to find... ?




.

[rocket66]

Dunno, probably a cause to the accident that may prevent similar deaths in the future? Regardless of category, if an aircraft crashes and takes a life it should be investigated. Bet Terrys family is halpy about the accident being overloomed simply because a government organisation has no money. What a crock of **** suppose the fat cats have to pay for the xmas ball somehow!

Rocket

[Flying Binghi]

Dunno, probably a cause to the accident that may prevent similar deaths in the future? Regardless of category, if an aircraft crashes and takes a life it should be investigated. Bet Terrys family is happy about the accident being overlooked simply because a government organisation has no money. What a crock of **** suppose the fat cats have to pay for the xmas ball somehow!

Rocket


...the accident being overlooked...

rocket66, i dont think the accident is being "overlooked" as such. The crash aircraft was a new build 'one off' experimental design based on a WW2 mustang fighter.

referance -"...prevent similar..." There is little about a single build aircraft that could be compared to any other aircraft. Hence there are no other 'like' type aircraft for the ATSB to be concerned about.





.

[rocket66]

That is correct, however not so long ago a replica spitfire crashed near Gympie with a similar if not the same engine. Its also quite possible that there are others quietly putting together something similar in their garage at home.

Its unlikely the crash was caused by the airframe. Thousands of mustangs were built during the second world war and just because this one was 80% scale really wouldnt change anything.

rocket

[le Pingouin]

Rocket, it's not being overlooked on an individual basis but because, as Binghi points out, it's the single example of type, it's amateur built and experimental. In the end it comes down to how many lives are at risk.

Contrary to what you seem to believe there is no bottomless bucket of money . Or would you enjoy paying more tax/fees? It costs as much to investigate one crash as another so which gets priority? The one where many lives are at risk.

[baron_beeza]

Its unlikely the crash was caused by the airframe. Thousands of mustangs were built during the second world war and just because this one was 80% scale really wouldnt change anything.


Ummmm.... :hmm:

[VH-XXX]

It costs as much to investigate one crash as another

Not quite!

[j3pipercub]

Experimental, non certified aircraft, with a big 'Experimental' sign displayed prominently somewhere. Whilst I feel for the family, there is a higher amount of risk involved when flying this type of aircraft. You should be aware of this when you fly one/in one.

Rocket, did you know the pilot? I ask as there seems to be quite a bit of emotion behind your posts

j3

[601]

government organisation has no money

The ATSB should have heaps of money, only a few months into the budget year.

[Frank Arouet]

I'm not taking any particular side here but, ATSB made a bug fuss in The Senate about having cash then stating they have no cash. Perhaps they may explain to the Senators next sittings exactly what the position WRT cash is?

Tax increases aside, there seems to be a move of recent to foist these matters onto QLD Police for investigation. I refer Hemple, The Imbil Dragon and now this.

Queenslanders are taxpayers as well, and it's probably OK for them to ask why an aviation investigation body is not capable or willing to do an investigation, (if only for the Coroner), but they are prepared to spend QLD time, effort and money and take the Police away from other meaningful tasks.

[Up-into-the-air]

.........and atsb "has" the qualifications in one place that can deal with these matters.

It went on to investigate and assist in the Goulburn Sting fatalities, for which a coroners report is still to issue.

[scrufflefish]

"Automotive engines haven't the best reliability in aircraft use and neither have gearboxes/reduction drives on engines with less than 9 cylinders been all that successful in aircraft. It sounds like this aircraft had both.

Two ag outfits over here each spent a kings ransom developing their own V8 engines (one a big block GM the other Ford) plus gearbox setups to replace the venerable IO720, In the end they gave up."

On the other hand, there's a very successful liquid cooled V8 Pawnee operating as a glider tug in Vic with a belt PSRU, which has been doing fast turnarounds at relatively low running cost for a number of years.

[le Pingouin]

I don't mean the overall cost but a similar investigation will cost a similar amount - better to spend the $$$s on investigating a 172 going in off the end of the runway.

[rocket66]

j3 I never knew the pilot but just feel for his kids and wife especially at this time of year. Its stupid to say it shouldnt be investigated just because its an only type. The freakin Titanic was an only build but Ill bet my license people who build ships learnt a lot out of that.

I dont know if its just a string of bad luck but there has been quite a few accidents involving fatalites lately.

Rocket

[601]

Just a simple question.

Do ATSB still have personnel in Brisbane or anywhere outside Canberra?
We used to get a briefing every 3 months from the BASI at the AF CP/CFI meetings.

Ahh the old days when we actually could talk to a DCA/DOT/CAA/CASA, ASA, BoM or BASI/ATSB person.

[Jabawocky]

One at Kingaroy also.

But these seem to be the exceptions not the rule.

Usually it is not the engine that has a mechanical failure, but the ancilliary items be they MAP sensors, fuel delivery, PSRU's etc.

I like my Lycoming, and it gives better MPG for the same speed than any auto conversion will. This has been argued to death many times here but the 50-70 year old technology is still unbeatable.

[le Pingouin]

The "freakin Titanic"? I seem to recall it wasn't an amateur built trailer sailer with a complement of one.

And for the record there were three: Titanic, Olympic and Britannic.

[baron_beeza]

Regarding the possible investigation. It was a media report that suggested the ATSB had insufficient funds, I doubt that is the reason.

We have to appreciate that there is a power of difference between the operation of a Type Certified machine and an Experimental.

One has a Type Certificate holder that is responsible for the ICA's and continued airworthiness of their product.
We have Maint Manuals, IPC's, SB's, SL's and SI's all updated and providing data to all owners and maintainers. On top of them we have a regulatory structure with international AD's etc being raised and monitored.

Within this we have an obligation for a defect reporting structure with SDR's and MDR's and the like.
We have a proven system and often data gained from an accident investigation and the recommendations can be incorporated into the structure.

Against this what is there ?
The operation of a microlight or experimental is very much a case of you get what you pay for.

I have close connections to a fatal accident of a Sky Arrow a few years ago. The report has just been released and even though it was a fatigue failure of a critical elevator part there was little substance in the recommendations.

www.caa.govt.nz/Accidents_and_Incidents/Accident_Reports/ZK_SKA_Fatal.pdf

Had the same item failed in a certified machine there would have been a whole machine swing into action much as we saw with the Beechcraft cable issues.

The Sky Arrow report took almost 3 years to prepare and was unfortunately lacking substance and appears to have achieved little.

I did a Google on 'Sky Arrow elevator control failure'....... not much of a ripple through owners and operators that I could see.

Is there any chance a detailed investigation and subsequent report into any 'Experimental' mishap would achieve as much coverage as a certified type.

[KeepItStraight]

I have close connections to a fatal accident of a Sky Arrow a few years ago. The report has just been released and even though it was a fatigue failure of a critical elevator part there was little substance in the recommendations.

http://www.caa.govt.nz/Accidents_and..._SKA_Fatal.pdf

Had the same item failed in a certified machine there would have been a whole machine swing into action much as we saw with the Beechcraft cable issues.

The Sky Arrow report took almost 3 years to prepare and was unfortunately lacking substance and appears to have achieved little.

I did a Google on 'Sky Arrow elevator control failure'....... not much of a ripple through owners and operators that I could see.

Is there any chance a detailed investigation and subsequent report into any 'Experimental' mishap would achieve as much coverage as a certified type.

I'm not surprised in the slightest. I had involvement with a kit experimental aircraft a couple of years ago. I felt some things about the aircraft were potentially dangerous and I made some adverse comments about those aspects of the aircraft (design and handling) in my report, a copy of which went to the CAA Sport & Recreational unit. I expected follow up from them, never heard a thing.

I found out later there had been fatal accidents overseas in this aircraft type which related directly to my concerns. My report was sent and added to the reports of the overseas incidents, not by the CAA but by the aircraft owner.

[rocket66]

I think you'll find there were differences with the three White Star Line ships, the point I was trying to make was that after the titanic disaster refinements were made to other ships even though they were different. I suppose what Im trying to say is knowledge is power. While this aircraft was a one of a kind the engine, which is assumed to be the reason for the crash, may be used in other aircraft. With the cost of GA contnuiously rising people are turning to RA aircraft to get that fix of freedom we all enjoy and perhaps any fajlt with an engine like this one needs to be discovered to prevent future deaths.

[Flying Binghi]

.


via rocket66;

...just because this one was 80% scale really wouldnt change anything...

...The freakin Titanic was an only build...

...people are turning to RA aircraft to get that fix of freedom we all enjoy and perhaps any fault with an engine like this one needs to be discovered to prevent future deaths...




Hmmm... seems like a wind-up to me..:hmm:




.

[Up-into-the-air]

Just a clip from the atsb web site:

Fatal accidents not investigated:

The ATSB's justification for electing not to investigate a notifiable fatal accident will be documented in the database record for that occurrence.

Not to learn or promulgate safety problems.

Senator Heffernan no doubt will ask the atsb and Mr. Dolan further questions next Monday and Wednesday in the Senate hearing. It is better to be there, rather than watch!!

19 November 2012

Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee
Contact: Stephen Palethorpe (02) 6277 3510
Aviation accident investigations
CANBERRA: Committee Room 2S1, Parliament House, 10.00am - 12.00pm

21 November 2012

Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee
Contact: Stephen Palethorpe (02) 6277 3510
Aviation accident investigations
CANBERRA: Committee Room 2S1, Parliament House, 4.00pm - 6.30pm

Be there

If you can't the APH site as follows gives the options:

Watch Parliament – Parliament of Australia (http://aph.gov.au/News_and_Events/Watch_Parliament)

[27/09]

I don't know about OZ but the focus for TAIC (the NZ equivalent of the ATSB) is to investigate accidents where fare paying pax are involved whether or not there's any injury or death. I rather suspect the same happens in OZ.

This doesn't mean that all other accidents don't get investigated over here because the CAA do pick up accidents where a fatality is involved plus others they deem necessary.

Thinking out loud now, I wonder that it's not time for the likes of the SAA (Sport Aircraft Association) here in NZ and the OZ equivalent to become actively involved in investigating the sport aircraft accidents. They (their members) have a vested interest in knowing the causes plus they have a vast amount of expertise within their ranks which can be put to good use in finding accident causes.

[ozbiggles]

If you think there are bucket loads of money around I draw your attention to the national debt level.
You haven't noticed all the cuts going on around you? Unless of course you receive welfare and vote Labor.
Can't imagine the ATSB would be any different, particularly considering how important aviation matters are to governments.